Glennon Success Wouldn’t Be Ideal?

February 13th, 2015

GlennonjagsBefore the Mike Glennon Mob prepares to egg Joe’s house and curse Joe’s existence, let it be clear that the following take comes from a Bucs beat writer and a former glory days Buccaneer.

Tampa Bay Times scribe Rick Stroud is a host weekday mornings on WDAE-AM 620. And it was there that Stroud stated the cutting of Josh McCown this week was “a lean towards [Jameis] Winston,” versus drafting Oregon quarterback Marcus Mariota.

But Stroud’s logic was interesting. He said the Bucs would rather not have a guy like Mariota on the bench learning the NFL because they don’t want a situation with Mike Glennon starting and succeeding with the rookie watching.

Stroud likened that scenario to the mess in Cleveland last year with quarterback Brian Hoyer successful thriving amidst a media and fan circus clamoring for Johnny Football to debut.

Former Bucs defensive end Steve White (1996-2001) also shared a somewhat related take on Twitter, in response to Tampa Tribune Bucs beat writer Roy Cummings Twittering about Glennon starting as a “bridge” to a rookie.

White doesn’t like the possible smell of Glennon performing and getting shuffled aside.

Joe’s banging his head against the wall.

The Bucs have been so damn bad for so long, 30-70 in their last 100 games, that the sweet taste of victory would be a beautiful thing no matter who is at QB.

Jiminy freakin’ Christmas. So, for example, the Bucs are somehow winning with Glennon? Great. Wonderful. Fantastic. The rookie can wait. If he’s the right rookie, he’ll be happy as hell for Glennon and busting his ass to be ready.

Simple as that.

63 Responses to “Glennon Success Wouldn’t Be Ideal?”

  1. AK Says:

    Thank you Joe, preach. I saw that comment from White and was befuddled. 30-70 like you said over the last 100 games and if we have success but it’s not with the QB one would expect, it’s a bad thing? Nitpicking wins isn’t a good business to be in…since wins come so infrequently around here.

  2. Bill T Says:

    Its different though with Manziel. He is not the 1st pick in the draft. So if Glennon does well, it will increase his trade market from 3rd or 4th to 2nd round (most likely). Whoever is picked 1st will have to be the Starter toward end of year 1 and for sure year 2. Too much invested in him

  3. mike n Says:

    I like Glennon. I don’t know if he is going to ever be anything more than average, but here is where I’m pissed…. We knew Josh wasn’t the guy, so why the hell didn’t we let Glennon play the last 8 games so we knew everything we have in Glennon? just dumb!

  4. LJ'sDaddy Says:

    I don’t care if Charles Manson is our quarterback. I want wins!

  5. Luther Says:

    If Glennon is winning games then Winston can wait and learn.

  6. Luther Says:

    LJ’sDaddy Says:
    February 13th, 2015 at 10:45 am
    I don’t care if Charles Manson is our quarterback. I want wins!

    —————————————————————–

    According to some of the posters here, Winston is Charles Manson

  7. biff barker Says:

    Wins are wins whomever is behind the center.

    If Glennon can be successful won’t we have an Aaron Rogers scenario? Let a rookie QB learn? A real offense too? A stable coaching situation to build on?

  8. The Buc Realist Says:

    Glennon winning with the Bucs will be a lot easier if the Bucs had a stud DE making sacks and plays!!!

  9. phreakybucfan Says:

    Why do I have this strange feeling that we’re going to trade Glennon to the Patriots, where he will take over after Brady retires, win four super bowls and have a hall of fame career?

  10. Skyline Crew Says:

    Two different skill sets so they wouldn’t/shouldn’t be on the same roster together anyways. As for the Browns, the fans got what they deserved. Manziel should have never started. Rookie coach F’d that one up. Hoyer was winning them games and had them in a playoff hunt and then the HC jacked that all up by sitting him for Manziel just to appease the fans. Stupid move. If Glennon were to have success then whatever rookie QB was sitting behind him should definitely continue to sit. Why wouldn’t you want your Rookie QB to sit and learn as much as possible before being thrown on the field? Just doesn’t make sense. Teams should never listen to fans on how to run a team.

  11. BuccoDav Says:

    We could only dream of a nightmare scenario such as this…

    This sounds like people who tell you “you don’t want to win the lottery, it will just create so many problems in your life.”

  12. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    I suspect that hiring Koetter & Bajakian…..fixing the Oline with the continued improvement on defense will produce some wins with Glennon at QB……

    It is very possible that much of this is being fueled by Koetter.

    It’s too early for much of this speculation…..wait until FA period is over.

    I would love for the Bucs to be in a position to win while developing a rookie QB…either one….even if they are the #1 pick. What on earth would be wrong with that?

  13. MTBuc Says:

    Could it have been that Lovie knew how dire it was, and didn’t want to injure the body or confidence of, nor hamper the development of Glennon with no OC and that terrible line. Maybe Mike is still the guy and Lovie did him a favor? Or not, just food for thought…

  14. HFXBUC Says:

    everyone is getting too ‘strategic’ with this… wins are wins a winning QB is the hardest and most important thing to find. Build a stable of QB’s and whomever turns out to be the best is the starter. It’s the Seattle model…. draft and sign as many guys as possible until you find your gem. Look at the line of QB’s that Carol brought in…lots of strikeouts but you’ve got to swing to hit home runs.

    Draft Jameis 1st, Hundley 2nd, Petty or (whomever) in the 3rd, keep Glennon and start the best guy. Without a star QB nothing else matter. Nothing.

    Lets get this QB thing fixed!

  15. bucs4lyfe Says:

    seriously now glennon could win if he had a stud d end? where is matt ryan’s d end? do you now how bad eli manning has been playing but theres no doubt he can win because he did win. did Pittsburgh have an allstart defense when we beat them? what about the colts, raiders were 3-13, redskins won 4 games even. the excuses are endless and it’s beyond played out

    Bucs would rather not have a guy like Mariota on the bench learning the NFL because they don’t want a situation with Mike Glennon starting and succeeding with the rookie watching.

    ok we’ve been waiting for 2 offseason and here is number 3. a lot of people tried to get on his side after freeman was benched even though it was a bad idea but we did and he showed nothing as a rookie wasn’t given a chance last offseason and given a chance in season I was just as ineffective as mccown. he gets the job by default but I doubt he’ll hold off the rookie, he just doesn’t know how to win games

  16. Pickgrin Says:

    “the Bucs…don’t want a situation with Mike Glennon starting and succeeding with the rookie watching.”

    What an idiotic thing to say. We have some of the stupidest beat writers of any NFL city. That would be a dream scenario. Lovie will take wins any way he can get them – I guaran- damn-tee you that. If Glennon has success next year and gets the Bucs to the playoffs or similar – then you trade him for a 1st round pick once the young QB is ready to take over. OMG – what a terrible quandary that would be – LOL

  17. Jeagan1999 Says:

    Gee, how awful it would be to have Mike Glennon win us a whole bunch of games while Mariota/Winston rode the pine for a few years! What a freakin disaster to have a rookie QB sit for a few years and, you know, actually learn the game before he stepped out onto the field for any meaningful action! Didn’t Aaron Rodgers ride the bench for a few years while a guy named Favre won a whole bunch of games? As for their “skill sets” not being the same….SO FRIGGIN WHAT! There are many examples of QBs with different skill sets being on the same team! It some cases…like the Niners for example (Montana & Young) it works out pretty well!

  18. Robert 9 Says:

    this will be the 1st time MG actually get’s 1st team reps in practice, and an OC that can cater to his strength.

    he’s gonna come out swinging, knowing this IS his shot.

    for those that say he got his shot thrown into $hitball situations. your just baffoons.

  19. The Buc Realist Says:

    MGM is alive!!

    Quick, who was the last Bucs QB to win 3 games in a row?

    answer MG8!

  20. bucs4lyfe Says:

    @Pickgrin

    you should be doing their jobs for them…..see the difference of talking to lovie when you hear a rumor versus just saying something stupid

  21. Robert 9 Says:

    and correction guys. Should Glennon light it up/prove to be our QB.

    you then TRADE Mariota to Chip Kelly for a kings ransom.

  22. Pickgrin Says:

    The reason that Lovie did not play Glennon the last few games of the season BTW was because McCown was in charge of making sure that we lost games – without it looking like we were trying to lose. He did a masterful job and we will get our franchise QB as a result. That one was pretty easy to see in retrospect.

  23. BucFan20 Says:

    Glennon knows how to win games. The problem is the defense and ST knew how to give them away after Glennon had them in the lead.

  24. INDYbucsfan Says:

    Trut dat!

  25. Waterboy Says:

    I’m perfectly fine with drafting Winston and letting him battle it out with Glennon and if Glennon starts and proves to be a great player I’m perfectly fine with sticking with him. I honestly don’t care who the QB is as long as he gives the team the best chance to win which is why my draft preference is Winston. I don’t trust the success that Mariota had in college in that up-tempo spread-option system.

  26. biff barker Says:

    Bucs would rather not have a guy like Mariota on the bench learning the NFL because they don’t want a situation with Mike Glennon starting and succeeding with the rookie watching.
    —————————–
    Stick to watching kickball. That’s just plain ignorant babble.

  27. bucs4lyfe Says:

    lol you guys are crazy!!! if glennon beats out Winston or mariotta our future is doomed glennon is garbage

    BucFan20 Says:

    February 13th, 2015 at 11:24 am
    Glennon knows how to win games. The problem is the defense and ST knew how to give them away after Glennon had them in the lead.

    how many times has glennon sat on the bench at the end of the game with a lead? only season I can point to and compare is schiano’s last year and I seem to remember freeman on the bench with the lead at the end of the saints game and the jets game and no one talks about that at all, theres no need for me to bring up the greatness that is josh freeman but don’t give me that crap about glennon would be better if he had a defense. the one and only thing I can say about glennon is he isn’t responsible for any of our losses but at the same time he’s never the reason we win either. reason we won that pittsburg game is the DEFENSE was lighting that team up not glennon. even Michael Johnson was dominating in that game

  28. Skyline Crew Says:

    Robert 9 Says:
    February 13th, 2015 at 11:19 am

    and correction guys. Should Glennon light it up/prove to be our QB.

    you then TRADE Mariota to Chip Kelly for a kings ransom.
    ******
    In this scenario why would you do that? You let his contract run it’s course. If Glennon gets hurt who would back him up? We traded the rookie so now we have nobody. Not a good idea. You keep him on the bench until he surpasses the Cannon.

  29. biff barker Says:

    Pickgrin Says:

    The reason that Lovie did not play Glennon the last few games of the season BTW was because McCown was in charge of making sure that we lost games – without it looking like we were trying to lose. He did a masterful job and we will get our franchise QB as a result. That one was pretty easy to see in retrospect.
    —————————————————
    Nah. Lovie was trying to win every single game but the very last. If Lovie didn’t want a greenhorn QB to start this season, why would he tank an entire season for one this year?

    You play to win. A culture of losing is very difficult to overcome.

  30. bucs4lyfe Says:

    so pathetic are glennon fans….he is the only quarterback in the league that people say of glennon would win many more games if it wasn’t for his defense. a guy that just happens to have been nothing but a back up so far in his career. the glazers don’t like him so it doesn’t matter how you feel about this guy, they aren’t drafting a quarterback 1st overall just to sit behind a guy like glennon so I cant understand why so many are delusional about the future of glennon because it wont be here in tampa very long. even if you draft a quarterback that’s two quarterbacks, you almost automatically have to sign another one in free agency and this is a new coordinator and everyone is learning his offense on the fly so I think competition is in order this summer

  31. Skyline Crew Says:

    @bucs4lyfe

    So the Saints game was Glennon’s fault or the Defense’s fault?

  32. Chef Paul Says:

    Makes sense. Best way to not put points on the board is to not have your QB be successful

  33. biff barker Says:

    We have some tools missing from the shed this morning folks!

  34. Broy34 Says:

    I cannot believe Glennons name is still being typed. WATCH THE UNDERTHROWS AGAINST WASHINGTON. THATS WHY HE WAS TAKEN OUT. LIKE LOVIE WOULD LET HIS FRIEND MCCOWN DIE FOR THE TEAM. CMON. Watch the film and if I even see GLENNON called a cannon when he underthrew MIKE EVANS, a slow possession jump ball receiver not once but twice how would Glennon fair throwing a 30 Yarder to desean. Glennon is garbage as my brother said after watching all 16 games last year. The only Glennon people in here r just biased and simply are fools when it comes to front office thinking that MIKE F-ING GLENNON is in the likes of Flacco Eli Peyton Tom Big Ben. I mean for crying out loud it’s not even close. Koetter said mobile on 3rd down. That was a hint to all the people like me who know we’re drafting a quarterback and trading Glennon. They’re praising him for trade bait you fools and lovie will laugh his ass off is he gets a 3rd from Arizona

  35. Broy34 Says:

    I mean come on guys. The first overall pick and people want to trade down. And you all attached the guy yesterday but he was right about the Rams. Can blank peyton at home but can’t win 8 games without a QB. Don’t tell me they’re two pieces away when the whole state of Missouri knows it’s not 2004 u cannot win a superbowl without a top ten quarterback. So be honest and ask yourself. Can Glennon be top 10

  36. Pickgrin Says:

    biff barker Says:
    February 13th, 2015 at 11:46 am
    You play to win. A culture of losing is very difficult to overcome.

    ———————————————————————————

    Yea – tell that to the Colts. LOL. If you think they didn’t “Lose for Luck” – then you would be wrong.

    We went “Winless for Winston” for at least the last 3-4 games. Once we hit about 2-10 – the tank was on. I’m proud of Lovie for doing what was in the best interest of this franchise and I’m quite sure the Glazers were fully informed as to what was happening and approved that move – that is if they didn’t demand it in the 1st place…..

  37. Barry Says:

    Glennon never had a legit shot when he deserved it. If Glennon develops into a very good QB then that’s good for the Bucs.

  38. Mr. Patrick Says:

    Mike Mayock now comparing Winston to Jay Cutler because of the high number of interceptions. Just another red flag

  39. StPeteBucsFan Says:

    I think Biff Barker makes an excellent comparison. Sitting Mariota/Winston for a year or two would be like Rodgers riding the pine. How did that work out. And when he came in he had the pressure of replacing a legend not simply a winning QB.

    I think it could also go down like San Diego. Rivers or Brees? If Glennon can win 10 and I think he can if we upgrade our OL to merely competent and Koetter features a lot of 3 step drops and toss it…Glennon would have major value!

    We reap the reward and begin playing Mariota/Winston in year two.

  40. ToesOnTheLine! Says:

    Could it have been that Lovie knew how dire it was, and didn’t want to injure the body or confidence of, nor hamper the development of Glennon with no OC and that terrible line. Maybe Mike is still the guy and Lovie did him a favor?

    @ MTBuc

    That is what I think was the real scenario too (but I am MGM, so obviously there’s some bias with me). It does seem plausible that once Lovie realized Arroyo was in over his head, Tedford wasn’t going to be calling plays in Tampa, the OL needed major upgrades, and later on that the season was lost it made little since to watch Glennon develop happy feet, loose confidence, and/or get hurt bad. Then again perhaps I am giving Lovie too much credit for doing such a sensible thing?

  41. PFish91 Says:

    Joe,

    So then what if we get hott with Glennon and with a prayer from above make the playoffs under him. Do we get rid of the rookie???

  42. bucs4lyfe Says:

    Skyline Crew Says:

    February 13th, 2015 at 11:47 am
    @bucs4lyfe

    So the Saints game was Glennon’s fault or the Defense’s fault?

    do you know how many games you can ask that question about a team or a quarterback? bottom line is he is a losing quarterback. this idea that he would be good if he had this or that is nonsense. same could be said for coaches and the point is your a loser or your a winner. dont even ask me that question because freeman played 3 games that year, 2 of them he was sitting on the bench at the end of the game and had the lead, he took the blame because schiano’s defense was garbage and his playcalling was as atrocious and freeman’s accuracy. so with your theory every game that glennon played was the defenses fault. he probably got fired for picking glennon in the third round in the first place. the glazers never had a franchise quarterback and freeman was the closest to one they have ever seen and your foolish if you think that they ever saw glennon as his replacement. THATS MY POINT he is just a guy not bad not good just a guy and you dont make those guys your franchise, we are now in the we are in the post jake delhomme era where after him the panthers drafted jimmy clausen and matt moore before getting cam newton. thats what glennon is, he is jimmy clausen matt moore talented now were about to go get our franchise guy and he should be glennon out and i have more faith that winston can do that quicker than glennon

    having said that I can easily see them drafting mariotta and grooming him to be the guy while glennon plays out his contract but that’s not a flattering comment or a glowing endorsement about glennon, he’s already a josh mccown stop gap type player

  43. bucrightoff Says:

    Pickgrin Says:
    February 13th, 2015 at 12:07 pm
    Yea – tell that to the Colts. LOL. If you think they didn’t “Lose for Luck” – then you would be wrong.

    We went “Winless for Winston” for at least the last 3-4 games. Once we hit about 2-10 – the tank was on. I’m proud of Lovie for doing what was in the best interest of this franchise and I’m quite sure the Glazers were fully informed as to what was happening and approved that move – that is if they didn’t demand it in the 1st place…..
    ______________________________________________________________

    Two things: They didn’t suck for Luck, they lost Peyton Manning and it showed you what he meant, he was literally the difference between them being a perenial playoff team and one of the worst teams in the league. The Packers are the same now, Rodgers gets hurt and they’ll go 4-12 at best.

    Second, Luck was a generational talent and most had him on the HOF path before he was even drafted and was a 90/10 QB (90% HOFer, 10% great QB). Winston is not a lock to go #1. They are not the same, not even close. I never saw Andrew Luck get compared to Jay Cutler, but Winston has been. Winston is the classic 50/50 QB. Andrew Luck he is not.

  44. carlstoe Says:

    Skyline are Cam and Anderson the same type of QB? Kaepernick and Gabbert? Hoyer and Johnny? Brady and Garropolo? RG3 and Cousins? OC’s call plays to the strength of the QB! How? There are hundreds of plays to choose from! Finally got it?

  45. warrenfb12 Says:

    If Glennon is successful, I would have zero issue keeping said rookie on the bench.

    Anyone who is so concerned that a guy might have success that the deliberately foil said player, should not have any hand in building or operating a franchise.

    I seriously doubt Licht/Lovie would deliberately foil Glennon.

  46. warrenfb12 Says:

    furthermore, ousting Mccown is a nod toward Winston. Why would they keep Glennon and draft Mariota. You would need an offense for your starting QB and one for your back up. At least with Winston/Glennon you could base an offense around similar skill sets.

  47. ElioT Says:

    But Glennon is ugly, can’t run super fast and his helmet is too big.

    Go Sucs!

  48. Jbeachbuc Says:

    I am actually afraid that Lovie wasn’t BSing us when he stated Glennon as the “quarterback of the future” …
    Will he trade down AND/or pick up the best DE come draft day.

    Please don’t do this coach.

  49. BirdDoggers Says:

    So, the idea is to have more failure until the time is right for success? Whew, that’s a mind blowing concept.

  50. carlstoe Says:

    Warrenfb12 can you read? Cam and Anderson opposite! Hoyer and Johnny opposite! Kaepernick and Gabbert! Brady and Garropolo! RG3 and Cousins!

    OC’s have hundreds of plays to choose from. They call plays to the strengths of the QB! Finally understand?

  51. bucs4lyfe Says:

    warrenfb12 Says:

    February 13th, 2015 at 12:56 pm
    furthermore, ousting Mccown is a nod toward Winston. Why would they keep Glennon and draft Mariota. You would need an offense for your starting QB and one for your back up. At least with Winston/Glennon you could base an offense around similar skill sets.

    your talking common sense and that doesn’t work on joebucsfan especially if your carrying the jock strap of a back up quarterback destined to replace josh mccown as the nfl’s journyman quarterback of the year

  52. JFat Says:

    The playbook stuff is ridiculous. “Carlstoe” is dead on.

    The Cousins/RGIII/McCoy example is on track. Or a couple years ago when Alex Smith got concussed and Kaepernick came in and took the job in SF. It’s up to the OC to work to his QB’s strength…something Koetter has already mentioned a couple times.

    Using the logic that the Bucs are leaning towards Winston because they cut McCown is a lazy way of thinking. There’s NO WAY the Bucs have made their mind up already about who they are drafting, certainly not to the extent where they are making roster decisions around it. They haven’t even interviewed these guys yet.

    What if Mariota goes in to his interview and aces the chalk board, they take him out to Pro Day and he can take a clean snap from center, 3,5,7 step drops, no issue? Shows he is more “NFL-Ready” than people think. Are they not going to draft him because he isn’t enough like Glennon and changing the play calls would be “too hard”?

    McCown got cut because he sucks and was overpaid, nothing more.

  53. carlstoe Says:

    Bucs4lyfe why did Anderson do so well filling in for Cam? He’s nothing like Cam!

  54. ddneast Says:

    Being QB rich is a fate this team can only dream about. The scenarios some people dream up is mind boggling.

  55. BCoburn Says:

    If QBs are so damn important in this league you take one somewhere in rounds 1-3 every 2 or 3 years until you find the guy and make it a real competition. No favourites because of pressure and/or pride from drafting a guy high. I’ll happily let a #1 pick ride the pine if a lower round pick is a better player. It’s not generally a surprise when you play a guy and he suddenly plays better than his teammate. You get to spend a lot of time with both in everyday practice. Veteran backups are often overrated I think. Would rather have 2 guys that both have potential to be good and possibly suffer in the short term than to have one young guy that turns out to be garbage and an older guy who you basically know is mediocre and always has been. A guy who can maybe win a few games here and there but won’t win a superbowl. Or hey maybe this is an argument to keep 3 QBs if you want. It’s just 1/53 spots. Teams live and die by their QBs, why worry so much about wasting a pick or two or an extra roster spot if need be? Now obviously if there’s a guy you think could be a future HOF that can put off taking a QB until later.

  56. Kingpin1 Says:

    Common sense!! It’s about winning that’s it. This ain’t no popularity contest.

  57. Chris L Says:

    What about the old saying, “If you have 2 quarterback you have none”

  58. BucIt941 Says:

    I Think Lovie and Licht saw that Glennon was struggling a bit and the season was gassed at that point. Instead of allowing him to play and possibly decrease his trade value through poor play or injury. They decided to roll with the struggling veteran knowing they can just cut him at the end of the year without any real penalties. So from a business standpoint keeping Glennon on the bench was actually a smart way to protect a future investment.

  59. Bill Says:

    If Glennon starts and succeeds I don’t see it being a problem for Winston or MM. Sit and learn, nothing wrong with that.

  60. tickrdr Says:

    For bucs4lyfe and tmaxcon and everyone who thinks that WINS as a young QB are the only thing that matters. It’s probably a good thing that you were not the GM/coach of the Indianapolis Colts.

    Did you know that Peyton Manning started his career there with 5 wins and 14 losses in his first 19 games? That’s right, the #1 overall pick in the draft, the consensus 1st ballot Hall of Famer, went 3-13 in his rookie year, and 2-1 to start his second year. I’m sure you would have cut that loser, ASAP.

    Did you also know that in his first 19 games in the league, that Peyton Manning threw for 33 TDs and 33 INTs.
    In 18 games plus a garbage quarter against ATL this year, Mike Glennon’s record is 5 wins and 13 losses. Furthermore this poor excuse for a QB has 29 TDs, (absolutely ALL checkdowns, of course), but only 15 INTs.

    tickrdr

  61. White Tiger Says:

    If Glennon truly is that great, they wouldn’t draft a QB with the first pick (unfortunately, I’m still not convinced thy will).

    As mentioned in another blarticle – if the Bucs are going to draft Fameis – it would make sense to keep/start Glennon until the kid was ready to go in (in a year). They’re similar players, almost to a” T”.

    I don’t like it, but it’s the truth. I think it would be far easier to to raft Marriota, you don’t need technical offensive linemen, just need to have a couple of mobile back-up QB’s and an average offensive line running zone scheme. Allows you to put more money into WR, RB. Since we’re not stock-piling mobile QB’s – it doesn’t appear to bode well for Marcus Marritoa coming to Tampa.

    I think Fameis Jameis is a mistake waiting to happen.

  62. Nole on Sat.-Bucc on Sun. Says:

    Man im all in for WINSton number one overall,but I honestly think I would be more inclined to seeing marita get some run before I had to watch glennon take another snap. Broy34 hit it right on the head,all cement shoes does is under throw people. For his supposed big arm all he does is under throw.

  63. BoJim Says:

    Pickgrin Says:
    February 13th, 2015 at 11:15 am

    If Glennon has success next year and gets the Bucs to the playoffs or similar – then you trade him for a 1st round pick once the young QB is ready to take over. OMG – what a terrible quandary that would be – LOL
    ________________________________________________________

    So you’re saying to trade Glennon if he takes us to the playoffs?????????????

    The Glennon haters are a bunch of nobs.