For The Trade Down Crowd

March 2nd, 2019

Draft strategy.

There is always a sect of fans who want the Bucs to trade down in the draft. There is always a sect.

Last year Joe was with these people. And when Bucs AC/DC-loving general manager Jason Licht traded down from No. 7 and raked in a first round pick and two seconds from Buffalo, Joe thought Licht robbed the Bills blind.

So that haul brought in Vita Vea, who appears on his way to be a stud, cornerback Carlton Davis, who seems like he might be an OK starting corner, and M.J. Stewart, who Licht has already proclaimed to be such a failure at corner that he is being moved to safety. A year later, that robbery looks to be a misdemeanor. Meanwhile, the Bucs’ own second-round pick last year, Ronald Jones, looks on his way to being one of the all-time busts in team history.

So Joe isn’t warm in any way for Licht to trade out of the coveted No. 5 slot this year.

But Daniel Jeremiah is. The NFL Network’s draft guru told why he would trade down. Essentially, he wants to bulk up the Bucs’ offensive line.

It’s not a bad theory. But consider that last summer, long before he even thought he would be back in coaching much less coaching the Bucs, Bruce Arians told Barstool Sports that rookie offensive linemen generally need three years to develop and if you are going to do that you will be developing these guys for the next coach because you are going to get whacked.

Besides, Arians, 66, may not be coaching the Bucs in three years. So while Joe gets where Jeremiah is coming from, would multiple rookies on the front line be able to save the job of America’s Quarterback, Pro Bowler Jameis Winston?

69 Responses to “For The Trade Down Crowd”

  1. Alaskan Abdominal Snowman Says:

    I still would like to trade back if one of the 3 elite DL isn’t there. Imagine trading back and snagging D. White, then getting 2 OL like Dillard and Lindstrom by trading back into the first or up to the early second with the ammo you earned by trading down.
    I could live with a haul like that. So many scenarios are possible I think/hope the first pick is defense and after think the depth of OL is good enough to get some starters in the second round.

  2. Bird Says:


    Totally agree. If big three gone , move back a few spots. Not to many though. devin white is one of safest picks in draft and actually a need with Beckwith and Kwon doubtful (especially running a 3-4)

    They have to work on trenches. Pulling for Lindstrom to be a buc.
    Plus Arians will help out Licht this year to not make stupid picks like M.J. Stewart.

  3. Wausa Says:

    I agree if one of the top 3 DLinemen is there I would make the selection, but if all three are gone then I would highly consider trading back.

  4. Bucs Guy Says:

    You have to draft a tackle. Dotson will be gone this year or next. You need to draft his replacement. Beneoch is not the long term answer. He’s a backup at best. And this assumes you are signing DSmith to a long term deal.

    And you still have the problem at RG. Best case you pick up a vet and develop Cappa. The veterans being discussed are all 30+, so this is still a temporary fix. When do you draft a RG? There are a number of promising 2nd and 3rd round candidates. This may be one that gets pushed to next year if they get the veteran RG they want in FA. Then they can continue to focus on the defense.

  5. martinii Says:

    I think you go to the drafts strength and in the first round it appears to be defense, If Bosa, Q Williams, J Allen, D white, or C Ferrell fall to you at 5 take one. So far these players have remained front runners. (Possibly Ed Oliver). No OL,RB,DB has broken that need group. You can get another adequate need at 39 or trade back into second round, but more bodies of lesser caliber players are more bust. 3 of the top 5 Dl are plug and play not 3 year projects.

  6. Ndog Says:

    So after one year with historically bad coaching Joe is ready to write off Jones, Stewart and call David ok? Man I sure am glad you weren’t in charge of the Bucs decision making process when Dungy was here cause if you were then Lynch and Barber would have been viewed as useless and tossed aside. Drafting Davis and Stewart then making them play off zone coverage was akind to drafting Peyton Manning and saying ok we are running the triple option. The coaches job is to put the players in a position to succeed and that was 100% not what the previous coaching staff did. To call these guys busts, along with Jones, after one year of trash coaching is flat out ridiculous. I mean our former D coordinator is retiring cause he was so bad and the guy who replaced him can’t get a job either what does that tell you? Once allowed to do what they do best and play free of the schackles of trying to learn something outside of their comfort zone against the best in the world we will truly get a picture of how good they can be. That also goes for Donovan Smith, Hargraves, Spence and Vea. This team has so much talent yet the last staff just threw it away cause they were incompetent. Let’s all just hope this staff is actually good and putting the players in a position to showcase their skills and not try to fit square pegs into round holes.

  7. Kybucsfan Says:

    I would love you get Dillard and Lindstrom on a trade back but now with both of them having strong combines they will be first round picks. If we could trade back twice to around 20. Then use what wwe got on the trade back to somehow get back to 24. Would be about the only way I could see us getting both. Which in this case wwe should still have at less one second. And maybe two thirds left over. Games are won in the trenches.

  8. Bucs Guy Says:

    If one of the big 3 DL isn’t there, trade down. How far? Obviously it depends on who will trade with you, but I believe there are a number potential trade partners in Jx (#7), Cincinnati (#11), Miami (#13) or Washington (#15). I don’t believe the Bucs would trade back much further unless they got a big haul.

    Houston, Indy, KC, New England and Philly all have two second rd picks, so they may also be potential trade partners who would combine one of these with their first rd pick. Though you are trading much farther back with these playoff teams.. GB and the Raiders both have two first rd picks they may trade for #5, but I doubt it.

  9. macabee Says:

    If Arizona HC Kliff Kingsbury falls in love with QB Kyler Murray and one other QB needy team trades into the top 4, the Bucs are almost certainly going to pick at 5. After some impressive Combine O-Line performances, they may pick at 5 anyway. If the Bucs pick at 5, they are going to get a day one starter but with no opportunity to trade down and fewer draft picks going forward, they can’t afford any misses like last year. Hopefully BA’s involvement will help.

  10. AlabamaBucsFan Says:

    We have too many holes not seriously consider trading down. Almost every draft expert has said the Bucs and their #5 pick is the golden spot to gain more picks. Four teams lowers than this pick are in a desperate need to draft a QB. I would be disappointed if we decided to stay at #5.

  11. Tackleblockwin Says:

    Too early to tell what we will do. Imagine if we cut Jackson, McCoy, and lose Hump in FA. Suddenly our coaches might feel the need to draft a WR in rd 2 or 3. If McCoy is cut then DT or DE at 5 imo will be a sure thing. No idea what LB is going to look like either with Kwon and Beckwith. Need things in FA to clear up a bit more before we have a better picture.

  12. The Buc Realist Says:

    The only scenario that the Bucs should trade down is pickup an additional 1st round pick for next year!!!!!!! This team needs elite talent at many coveted roster spots!!!!!!!!!!

    2019 season will reveal answers to the sheep, that the “real” fans already know!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    GO Bucs!!!!!!!!!!

  13. Defense Rules Says:

    Great comments. I’m with Daniel Jeremiah on this one: “bulk up the Bucs’ offensive line”. But with a caveat: only one rookie … a tackle. Preferably franchise Donovan (still not convinced he’s our long-term answer at LT), sign a veteran starting Guard (preferably one who can play RG AND LG), and then use a high draft pick for a Tackle (preferably one capable of playing RT AND LT).

    That’d give us options to move Marpet back to RG (personally think he’s played better over there). That’d also give us a rookie RT who could backup Donovan (IF he got injured) and/or replace him down the line (IF he doesn’t improve).

    IF Bucs decide to draft offense first, at this point I’d still favor drafting Jawaan Taylor at #5 (unless we trade down), but someone else may ultimately outshine him. IF we decide to go defense first, I’d still favor drafting MLB Devin White at #5 (unless we trade down). How far we trade down & who’s still on the board when we pick obviously dictates any selections IF we trade down. My preference for a trade-down partner right now is Jacksonville. Many seem to think that Detroit at #8 is primed to select Devin White, so we could still get him by swapping with Jax (at #7) then getting their 2nd Rnd pick also. That’d give us their #38 pick PLUS our #39 pick in the 2nd Round. We could do some damage there and still most likely get Devin White at #7. Or Jawaan Taylor if we valued him more.

  14. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    Some don’t want the trade down because they don’t trust Licht to pick wisely. That’s understandable but more picks are better than having a high pick. Especially for a team with multiple needs.
    If one of the top 3 Dline prospects are there, you have to pick.

    There should be several trading partners wanting to jump others to get the first QB and that may even include the Giants to prevent someone else trading with us.
    I do think we should go Oline….but not in the first round….use the extra pick to go Oline.

  15. Bird Says:

    Agree with Ndog

    Everyone gets a chance under new coaching …real coaching ?
    Didn’t mind koetter but I think as head coach he was in over his head.
    Koetter was Better when he could focus on one thing -offensive coordinator.

    It’s so hard to see if these guys we have drafted in last few years (not just last year ) are actually busts or just waiting to ball out.

    Look at guys who came here and left. They Seem to get better other places.
    Sweezy aka back side skeezy is perfect example.

  16. Buccaneer Bonzai Says:

    Hear me when I say this:

    None of the Bucs picks from last year are busts at this point. It is simply too soon to make that claim.

    This is the kind of post that makes it clear which Joe is speaking, because there is a glaring difference between the two.

    One understands the concept of development and accepts it as a part of the game. He is more patient. He is a voice of reason. Unfortunately, he also appears to post less on the website.

    The other understands development, but refuses to acknowledge it as a necessary part of the game. He has no patience. To him, if a player doesn’t produce in his rookie year, that player was a wasted pick. He gives us the most posts on the website, and his view encompasses the views of many fans here.

    Right now, if Joe number two is reading this, I’d guess his first thought is that a coach cannot develop players because he won’t be here when they are finally developed. He’d be doing it for the next coach.

    And my response is that it is a part of the game and they have no choice. Different players ‘get it’ on paces that are faster or slower than others. Different positions are easier than others.

    I like both Joes. This is not an ‘I hate a Joe’ speech. I just wish Joe two would be a little more patient.

    In my view, here’s how it usually works with draft picks:

    1-2 players in a draft class for a single team will show good potential their rookie year.

    1-3 players from that class need the experience of a season to process over the next off season, leading to efforts to improve in their perceived weak areas leading up to their second seasons.

    During their second season, fans and coaches learn whether they put in the work to get better. That is the first sign that they will work out.

    Usually, 1-2 of those players excel and meet their full potential.

    In the above examples, a team commonly is working with one pick from each round.

    With the Bucs, last year was different. We had 1 first, 3 seconds, etc.

    To have an hopefully average draft, one first and one second have to hopefully work out. So far, we are getting that. We also got a safety who seems good. That’s three great picks for sure.

    To have three in one draft class do very well is a hard thing to happen in the rookie year. We got it. But even so, how many here were calling Vea a bust early on?

    The other players may just need time. So it is too soon to label them busts. For example:

    MJ Stewart shined in his rookie off season because he was practicing in press coverage, then Mike Smith made him play zone during the season. He’s better and faster than you think.

    Rojo was never really given an opportunity to work out the kinks. I liked Koetter, but I acknowledge his faults. He blew it in developing a running back. The RB coach blew it too.

  17. R.O. Says:

    If you listen to his and Bucky Brooks Podcast. The consensus is and I agree if Quinnen Williams or Josh Allen don’t somehow fall to 5. The value isn’t there for the Bucs to make a pick and hopefully someone wants to trade up for a QB.

  18. Buccaneer Bonzai Says:

    And no, Joe did not call anyone a bust. But his lack of patience leads others to do so.

  19. Buccaneer Bonzai Says:

    The issue with trading down is that you need a trade partner and the QB class is not a strong one. Even the consensus best is a huge question mark. So teams are less likely to trade up for one, barring the teams run by idiots.

    So it would have to be a trade partner targeting another position…a position we would probable need as well.

  20. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    I am of the belief that patience should be afforded to the draft picks after round 2.
    My reasoning is that in the first 2 rounds the top 64 prospects in the country are selected…..there should be enough of a track record and performance in college to make a productive evaluation.
    The exception to this would be to some extent your Oline and your secondary…..but only some patience.
    Licht has missed on many of his 2nd round picks…..I think his first round picks have been great.

  21. Dewey Selmon Says:

    Bonz nailed it. if Murray goes #1 and Foles signs with Jax there is really not any team that needs to jump anyone to get a QB. The Giants can take a QB and the Dolphins don’t need to jump anyone.

  22. BucNole Says:

    IF you are a high R1 or R2 pick you have to make a pretty significant impact on your team in your first year.
    If not – its legitimate to wonder if the player was a reach at that pick.

  23. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    Teams always need QBs……every year…..and, teams just want A QB….they want their QB……trust me, if the first 4 picks are not QBs…..we will have a trading partner.
    Even some teams looking for a future QB will invest in one to assure the QB they want.

  24. Buc believer Says:

    Quoting Joe… “A year later that robbery appears to be a misdemeanor a year later.” First Joe needs to fire his proof reader because he repeated himself in the same sentence. Second of course it was a misdemeanor look who pulled off the deal! Only the biggest embarrassment of a GM besides Joes good friend and NFL confidant and insider Mark Dominek.

  25. Jonathan Lipnicki Says:

    A trade down is good in theory…until you realize that Licht Weight will be making the 2nd round picks potentially accumulated from the trade.

  26. TouchDownTampaBay Says:

    Normally I don’t like trading back more than a few spots. If you have a few players graded out similar and are positions of need, then moving back like they did a few years ago makes sense (even if Hargreaves didn’t work out). However, as much as I want to fortify the lines, D White will probably be the BPA by quite a ways and LB is starting to look like a desperate need at this point. White’s film is electric and our crappy defense could use a thumper that flies all over the field. There are a lot of D lineman that look like solid first rounders this year, but White looks like the guy that could end up being a hall of famer in addition to Bosa and Allen.

  27. Z31 BUCS Says:

    Buc believer Says:
    “Joe needs to fire his proof reader because he repeated himself in the same sentence.

    Second of course it was a misdemeanor look who pulled off the deal!”


    This is hilarious. You rip JOE for a typo, and then create the worst run-on sentence that has ever been created. #GlassHouses

  28. BucdUp813 Says:

    Darrell Henderson, Memphis… Kid is a beast and don’t hear to much hype about him

  29. Andrew Says:

    The crime is Jason Licht drafting 3 Dlineman in his entire tenure here. Noah, Stevie T, and Vita. We can’t afford to let that happen again. Plus, Jason is a former Olineman who thinks he can find value. Unfortunately, our O-Line lacks a pro bowler and lacks any depth.

  30. Coburn Says:

    I’m just alway in favour of trading down period unless there is a qb or de you must have. I just believe with the natural of thr draft you are better off having more shots at it a bit lower than just one shot at a premium spot. Pretty sure thr numbers would back me up on that. If you were to take say spot #5 over 5 years and then take whatever thay equivalent value is with #13 a second and a third (value could be off) over 5 years i’m pretty sure you’d hit on more prospects with the second. I feel like your still rolling the dice a fair bit even at thr top of the draft and mid first round to second rounders still have many gold players and even several pro bowl players.

  31. Buccaneerscotty Says:

    I want white to replace Alexander so if we can trade back and still get white I’m good with it….

  32. TouchDownTampaBay Says:

    Coburn, always favoring trading down is basically ridiculous. There is a reason players are taken in spots 1 – 5 vs 10 – 15. The reason is that they have higher ceilings and are projected to be better players for the long term. To just blindly say trade back so that you can pick up an extra third rounder that has less than 50 -50 shot of making a big impact doesn’t make a lot of sense. I would say that always being open to considering trading down makes sense, but it would all depend on how your board looks and what offers you get.

  33. Tampa Bay Demon Says:

    ^^ Instinctively, Coburn, I know you are exactly right…

    and YET!!!…

    I can never bring myself to NOT want to take that higher pick, lol

  34. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    I don’t think there would be too many complaints if the top 3 Dlinemen are gone… picking Devin White at 5……the only thing is that he may be there several slots later so a trade down may still put us in position to select him.

  35. First Down Tampa Bay Says:

    Just like last year, trade down if the Big 3 aren’t there. Regardless of who was actually picked, Licht did a great job last year getting those picks from trading down. Hopefully this year he can at least regain our 3rd round pick from the JPP trade.

  36. Buc believer Says:

    @Z31…. My JOB aid not the English language and the proper use of it. Reading your text yours obviously isn’t either.

  37. casey b Says:

    We need Devin White! We have no lbs at all except for David. Im cool to take him at 5 bc he will be a plug in play 10 year starter. I dont trust our gm with trading back and getting more 2nd rd selections. He has failed at nearly every 2nd rd pick.

  38. Bucafan951 Says:

    Trading down only works when your gm can make competent picks…

  39. TouchDownTampaBay Says:

    Buc Believer – “My JOB aid not the English language and the proper use of it Reading your text yours obviously isn’t either.”

    WOW! Never ever ever criticize someone’s grammar when you are borderline illiterate.

  40. Z31 BUCS Says:

    Buc believer Says:
    “Reading your text yours obviously isn’t either.”


    This run-on sentence is worse than the last one.
    No, you won’t find anything in any of mine.

  41. Z31 BUCS Says:


    No doubt man. Well said.

  42. Jacko101 Says:

    If two QB’s are drafted in the top 4 or 1 QB a CB or OL then we should stay at 5 as that would mean a top 3 DLineman is available, if not then trade back and pick the best OL or Player

  43. passthebuc Says:

    Jason will not be making the choices on draft day.

  44. TexBuc Says:

    Armchair GM here I believe in trading back for more picks. Every pick is a gamble but the more drafted the higher the percentage of players that will make team. I subscribe to the Patriots way keep players coming every year to allow older player to leave for higher bucks. Like a good college program know you will lose good players to other teams with cap space and keep drafting players to replace. Better to let a player leave a year or two early than to keep high salaried players a year too long.

  45. Kobe Faker Says:

    “We are going to play alot more man coverage

    Who are our 2 outside cornerbacks?

    How are we going to stop any pass offense?

    and the most important question. Who the hell is the “real” fans The Buc Narcissist is talking about?

    Kobe Faker

  46. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    I am a real fan…

  47. TexBuc Says:

    Ryan Smith, VHIII, Davis III, MJ Stewart all were man press corners coming out of college. Like a broken record will say again all have been asked to play out of position to their strengths. This position group would seem to favor scheme change to man coverage. Almost seems the front office has been drafting for a change from zone to man coverage for quite a few years. Coached to their strengths and possible increased QB pressure we maybe surprised at how much better our secondary performs this year.

  48. Kobe Faker Says:

    “Ryan Smith, VHIII, Davis III, MJ Stewart?

    Miko Grimes is laughing her ass off”

    Kobe Faker

  49. Big Country Says:

    Only way I stay put is if either one of the 3 top guys fall (Josh Allen, Nick Bosa, or Q Williams). Other than that I say we trade down!

  50. The Coroner Says:

    Again. Why is Jason Licht still there?

  51. stpetebucsfan Says:

    I agree with the usual suspects..NDOG…Bonzai and TBBF.

    And I agree with the large group who say if one of the top 3 DL’s is not there trade down for sure!

    I especially agree with Coburn. I’m like the Rod Tidwell/Cuba Gooding character in “Jerry McGuire”. “Show me the money!!!”

    Show me the results and then I tend to believe you a LOT more.

    Bobby Beathard is a HOF GM. Over the course of his 38 years in the NFL, his teams competed in seven Super Bowls (winning four times).

    His theory in drafting lines up with Coburn’s post.

    An early proponent of the draft-and-develop philosophy in building a NFL team, Bobby Beathard willingly traded down in the draft if he believed a rich pool of talent left good players available later.

    And as the son of a bookie I like Beathard’s reasoning. If a first rounder has 60% chance of success (most optimistic view) and it quickly drops to 50% and lower as you drop down the rounds…it simply makes sense to secure MORE picks to enhance your odds.

    IE A 50-50 chance on one pick becomes much closer to 100% if you double the picks.

  52. JabooBuc Says:

    If there’s a big run on QB’s early including an offer to slide back for the Bucs then that means some big time defensive prospects are sliding down. If you can still grab Devin White or either of the two Clemson DT’s then move it on down.

    Also, not sure what to make of it but it appears they interviewed quite a few WR’s at the combine. I realize that we are potentially losing Humphries and DJax but seems like we would keep one of those.

  53. TexBuc Says:

    For those that do not understand basic defense principles. Zone coverage is read and react combined with a DT asked to occupy the OL to allow LB to make the play equals lack of pass rush resulting in 70% pass completions. Man press coverage is designed to delay route of WR and possible redirect towards over the top coverage combined with more aggressive pass rush concepts (one gap) should lower pass completion rates the Bucs have historically been bottom of the NFL.

    While a very few CB can excel in both schemes the majority of CB only excel in one. This is very similar to drafting a 3-4 outside rush LB (Spence) and asking him to play 4-3 DE. Very different type of player required in both cases.

  54. __TGH__ Says:

    Your logic is not sound Joe. If Licht needs 4 picks in the first 2 rounds to find a good player, then he should trade down and get more chances to draft.

  55. Widerightandleft Says:

    Speaking of Ronald Jones,makes one wonder what in the world Licht and Koetter were thinking when they watched his film.Who was the scout that said ,yep hes a second rounder for sure?Certainly with a couple years watching our oline and its inability to run block did they not opt for a more power type back.
    Besides from Ricky Bell has anyone from SoCal ever panned out for the Bucs?

  56. JabooBuc Says:

    If you look at what Jason did last year by trading down, he has two definite starters in Vita and Davis which would be the very best scenario had he not traded. In addition, he has two players in Stewart and RoJo that the jury is still out on. If either of those players does anything that benefits the team then his idea to trade down was smarter than staying with his original pick.

    We can of course argue about the selections made with additional picks but you can’t argue with fact that he selected two starters which is the very best possible outcome had he not traded.

  57. Tampa Bay Demon Says:

    ^^ Keyshawn was pretty good for awhile, but then again we did not draft him, lol.

  58. tmaxcon Says:

    considering the bucs have ZERO nfl quality starters on the offensive line and one of the worst right tackles in nfl history in dotson and yes that includes the very very average marpet another fan favorite who is nowhere near as good as they think…

  59. Whatinthebuchappend Says:

    I want either white or a top de in the first weather we stay put or trade back a little and if we trade back a few spots and still get white and an extra second , I’d want white plus a good oline and with extra second get Henderson from Memphis ! So that would be white lb , good tackle or guard , and then a really good running back..I would live that draft

  60. Dubcity06 Says:

    Dont mess around. Get the best OL player in draft. Improve Jameis and run game

  61. Coburn Says:

    Bucbeliever.. the gist of what I’m saying is that I think the value of top 5 or top 10 picks is often overrated. I get that they are “projected” to have a higher ceiling, but so often doesn’t end up being the case. How many better defensive ends were picked after Clayborn? How many better safeties were ociked afte Mark Barron? Every year there are multiple pro bowl players picked in rounds 2 and 3. My point is everything is a projection and the difference talent levels are often not as massive as people think. Heck a lot does come down to coaching and the environment. I feel like top picks are often just over 50-50 and by the time you get to round 2 it’s maybe 40-60? Without looking at numbers.. even if it’s 30-70… you would be better off based on how many you could trade that top pick for

  62. Coburn Says:

    And of course I mean being open to it. Don’t always have trade partners and don’t want to be basically giving it away. I think it’s human nature to get so enamored with the shiny objects even if some were perfectly setup to succeed in college and/ot run well in shorts. JuSt like many buy new vehicles when they could have essentially th same thing 3 years older with low mileage for significantly less. People sometimes have too high of a value on shiny things

  63. Buc believer Says:

    @Touch down…. guess you never heard of auto correct dupe bag… err douche bag there it goes again.

  64. Buc believer Says:

    @Touchdown Tampa…. you obviously never heard of auto correct dude bag… err that should say douche bag.

  65. Rod Munch Says:

    All depends on who is available.

    If last year Licht takes the obvious pick, James, then the Bucs really did pull off a heist. Vita still may end up being as good, but he’ll have to be an all-pro to get to that level of James.

    Anywho I have no issue with trading down when you don’t have a need like QB and there isn’t a generational talent, and from my limited reading on the draft I don’t really foresee any generational talent being there at #5.

  66. Aceofaerospace Says:

    What ndog said.

  67. Jameis Almighty! Says:

    MJ Stewart sucks. Putting him at safety creates the need for another safety.

  68. TOM Says:

    If the Bucs want to keep DJax, McCoy & D Smith, I’d like to know where all the Money is coming from since they”re already in cap hell. As far as I’m concerned I would’t want any of them. There cap hell solved.

  69. Mike10 Says:

    So you don’t like our trading back last year because of how we used the picks we acquired.
    So by that logic, we should probably just stop drafting players in the second round all together since we never have much luck there?

    … the logic behind the things y’all come out w makes me scratch my head