Put Vernon Hargreaves On The Trading Block

October 13th, 2019

Yes, the totality of Vernon Hargreaves’ Bucs career has earned the “B” word.

As the No. 11 overall pick in the 2016 NFL Draft, Hargreaves is a bust.

Just ask yourself what his trade value is? Joe will answer it for you, just about nothing.

The fifth-year option in Hargreaves’ contract next season is worth about $9 million to $10 million. And there’s about zero chance the Bucs actually cough that up. That’s not what you pay a cornerback who might be a decent nickel or a solid No. 3 on a good team.

Tampa Bay drafted cornerbacks Sean Murphy-Bunting (second round) and Jamel Dean (third round) this offseason. And Bucco Bruce Arians calls Carlton Davis his best cornerback. The writing is in thick red marker on the wall when it comes to Hargreaves. So Joe thinks the Bucs should start shopping Hargreaves tomorrow.

Maybe there’s a GM who loved him in the draft or a coach who thinks he’s been undercoached in Tampa. Maybe the Bucs can score a sixth-round pick from a needy team. (Remember, there was actually a coach dumb enough to give former Bucs rock star general manager Mark Dominik a second-round pick for a stiff like Gaines Adams.)

Joe simply cannot think of one reason not to shop Hargreaves. No, Joe didn’t write “cut the guy tomorrow.” Joe just can’t see Hargreaves in the team’s future so cut the cord now and get something in return.

That’s typically what smart teams do with players that have no real value to the organization.

The trade deadline is Oct. 29.

174 Responses to “Put Vernon Hargreaves On The Trading Block”

  1. Rayjay1122 Says:

    No GM in his right mind would trade for this burnt toast.

  2. AlteredEgo Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation. Says:

    Using the same evaluation….put Jameis on the trading block…2 players to the same team for one pick in return

  3. tmaxcon Says:

    Trade…. joe you a funny guy…. what are you hoping to get in return a fish head?

  4. Duthsty Rhothdes Says:

    Headline should read: Fire Jason Licht

  5. D-Rome Says:

    Waiting on Bonzai to try and convince us that Backstabbin’ Jason Licht is a good GM.

    It’s safe to say the entire 2016 draft class was a bust. It’s not surprising he didn’t hit on one guy. For all of you that have blamed coaching over the years it’s evident the one constant thing holding this team back, besides Jay-Miss WinsTOn, is Jason Licht.

    The Bucs could not get a 7th rounder for him. He sucks and doesn’t deserve to be on the field.

  6. Capt. Tim Says:

    Meybe we could trade him, for some scouting reports of Next years QB class.
    Doubt hes worth it.
    He was too short and too slow the day they drafted him.
    He hasnt grown or sped up.

  7. AwShbucs Says:

    Trade him for a 7th round pick and a washing machine.

  8. tmaxcon Says:


    Im pretty sure if bonzi was a gm he’d give 2 first round picks for vh3bust and hire 813bucboi to coach db’s in a wasted attempt to resurrect vh3bust failed career

  9. Tampabuscsbro Says:

    that’s the thing Joe we aren’t a smart team because forest is still our GM.


  10. JimmyJack Says:

    Somebody would trade for him. Maybe like a 6th rounder or something. Quite frankly I don’t care.

    Either trade him or bench him. He’s terrible and looks incapable of making a play on the ball.

    Any way you slice it there is no way this guy should be on the team next year for 9M……..Now with today’s loss we are a reeling team that needs to plan for the future. Developing a younger player in Vernon’s position is the best move that’s in this franchises best interest.

  11. JimmyJack Says:

    Awsh…..I like it. Would the NFL grant eligibility for the washing machine to play RT?

  12. SteveK Says:

    We picked 9th overall
    In that draft, traded back to 11 w the bears (for picks used to draft Aguayo via trade up), and took Heargraves. I claymores for Tunsil.

    Imagine if we traded Tunsil, and not Heargraves. Dude doesn’t even get one first round pick.

  13. Chuckstutz Says:

    The epitome of choosing to suck. Week in week out.

    Jamis is inaccurate in 50% of his throws. Sorry my towel has been thrown on him. As my daddy used to say he can’t hit a cow in the ass with a bass fiddle.

    Over throw, under throw, to far in front, to far behind. Maddening.

  14. Pewter power Says:

    Who’s gonna trade for that?

  15. Bucamania Says:

    Just cut his arse. No one wants him. Soft and slow. Never gets his head around to actually make a play on the ball. Another Licht bust.

  16. Denjoe Says:

    Duthsty Rhothdes Says:
    October 13th, 2019 at 3:07 pm
    Headline should read: Fire Jason Licht


  17. Greg Says:

    Here comes the gator hater! I knew Vernon Hargraves picture would be up at least three times this week. He’s been struggling badly but so has everybody else in the secondary. We don’t have a pass rush unless we blitz half the team. The defense has a lot of problems but they did not throw five interceptions today and fumbled the ball twice. Maybe Jose put James on the trading block

  18. Jean Lafitte Says:

    Put Jameis out there. Bet there will be no takers unless they can steal him away for a PBJ sandwich.

  19. Sydney Says:

    “Maybe there’s a GM who loved him in the draft or a coach who thinks he’s been undercoached in Tampa.”


    He’ll be out of the NFL within 2 years. Book it.

  20. Doctor Stroud Says:

    They risked it and still got no biscuit.

  21. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    Actually, Joe…..Gaines Adams wasn’t a “stiff” when we traded him…..but he did become one later…..yes, I know that’s insensitive…but Joe could have found another way to describe him.

    As for VH3…..

    There are many who should be on the trading block…..Surely, someone wants “America’s QB” on their team.

    Joe wrote one article on JW’s turnovers…..and multiple articles trying to blame other’s for the loss.

    VH3, Coaches, Sports Science, Defense, Oline, Scotty Miller, Mike Evans, Bobo….and Princess Di…….good candidates.

  22. Orange21 Says:

    Can the bucs start the massage table. At least that would push back on the o line

  23. Denjoe Says:

    Trade Licht!

  24. Atrain40 Says:

    The 2016 draft was an epic bust. Maybe the worst ever in VH, Agouyo, benenoch, Vitale and Spence.

  25. Joseph Mamma Says:

    Yep shop him. First call should be to the GM of the Tampa Bay Vipers.

  26. Conte Piscatelli Says:

    Seriously, everybody keeps throwing out these names like any other team would actually trade for then. Vh3, OJ, heck even JW3, yes they have names because they were 1st round picks, but anyone who watched today’s game wouldn’t offer a bag of chips for these guys. They have bad contracts, and declining play. Not really a recipe for a good trade.

  27. Boltsfan17 Says:

    Zero trade value. Zero. Not much of a market for an undersized, slow, soft cornerback.

    He’s just another example of Licht’s inability to spot talent if it car-jacked him.

  28. ElioT Says:

    This isn’t Madden Joe.

    No one is trading ANYTHING for VH3, especially with the tape he’s put out these last few weeks and how horrible the rest of our corners are.

    It’d be different if Vernon was a luxury on a stacked secondary.


    This is even more of a indictment on #lichtmyb**ls!

    The Bucs are strapped for cash and have maybe a handful of players with any trade value and those guys are much needed.

    Jason has got to go, YOU SUCK at your job dude, awful, embarrassing, shameful.

  29. Conte Piscatelli Says:

    I will say, VH3 should go punch the equipment guy in the face for forgetting to put the spikes on his shoes, that dude had more slip and falls than the Dolman law group would know what to do with.

  30. ElioT Says:

    @Conte Piscatelli

    LMAO, that’s good stuff bro!


  31. dmatt Says:

    I agree let’s be done with Hargreaves. It don’t take Einstein to figure that he’s not nfl material. He’s worst than former buc corners Myron Lewis n EJ Biggers. His best play since being drafted will be the 4th n goal game winning tackle on McCafferty. He can put that on his resume. Hargreaves is a BUST!

  32. Kgh4life Says:

    VHIII definitely is a bust, should move to nickel. Off topic, but the Bucs are in a difficult situation with Bruce Arians. It is becoming more clearer that Jameis Winston is not the answer at QB, so do the Bucs draft one this coming April? BA has stated that he’s not rebuilding, however, drafting a QB signals rebuilding and the team has major weaknesses.

  33. Frank Pillow Says:

    If there was even a modicum of accountability inside OBP, VHIII and Bobo would be released by the time the plane lands back in Tampa. But there’s not- not even an ounce’s worth. Has been that way throughout the Licht era.

  34. Jerry Says:

    No one in their right mind is going to take him!

  35. BuccoBoras Says:

    I’m done following this negative lazy site. I think you guys like it when the Bucs struggle. If they’d be playing to their potential, you hacks would have nothing to say. Jameis is killing us, true. And I mean killing us. But all you complained about the whole offseason was how awful our DLine was. Why don’t you talk about how awesome we’ve been against the run. How many Tackles for loss Nassib had today. How many errant passes Shaq forced. What about Rojo? You whined about not drafting another RB. There’s a lot of positive stuff to say about the Bucs. This site is the Den of Depression.

  36. Tampabuscsbro Says:

    BuccoBoras we stop the run from scrimmage yes. but it means nothing cause we can’t rush the passer or defend the pass.

  37. Howard Cosell Says:

    Hargreaves is a symptom of the disease not a cause

  38. Wesley Says:

    It’s time to rebuild. Enough wasting years telling us we just need to “re-tool”, no, it’s time to rebuild.

  39. destinjohnny Says:

    I am sure we will get a first round pick for him……
    Just what everyone needs a slow small corner who cant cover.
    Memo to Jason>> watch sec football and have more then one scout in the southeast….
    Also don’t forget to eat, sleep and walk and breath.

  40. lambchop Says:

    Cut him now because we have so much depth at corner? He’s not even being used as a nickel db, he’s being used as an outside corner.

    Who the F is gonna step up? Secondary is already shi+. Cut him at the end of the season. Every other team knows the Bucs will cut him loose at the end of the season anyway.

  41. CPN Says:

    Have the Glazers sell this franchise and release the front office.

  42. Hodad Says:

    How about we hire a new GM, and let him make the decisions on who gets traded, and who’s worth keeping? It’s not one player, it’s a lot of players who Licht has built this team with. Starting with Licht’s failure Jameis Winston. I don’t trust Licht to do any better picking our next corner, or QB. It starts with Licht, he needs to be fired. Hopefully that will be my xmas present from the Glazers, fire Licht!!

  43. JimmyJack Says:

    BuccoBoras hang in there man……..Yes there were a few positives today but overall it was really embarrassing. It’s hard to expect anybody to not dwell on the crap parts of this team that are now getting exposed weekly.

    It’s just looking at this point that the Bucs do not have the answers. The parts of the game we struggle with are not getting any better. They are actually getting worse(expect kicking). Very hard to see any hope for this season at all right now with so many weaknesses……..I think if their is any we will see it coming off this bye. It’s like a do or die game and again will be before Halloween.

    Guess we will see what happens but even if it goes well I got no trust in the QB so it’ll just been waiting til when Winston losses us another game.

    And I’m one of the rare few optimistic fans and that the best I got for ya. That’s freaking sad dude.

  44. Ben real Says:

    Lmao no ones gonna trade for garbage

  45. firethecannons Says:

    get 2 nickels cause its better than nothing

  46. Stevebobucsfan Says:

    Okay Bucs fans I have a few questions. 1. Jameis has been very inconsistent no matter who the HC or OC has been Should we give Him the big bucks next year and see if BA can change his inconsistency. I am in favor of letting Hardgraves, Shu Dotson and maybe Gholston go at seasons end. What’s your take on this Buc fans

  47. Aceofaerospace Says:

    Rewrite this article and change the name to Jameis Winston. Same applies, try to find a sucker to give us anything for this hot garbage.

  48. JameisHas2Go Says:

    Vernon Hargreaves has value. It is not commensurate with his draft position but he has value. A team that needs a corner, will trade for him. Look at how well Eli Apple has played since his trade from NYG. NYG got a 4th and 7th round pick for him.

    Vernon has been more productive then Eli Apple was in NY. So I think the Bucs could get something close to that.

    Chiefs, Bears, Eagles, Vikings all could use help in the secondary and may be willing to trade a pick or two for him.

  49. TonyC Says:

    I’ve harped on this pony many times before but who cares we’re just fans with opinions. This GM, coach and player personnel team f’ed up royally this year. I complained about this last year they refuse to bring in veteran db’s and safeties. The last time this d was decent was that stretch in 16 and we had at least 2 vets back there. One was MacDougald. When we were decent on defense in 2010 we had Ronde and Talib. In 08 last playoff appearance we had Ronde, Talib, Tanard Jackson (head case) but had 5 Ints in 09. How in the hell do they expect a bunch of rookies, couple of second year players and an unproven, under achieving vet like VH 3 to hold up the secondary in a new system with an uneven pass rush? This is mostly on Licht who has made poor personnel decisions on defense particularly in the back field.

  50. Jonathan Limpchimpi Says:

    Just another HighLicht, high pick. Future’s so bright…ya gotta wear night vision goggles.

  51. JimmyJack Says:

    Steven…..My answer is to let the season play out.

    They decided to enter the season with Winston and we don’t got any potential behind him so you let him finish it.

    Right now he has been awful is 2 of six starts so it’s basically a mountain for him to overcome. Personally I got no confidence he can or will do it but I’ll give him the punchers chance for the time being. After a larger body of work I’ll make the future decision at QB. Looking bleek though.

    Reguards to your other question I’m not sure why you are worried about DL at this moment. LBs CBs and Safties are a much bigger concern for me………The one decision that I’m looking at right now is moving on from Vernon. Need to start thinking about the future at that position and I see absolutely no chance Vernon will be back next year. If they wanna give him the two week bye to prepare and see if he can improve that would be the longest leash he should get…….which he really hasn’t earned.

  52. JameisHas2Go Says:

    TonyC is correct. I think they knew the secondary was going to struggle. But felt that there would be more pass rush. Suh has done nothing really. Vita Vea is run stuffer only at this point and once Barrett is blocked there is little left of the pass rush.

  53. Pickgrin Says:

    “a stiff like Gaines Adams”

    wow Joe – that’s pretty callous….

  54. Easy Says:

    Put him on the bench or in the slot.

  55. 813bucboi Says:

    Trade VHG….

    Won’t fix CD and SMB getting beat or the pass rush…..


  56. 813bucboi Says:

    Might as well trade Winston too…..

    He ain’t in the future either….


  57. Go Bucs 72 Says:

    Hargreaves is slow, weak, and short.

  58. SJ_Bucsfan Says:

    If there is any such thing as accountability on this team there will be a full row of bench warmers in Tennessee. The GM can also sit there too!

  59. Gofortheface30 Says:

    What are your thoughts 813gayboi?

  60. OBP Says:

    Cut him outright, he’s short, slow, and gets beat up on the regular. Start Dean on the outside with Davis the rest of the way and have SMB at the slot.

  61. Nptbuc Says:

    I have to believe ( with the exception of a couple of posters here) that there would be no tears shed if a trade was made. Do it today if possible.He has proven, game after game, that the NFL is way too fast for him. He must be one of the teams leading tacklers though as every QB in the league throws at him. Wonder why that is? I personally can’t stand the way he celebrates when his man falls down, is over thrown, drops a catch etc. All instances where he had absolutely NO impact on the play! Someone should explain to him that you celebrate when YOU actually do something to defend a pass. No class guy.

  62. JimmyJack Says:

    813…..Say what you will about Bunting but I won’t let you dog on my boy Carlton.

    He is a solid football player and plays good coverage. He plays his position well and I would wager he had defended more passes the the entire rest of team combined. If not close to it. When balls are completed on him they are frequently contested and he is rarely caught beaten from poor technique and is only coverage defender I could say that about.

    Your comment is very unfair to Carlton. His one knock right now is pentalties. I don’t think he committed any today which is a nice crap sign.

  63. Bucsfanman Says:

    813- there’s no hiding the embarrassment. He was bad! While, overall, the defense wasn’t terrible, few teams are going to overcome SIX turnovers.
    I should’ve stayed out fishing this morning! What an embarrassment!
    I wonder how many people still feel like Jameis is a $30 million QB?!
    Hargreaves’ days are numbered in TB.


  64. NPRSageBoy Says:

    Seriously, what is he worth? You might the thread string janitor who cleans toilets at the SuperDome from the Saints.

    He’s worthless; release him and move on.

  65. Buccaneerscotty Says:

    Trade him and America’s turn over machine for Andy Dalton or maybe Brett Favre?

  66. Ricky Says:

    Trade Jameis so he can go and win a Super Bowl according to DB55. Trade this bum too.

  67. JimmyJack Says:

    My best positive today comes from D.White. Admittely he had a bad game today but I saw something in the second half. I seriously think something just clicked for him out there today.

    I can tolerate his bad game today if it serves as a learning experience that he can grow on. But it must continue next week….well in two weeks. We could really have something here if he can build off of that 2nd half. This team could really use it to.

  68. Mike10 Says:

    Who remembers the rumors surround this pick when it was first made: that Licht was friends w Hargreaves’ father which many worried led to picking him w the 11th overall pick.

    Fire Licht already, stop wasting years of my life watching this perpetual dumpster fire.

  69. Bird Says:


    Why did you change your name from unbelievable ?
    Don’t be scared.
    Bucboi is a gator fan
    You are a Nole fan

  70. lowercaseg Says:

    Trade OJ while he has some value

  71. Slugglife Says:

    There will never be an actual pass rush when receivers are immediately open. The two units work together. You get coverage sacks. The Dline has played well.

    And 5 FN interceptions. Two fumbles for Bobo. Two for Winston. 7 turnovers. Two picks on first play of drives.
    Yeah- no pass rush. The defense didn’t even get have a drink before going back out. And you expect those guys to get constant pressure?

    Ok. And I told y’all VH should have been gone last week.

  72. Mike10 Says:


    Trade OJ?? Wtf, he’s one of our cheapest and more valuable players. Trade the coaching staff that can’t figure out how to use him.

    And if I hear one more coach talk about the need for a third receiving target I’m going to lose my mind.

  73. Slugglife Says:

    No sht Mike. We have two great TEs. Yet they have Jameis throwing across the field to midget WRs.

  74. Petty Officer Buc Says:

    As soon as ESPN Stephen A Smith and Max Kellerman started to praise Winston I knew he was due for a meltdown this Sunday.

  75. Jeebs the Honey Bear Says:

    When a two-time Coach of the Year and an alleged “defensive guru” cannot get wins out of your squad, you clearly do not have good enough talent. Can we finally all agree that Jason Licht is an absolute garbage man? FIRE HIM NOW.

  76. Broodlaw Says:

    The guy literally stiff-armed himself on that coverage against McCaffrey today lol. Lot of work to do in the secondary, no veteran voice either hurts, though Vernon is definitely a bust and looks lost on every play he’s in on. Don’t think we get a draft pick though, I’d just cut his ass off the team and hopefully we can convince either Arizona, Jacksonville or Denver to trade a corner at a reasonable price.

  77. DB55 Says:


    Matt Ryan threw 5 interceptions against the Cardinals in 2012 and won the game.

    an NFL team that has had a quarterback throw five interceptions in a game had won eight times, tied twice and lost 145 times (from 1966 to last weekend). That’s a winning percentage of .058. Maybe not impossible, but highly unlikely.

    Matt Ryan and the Atlanta Falcons made the “not impossible, but highly unlikely” a definite “yes” last Sunday when they defeated the Arizona Cardinals 23-19 despite Ryan throwing five interceptions in the contest.

    Ryan’s first pass of the game was intercepted as were two more of his first-quarter passes. The Falcons recovered from a 13-0 first quarter deficit to win their ninth game of the season.

    Your turn my friend….

    Who is the last qb to gets sacked 13 times in 2 games not counting pressures or hit and win said games? ….I’ll wait.

  78. JimmyJack Says:

    Mike 10……..Why is OJ so valuable? Has he ever had a 100 yard game in his career? Ever get a 10 catch game? Ever 2 TD game? And I’m asking. I don’t know.

    Just saying I saw him make some real nice plays before. Would never say I saw him take over a game like other great TEs.

    Just a though that maybe he not as valuable as they say he is. Is it all possible he is a bit overrated? I know I’ll get likely killed for saying this and that’s fine. But what’s this dominate game he took over?

    Two things that might be holding him back is his hands. I personally don’t like them. And his ability to make big catches in traffic. Don’t think he is that guy…….Them two things are essientially to great TEs in mine opinion.

  79. Slugglife Says:

    I don’t have cable anymore so I didn’t have to suffer through watching that whole7turnover debacle. I’m JFC, 7 drives ended in turnovers. We score on any one of those drives and it’s a totally different ball game.

    Kudos to y’all for sitting through that BS. Wasn’t much better listening to Gene and Dave either.

    I have no idea how JW continues on from here. This is close to hitting the low point of your career.

  80. Ndog Says:

    I just wonder why people give Evans a pass when he drops the ball, quits on routes, and can’t break a tackle to save his life. HE WAS HORRIBLE TODAY!!!!

  81. JimmyJack Says:

    Ndog……Nobody gave Evans a pass. That just simply did not happen.

  82. Buc believer Says:

    Joe there is no GM dumb enough to trade for Vernon Toast Heargraves. It would take the dumbest GM in the league and we already have him.

  83. Ndog Says:

    This team cannot block, cannot rush the passer, cannot cover, cannot return punts, cannot catch, cannot make good decisions. Other than that were great!

  84. Slugglife Says:

    I think ME will be the next player to demand a trade. Not sure he enjoys losing and for some reason he can’t get get a fade route in the red zone.

    Tallest guy on the field can’t get a jump ball thrown to him. Guess BL doesn’t have that play in his arsenal.

  85. Stevebobucsfan Says:

    One thing that’s frustrating to me with the Bucs these days is, we have QBs like Mahomes. Mayfield, Watson and a few others that’s been in the league for less time than Jameis and they all are playing good football, not great all of them but good. I love Jameis and I know he can play the position but it’s inconsistency that’s frustrating me

  86. JameisAlmighty! Says:

    And get what? A case of footballs and used jock straps?

  87. Ndog Says:

    Stevebobucsfan Says:
    October 13th, 2019 at 5:23 pm
    One thing that’s frustrating to me with the Bucs these days is, we have QBs like Mahomes. Mayfield, Watson and a few others that’s been in the league for less time than Jameis and they all are playing good football, not great all of them but good. I love Jameis and I know he can play the position but it’s inconsistency that’s frustrating me

    You know Mayfield threw 3 picks today and his team has the same record as us right? Way to talk out your a$$ bro.

  88. JimmyJack Says:

    Sluggish I counted nine Winston mistakes that cost our team points today. I resorted to coming to this site and ranted Midway through the third and quit counting but I know it wound up more then 9.

    If Winston can limit them mistakes and save us the points the game is likely a 1 score game most of the second half.

    It was really hard to watch. We had a real bad 1st half and Winston had the offense moving finally and a chance to give us all the momentum at the 2 minute warning and then he fumbled on two consecutive play…….it was on 1st and 2nd down and in FG range. Each one was the result of him trying to force a play when none was there. That was the Turning point of the game

  89. Slugglife Says:

    400 yards passing today. With 5 interceptions and a fumble lost.

    Now let’s imagine what JW would have done only throwing 2 picks. We may have been at 600+yards and likely a win.

  90. Slugglife Says:

    So he blew two chances for FG withturnovers. 6 potential points.

    I’m just amazed he had 400 passing with 6 turnovers, 6 sacks.would have rather seen 12 sacks and one turnover. Let me take another sip of unicorn piss.

  91. Ndog Says:

    JimmyJack Says:
    October 13th, 2019 at 5:28 pm
    Sluggish I counted nine Winston mistakes that cost our team points today. I resorted to coming to this site and ranted Midway through the third and quit counting but I know it wound up more then 9.

    If Winston can limit them mistakes and save us the points the game is likely a 1 score game most of the second half.

    It was really hard to watch. We had a real bad 1st half and Winston had the offense moving finally and a chance to give us all the momentum at the 2 minute warning and then he fumbled on two consecutive play…….it was on 1st and 2nd down and in FG range. Each one was the result of him trying to force a play when none was there. That was the Turning point of the game

    JimmyJack that is true BUT he then threw a ball on a dime that would have been a 85 yard TD and Evans dropped it. That was just as huge yet no one seems to care about that. Weird?

  92. soggy Says:

    could it be everything we are witnessing is part of a bigger plan to get the bucs moved to london, right about now most fans would help them pack, nice new stadium over there UMM,,,

  93. Slugglife Says:


    You got it all wrong dog. Evans gets no pass. Haven’t seen one person give anybody a pass. Receivers not winning balls and getting YAC has always been criticized.

  94. Slugglife Says:

    Great receivers win those battles. The only pass I give Evans is that BL simply refuses to get him the fade route jump ball in the red zone.

  95. JimmyJack Says:

    Not really sluglife…….Those 400 yards are likely misleading. We did get one 1st down right after a ST turnover. Other then that our only other First down didn’t come until well into the 2nd.

    Maybe look at the 1st half stats for better perspective of the game flow?

    If we were gonna win today it would likely of been a defensive slugfest. But if you are gonna win a game like that you choke up the football that many times. 4 in the first half I believe. I bet you turn that game into a low scoring dogfight and our defense forces Kyler Allen into a few pivotal mistakes. But it turned into a basic blowout instead.

  96. Ndog Says:

    Where show me the article about Evans on this site today?

  97. Bird Says:

    Imagine if Jameis Winston graduates from Alcorn State or North Dakota State (like Wentz)

    Do you think all these excuses from the same posters above would even exist ?

    Simple answer : Hell no. He would be getting ripped from these same posters years ago

  98. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    We had 7 turnovers & the answer is to trade VH3?…..OK….maybe that’s one of the 37 answers to improvement.

    Actually the two fumbles hurt more than the 5 picks combined…..

    Do we even have a backup punt returner….if so, someone tell me who it is…

    Is it our “Maytag Repairman”….Kick returner?

  99. Ndog Says:

    Why does the school someone went to matter? Childish comment but then again consider the source.

  100. Slugglife Says:

    Then your beef is with Joe. Maybe you need to target the person you are frustrated with.

    I just assumed you were talking about posters here. All good.

  101. Ndog Says:

    Sluggglife it’s both show me the comment on this thread before I posted on him that is ripping Evans

  102. Slugglife Says:

    Close. But the picks happened on the first play of drives. That makes your big boy dline a bit tired. All of the turnovers hurt equally in regard to losss of the field position battle, which as you know, is huge.

  103. JimmyJack Says:

    Yes Ndog…….Our WR made a crucial mistake today. And our QB made over 9.

    And unfortunately for Winston QB is a much more important position & it is much harder to overcome mistakes from his position.

    I’m sorry if you think WRs have more of a impact on outcomes then QBs but your wrong.

    And again. Nobody has given Evans a pass. That has not just not happened. If you need a article for validation then I suggest you wait for it & I bet it comes……..Of not then call Joe put on it. Cause no one is giving a pass to Evans. Plus Joe is a huge Evans fan.

  104. Slugglife Says:

    Just FYI, this was an article on VH, and the sentiment issues in said article parrots what I said after last weeks embarrassing show for VH.

    Mike Evans sucked today. He’s playing uninspired. His body language sucks. He’s not physical enough. He’s not giving 100%.

    Anything else need to be said?

  105. GhostofSchiano Says:

    So in practice BA whispers to wINTson, that vh3 guy sucks.

  106. JimmyJack Says:

    And I’m sorry Ndog but the truth is that turnovers hurt your team much more then drops.

    Yep Evans drop on that was one of the more costly drops you will ever see and he deserves every bit of critism that he gets.

    Yet turnovers will always mean much more to winning and losing then drops will. It has been that way for a hundred years bto. Time to face the facts.

  107. GhostofSchiano Says:

    I’ve had enough of Arizona Cardinals East.

    Maybe it’s time to blow the whole thing up and rebuild. Maybe, just maybe 9-10 players worth keeping. Maybe.

  108. Bob in Valrico Says:

    We didn’t get good play out from either of our corners ,IMO.
    Davis was trailing his man on several occasions and also gave up receptions.
    He has only three pass defenses through 6 games. Counting his penalties and
    suspension ,there are things he has to fix also.
    Vh3 has only two pass defenses , but one was a pick 6. He also had a game saving tackle. I think the fifth year option was a big mistake,because his size and speed are a liability on the outside.
    Move Vh3 to to slot for the rest of year..Time to take a more serious look at the 2019 drafted corners to find the best available corners to put on the field.

  109. Slugglife Says:

    Mike Evans sucked the high hard one last week too. It’s possible his ego can’t handle seeing Godwin thrive.

    Ego kills.

  110. Ndog Says:

    Evans was the cause of the first pick.
    Evans dropped a game changing bomb.
    Evans fails to come back on another crucial play that forced a failed 4th down attempt.
    Evans made zero effort on another deep ball where he basically stopped running.
    Evans didn’t even turn around on the last throw into the endzone.

    Thats a few more than one there JimmyJack and each of them had a A HUGE impact on this game.

  111. GhostofSchiano Says:


    ME knows the season is over, mid October as usual, and imaybe he’s thinking of being traded to a team that plays meaningful football in December and beyond.

  112. Defense Rules Says:

    Hello? VHIII wasn’t the CAUSE of today’s loss. No he shouldn’t be starting outside. Matter of fact, he shouldn’t be starting at all because he’s not the future. But to focus your fury on Vernon Hargreaves after such a terrible loss is misguided Joe.

    You know deep-down where to focus your disgust & anger, and contrary to what you might be thinking at the moment it’s not at Jameis for the turnovers … he is who he is. The one consistent trait we’ve seen from Jameis is INCONSISTENCY. And that was on display once again today.

    No, the ones who deserve your ire are ownership, management & coaching. Yes, ALL THREE. The Glazer Boyz may want to win, but they have zero clue how to go about it. Jason Lichtfoot may also want to win, but he has zero clue how to build a winning TEAM as a GM. And BA may talk a good game & have a nice resume (well-deserved in the past BTW), but his idea of ACCOUNTABILITY is far different than any of ours.

    The Bucs’ defense is coming along, but it’s got a young, inexperienced Secondary that just can’t ‘git-er-done’ right now. And oh ya, we lack a pass rush. That’s on the ones who put this team together … if you don’t have the horses, you don’t have the horses.

    The Bucs’ offense is an absolute disaster right now. It was SUPPOSED to be the strength of this team, and instead it’s become our greatest disappointment. The OLine is a disaster, our RBs are meh, we’ve got 2 studly WRs & 2 very good TEs who aren’t performing very well for the most part, and a QB who’s obviously developed ‘happy feet’. Jameis is the very definition of INCONSISTENT. From what I could see on TV today, it’s obvious that he’s not seeing the field; he’s developed ‘tunnel vision’ IMO. Time to give Ryan Griffin a crack at it. I’ve seen enough.

  113. Ndog Says:

    Jameis wasn’t great BUT when your #1 WR is crap, your TE just flat can’t catch, you can’t run the ball and you’re getting hit in 1-2 seconds every time you drop back what do can you expect from your QB regardless of what his name is?

  114. Bird Says:


    Still crying. Of course it matters. You have pretty much ripped every player not named Jameis. He is off limits. He won you a national championship.
    You are the definition of the word homer.

    Can you tell me to shut the f up again? That was awesome.
    You are so angry and violent today
    I’m pretty scared. I know you played jr high football

    Don’t worry Jameis will play good again and you can say I told you say. And I will wait for Bucs to lose and when Jameis has a less then stellar game I will await your excuses .

    And I know. It’s not his fault. It’s mine actually . See there you go… There’s a new one for you

  115. JimmyJack Says:

    We didn’t get blowed out today cause Evans dropped a ball. And don’t skip over the story of that drop cause their was one and that’s if Winston’s turnover doesn’t happen that drop is not nearly as critical. Bad QB play literally made that drop a much bigger play then it was.

    And personally I am mad at Evans a lot. I’ve said it in anther pist that he simply is not a clutch performer. He has choked before in clutch moment..Quite frankly Im questioning if we can ever win with this guy. Please tell me the big meaningful clutch catch Evans has ever made? Ever? I remember none. I do remember several other chokes however.

  116. JimmyJack Says:

    Ndog I don’t care about your points when you blame Evans for the first pick.

    You must hold the QB accountable. That’s just fare.

  117. Bucs911 Says:

    FYI the cardinals are hands down a much better team than the Bucs right now.

  118. Southfloridabuc Says:

    DB 55 you cant defend the undefendable but you go ahead and do it since you do know it all. btw dont forget the two fumbles he had yeah but still i am sure is the fault of smbdy else.

  119. tmaxcon Says:

    There is no franchise in any sport on any planet as f#$%ed up and incompetent as the glazer ran bucs. Period

  120. BucsFanForLife Says:

    Trade VHIII for a bag of footballs and be done with him

  121. Tampabuscsbro Says:




    GO BUCS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  122. Ndog Says:

    Bird you are so clueless. I rip players that need to be ripped, always have always will. I just point out all of them and don’t blame everything on one player. The fumble and the pick to LK were just flat bad plays but Evans was just as bad and he is said to be our best player. Plus show me a post with me ripping Godwin, Brate, Smith, Whitehead, Jensen or ROJO. I simply tell the truth cause I am not bias it brainwashed like many others cough cough you!

    Do you think Marpet, VH3, OJ, Evans, Davis, White, Wells, or Bobo played well today?

  123. JameisHas2Go Says:

    Mike Evans has been up and down the last 2 weeks, but it is not for a lack of effort. I told folks last year when Desean Jackson wanted Ryan Fitzpatrick, that Desean likes Jameis the man, but cannot abide the QB that is woefully inaccurate, costing him touches and touchdown dances. I have seen Mike wide open so many times over the years and be missed high and low and he has dealt with it. But even if you are making 20 million, you want to win and you want to produce, and you want your efforts to mean something. I think Mike has had it with Jameis the QB. He won’t say it publicly, but I have never heard him talk as glowing about Jameis as he did about Johnny Manziel when he was coming out of college.

    I feel like Mike needs to go some where else with an established QB that can help Mike take that next step.

  124. tmaxcon Says:


    Your spin and denial of what a total crapshow this franchise is so very adorable…. may i suggest you change your screen name to Excuse Master or Failure Defender….

  125. Tampabaybucfan Says:


    I feel your pain, ……but you have to accept the fact that Jameis simply hasn’t improved much as a QB…..
    Sure, he has great talent and can make great throws and has a competitive spirit.

    I have been a supporter all along and as long as he’s a Buc I will root for him to succeed but you lose some credibility trying to defend him on a game like he had today.

    His turnovers magnified the poor play around him

  126. Ndog Says:

    JimmyJack Says:
    October 13th, 2019 at 5:58 pm
    Ndog I don’t care about your points when you blame Evans for the first pick.

    You must hold the QB accountable. That’s just fare.

    So when the DB and the WR are at the same point when the ball is thrown and one player stands there and waits for the ball and the other goes for the ball that’s the QBs fault?

    I’m sorry a QB is expecting his WR to you know TRY!

  127. JimmyJack Says:

    You wanna know what I expect from our QB? I expect him to not commit them two fumbles which I look back at the turning point of that game.

    I expect him to not be the biggest factor in us losing 2of 6 football games.

    If he don’t choke the ball up there we get points and it changes the complexion of the game. I expect him not to be that guy……If he don’t commit that fumble then I might give him the benefit of the doubt on a few of the other bad plays. But he did and deserves no benefit.

    And this was not a bad game…..This was another bad game…….He has a string of bad games and inconsistent career of bad football

  128. DB55 Says:

    The second fumble was 100% Winston’s fault.

    The first one there was a defender in the way of the screen pass and by the time he brought it down he was hit.

    The first pick was a perfect pass Mike has to catch that. Second arm was hit. The fifth mike didn’t even turn around smh. I don’t even remember the 3rd or 4th.

  129. JimmyJack Says:

    Ndog your recollection of that play is completely inaccurate.

    It was a bad decision that should of never been thrown. Mike was on a sit route. There was a slight window for completion but not when the ball was thrown.

  130. tmaxcon Says:


    Bucs have been fielding embarrassing football teams long before jameis will do so long after jameis…. outside of grudens-sapp glory year and McKay good year bucs have been a total embarrassment

  131. tmaxcon Says:

    Evans is not mentioned with the elites because he loses concentration far to often and rarely comes through in the clutch

  132. JimmyJack Says:

    DB55…..Perfect pass…..Almost too perfect. So perfect it was picked.

  133. JimmyJack Says:

    Tampabaybucfan……..Great comment and simply put. I fully agree.

  134. Duthsty Rhothdes Says:

    DR…. right on… point blank jason licht & bruce arians have ZERO clue how to build a winning franchise nor evaluate talent. Todd Bowles defense is mike smith bad; byron is a terrible OC.

  135. tmaxcon Says:

    You can’t tell if jameis improves or not behind a back up xfl offensive line that licht and the glazers rolled with…. jameis is an easy target but glazers and licht set jameis up to fail behind that pathetic offensive line, hiring a washed up has been and no running game…..

  136. Tampabuscsbro Says:

    Man these constant attacks by the Jameis defense force is something. Imagine putting all of your eggs into a dude who would be a marginally okay backup.

  137. Ndog Says:

    JimmyJack Says:
    October 13th, 2019 at 6:15 pm
    Ndog your recollection of that play is completely inaccurate.

    It was a bad decision that should of never been thrown. Mike was on a sit route. There was a slight window for completion but not when the ball was thrown.

    So I guess the head coach of the team is wrong as well cause he said exactly what I just said.

    You clearly have no idea what you are talking about sir.

  138. Ndog Says:

    For the record I am not defending Jameis I am pointing out that this team this loss is not a QB issue it is a team issue. When the team flat sucks the QB cannot function properly. Did he play well today not really BUT if the players around him performed better he would not have been in the positions to make some of the mistakes he makes. If you guys had it your way he would throw the ball 15-20 times a game.

  139. Anonymous Says:

    They should do a package deal. Trade VHIII and Winston for 6th rounder next year. That would be hard to get, but the Bucs need all they can get.

  140. Bob in Valrico Says:

    Evans should have made the catch,but he didn’t. Stuff happens. My question why he having to run downfield with his head bent backwards trying to hunt down where a pass is going. The best chance for a TD would be a pass toward the open field where Evans could not only adjust to pass but try and extend the play. I want him focused on the ball and whats in front of him. No question getting open for an over the shoulder catch increased the degree of difficulty. Question I have is this a designed play to limit the chance of an of an INT or is it up to Evans to find the ball and then try to make the play. I would like to see more passes toward the open part of the field.

  141. Jmarkbuc Says:


    All you ever do is defend JW. I hope you go with him when he leaves

  142. JimmyJack Says:

    Ndog……..I am not talking about what somebody said. I am talking about the play that happened.

    Don’t freaking insult my intelligence with PR responses.

    You go look at the play and tell me something tangible or shut your mouth. It was a sit route. That much is undenyable. Now go look at how long Mike had to sit and wait for the ball and you tell me if the timing looked crisp. Also let me know if their ever was a window for that ball. I sure saw one.

    Next please explain to me how Mike should be expected to make a break on a ball that isn’t thrown yet not know if his QB will throw it to the inside or outside.

    After that explain to me how he did not react to the pass that was thrown. I most certainly did see him react and work towards the ball.

    After all that you may please confirm to me how Bruce confirmed all of that in his presser……No need to let no it I will look it up myself……But I danged sure won’t have to because Bruce dang sure didn’t explain that much in a press conference comment.

    You’re full of it. Now go watch the play and give me something tangable…..I don’t buy BS.

  143. ElioT Says:

    We all need to stop the infighting, we’re all Bucs fans here or we wouldn’t spend 16 days every year totally immersed in a sport that none of us are paid the play.

    I rewatched the game.

    The Panthers were completely beatable today.

    Football is a “game of inches” right?

    Just a few mistakes here and there and you lose the game.

    The Bucs shut down CM, and the secondary wasn’t roasted as bad as they could have been.

    You gotta put this loss on Jameis and Bobo.

    Both had back to back fumbles/muffed punts and without those two mistakes the Bucs might have won the game.

    Bozo Wilson is horrible, can’t even believe he gets on the field for ST much less offensive snaps.

    Jameis has all the talent in the world to be a real franchise QB but he cannot consistently play quality football game to game or down in and down out.

    I get that the offensive line is not good, but Jameis second fumble and the Keuchly pick CANNOT HAPPEN! You can’t make those errors and expect to win.

    I can look past all the other picks and drops, but the QB touches the ball every snap on offense and you just cannot win consistently with play like that.

    Of course Jameis is capable of playing a clean game, he’s done it, but as the Bucs’ luck would have it, when he does so, someone else on the team has to always royally screw it up.

    Very hard to be a Bucs fan and this team will confuse and frustrate the hell out of fans.

    One thing that I’m not confused about is the FACT that Jason Licht is the worst GM in the NFL.

    This dude should be ashamed of himself on a professional level.

    He’s wasted more picks and salary then any Bucs GM in history.


    Go Bucs.

  144. JimmyJack Says:

    No need to link it**

  145. JimmyJack Says:

    Elliot…….It’s OK for fans to disagree and argue….. Try not to take it to 💓.

    I may be arguing with Ndog a bit here but we talking football. Not resorting to the childish namecalling ya see all the time.

    Maybe we got a little extra edge to our comments since it’s a loss but in the end we just talking football. Agree or disagree I can respect any good Buc fan that can have a nice clean argument over football.

  146. Bobby Says:

    It’s a shame we didn’t hire John Lynch. He apparently knows how to build a team.

  147. Ndog Says:

    Ok JimmyJack how about the player himself:


    Bucs WR Mike Evans talks about the interception on Jameis Winston’s first throw Sunday. “I’ve got to come back” to the ball, he says.

    Oops WRONG AGAIN tough guy.

  148. Bucs Fan Since ‘76 Says:

    D-Rome, respectfully, the one constant through this entire mess is the Glazers. They cannot run a professional sports business. They’ve even ruined Man U. Stu Sternberg is a dick, but he knows how to build a sports operation. Jeff Vinick is the entire package. The Glazers are clueless. They do not know football. They do not know who to hire, and they do not know how to hire. There is a rancid culture infecting the entire Bucs enterprise. Same as there was during the Culverhouse regime. I’ve seen both, and the only difference this time is that the Glazers are not philandering racists. If they won’t sell the team or bring back Rich McKay as the CEO to build an organization, or maybe lure Lynch back here, we are destined for continued failure.

  149. ElioT Says:

    Seems like everyone is such a rigid partisan on every issue these days including our beloved Bucs.

    1.) It’s not all Jameis’ fault

    2.) Jameis has been surrounded by as many weapons as any QB could ever expect (Including: Evans, Godwin, Brate, Howard, D-Jax, etc.)

    3.) The offensive line has been up and down but who has a perfect O-Line?

    4.) The QB is the most important position in all of pro sports and you must demand greatness. I think the Jameis would probably agree, I know the coaching staff does.

    5.) Jameis has to play better ball!!! He has to, it’s not up for debate. We’ve seen him play near flawless games, it’s not a “knowing problem” with him, it’s a “doing problem”. Always has been.

    6.) The Bucs have an uncanny ability to screw up a wet dream (AKA: One of Jameis’ great games).

    7.) A true franchise QB should be talented and cerebral enough to cover for a majority of the teams short comings.

    8.) This sh*t SUCKS!!!!! – #itsabucslife

  150. Slugglife Says:

    Haha Bobby. Good one.

    According to the experts here, they were the most beatable team on our schedule and a stepping stone.

    Thanks experts.

  151. D-Rome Says:

    Joe, just realized you have a misspelling in the title. You misspelled chopping. For some reason you typed trading.

  152. JimmyJack Says:

    Elliot…….Awesome post fair points.

    What stick out to me is #5. It begs the question……Where do we go from here? My answer is just let the season play out. But I think the conflict occurs from riding the status quo……Very difficult to keep riding with our QB when the track record has been so bad.

    What is there to be hopeful for? Really?

  153. Figures Says:


    Hilarious to see Ndog say “I’m not defending Jameis” that’s literally all you do ever.

    You blame everything on someone else. But guess what? Not a single turnover in the stat colum will have an asterisk beside it.

    More turnovers than any other player in the entire league since he was drafted and you do nothing but make excuses lol.

    You could combine turnovers with literally 8-10 qb’s and Winston would still have more lol.

    You shouldn’t even be allowed to watch football.

    I’ve never seen anyone more pathetic than you and DB55.
    Nothing but a couple of excuse makers. If Winston went to UF you would be running him out of town and you know it.

    Just pathetic. You are truly a laughing stock. We all laugh at how stuuuuuupid you are. Lol keep it coming every week my biggest entertainment is YOU LOL.

  154. JimmyJack Says:

    D-Rome Vernon as a former first rounder may very well get you some return value.

    Doubt it will be much but something nonetheless….There is a track record of many former 1st round busts retaining trade value. Gaines Adams is one that Joe brought up. Another poster brought up Eli Apple. I recall Trent Richardson getting moved and last year seeing Rosen get delt. Certainly tons more examples if you look it up.

    I’m sure there are plenty of success stories too which is why they hold value.

  155. Allbuccedup Says:

    After jpp comes back has a couple of good games trade him and vh3 for a 5th rd pick call it a day.

  156. Alanbucsfan Says:

    Jameis could throw 10 picks, and if Gay missed a fg, Joe would want to trade Gay. Face it , Jameis is just not a good pro qb.
    Does anyone other than the FSU supporters honestly think he’ll get better?

    Expectations just don’t match the player that Hargreaves is- average.

    And I don’t get how scoring 3 points vs Giants in 2nd half and losing the game translates to great qb play. Even if Gay made the kick, 6 points is great?

  157. Tbbucs3 Says:

    Jameis was bad today but it’s also funny how the use of the word “Mariota” on JoeBucsFan has dropped by about 98%.

  158. Figures Says:

    Trade literally anyone that has value except Marpet, Jensen, Godwin, and maybe white and Vea.

    Battles are won and lost in the trenches. So……. draft the crap out of the trenches. That would be a good start for the rebuild. AND FIRE LICHT NOW.

    All these corners they’ve drafted and so far they all suck. I wouldn’t keep a single da mn one of them. Well MAYBE keep Davis. But wouldn’t hurt my feelings if they didn’t.

    How can Licht have this team in salary crap he ll and be getting these results lol.

    The season is over. Every rational and logical person knows it.

    Leftwich is an idi ot and has no clue what the he ll he’s doing half the time.

    And BA is ONLY HERE FOR A PAYCHECK. the so called “QB whisperer” isn’t even calling freaking plays.

    Maybe he should stop whispering and try something else because so far it’s not working.

    Just a dumpster fire. I said 6-10 but that seems like a stretch now.

    I’m still laughing at all the idi ots on here that actually thought this team was playoff caliber lmao. My word how stuuuuupid.

  159. Anglican Says:

    While you at it, put that POS QB JW with at .383 win average on the streets too. Faie2 is fair

  160. ElioT Says:

    The Bucs have nothing to lose, but more games by riding with Jameis for the rest of the year.

    I highly doubt Griffin or Gabbert would do any better.

    Jameis has had all the advantages any QB could ever ask for and his Bucs career is going to live or die by the sword.

    You let him play out the rest of the season and hopefully something finally clicks and he plays consistently great football.

    It’d have be be epic stuff for a long term contract though and I think if Winston is here in 2020, it’s on a franchise deal.

    But who knows, #lichtmyb**ls got a five year extension…

  161. Dubcity6 Says:

    Yea I called this one when he was drafted. As a gators fan. I TOLD YA SO.

    How do I interview for GM?

  162. SappAttack Says:

    trade him for what? a ball of pubes?

  163. Buccfan37 Says:

    To his credit the Bucs would be 1-5 without his game saving tackle for the one game win.

  164. Joe in Michigan Says:

    I wonder what system VHIII would fit in, in the NFL. Probably none, I don’t imagine any team giving up anything for him. Might as well cut him and sign someone who at least has the measurables of an NFL corner. Oh, and move MJ Stewart to Safety, if he can play there.

  165. FireJasonLicht Says:

    Y handle says it all!!

  166. John Says:

    Evans hasn’t caught a jump ball in his entire career. Not even kidding check the highlight tape. He don’t leave the ground for nothing

  167. Losinghope Says:

    Once again Joe sounds foolish. THIS DUDE HAS NO TRADE VALUE

  168. JameisAlmighty! Says:

    Firrreeeeee Jason Licht! Only Licht could assemble a roster in such a manner that wastes a generational talent like Jameis Winston.

  169. JameisAlmighty! Says:

    Case of footballs and used jockstraps for Jason Licht to hang up around his office.

  170. Brian Says:

    The boy can tackle. But coverage is another issue. He is an NFL play as an FS or SS maybe but not CB.

  171. unbelievable Says:


    You must be confused young man, this is the only name I’ve ever posted under. Whoever you were addressing is not me.

    And I don’t give a single chit about the Noles or the Gators, not a fan of either team. Only a fan of my Bucs.

  172. passthebuc Says:

    @AlteredEgo. JW and molasses on the trading block for a choice walk-on next year.

  173. bucnole Says:

    VHIII has almost zero trade value and its just gonna get worse. Teams will see this and just take a chance we cut him after the season. Trading ME13 makes zero sense unless he starts pulling a DJAX. This coaching staff (the largest in the league) is not impressing me one bit. BL looks lost as to how to set up plays and use the weapons we have. SMMFH!!!!!!

  174. LongSeason Says:

    I might trade an Edsel for VHIII if I were the Detroit Lions GM.