The Defensive Tackle Vs. The Personnel Guy
May 7th, 2022
Clashing tackle takes
When the Bucs made three picks on Day 2 of the NFL Draft, Joe was patrolling at One Buc Palace, more specifically inhaling free food from Team Glazer.
Back at JoeBucsFan.com world headquarters, Joe’s crew of 16 1/2 interns was recording various draft coverage for Joe to soak up later. And at least one interesting TV moment was captured.
As the Bucs approached the first pick of Round 2, which became defensive tackle Logan Hall at No. 33 overall, former Washington and Philadelphia personnel executive Louis Riddick was on BSPN calling for the Bucs to pick Hall.
Riddick labeled Hall an ideal 3-4 defensive lineman with excellent pass rushing traits and versatility, and his strong motor combines with the instinctive “long chase” desire of great defensive linemen.
Interestingly, chatting alongside Riddick — and before Riddick — was Booger McFarland, the former Bucs defensive tackle during the glory years of Tampa Bay’s Super Bowl. Booger was barking for Bucs general manager Jason Licht to pick Oklahoma defensive tackle Perrion Winfrey, praising his ability to rush the passer from the 3-technique position.
Winfrey also was a favorite of former Bucs DT Gerald McCoy, who said Georgia’s Davonte Wyatt, a guy the Bucs passed on when they traded down from the No. 27 pick, was the best defensive tackle in draft.
Winfrey later became the third pick of Round 4. The Browns chose him two spots after the Bucs picked Washington tight end Cade Otton. Joe secretly was hoping (just a little) the Bucs would draft Winfrey there to load up on potential pass rushers.
Joe loves this kind of stuff. Hopefully, Riddick and Licht prove to be wiser than Booger. Something fun to low key monitor.
May 7th, 2022 at 4:26 pm
A legit debate, given Vea’s unreliability. Pure NT vs. inside pass rusher/multi-tech.
It remains an issue until we see what we’ve got.
May 7th, 2022 at 4:31 pm
It certainly is a legitimate debate…….DT vs TE…..we needed both but I guess more the TE since our first pick was Dline…..Very difficult to compare players at different positions……
May 7th, 2022 at 4:38 pm
Cade Ottton was not likely falling anymore as it was clear he was the best TE on the board left and there were not alot of name players left
May 7th, 2022 at 4:48 pm
I was thinking they would take Winfrey in the 4th and double up on D-Lineman too… but I’m happy with the TE they selected.
May 7th, 2022 at 4:54 pm
As an armchair GM, I would have preferred Perrion Winfrey over Otten. Saw an interview with Winfrey, that dude is crazy in a JPP way. A 3rd down Dline of Vea, Winfrey, and Hall would send a ton of pressure inside letting JTS or Shaq run free.
May 7th, 2022 at 4:54 pm
Booger doesn’t spend the amount of time studying these guys that actual scouts and personnel people do. He’s paid to have a “take”…
May 7th, 2022 at 5:19 pm
Passing on Wyatt, I believe, is going to end up being a huge mistake – what I watched of him, he looks like an NFL player already, a guy with a really fast first step, and all his measurables checked out. But what do I know, I only watched a limited amount of stuff, but he Wyatt just looks like a guy who is going to be really really good. Also the Bucs did not take Wyatt off their board for off the field stuff, that’s what they say, so they don’t get a pass there.
Hall on the other hand, his tape is mediocre, at best. He looks like a JAG (just a guy). His ‘good’ tape is against teams who I’ve never heard where he’s manhandling guys who clearly are a few levels below him physically. To my eye he looks like a guy who is going to take time to develop, and even then, maybe not be anything special. I will say, however, his messurables are very good for a DT — however he’s not a DT in the NFL, he’s a DE and the Bucs said a stand up edge rusher, by those standards his measurables are fine, but nothing special.
I hope I’m wrong about Hall and the Bucs know what they’re doing, because my take on Wyatt certainly isn’t unique just to me. BUT, again, I’ll point out that there are a lot of ‘experts’ out there that really love Hall as a prospect, so it’s also not like Licht pulled a guys name out of a hat, either.
May 7th, 2022 at 5:29 pm
Hall was apparently their desired selection from the start based on position at 27.
Licht felt confident Hall would still be there at 33 and pulled the trigger on a 6 spot trade down that netted him the very valuable 1st picks of days 2 and 3.
I’m sure there were good offers to trade down again from 33 – but Licht wisely took the guy they had targeted in the 1st round at #33 – saving a few Million over the course of 4 years vs selecting Hall at 27 which they were prepared to do…..
I’m guessing there were also offers to trade down from the 1st pick of the 4th round as well – which tells you how high TE Cade Otton must have been on Licht and Co’s board. And that pick was a “freebie”. So if Otton turns into a good player – it will be another sweet feather in JLs drafting cap.
Good drafting considering the terrible starting position.
I was really hoping for a defensive heavy draft in the early rounds. But Licht was obviously targeting specific players to fill specific holes and I will never complain about drafting for both sides of the trenches with 1st and 2nd picks.
May 7th, 2022 at 5:52 pm
Booger was an above average DL and didn’t play in Bucs playoff games or super bowl. He is not a professional scout or coach…so I will take the Bucs pick over his.
May 7th, 2022 at 6:55 pm
sasquatch is right. Booger is a paid talking head now.
May 7th, 2022 at 7:28 pm
Picking Hall vs targeting Wyatt or Winfrey; that’s an interesting debate for sure. What none of us know, and likely the Bucs do know, is whether Suh will be back. Since they picked Hall, I’m guessing Suh might be back.
May 7th, 2022 at 7:35 pm
Booger would be the worst GM in the league, like Matt Millen bad, taking fourth round prospects in the first or at the top of the second round.
The Bucs got a guy with a first-round grade with pick #33. Now that’s value, and why Jason Licht is a top five GM in this league. Plus he scored an extra starter at left guard in Goedeke via that same trade back. You can’t beat that.
May 7th, 2022 at 8:05 pm
At the end of the day this pick will be judged in comparision to Wyatt.
Wyatt is the guy many Bucs fans were calling for. Hoping he would slip to us. Licht passed on Wyatt and if he is much better then Hall it will look like a bad trade from Licht. Whether he had Wyatt on his board or not
May 7th, 2022 at 8:39 pm
If Geraldine and Booger wanted Licht to do the Winfrey move at 33, and he went like 100 — why are we not surprised? There’s two supremely talented underachievers . I’m gad the Bucs have Licht and those two buffoons have a microphone.
May 7th, 2022 at 8:44 pm
I think of the old Ron Wolf quote to the Green Bay media, “If you knew what I know, you wouldn’t take him either” (or something to that effect) when drafting or not drafting some of these guys. It also helps that Hall had more sacks (6) in one year than Wyatt had in 4 years (5).
May 7th, 2022 at 9:05 pm
As long as Suh re-signs, I see no problem with passing on DT Winfrey in favor of taking TE Otton. Like Rod, been saying since Day 1 that Hall is a DE/OLB who can play inside some, not a DT who can play outside some. But if Suh doesn’t re-sign, we just screwed the pooch & can probably kiss any SB dreams good-bye for this year. Pass rush will be our Achilles Heel without Suh.
May 7th, 2022 at 9:28 pm
They had to get a TE out of this draft. Who knows, if Otton had been gone or TE wasn’t a need, Winfrey may have been an option…
May 7th, 2022 at 9:31 pm
Hall played the majority of his snaps against the B gap. That is a D-line position. That is not an OLB position. Maybe DR will be correct and he will play OLB in the majority of his snaps but that is not what he did in college. JTS will be playing outside of him on the majority of snaps is my guess.
May 7th, 2022 at 10:02 pm
Pat Kirwan also said teams would regret not taking Winfrey. Winfrey had more sacks and TFLs in one season than Jordan Davis and Wyatt had in their careers. I’m not saying that I know who will be the best NFL player but I know who had better college numbers. We definitely need to get Suh back
May 7th, 2022 at 10:06 pm
IMHO, we should have taken Wyatt vs drafting Otten.
May 7th, 2022 at 10:08 pm
It all comes down to Sunday Afternoon.
May 7th, 2022 at 10:40 pm
Booger was an average DT in the NFL, the year bucs won the Super Bowl I don’t think booger Even played at all if any that year. He knows nothing about talent. McCoy pleaseee, constantly trying to remain in the news looking for a job. While he was better then booger he also thought Spence was a great player along with mr average Kwon Alexander….stick to riding the bus and not driving.
May 7th, 2022 at 10:48 pm
If you look at the scouting reports, there were questions about Wyatt and Winfrey. Wyatt only had a few sacks in his final season, disruptive, but not really a great pass rusher. Winfrey, similar but with more questions about his instincts and awareness.
I think Hall ticked many boxes for Licht and Bowles. They knew they wanted a DT. He is more of a pass rusher, position flexibility, unusual build good for mismatches. But it’s also true that the others look more NFL ready.
We’ll see.
May 7th, 2022 at 11:23 pm
Wasn’t Travis Jones available in the 3rd? That’s the double up we were looking for. Hall, Goedeke, Jones then Otton in the 4th. I hope White is a stud RB but if Suh isn’t back they needed to double dip more than they needed to add an RB to the Lenny Vaughn Gio room.
May 7th, 2022 at 11:32 pm
We will regret not taking Wyatt at 27. Plain and simple!
May 8th, 2022 at 7:05 am
Geno711 … ‘Hall played the majority of his snaps against the B gap. That is a D-line position. That is not an OLB position.’
Obviously just my perspective Geno, but it seems to me that Todd Bowles loves to mix-it-up when it comes to assignments (thus what I call the ‘3-4 hybrid’). Guys who give him the flexibility to do that (like JPP did?) get to stay in there quite a bit it seems. JTS looks like he provides that flexibility, but not as much as I’m hoping Logan Hall will.
Along those lines, I don’t see Hall as being an OLB (like Shaq is IMO). I do see him being a ‘hybrid’ DE/OLB (like I considered JPP to be). He’s got the size it appears to play inside quite a bit (so did JPP at one point), but I still think he’ll get more snaps outside (in the DE/OLB role).
I also expect though that much of that will depend on (1) how effective Vea is going forward & how much time he spends on the field; and (2) re-signing Suh OR finding a DT of similar talent. My bottom line I guess is that Todd Bowles is gonna have a field day ASSUMING that Suh re-signs (and I’m convinced that he will).
May 8th, 2022 at 8:49 am
@DR
Thanks for your perspective. It may certainly be that way.
IMO, I do think Hall will be playing some DE but not many OLB positions in the Buc’s defense. I agree that JPP was used as a DE/OLB hybrid these last few years. Not sure that I want to place Hall into that role just because that was JPP’s role.
What is the percentage of plays that the Bucs run a nickel defense? 60?, 70?, or 80? percent of snaps that the Bucs use a nickel defense. It seems then that most of the time that we use a nickel defense, the Bucs tend to rush four guys from a defensive line position.
When that happens, I expect (based upon college) that Hall would line up more over the B gap and someone like JTS to line up outside of him as the 4th guy on the line and pass rusher. Although JPP did come inside on some plays, I tend to think that a high percentage of his plays were outside and more at the C gap level on those nickel defense plays. That is where I expect JTS to be lined up this year.
I am not saying that Hall will never be the outside guy. I just think he will play inside a lot more than outside in this defensive scheme. So to me he clearly fits Bowles concept of DT/DE hybrid but not a DE/OLB hybrid.
So when you equate him being a hybrid, I do not disagree. I see JPP was a DE/OLB hybrid in the Bucs defense the last few years and I see Hall as being a DT/DE hybrid in the Bucs defenses these next few years.
May 8th, 2022 at 9:07 am
I was looking to double up on D line with either Jones or Winfrey after drafting Hall. We still need help up front so keep an eye out for who we sign or trade for over the next couple months. This is not a Super Bowl front 7 with our current roster.
May 8th, 2022 at 11:46 am
Geno711 … ‘So when you equate him being a hybrid, I do not disagree. I see JPP was a DE/OLB hybrid in the Bucs defense the last few years and I see Hall as being a DT/DE hybrid in the Bucs defenses these next few years.’
Wow, now you’ve really got me wondering what role(s) Hall was drafted to play in this defense. I hadn’t really been considering JTS too much in this equation, but certainly should have since JTS & Hall are both ‘the youngsters’ in this DLine. They’re both a lot bigger than typical OLBs (Hall – 6’6″ & 283 lbs; JTS – 6’5″ & 259 lbs although it sounded earlier like the Bucs have gotten him to ‘beef up’ this off-season).
The percentage of time the Bucs use nickel could very well be in the 60-80% range; I have no clue but it makes sense since opponents love to pass against us so much. I admittedly don’t have the background that guys like you & Cobraboy & several others do to be able to decipher some of those formations. One site that I think is cool though is http://www.madden-school.com/playbooks but I have no idea how accurate it is (interesting way to describe each team’s offensive & defensive formations though). The complexity of today’s defenses just blows my mind.
May 8th, 2022 at 3:01 pm
I think Gholston on signed a one year deal, I woud not have been upset if they doubled up, that’s what Dominik would’ve done
May 10th, 2022 at 7:28 am
Booger was not very good as a Buccaneer. What did he ever do to win games? Lined up next to Sapp, 2hat did Booger do? I don’t recall him doing anything but forcing the team to cut one of our better FA DT’s in Culpepper. Should have kept Pepper and wiped off the booger. Hard to make plays from the IR bench.