Impatience Of Fans

February 22nd, 2018

Unfairly targeted.

No truer words were ever spoken. Sometimes, however, those same words can haunt the person who uttered them.

The NFL in particular, and sports in general, was summed up in one sentence in 2015. In 12 words, from then-Bucs offensive coordinator Dirk Koetter.

Joe was at the press conference when Koetter spoke the following words. The subject matter is unimportant and long-forgotten. Koetter’s words still ring in Joe’s ears.

“All that anyone gives a sh*t in this league about is Ws.”

Since, Joe has spoken with NFL owners, general managers, coaches, scouts, players, NFL media brethren, you name it. Not one person has suggested Koetter was even remotely inaccurate.

In fact, whenever Joe repeats that to folks in and around the NFL, the most common response is, “He’s right.”

And those words, though true, are what fuels the Jameis haters who crawl among Bucs fandom.

Forget that America’s Quarterback, Pro Bowler Jameis Winston, is the best quarterback this franchise has ever had. Never mind that he is breaking NFL passing records. Jameis’ win-loss record is Vinny Testeverde-like. For that reason, a loud sect of Bucs fans want the Bucs to get rid of Jameis.

Take this “Rocket” guy from Texas who called “Movin’ the Chains” this week, co-hosted by Pat Kirwan and Jim Miller, enjoyed exclusively by smart football fans on SiriusXM NFL Radio.

“Rocket” is done with Jameis. So he asked Kirwan and Miller about what the Bucs could get in draft picks if they were to shop Jameis. In other words, the only thing “Rocket” gives a sh!t about are wins and Jameis is not a winner after watching him for three seasons.

“What do you think Jameis Winston’s value is?” Rocket asked. “I don’t think he can get me [to the playoffs]. So I’m willing to trade him.”

And, depressingly, both Kirwan and Miller are down on Jameis, like seemingly quite a few NFL types are.

“If I was a team looking for a quarterback, I would not want to give my first round pick for him,” Kirwan said. “I’d take my chances with the other guys coming up [in the draft].”

“That’s what I figured,” “Rocket” responded, and noted Team Glazer should be “confused” with Jameis.

Now Kirwan, who Joe likes a great deal and respects equally, claims he is not down on Jameis but in recent weeks, his words suggest otherwise.

“It is not clear any more who he is,” Kirwan added of Jameis.

Joe can tell folks who Jameis is: He is the quarterback who is snapping NFL passing records. He is the quarterback who played like a No. 1 overall pick last December. He’s the quarterback who drove the Bucs 95-yards with no timeouts with less than two minutes left to beat the NFC South champion Saints.

Does Jameis need to cut down on fumbles? Hell yeah, but if that is one’s criteria for a quarterback, go sign some Division I-AA fullback for a quarterback who won’t fumble.

Fumbles can be coached out of a guy (remember when Mike Alsott was a walking fumble?).

It wasn’t Jameis’ fault last year when Mike Smith’s defense — which was so horrid it made an otherwise reasonable, sober Bucs fan want to slap someone in public — gave up game-tying or game-winning drives late in the fourth quarter to the Packers (Brent Hundley!!!), to the Bills (Tyrod Taylor, three-plays, 75-yards — Tyrod Taylor!!!) and the Stinking Panthers (sexual deviate Swaggy!)? Those choked away games would have otherwise meant at least an 8-8 season.

Was it Jameis’ fault he couldn’t kick field goals against the Belicheats (knee surgery-needing Nick Folk!!!)?

(Column intermission: Let that sink in for a moment. The Bucs were relying on a kicker who needed knee surgery. You can’t make this s(p)it up!)

This groundswell of folks wanting to run Jameis out of town is just mind-numbing. Does he need to play better? Of course. Is his leadership overblown? Evidence from last season suggests yes.

But to toss a quarterback overboard for fumbles and having a hurt throwing shoulder when he otherwise is dicing up the NFL just totally blows Joe’s mind. If this franchise runs off the best QB in team history after but three seasons because this organization cannot develop or acquire a decent edge rush or a kicker, well, then the Bucs deserve every bad thing that would happen in the wake of such a moronic transaction.

But, as Koetter famously said, “All that anyone gives a sh*t in this league about is Ws.”

In other words, a team and/or its fanbase that wants to run off a quarterback like Jameis after only three NFL seasons deserves Mike Glennon.

160 Responses to “Impatience Of Fans”

  1. tmaxcon Says:

    so jameis a 23 year old qb gets blame for a franchise that has failed 41 out of 42 years and has NEVER contended outside of grudens one hit wonder. sound logic

  2. tmaxcon Says:

    if bucs spent the last decade building a nfl caliber football team versus focusing all these fraudulent choirboy quitters led by mccoy maybe there would be hope. bucs organization focuses on everything that does not matter and completely ignores Talent the ONLY factor that matters.

  3. Jolly Bucs Fan Says:

    8-8 if the defense could have held onto a stinking lead – 9-7, maybe 10-6 (think late panthers game) if we had a solid kicker. and who knows how better if we had a run game (what run game?)

    Dumping jameis would be the worst decision this franchise makes since hugh culverhouse screwed over bo jackson

  4. webster Says:

    This is probably the best article ever written on jbf

  5. Eric Says:

    Jameis has every chance to get himself to elite, and a lot of points made by Joe here are true. That last month of the season was some really good QB play.

    But, overall he did continue with the bone headed turnovers way too often for his third year.

    That pains me to say as I am a huge fan of his, but he just has got to find the way to stop doing that. I think he will.

  6. Guzziep Says:

    Looks so easy to fix the problems on our team, DL, RB, OL, CB, K all need improvements, and will be addressed, but it’s the coaching that will doom this team, 6-10 7-9 season I’m predicting, only because of Jameis and talent brought in by Licht, how many games would the Bucs have won with quality coaching instead of old fats that are coaching like it’s 2008

  7. Guzziep Says:

    We missed out on some talented coaches this offseason

  8. Jolly Bucs Fan Says:

    –edit to my post–

    my bad Counted the late panthers game twice, 1 for the defense giving away the game and 1 for the kicker,

    still we are talking at least 9-7 if we had signed Murray b4 the Pats game, and if the defense, WASNT EVEN GOOD but just good enough to hold onto a late lead.

  9. cgmaster Says:

    Well if he does go else where, he’ll succeed and the rest of us will laugh at those clowns who want to run this guy out of town. While there’s no doubt he needs to work on the TO’s, his INT % was actually down last year, but the fumbles need fixed. As for Kirwin, to suggest you take one of these rookies, who are all average at best by the way, over Jameis, is just showing massive waves of stupidity.

  10. Buc4lyfe79 Says:

    GOD help me…tmax just made soo much sense, I absolutely agree with him…well, his 1:03pm post anyway.

  11. DBS Says:

    Your excuses don’t work tmax. W-L record and you set the bar. Don’t try to wiggle out of it now. After all you are alway right. And right now Winston is a LOSER!

  12. Kalind Says:

    Agreed Webster. These anti Jameis clowns can’t stand good. They want greatness from a 23 year old qb with no running game and a wounded Kline, and injured shoulder. I swear….think about what Jameis could be like at 38-29 years old if he’s playing like this now. And you want to trade him? For who? Some schmo from UCLA? Gimme a break.

  13. tmaxcon Says:


    i am always right and I have always stated the bucs organization can turn winners into losers faster than ice cream can melt on a hot summer day…. The entire bucs organization from top to bottom are losers NOT jameis fault. the glazers failures have made Cleveland look competent especially after Cleveland d Hangs 50 pts on cancer93 and his girls.

    Jamesi is the best player outside of Sapp and Selelmon to every wear a buc uniform and the organization will waste him just like dungy the clown wasted whyce’s defense.

  14. AlteredEgo Says:

    “This groundswell of folks wanting to run Jameis out of town is just mind-numbing. Does he need to play better? Of course. Is his leadership overblown? Evidence from last season suggests yes.

    But to toss a quarterback overboard for fumbles and having a hurt throwing shoulder when he otherwise is dicing up the NFL just totally blows Joe’s mind”

    don’t confuse criticism of Jameis as wanting Jameis out….the criticism is real and accurate as opposed to the whistling past the graveyard in Joes endless articles of # 3’s percentage this and comparing passing records to the days of the NFL when it is decades of run run dink pass for 1st downs

  15. Duke Says:


    I bet that the number of “bone headed” plays would reduce if the offense wasn’t always playing from behind and/or actually trusted the defense and special teams to make plays, stop something , make a FG .

    I look at JW’s first year as a Nole vs His second. Yr 2 He was attempting to carry His team and He was turnover prone. Year 1 He didn’t have to try so hard because the team was better. Look at the numbers He wasn’t turning the ball over on desperation plays.

    I think it’s an inverse relationship with Him between ball security and how good the team is. Bad team = more BH plays. Good team = less BH plays.

  16. DBS Says:

    No tmax
    He is labeled Loser. You set that bar. All W-L are on the QB no excuses! Now you want to wiggle out of it. And Blame everybody else. Now own up to it!

  17. tmaxcon Says:


    clearly you are too simple to realize the obvious facts that ever player that comes to tampa regresses. it’s a failure by the organization not jameis.

    this franchise has been 100% incompetent since well before jameis was born

  18. 813bucboi Says:

    Winston=the least of our problem!!!!!!!!!

    #NOEXCUSESIN2018!!!!!….GO BUCS!!!!!

  19. Mike Johnson Says:

    I don’t think Buc fans are down on Jameis. They..We..are down on Losing and the organizations selection of leaders. Especially in the front office and coaching staff. No playoff appearances since…. I mean yr after yr, teams like the Pats..could give less than a deeyham about a 1st rounder. They even trade them to go for lower rd picks.And they win with them. Not us, we are worried about who to pick in the 1st. jameis has learned all Koetter has to teach him. Time to move on. I’m not feeling this Buc organizational commitment to excellence and winning. Retread coaches and promises. The one thing I luv about this upcoming season? Koetter has to win or he is gone. Bucs probably should have parted ways this yr. But we shall see.

  20. Lord Cornelius Says:


    Brees is a loser then. A HOF QB. 1-3 on his L:W for the seasons. Winstons 1-2.

    Dumb as all f*ck.

    “If this franchise runs off the best QB in team history after but three seasons because this organization cannot develop or acquire a decent edge rush or a kicker, well, then the Bucs deserve every bad thing that would happen in the wake of such a moronic transaction.”

    Joe nails it with this article.

    Defense/Kicker alone prevented another winning season with 4-5 blown games in which Winston did everything needed to win and was clutch as f*ck at the end.

    Oh and he was f*cking injured but make sure on one in the media makes a deal of it. Andrew Luck was injured in 2015 and played like sh1t and no one was saying any of this sh1t. Winston has been hated ever since ESPN’s and other outlet’s sh1t job of reporting/spinning the FSU stories.

  21. Lord Cornelius Says:

    On his W:L for the past 4 seasons I meant regarding Brees**

    What a f*cking loser!

  22. DBS Says:

    That’s what I thought tmax. You will not admit when you are wrong. I could go back and show when you made that rule but I won’t. Just remember. Now you are saying the Organization makes EVERY player regress!!

  23. DB55 Says:


    They don’t even deserve Glennon. Let they roll with Ryan Griffin he’s everything they love and respect.

  24. tmaxcon Says:

    Mike Johnson

    I’m not feeling this Buc organizational commitment to excellence and winning.

    that is exactly the same way any sane person should feel. glazers have PROVEN beyond a shadow of a doubt tha they careless about the on filed product. Instead of justifying failures fans should be ENRAGED and blowing up every talk show, blog and phone bank at ONE BUC CIRCUS TENT with demands for improvement.

    the glazers are actually brilliant at raising false hope.

    if I may be so bold to use one of Realists lines but the SHEEP need to rise up

  25. DBS Says:

    If you had a brain you would understand the conversation. You were here back then when he was talking all is crap.

  26. DBS Says:


  27. tmaxcon Says:


    I don’t speak crap, you speak crap I speak the truth but you can’t handle the truth…. jameis will go down as the most important and greatest buc of all time. Not like the bar is set high… Sapp and Selmon were great.

  28. Joe Says:

    Thank you Webster!

  29. Dewey Selmon Says:

    I have patience for on the field Jameis, but off the field Jameis is on thin ice and Darby might be the only one to save him.

  30. Evolvingbucfan Says:

    When “people” are down on Jamies or turning on him all they see is his 3 blow up moments from this season, W-eating before a horrid game, finger poking when getting beat badly, and finally going ballistic of a fumble call, oh and then comes the news of alleged crotch grabbing which at this point is merely hear-say. His maturity is questionable sometimes but i do think he is the best quarterback solution we have or have had in a long time and i didn’t like the pick when we got him but his upside far out ways his downsides in my eyes…. only IF he can fix his rash and sometimes questionable descisions and protect the ball. If he can fix that he should do just fine.

  31. D-Rome Says:

    I said it yesterday and I’ll say it again. If Jameis doesn’t succeed in 2018 it will be an organizational failure. He plays the most dependent position on the field and requires the other 21 players on offense and defense doing their jobs effectively.

  32. SteveK Says:

    Lord Corn,

    I understand your defense of Jameis, but Brees is a champion, studs!

    Jameis ain’t there yet, but he is promising. I hope he doesn’t get suspended.

  33. ndog Says:

    The crazy thing is this is not these clueless Bucs fans saying this there are NFL lifers saying this stuff. I mean me all know they never pay any attention to us so they are just reading the headlines, which are of course going to be negative cause everyone is rooting for him to fail to say I told you so, and forming an opinion based upon that. Like for instance he played about as well as a QB could play against both Buffalo and Atlanta last year and we lost both games. I mean all of the other games sure put it on him but really those two games as a prime example there is nothing in either one of those games he could have done any better and we still lost. Then in the Patriots game Jameis threw for 334 yards and 1 TD with no picks (no fumbles) and Brady (the league MVP) threw for 303 yards 1 TD and 1 pick and we lose. What is the guy supposed to do play absolutely perfect? BTW those are three playoff teams he had beat if it wasn’t for the rest of the horrible team.

  34. tmaxcon Says:

    Dewey Selmon

    serious question… What has jameis done off the field to warrant concern from any rational or sane person…. Obviously, the uber incident is BS and just another attempted cash grab from the first liars attorney and aunt.

    Jameis has been a model citizen and teammate in tampa. his w eating speech was awkward but no worse that BS pre game speech cancer93 gave prior that is now being used for viagra overdoses and to treat sexual predators.

  35. MTM Says:

    Winston ate a lot of the Bucs W’s this year with all the fumbling, picks and just stupid mistakes.

  36. LakeLand Says:

    All the Bucs brass and fans care about is, Jameis Winston setting passing records. The losing record means nothing to them.

    42 years of hell

  37. Dewey Selmon Says:

    tmaxcom, Jameis is an asset to the community and does wonderful things, i think he is an amazing young man who is soon to be an amazing father. My post wasn’t a personal attack, but you know how society tears everything down nowadays. There will be a media/social media firestorm if Jamies didn’t keep his hands to himself. We are in a #metoo phase of life and this isn’t a good time(as if ever) to have this bubble up to the surface this offseason.

  38. LifeOfABucFan Says:

    Tmax..Jameis is already 24..when the season begins he’ll be closer to 25 then 24..

  39. LifeOfABucFan Says:

    I will say it..I do not think Jameis should stay a Buc if he doesn’t produce wins…I don’t give a hoot about passing yards..that doesn’t mean an automatic win..

    I would draft a QB in the 4th round..

  40. firethecannons Says:

    Answer=Quentin Nelson

  41. BrianBucs Says:

    As I stated before, Jameis has the Bucs in a bad situation. He possibly has too much potential to move away from, but at the same time he has not proven that he can be/is a true franchise QB.
    Licht did a major sales job on the Glazers to draft Winston #1 And try to make him the face of the franchise ANF he staked his job and reputation on it, so as long as Licht is the GM here Winton will be the starting QB. However, if Licht gets fired and a new regime comes in with no ties to Winston, he may find himself playing for another team.
    The Bucs have no choice but to pick up Winston’s 5th year option to give him one more year to see if he can prove that he is the man here. Then the Bucs will have to decide if it’s time to fish or cut bait with Winston. And if the League suspends him for being America’s Crotchgrabber, then that opens up another huge can of worms

  42. tmaxcon Says:


    thank you ma’am for the correction. still the same post applies

  43. tmaxcon Says:


    jameis would have no problem producing wins if his soft arse defense led by cancer93 did not give up leads and quit in 4th qtrs

  44. Eric Says:


    Good points and it is shared by the team as hes trying to make things happen.

    That being said he did throw into coverage too much and fumbled due to not throwing it away or taking the sack.

    Id like to see last part of the season Jameis for the whole year, or second half vs. Auburn Jameis.

    I know he is capable.

  45. tmaxcon Says:

    Dewey Selmon

    well said sir. they need to start prosecuting the meetoo liars…. i find it very troubling that all these men are getting accused of things 10, 20 and 30 years ago, losing their careers with NO EVIDENCE nor any legal proceeding. Very very few of the meetoo complaints have resulted in charges. pretty hard to take it so seriously

  46. NFLNut Says:



    You are a loon … QBs do NOT produce wins, TEAMS produce wins. Tyrod Taylor, Keenum, Bortles and Mariota were all in the playoffs last year while far superior QBs in Stafford, Russell Wilson, Jameis and Philip Rivers were not.

    Marino, Moon, Kelly and Tarkenton never won a single ring while Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Jeff Hostettler did.

    Jameis was not drafted to a team one year removed from a conference title gamelike Andrew Luck was, or a team that made the playoffs the year before like Deshaun Watson was … he was drafted to a 2-14 laughing stock and helped turn them into a winning, 9-7 team within 2 years … and last year he set career bests in basically every statistical category … you are a LOON!


  47. NFLNut Says:


    Anyone that is down on Jameis after he just set career bests in nearly every statistical category despite playing half the year with an injured throwing shoulder and the entire year with almost non-existent support from the running game is … STUPID … and as a wise man once said, “you can’t argue with stupid”.


  48. tmaxcon Says:

    Jameis has produced MORE offense in 3 years by himself than dungy the clowns offenses produced in 6 years..

  49. Lord Cornelius Says:

    You’d have to think that Gerald McCoy knows the name ‘tmaxcon’ by now after all these years lol

  50. tmaxcon Says:

    Lord Cornelius

    probably not he spends too much time in the basement with his dolls to care about anything else.

  51. Bucsfanman Says:

    Jameis needs to improve. The TEAM needs to improve. The coaching needs to improve.
    There is not a single player on this football team that doesn’t need the work. Records don’t win games. While admirable, Jameis is the QB on a LOSING football team, until he is not.

  52. Duke Says:


    I think we’d all like to see that.

    I think that had JW gone to a team that had veteran’s in leadership positions He would be further along. An example of how it works would be, a vet rb chews his behind for not checking the ball down to him instead of taking a bad shot down field. Or a linemen telling him that he has to be quicker and not hold the ball so long. This is the way it works for a team with a young QB and experienced players who have established themselves with the team. JW has not had that opportunity to learn .

    If the team can run the ball JW is going to have a great season. Not avg, but great. At this point He’s seen enough to really take advantage of the opportunities that a running game provides.

  53. ndog Says:

    LifeOfABucFan, one simple question, I would really like you to answer it. Do you truly expect any QB to actually win games with the 32nd ranked defense, 23rd ranked running game and 28th ranked FG%?

  54. unbelievable Says:

    Who are all the choir boys you speak of tmax?

    Please try to name 1 besides GMC. I’ll bet that you can’t…

  55. doctor_berto Says:

    Jameis is the only reason i can’t stand watching the bucs

  56. ManzielMadness Says:

    Jameis is not the problem. Agree with Joe, he’s already the best QB we’ve ever had, if half the team had the same passion to win we’d have won a lot more games last year. And if the defense stops blowing 4th quarter leads we’ll be much improved next year.

  57. ManzielMadness Says:


    Jameis has always been exciting to watch, even in college (pains me to admit as I’m a gator fan lol). He plays to win. doesn’t sit there and check it down every friggin play like Glennon.

  58. NFLNut Says:

    By the way … to the LOON that said Jameis is closer to 25 than 24, um, no … Jameis will still be 24 years old when the NEXT REGULAR SEASON ends … he won’t turn 25 until the 2019 playoffs.

    And yeah, Jameis is the ONLY reason I watch the Bucs … outside of Jameis they are entirely irrelevant …

  59. Jarod lauderdale Says:

    First off to tmax , you are forgetting 1999 & ’79 as far as great season’s in bucs lore. But still to many head scratches so I get the point you are trying to make here. Fact is jameis is a loser, in the W -L anyway… I like jameis and I see a really good QB about to turn the corner! This kid is young as hell and has now 3 years under his belt and you can win in this league with lesser talent! I’ll take jameis all day and if we put him in a better position to win, then the w’s will come.

  60. SteveK Says:


    I am only “down” on Jameis IF he is suspended next year, as it would likely put a fork in our season and we’d be toast.

    That would be my only reason to be pissed of at Jameis. Football is the ultimate team game, and if the Bucs are going to go to the playoffs it will be with Jameis Winston under center.

    It would be heartbreaking for Bucs fans to have to endure another weird start to next season, after the lack of bye week and hurricane last year.

    We need a bye week, and we need our QB to be eligible to play 16 games barring injury. We can’t afford for a suspension to occure.

  61. Rod Munch Says:

    You forgot the Falcons game, that was on the defense as well as the kicker. Well actually it was on Dirk being a coward and punting it from the Falcons 43 yard line on like 4th and 3 when the defense was completely spent. In the game thread from that day I said the Bucs have to go for it here, you turn the ball over the Falcons get a TD, and sure enough that’s exactly what happened. Note that the Philly coach in the Super Bowl did not coach like a coward it’s the only reason they won.

    Dirk playing for FGs and punting from the opponents 40 all the time is the mark of a cowardly coach. Winston, sick of being stranglehold by Dirk’s cowardly coaching decided to ignore him at the end of the NO game and went for the TD, not the FG as Dirk told him to do. That’s what Jameis has to do, tune out the cowardly coaching of Dirk and play to win the game.

  62. SteveK Says:


    In your expert opinion, does Jameis get suspended?

    If so, he ain’t breaking the bank, and if he does there will be wording in his contract to insure the Bucs of anything off the field that effects his availability for games.

  63. Nick2 Says:

    Well since every Sunday other fans of victorious teams are elated while Buc fans are miserable what else should we judge performance on. Its great that in the NFL thats all that matters. In other professions success is muddied with different measurables but in the NFL there is just one. Al Davis said it best “just win baby”. So if Koetter wants a place where winning doesnt matter he can go down a few notches to kids stick ball where they give “participation” trophies. Otherwise put on your big boy pants and win a freakin game Dirk. Uh oh winning??? Licht can wince at the expectation once again!!!!!!!

  64. ben Says:

    nfl Jameis a good bud ,neighbor or ,family to you. ?? Jamies is an average qb and nothing more(so far) _even with all the weapons!

  65. Rod Munch Says:

    Also didn’t mention the Vikings game – by the third time the Bucs had the ball Winston was already down 21 points. Anyone that thinks Winston is a problem is just a dummy that doesn’t have an opinion worth hearing.

  66. LakeLand Says:

    In Lakeland we don’t focus on records or stats. It’s all about the wins, and nothing else. It don’t matter how you win, just win. You win as a team and you lose as a team. If the team isn’t winning, people will be replaced.

  67. BucfaninPhoenix Says:

    Soundly speaking any impatience by the fans is justified! Tony Robbins would have a challenge to find something positive and uplifting about being a Buc fan. A coaching staff that is mediocre at best, owners more concerned with their soccer team, players let go who turn into contributers and stars elsewhere, numerous failed draft choices, failed F/A players, need I go on? So YEAH Bucs fans have every right to be impatient.

  68. Rod Munch Says:

    If you think only wins matter then you literally believe that Joe Flacco (102 wins since 2008) is a better QB than Matt Ryan (99 wins since 2008). LOL! What a dope you must feel like.

    Also you clearly must think Trent Dilfer (1 SB) is much better than Dan Marino (0 SB).

    People who think QBs are solely responsible for wins and losses are what you call simpletons – and very very boring simpletons at that.

  69. ben Says:

    Joe .. You don’t think Brad Johnson was a better qb or J.Freeman for 1 year . The bucs have not had great qb’s in their history and Winston is NOT close to being there yet!

  70. LakeLand Says:

    I don’t care who the QB is, I don’t give 2 cents about who the Head Coach is. The only thing sensible fans care about is wins. It don’t matter if they win with Jameis Winston or Mike Glennon at QB….Just win, but the word “win” don’t exist in the Bucs vocabulary. But they love to toss around words like…youngest QB to throw for 4,000 yards….the 4th best passing offense in the NFL. But guess what, that don’t mean a damn thing in January. When they be at home, other teams are still playing.

  71. Nick2 Says:

    Until we get a damn running game no quarterback will take us to a 10 win season so keep jumping on Jameis and but you can blame Licht, Koetter, Doug Matrtin and Jeremy (I cant read a playbook) McNhichols. The defense knew we were one dimensional all year. Oh yeah dont blame Peyton Barber its not his fault Koetter stuck with a loser.

  72. Rod Munch Says:

    LakeLand – So you bought all in with Jon Gruden’s bring in every 35 year old vet plan because we have to win right now and never build towards anything… and hated the Rich McKay model of building a winner through the draft.

    You can not win every single year and you must build towards something, the only question is if you’re on the right track or not. If you actually believe in what you’re saying then the Bucs should trade away their entire draft each year for whatever they can get because they have to win right now.

    That’s nonsense.

  73. LakeLand Says:

    And the same fans that’s saying, it’s not Jameis fault for a weak defense and no running game. Are the same fans that say Jason Licht is doing an outstanding job. And Dirk Koetter and Mike Smith deserves another year.

    Who is the problem?

  74. LakeLand Says:

    Rod Munch

    Jason Licht has had 4 years to get this team on track. It didn’t Rich Mckay this long. The Bucs were in the playoffs in their 3rd season with McKay.

  75. tmaxcon Says:

    Rod Munch

    Wins are all thar matter until the object of game is changed to BS and feel good stories… flacco has a super bowl and Ryan has not accomplished one thing in his mediocre nfl career and has replaced manning as the poster child for big game choke jobs…

  76. The Anomaly Says:

    He needs all 5 years to see what we have but i would never sign him long term with what we’ve seen so far. no way.

  77. tmaxcon Says:


    Mckay was garbage sir he and dungy built some of the MOST EMBARRASSING offenses the league as ever witnessed…. 2 playoff wins in 6 years in nothing to brag about its FAILURE. It’s a shame that incompetent due wasted the franchises greatest player Warren sapp.

  78. LakeLand Says:

    Doug Williams was drafted by a 2-26 team and Doug had them in the NFC Conference Finals in his 2nd season.

  79. Rod Munch Says:

    tmaxcon – Matt Ryan is a choke artist and nothing is funnier than him losing, but to say Flacco is a better QB is the argument that someone with brain damage makes. Give it a rest.

  80. Rod Munch Says:

    LakeLand – Wait, so you think the 1979 Bucs won BECAUSE of Doug, not in spite of him? I guessing having the leagues #1 defense had nothing to do with it. Come on, you don’t actually believe that, you can’t be that drunk, it’s only 5pm.

  81. Nick2 Says:

    Lakeland read my last take it says nothing of the kind!!!!

  82. Joe Says:

    Doug Williams was drafted by a 2-26 team and Doug had them in the NFC Conference Finals in his 2nd season.

    Behind a fantastic defense and a strong running game, neither of which the Bucs have.

  83. Joe Says:

    Flacco is a better QB is the argument that someone with brain damage makes.

    LOL 🙂

  84. Duke Says:


    Gruden inherited a great defense. A great defense that time was running out on.
    So it’s not like He was trying to rebuild or even build. He was simply trying to maximize the remaining window of a great defense.

    The fact that the team Gruden inherited was a year away from major cap issues didn’t really help either. If the collective bargaining agreement that is currently in place was the same as when He took the job there would have been options available to get working cap space and get younger in the process. Unfortunately,
    those options were not available.

    If you remember why Parcells declined the job it was because He didn’t want to be straddled with an aging defense that had a 1 year window before the team was tied down with bad contracts and over the cap. Rich McKay is the guy who is responsible for the mess.

    What Gruden didn’t do and it wouldn’t have been popular was to start a rebuild by axing all those beloved fan favorites. You can argue the merits of that approach because it was a legitimate option at the time. But that’s not the false narrative that permeates any discussions having to do with his tenure as the bucs coach.

  85. tmaxcon Says:


    Never stated he was better. Statement I made was he accomplished more and the fact Ryan is not all that

  86. StPeteBucsFan Says:

    Geez I get that some are lacking in imagination. But give it a shot.
    Imagine that something that has already been demonstrated could at least possibly be demonstrated again.

    Look at the last game we played…the last time we saw the Bucs under the lights.

    That game was huge…a big test for the team’s leadership….Koetter….AND #3.
    The team clearly did not quit in a game that featured no motivation except for self respect. #3 and Koetter had their guys ready to play.

    But Jameis literally won that game. HE carried the team on his shoulder. Ignoring Koetter to try the make or break…win or lose pass…to either win or come home on your shield. #3 finds Godwin for the TD.

    Now can you not really imagine #3 doing this again? Can you not hear Gene Deckerhoff right now in your ears? can’t imagine…Jameis flushed out the pocket keeps the play alive and throws it down the field….TOUCHDOWN TAMPA BAY…Chris Godwin snags his second score of the day.

    Jameis had a mediocre year…cursed by injury. But he still improved his throwing % while decreasing the % of interceptions. That last game against New Orleans is the future. Embrace it. Winston to Godwin…TOUCHDOWN!!!!

  87. LakeLand Says:

    The Bucs went to the playoffs 3 times during Doug 5 years in Tampa. And after Doug left this crappy franchise after the 1983 season. They didn’t get back to the playoffs until 1997. Hugh Culverhouse thought the exact same thing, we have a great running game, we have great defense. We don’t need Doug, but guess what, that was his biggest mistake as an NFL owner.

    Leadership skills, Players character and motivating your teammates don’t show up on the stat sheet.

  88. LakeLand Says:


    I wasn’t referring to you

    I’m sorry for the mishap.

  89. tmaxcon Says:


    Any brain damage I have is from watching this pathetic franchise field embarassing team after embarassing team for 40 years. All buc fans are brain damaged or they would not care about this crapshow

  90. LakeLand Says:

    Excuses, excuses I hear new ones everyday.

  91. tmaxcon Says:


    Making the playoffs is nice but one and done is and was failure

  92. LakeLand Says:

    But at the end of the day…at the end of the conversation…..the only thing that people will remember is who won the game.

  93. LakeLand Says:


    Making the playoffs is something the Bucs haven’t done in over 10 years. So they must make failures look like winners.

  94. tmaxcon Says:


    Bucs most likely will NEVER make playoffs again given the goals of current ownership. Culvehouse would be an upgrade over these pathetic soccer junkies

  95. Buccaneer scotty Says:

    The bottom line is he’s an inaccurate turnover machine with a losing record that’s it! With padded stats in the 4th quarter they never start off good and they don’t start doing good until they’re losing 30 something and the other teams defense goes to a prevent defense like Winston or not the truth is the truth

  96. ManzielMadness Says:

    I agree that Licht derives criticism. He’s definitely drafted some solid players however he has to be able to build a team. Generally, you build from the inside out. Start with lines not the skill positions… never heard of team starting their rebuild with a bunch of WRs and LBs.

  97. tmaxcon Says:

    Buccaneer scotty

    At least jameis plays his best in the 4th qtr while your pedophile supporting cancer93 is out of gas and getting abused like a crackwhore against the run game. Nobody huffs and puffs like the out of shape quitter with no stanima cancer93

  98. Rod Munch Says:

    Duke – An injured Charlie Garner got $5m from the Bucs that offseason, from a team that had “no” cap room. They gave Ellis Wyms, remember him, $3.5m/year, again for a team with “no” cap room. They gave another million to Tim Brown. Those moves and perhaps some other minor tweaks would have kept Sapp and Lynch, but the team never spoke to either guy. Sapp said he’d take a discount to stay and Lynch had offered to redo his contract, the team didn’t even bother to talk to either guy. The narrative of the salary cap tying Gruden’s hands just isn’t real. Gruden destroyed the team to rebuild it in his image – which he most certainly did.

  99. tmaxcon Says:

    Rod Munch

    gruden’s ego would not allow for him to share the spotlight with popular players like sapp, lynch and allstott. alstott was never a hall of famer but gruden sure made sure the discussion would not even come up.

  100. Rod Munch Says:

    LakeLand – Not taking anything away from Doug, he became a better player as the years went on, but saying he took them to the NFC Championship game is like saying Trent Dilfer/Shawn King took the Bucs to the NFC Championship game. I guess in the world where the QB is the only person responsible for wins and losses that Dilfer was fantastic, he took a team that was terrible to the playoffs, then he went to Baltimore and put them over the top and won a SB because he’s a great QB.

    Again, it’s a nonsense simpleton argument.

  101. tmaxcon Says:

    cancer93 is the micahel jackson of football good feet and nothing more. same personality and same tendencies to be a little boy… no wonder McCauley Culkin is scared of the bucs.

  102. tmaxcon Says:

    Rod Munch

    don’t forget a REAL coach was able to win with Dilfer

  103. LakeLand Says:

    Back in 1978 when Doug were a rookie, the Bucs were 4-6 before Doug jaw was broken against the Rams.The Bucs had the worst O-Line in the NFL in 1976 and 1977. But Doug had only been sacked 6 times in 10 games before his injury. The Bucs was giving credit to the O-Line instead of Doug. But during the Bucs last 6 games, their backup QBs were sacked 46 times.

    46 sacks in 6 games, and Doug was only sacked 6 times in 10 games.
    And they went 1-5 after Doug was hurt
    And scored a total of 23 during their last 4 games, which they went 0-4

    So I would say that Doug Williams was a huge reason why they were winning games.

  104. LakeLand Says:

    46 sacks in 6 games……..unheard of

  105. Rod Munch Says:

    tmaxcon – I will agree with you on Gruden, he kept guys around that kept their mouths shut and wouldn’t outshine him. Barber and Brooks, both quiet guys. Rice could talk, but didn’t say much after those other guys left. Keyshawn was sent home during a playoff hunt (although to be fair trading for Galloway was by far Gruden’s best personnel move). Alstott was forced either sit on the sideline or play a straight FB role because he didn’t “fit” Gruden’s offense, that powerhouse that would be ranked in the mid-20s almost every year, and instead we got to watch Pittman run into the back of his offensive lineman on every play. Gruden got McKay fired because McKay wouldn’t sign Andre Rison, I really think it all comes down to that – then he put his stooge Bruce Allen in place, and the rest is history.

  106. tmaxcon Says:


    mckay was a joke and horrible gm…. football is 3 phases and Whyce and McKay could only build a defense. After whyce left drafting was HORRENDOUS… people can’t rewrite hisotry based on feelings and popularity…. it did not take blanks long to get mckay away from personnel side. mckay is an attorney / politician not a football guy.

  107. LakeLand Says:

    And the next season in 1979 Doug came back strong as ever and led the Bucs to the NFC Conference Finals. I said LED, I didn’t say he was the SOLE reason they went to the Finals. His toughness motivated the other players to play tough.

    1979 Doug Williams was sacked 7 times in 16 games……that’s toughness…something this soft, cream puff team is missing.

  108. Rod Munch Says:

    LakeLand – I’m really not bashing Doug Williams, I think people often look at his stats and don’t realize what an important guy he was, but if the Bucs had a merely average defense in 1979 they don’t get to the NFC Championship game. Saying Doug was better than his backup, well sure, we can agree on that. But Doug didn’t carry the team, the team was carried by the defense, Doug however did his part.

    Also I totally believe in the voodoo curse he put on the team, one not broken until the Bucs made peace with him. Culverhouse greatly undervalued the guy, although it’s hard to say getting Steve Young to replace him was a bad move. Getting rid of Steve Young to draft Testaverde, well that did turn out to be a bad move. Still kills me that Bucs could have had, well should have had since they had both players, Bo Jackson and Steve Young on the same team. Ugh.

  109. Rod Munch Says:

    tmaxcon – Rich McKay literally built a roster that won a SB. If he can only draft defensive guys, and those guys win a SB, then that’s cool with me. His “failed” reign as GM only produced the guys that would allow the Bucs to have a top 10 defense for over a decade, in most years top 5, the great defensive run in the history of the league. If that’s a sign of failure… LOL!

  110. LakeLand Says:

    Rod Munch

    I know exactly what you’re saying

    You’re saying that Jameis Winston don’t have the defense and running game that Doug have. But guess took the Bucs three years of existence to build that team. And back then they didn’t have free agency, and the other teams had a leg up on the Bucs. But now the Bucs has millions in cap space, high draft picks and free agency to build a team. It don’t make sense for them to be in a 10 year playoff drought. There’s no excuse for this.

  111. NFLNut Says:


    STEVEK and BEN:

    SteveK … if I had to bet $$$, I’d say Jameis does not get suspended for even one game, but I’m certainly not positive on that … however I am 99.99999% positive that even if Jameis gets suspended a full 6 games, he will still be offered the richest contract in NFL history when his time comes, be it by Tampa or another team.

    Ben … people on this site have speculated for a long time about who I am, with some claiming I’m one of Jameis’ family members and others that I’m one of his “handlers”, etc. I am neither. I’m just someone who follows QB careers and someone who happens to believe in Jameis’ future. There are other players I follow and other sites I post on as well, so I am not a Bucs fan or a Jameis-homer, I’m just someone who appreciates players and likes to follow the careers of various players I believe will end up in the HOF … and Jameis is one of those players.


  112. webster Says:

    You guys are totally misinformed about sapp and gruden. Sapp in his book said gruden is his guy. Sapp hated kiffin. Kiffin is the reason sapp left the bucs. When the owners cut cost gruden and allen asked kiffin what did he need? Kiffin told them he could win without sapp because of booger. Booger was younger and that is why sapp always laugh at the term potential and bad mouth kiffin. Google is your friend. Gruden never wanted to lose sapp. Make no mistake, the bucs cap situation was $hit and the glazers gave allen the directive of cleaning it up. Thats why from 2004 to like 2012, the bucs had the lowest salary of any team. Gruden signed cheap free agents like buchannon off the couch, jeremy stevens no one wanted for obvious reason, antonio bryant off the couch, jovan haye…who? Stylz g. White etc. Stop reaching for the low hanging fruit and educate yourselves. Gruden and sapp are tight.

  113. LakeLand Says:


    A team failure should fall on the GM or the Head Coach.

    But fans in Tampa won’t blame those two bums, so Jameis is the next man up. He’s the QB, the QB always take the bullet. But Jameis supporters point the finger at Mike Smith. The ones who should take the blame is Dirk Koetter and Jason Licht.

  114. webster Says:

    Just google sapp’s comments on kiffin out of his book. GOOGLE!!!!!

  115. LakeLand Says:

    They weren’t pointing fingers at Jameis when they fired Lovie. Matter of fact, they was pointing fingers in one direction ( Lovie direction). No players were to blame, no coaches to be blame. It was all on Lovie, but now it’s the players, it’s the coaches. But not the Head Coach lol….it’s amusing.

  116. webster Says:

    Google sapp comments when it was rumored gruden may be coming to the bucs. Read what he says about the potential combination of gruden and jameis. Come on buc fans…..educate yourselves. Its not that hard.

  117. Red86 Says:

    What’s funny and sad is that history is repeating itself again. Josh Freeman was doing the same thing. Putting us in winning position just for the defense to give up the lead or tie. Heck he even got us in playoff contention because the offense AND defense were ranked at least 16 th that year. I’ve plead to no success that the defense is to blame for this long drought since Gruden last playoff win here.

    Yet, fellow Bucs fan forgot that the Bucs were known for a great defensive team that did win often with low scoring games. Not once during the past 10 years has the Bucs became know for it offense scoring a lots of points. Yet, when Freeman and Jameis are the QB, we give the defense a pass as far accountability and poor play. While been unfairly harsher on the qbs that had/have a future to be special.

    Mean while, constantly coming up with excuses for the defense and players (GMac) for not doing their jobs at a high level “consistently.” The same excuses that don’t hold others top defensive players from performing. I just think it’s strange that a lot of people rip the #1 pick on offense for not doing their job. But give a pass to the #1 pick on defense that been here for a while. Not once have they been in conversation as DPOY.

    I get that it take a team to win, but that standard isn’t/wasn’t the same for for Freeman and Jameis. Which gave us overrated Glennon and a temporary set back for having a good to great offense for the first time with a good qb. I personally believe a lot of the picks thrown by Jameis/ Freeman are due to his lack of confident that the defense is going to get picks 6, 3 and out on a consistent basis, or force a field goal. That lead to taking more risky passes.

  118. DanBucsFan Says:

    Jameis is and will be best Buc qb ever. so young, such a competitor, such a leader, and YES such a role model for youth. Since he has been in town he caries himself like a franchise player. Any talk of trade him is clearly BS and shows some people play gm to much, like the few comment I has I’ve read about trade him or cut him and release him, for draft picks. We have holes to fill on this team, but QB I firmly believe we are good for next decade.

  119. Mr. Ed Says:

    Bucs fans are legendarily stupid. The least educated, dumbest mouth breathers on the planet. After the morons are done cutting Jameis they’ll cut Gerald.

    Ron White says it all — “You can’t fix STUPID.”

  120. LakeLand Says:

    Jameis Winston takes the bullet for Dirk Koetter and Jason Licht, they are responsible for this sideshow. They have a buddy network going. The good ole boy network. The fans are falling for this crap, get rid of the good ole boy network.

    Problem Solved

  121. SteveK Says:

    Mr. Ed,

    Please explain the “stupid” part of the fans?

    Do you think a Jameis will be suspended?

    Do you think our defense will get gouged, and lose us games again this year?

    Are you ok with a suck ass team with suck ass results?

  122. LakeLand Says:

    They ran the Falcons into the ground, Arthur booted them out of the A. Now they’re in Tampa, destroying the Bucs. And Jason Licht is right there in the middle, with his hidden hand.

  123. LakeLand Says:

    ***Arthur Blank***

  124. SteveK Says:


    I’m with you on the Licht comments.

    I think Koetter is a good coach, but he needs a frigging edge rush.

    5th year for Licht, let’s see some strong FAs. And bring back Grimes.

  125. LakeLand Says:


    John McKay was able to convert a expansion team into a playoff team in 3 years. And back then they didn’t have free agency, expansion teams were at an disadvantage. His son was able to convert the Bucs into a playoff team in 3 years. After 12 straight years without a winning record. With all of the cap space and high draft picks. Why Jason Licht can’t build a team?

  126. Rod Munch Says:

    LakeLand – Let’s take things piece by piece. First, I think Licht has done mostly a good job drafting, outside of the Vh3 pick which at the time I thought was a bit of a strech as he didn’t seem to be anything special – which you should be getting for basically a top 10 pick (even if it was 11). But in FA he’s been terrible, we can all at least agree on him being terrible in FA. The Bucs tanked in year 1 to get a QB, be it Winston or Mariota, and the Bucs clearly made the best choice in getting Winston. In year two they played a ton of rookies and while they were 6-10, I still label that a good season. Then they fired Lovie, which was a dumb move as it took Dirk away from working 1-on-1 with Winston and make him head coach. It’s still one of the dumbest decisions that no one seems to talk about that much. I believe you said you thought the same on firing Lovie, it was just dumb. But in year 3 of Licht the team improves to 9-7, that is what you want, the FA picks are still mostly busts, but the team looks like it’s improving. But go back to that 9-7 season and you see a lot of issues, the offensive line looked terrible, there was no depth at WR and Dirk was clearly overmatched as head coach and his offense was a shell of what it was the year before as Dirk became ultra predictable and conservative. Then last year the wheels seemingly come off as the team suffers a ton of injuries and the defense completely falls apart and Dirk himself falls apart to the point that Winston is having to give the coach a pep talk after the Carolina game just so Dirk doesn’t quit on the team again (again because he also quit on the team in the Denver game when threw a hissy fit). Dirk is not a good head coach and shouldn’t be a head coach and many problems come from that. I do think he’s a very good offensive coordinator and if that was his sole job I think the team would be in a dramatically better place. None of that is excuse making, it’s trying to logically look at the situation and figure out where things went wrong and what you do to fix it. Are the Bucs so broken you blow-up the team and start over yet again? The answer is in the record versus teams under .500, the Bucs were 4-1, they beat bad teams and if the defense doesn’t collapse in the GB game they’re 5-0 versus teams under .500. The Bucs played a very difficult schedule, the hardest in the league (no Chicago didn’t play a harder schedule, the Bucs played more playoff teams and teams that themselves played harder schedules). The defense literally can’t get worse – they might stay as bad, but they’re not getting worse – but they also might get better. On offense if Dirk just coaches like he did the last few games when his job on the line, if he mixes things up, then the offense will improve. The Bucs could with some good FA signings and some good drafting having a very quick turnaround time. If they played in a different division the Bucs would be a candidate to be a playoff team if they just upgraded the defense a tiny amount, but they don’t, they’re in the NFC South and that’s a huge thing to overcome. But even with the seeming disaster this year was the team wasn’t uncompetitive for the most part, they lost a bunch of close games, there is light at the end of the tunnel and by next offseason we’ll know if that light is a sunlight or a train headlight. Hopefully Licht does his job, hopefully Dirk coaches like his job is on the line and hopefully Mike Smith watches some game film and realizes when he plays his corners 15 yards off the LOS that teams just throw to the wide open guy and makes adjustments. We shall see, but it’s not a hopeless situation when you have a young franchise QB, which Jameis is.

  127. LakeLand Says:

    Rod Munch

    I guess we have to wait and see

  128. Rod Munch Says:

    webster – I know what Sapp says about Gruden, but Gruden does that to everyone, he tells everyone how much he loves them, how if it was up to him they’d keep everyone, but some other guy doesn’t like you, not me, but them – if it was up to me I’d keep you forever. I mean go look at what Gruden says about the Raiders now, he says he loves the Raiders more than anything, he would have never left if they had only kept him, he had no say in leaving, he loves Oakland more than anything, it’s always been his first love and he loves it so much.

    Gruden was the coach and GM, if he wanted to keep Sapp, he would have kept him. But he didn’t, and he didn’t want Lynch either, he wanted Charlie Garner, various random injured mid-30s offensive tackles and Tim Brown, he wanted guys to run HIS offense to prove he could win on offense. He couldn’t.

    As for Sapp I love the guy, he is probably my favorite Buc of all time, but like when listening to anything Gruden says you have to put Sapp’s comments through a BS filter since Sapp will “slightly” embellish things to make stories more entertaining or fit a narrative. He’s a tremendous storyteller and one of the most entertaining people on earth, but I wouldn’t take everything he says at face value.

  129. tmaxcon Says:


    How about an article about Lawrence Timmons upcoming release. He is a quitter and has injury concerns sounds like a perfect buccaneers man. Fit right in with your superhero

  130. The Buc Realist Says:

    Firing loser lovie was a dumb move?????????? I can’t believe that someone still thinks that!!!!!!!! What did you want to see the incompetent one lose double digits for the third straight year?????? Because that would have happened!!!!!! No one believed that his incompetent sons on the staff were bringing anything to the table!!!!!!

    The sheep call Head Coach Dirk Koetter’s regime the “good ole boy” network???? because they have working relationship, But loser lovie brings in his family and the sheep think that’s OK

    The clowns have been exposed!!!!!!!!!! and the revisionist history that the lovie loyalist are spinning is something no one is buying!!!!!!!!

    Go Bucs!!!!!!!!!!!!

  131. LakeLand Says:

    The record speaks for itself, 5-11 in the NFL that stinks and gets your the 7th pick in the draft.

  132. LakeLand Says:

    The worst GM in the NFC South

    The worst staff in the NFC South

    The worst players in the NFC South

    The worst team in the NFC South

    The worst Head Coach in the NFC South

    The worst Stench in the NFL

  133. LakeLand Says:

    ***5-11 get you the 7th pick in the NFL draft*** That means that you’re the 7th worst team in the NFL.

  134. webster Says:

    @ rod

    Sapp is not fake. He says what he feels/believe. Sapp has never sugar coated it. How in the world do you believe gruden wanted to leave oakland? He was traded!! Al davis wanted to trade him because gruden had the west coast offense. Davis loved the deep passes. That was not the west coast offense. Thats why davis traded him and the bucs were willing to pay the price. Stop reaching for the low hanging fruit and educate yourself. Gruden loved being the raiders coach and he loves it now. He never wanted out of there. He was shocked when he was traded. You will not find one article about gruden wanting to leave oakland. Thats all your made up belief. The glazers brought the soccer team and cut cost. Booger was giving a fat contract the year before sapp left. Google is your friend. Kiffin told gruden and allen they could win without sapp. Stop trying to rewrite history. Sapp and gruden are good. Everything you are talking is speculative period.

  135. SteveK Says:

    The Buc Realist Says:
    February 22nd, 2018 at 8:03 pm
    Firing loser lovie was a dumb move?????????? I can’t believe that someone still thinks that!!!!!!!! What did you want to see the incompetent one lose double digits for the third straight year?????? Because that would have happened!!!!!! No one believed that his incompetent sons on the staff were bringing anything to the table!!!!!!

    The sheep call Head Coach Dirk Koetter’s regime the “good ole boy” network???? because they have working relationship, But loser lovie brings in his family and the sheep think that’s OK

    The clowns have been exposed!!!!!!!!!! and the revisionist history that the lovie loyalist are spinning is something no one is buying!!!!!!!!

    Go Bucs!!!!!!!!!!!!



    Lovie Smith won 8 games in two seasons as Bucs’ HC. Dirk Koetter won 9 games as a rookie HC (1 season).

    This past year Dirk Koetter won 5 games. Guess how many games Lovie has won in college, Illionois, the last two seasons: 5 total.

    Statistics show that Koetter wins twice as much as Lovie, and more games in the NFL in two years than Lovie won in four total years: two with the Bucs and two in college.

    Numbers, results, facts!

  136. The Buc Realist Says:


    and 1st overall and a 9th for 2 years get you canned!!!!!!! Though truth be told the Glazers should have gone with their instinct and fired loser lovie after the first year disaster!!!!!!

    Go Bucs!!!!!!

  137. LakeLand Says:

    But it don’t make sense to compare one losing Head Coach record to another losing Head Coach record. Only Bucs fans does that, why not compare them to winning Head Coaches? The Bucs are a laughingstock, the most pathetic team in the NFL. This don’t erase the stench, the team still smells like a cesspool.

    They say our current Head Coach record is 14-18,….but it’s better than his predecessor record. It don’t matters who smells the best, they both STINKS.

    Life of Bucs fan

  138. TSyce Says:

    If you’re gonna tell us who he is Joe why neglect to mention all of the f*****PICKS he throws?!?! If you’re gonna tell the story TELL THE WHOLE STORY. Love struck ball lickers disgust me.At times he’s good, at times he’s trash. THAT’S the whole truth

  139. SteveK Says:


    We’re you pro Lovie getting a third year?

    If so, numbers say otherwise.

  140. donuts Says:

    5 INTs and 7 Fumbles in December. Formula for going 1-4. He did not play like the first pick in December. He still has a long way to go. Im worried Koetter/Bajankian methods are not working or coaching him up. Where is the progress? Dont give me that he played hurt nonsense…everybody plays hurt its the NFL.

    I still support 3. He is better than any other options and trading him is silly talk.

  141. Tbbucs3 Says:

    Jameis has a very high ceiling

    At this very moment I would say Jameis = Kirk Cousins/Carson Palmer

  142. Joe Says:

    5 INTs and 7 Fumbles in December. Formula for going 1-4. He did not play like the first pick in December.

    You and Joe were watching two different quarterbacks then.

  143. NFLNut Says:

    ^ Jameis made the Pro Bowl as a rookie over Kirk Cousins … he’s been better than Kirk Cousins since he was a 19 year old at FSU … he’s also far, far, far, far better than Carson Palmer was at his age and even for most of his entire career.

    Jameis is the most statistically accomplished QB of his age in the history of football, period.

    His floor is what he is now, a mid 90s passer rating gunslinger … his ceiling is … a 1st ballot HOF’er, something Carson Palmer will never be.

  144. Joe Says:

    How about an article about Lawrence Timmons upcoming release. He is a quitter and has injury concerns sounds like a perfect buccaneers man. Fit right in with your superhero

    Don’t be dumb. Then again, you prefer kneeling Akeem Spence over GMC. 🙂

  145. NFLNut Says:

    donuts … the progress … um, check his numbers, he set career bests in basically every single statistical category despite playing with no running support and half the year with a jacked throwing shoulder … that is the definition of progression.

    By the way, NO, not every QB plays with anywhere near as significant of an injury as an AC joint in their THROWING shoulder … that would sideline many QBs for the year.

  146. Joe Says:

    (Chucky) kept guys around that kept their mouths shut and wouldn’t outshine him.

    Never thought of that but you may be onto something.

  147. Duke Says:


    When Bruce Allen was hired by the bucs the team was 9mil over the cap with only 46 players under contract. They had zero money for a full roster, a practice squad, the draft and zero for bonuses and escalators . Real numbers 19mil in excess of the cap.

    McKay signed Booger to a huge contract extension which left zero room for resigning Sapp.

    2005 the team was 17mil over.

    2007 was the first time they weren’t restricted by the cap since 2000.
    But the Glazers didn’t spend money on the Bucs instead it was to help man u

    Sapp they wanted, Lynch ….nope.
    You can criticize the choices made by Allen, but the salary cap and its effects on the team aren’t up for opinion. That’s a fact. So is the Glazers not spending money for years which certainly constrained the team and their choices.

    Parcells said that the team would have to purge it’s high priced vets beginning in yr 2 because of the mismanagement of player contracts by McKay. Pretty freaking on point wouldn’t you say, or was that blind luck?

  148. Rod Munch Says:

    webster – Come on man, all Gruden did the entire time he was here is say this is where he always wanted to be, this was his first choice, he loves it here, etc etc etc, the second he signs with the Raiders it’s I never wanted to leave, this is my love, no place is better, etc etc etc. If you believe anything Gruden says, then I just feel sorry for you at this point.

    For Sapp I’m not saying Sapp is fake or lying, I’m saying Sapp will say what he thinks but he might turn up the volume a bit for color, it’s in part why he’s such a great entertainer. Even if you think that’s an insult, it’s not, the world needs more people like Sapp since most people are incredibly dull, boring and predictable. If he says Gruden said this or Kiffin said that, I’m sure they did, but I’m also saying if Gruden wanted to keep Sapp, he would have, he was the coach and GM. He didn’t want Sapp. He wanted Charlie Garner and Tim Brown.

  149. Tbbucs3 Says:


    Did you miss my first sentence when I said “Jameis has a very high ceiling”?

    I’m speaking in terms of the present moment when I say Jameis= Kirk Cousins/Carson Palmer and I think that’s pretty darn accurate.

    Sky is the limit for Jamies as he develops.

    Right now I think guys like Derrick Carr and Matt Stafford are a little ahead of him.

  150. Rod Munch Says:

    Duke – the story has already been told, we know how it played out…

    Here’s what happened…

    Sapp signed a deal for $6m/year with the Raiders – that’s Tim Brown ($1m) + Charlie Garner (est $5m)

    Lynch’s deal is harder to find but I always heard it was only like 2 year deal for around $2.5m/yr – which is less than Wyms ($3.5m) got.

    … and they found $5m for Joey Galloway
    … and they found $3m for Derrick Deese
    … and Matt Stinchcomb got $2.5m
    … and Todd Steussie got $3m
    …. and finally Ian Gold got $6m (well up to, don’t know final number)

    The Galloway deal turned out to be a good one, but just saying, where did they find $5m to sign him? Where does a team “strapped” by the salary cap find the money to do all these things? Same with Ian Gold, he got a 5yr deal worth “up to” $30m, what was the real number – I don’t know, but again how does a team “strapped” by the salary cap do all these things?

    The Bucs signed 21 free agents that offseason and only kept 3 of their own guys. Is that a team that was “strapped” by the salary cap? No, it’s not, that’s a coach getting full control of the team and cleaning house of guys he didn’t want.

  151. donuts Says:

    Joe there is no question that your biased and dont see Winston’s play correctly. This much is obvious. Its all good but the reality is he was 1-4. You can put as much lipstick on his play as you want but the record speaks for itself.

  152. Joe Says:


    Joe is very much biased against rotten quarterback play. Bucs have a storied history in this regard.

    Joe has zero desire to run off the best quartetback in Bucs history.

  153. webster Says:

    @ duke

    Rod is the type of know it all that even when you present facts to totally negate his made up belief and opinion, he refuse to listen. He is the type that cant admit he was wrong. Sapp and gruden has continued a friendship way past their playing and coaching days. When you are debating with a know it all that refuses to accept facts over his made up beliefs and opinions, it is a lost cause. And this is why many around the country laugh at our fan base. Many within our fanbase refuse to educate themselves and many spew made up beliefs and opinions as fact. A lost cause indeed.

  154. Duke Says:


    Lol. True but if you look at how He constructs His facts to support His opinions it is enlightening.

    Actually, if you look at how He laid it out, He makes sense. And frankly He does have a point about dumping money into FA’ s as opposed to signing some of the players who were on the roster.

  155. Duke Says:


    I understand where your coming from and you bring up a great point. The Bucs didn’t prioritize resigning certain players and they spent more to add old players.

    Here’s the part that is missing in your perspective. If you think that the cap issues were mythical and really a part of an overall scheme by Gruden to eliminate the guys getting the attention so He could bask in all the limelight available, you’re freaking retarded. Sorry, I’m not into derogatory comments about the mental state of anyone. But this is a case of conspiracy of such magnitude that it should be treated with all the dignity of an X-Files alien invasion cover up. I’m not going to entertain a crack pot theory but I will offer a simpler, fact supported, non crazy azz explanation that doesn’t require you to believe the lunar landing was faked.

    Once the bucs allowed Damn near half the team to walk, they created cap space.
    Now here’s the terrestrial explanation for something that you explain by going extra terrestrial. The team had to overpay to sign anyone. The savings realized by allowing everyone to walk was mis managed to a degree, because the team turned right around and signed a few overpriced , social security eligible , fossils which put them back close to the cap again.

    You want to reply, do this….Joel Glazed after the season explained the situation , how they approached it and how it worked out. His explanation is quite detailed and illuminates the complexities of managing multiple contracts and how the cap space dictated a certain philosophy . He admits that the plan backfired because of the lasting effects of the team’s ability to sign anyone and to get anyone to come to Tampa required a great premium. Joel said the Bucs brand suffered from the past few years and it was now costing them. He also explained with a great deal of modesty, He didn’t see it coming.

    Now , there’s a side that requires a great deal of personal information, insider knowledge of people but also their hidden motives and requires you to believe Gruden is Machiavelli with a visor. Or there’s the simpler version. No aliens, Oswald still was the lone gunman, we landed on the moon, the real world account which is told to public directly from the owners mouth to a motley collection of overweight UN athletic bay area reports. Funny, these reports save their work.
    So you can go now and be saved.

    You know who Gruden really wanted DUnn and then Thomas. He didn’t get either of them.

  156. webster Says:

    @ duke

    The bucs had limited money. Thats is why gruden asked monte what he needed. Monte told gruden he could win without sapp and the defense would still hum. Thats why gruden and allen invested in offense. He thought garner would be an upgrade over pittman or at least a tandem. Signing tim brown to help with a lineup that drafted a rookie wr, had a holdout in mccardell, newly traded for galloway was not a bad thing. He did not bring brown in here to be a number 1 wr. He was simply depth and that is why he was paid 1 million. Our team was so imbalanced financially on the defensive side of the ball at that time and allen per the glazers had to clean it up. Again, rod has his own belief and spin so whatever.

  157. Schlomie BarmitzvahCircumScissorStein Says:

    Playoff’s by 2026! It’s all one big scam.

  158. NFLNut Says:


    Jameis bested Derek Carr in nearly every statistical category last year despite playing much of the year with a jacked throwing shoulder … I don’t think Carr is as good as Jameis and Carr is quite a bit older as well.

    As for Stafford … I’m a huge fan of Stafford and feel he’s incredibly under-rated so I won’t argue with you on that one, though I will say I think Jameis has a higher ceiling than Stafford and will have a markedly better career

  159. Rod Munch Says:

    Duke – Thanks for the legit response, as for the name calling I’m pro-name calling as words don’t hurt, so there is literally no offense taken as I’m impossible to offend – feel free to try – and actually, if anything, it makes conversations more enjoyable in most cases.

    As for the idea of Gruden cutting guys that outshined him, I’ll add some nuance to that statement. I’m not saying that was reason one on his list, but what am I saying is that it didn’t hurt the situation in his mind. People like Gruden, that make everything about themselves, that feel the need to be the center of attention, they never actually know that they’re that person, they just know they like it better when other more flashy people aren’t around. As for Gruden the schmoozer, that is just Gruden and why some people like him, and some people hate him, that is an act and he knows it’s an act- it’s part of being a salesman and Gruden is a fantastic salesman, I’ll give him that.

    As for the primary reason Gruden let all those guys go, again, in my opinion it all came down to Gruden wanting “his” guys, not Dungy’s. Kiffin ran the defense, Gruden didn’t have a lot to do with it. Gruden was an “offensive” guy and he wanted offensive players, thus the disaterious signings of Garner and the collection of injured offensive lineman. I don’t think it’s a huge conspiracy to say Gruden would have rather spent money on the offense instead of keeping the defense together.

    The math proves the Bucs could have kept Sapp and Lynch had they wanted to, the math proves it. They didn’t want to do that. That’s my entire point – when people say they had no choice, that’s just not the case. It was a choice, and as we know, they choose very very wrong. Sapp goes on to have 10-sacks playing out of position in Oakland and Lynch goes on to another 3 Pro Bowls. Meanwhile Garner had a total of 30 carries for 110 yards, all those old injured offensive lineman turned out to be old injured offensive lineman. As for Wyms he averaged 3 sacks a season and Ian Gold played one year and was cut.

    However, again to be fair, Galloway for Keyshawn, that was a good deal as it turned out, although if you read what actually happened there the Cowboys were going to cut Galloway and the Bucs were going to sign him as a FA, but the trade for Keyshawn allowed the Bucs to save $1m that they’d have to pay to cut him.

    This isn’t all hindsight, many people were saying the same thing at the time, I know I certainly was. The window on the defense wasn’t shut, they had perhaps 2-3 more years, but instead they basically did a rebuild job.

    As for Gruden wanting Dunn when he got here in 2002, of that I have no doubt, however McKay had to let Dunn walk, in particular when the Falcons gave him $6m/year. The team won on defense and that’s where the money had to go, McKay knew that, and to me that is a move that makes complete sense even if I personally hated.

    As for Thomas, from the info that is out there, he signed a 4yr/$10-mil deal, so they could have kept Thomas had they not went after Garner. I think that’s another Gruden loves everyone, everyone is the best, but oh yeah the guys upstairs, they don’t like you, nothing I can do about it pal.

    Anywho keep the conversation going if you wish, I enjoy this as it gives me a refresher on why I hated Gruden so much at the time.

  160. Rod Munch Says:

    webster – I laid out the numbers for you, what the deals were in the best detail I can find. If all you’re saying is that the Bucs CHOOSE to spend on offense instead of defense, then you’re completely agreeing with what I said. I’m not sure where you’re confused on that.