Blame It On Pete Mangurian?
September 30th, 2010
Woody Cummings of the Tampa Tribune believes Bucs offensive line coach Pete Mangurian is not coaching up his troops well enough.
Many Bucs fans wring their hands at night wondering just what has happened to the Bucs’ running game (or lack thereof).
Joe points to Father Time and simply physics: Earnest Graham is an old man by NFL running back standards and Cadillac Williams is not Steve Austin. and two knee surgeries do not make an NFL running back bigger, stronger, faster.
Woody Cummings has a different foil. A Bucs beat writer for the Tampa Tribune, Cummings believes there should be heat brought upon offensive line coach Pete Mangurian, as Cummings writes in the latest TBO Bucs question-and-answer feature.
Q: Do you believe that the offensive line is not as good as advertised? Or is the coaching to blame for the lack of a running game this year?
Theodore Arbolante, Bakersfield, Calif.
A: I’m really starting to wonder about the O-line. There is talent there. I think Jeff Faine is as good a center as there is in the league. I think Davin Joseph is as good a right guard as there is in the league. I think Donald Penn is a very good left tackle. But the sum of the parts isn’t that good. This was a rising bunch three years ago. Now it seems like an area of weakness. I have to blame the coaching, because I believe the talent is there.
— Woody Cummings
Do the math: Since Bill Muir lost his gig with the Chucky purge on that Black Friday and the Bucs tried to force feed zone blocking into the Bucs’ offensive line — which was on the cusp of being great — a scheme the line was not built for, the Bucs’ front five hasn’t been the same.
You know, round hole, square peg?
Still, Joe has seen enough holes not utilized or recognized by Bucs running backs to reinforce his premise about the running game. The blocking has been better than last year. So maybe Mangurian is getting the job done?
September 30th, 2010 at 8:15 am
Woody Cummings is a fool.
Here’s the truth…Raheem Morris and Mark Dominick made the decission to switch schemes because of their OC…whom they fired before last season started.
They realized the mistake and went back to the old way. Pete Mangurian is not to blame for it. The responsibility lies at the feet of Mark & Raheem.
That said, we all know last year was a nightmare. The Oline was told to put on weight for one thing. Then you had Faine out for a while and Mahan (sucks) at center. You had the rest trying to play at a high level in a zone system, when they were clearly not suited for it.
This year, they are back to the old way. They have not been doing a bod job at all. Look at the tape, and you will clearly see missed holes created for the running game. Freeman has had as much time as he possibly could on most plays.
The only issue I see with the oline are penalties. THOSE need to get under control.
Otherwise, I agree with you, Joe.
We have aging starters, both have an injury history. I’ve been saying from the start of training camp…we do not need Caddy at starter. Nor Graham. It is too late for both of them.
We need quality young blood there. PErsonally, I was hoping for Fullback John Conners in the draft…Jets got him and he’s excelling. But we have Pressley there…let’s cut him loose and make Blount/Huggins the two RBs. Trade Graham…we might get a 6th or so for him at this point.
And keep Caddy as a backup if needed. Because he is not getting it done as a starter.
September 30th, 2010 at 8:35 am
First off, just because Faine, Joseph, and Penn are playing well doesn’t mean the line should look good. All it takes is one weak link for an O-line to struggle as a whole. With that said, I think Trueblood has been playing well and the Vincent/Zuttah combo has been about average, but not bad.
Secondly, Huggins ran great behind this line in preseason. Blount ran great behind this line last Sunday. So did Graham actually. The problem is Caddie.
The pass protection has been very solid so far this year. Freeman has had the time he needs to make reads and get rid of the ball. There is nothing wrong with this line. If we put Huggins or Blount in, they will get 4 ypc+ average.
September 30th, 2010 at 8:38 am
Huggins didn’t run behind the first team line, and he certainly didn’t go up against first team defense.
September 30th, 2010 at 8:42 am
JOE
A little off topic but, hows that 80% predictability coming along? I remember back in the off-season you told me “anything less than an 80% prediction rate would have most columists out of a job”. That day you and about 20 other posters drove me into the ground for saying a 60% predictability rate was real good.
You probably dont remeber being as you read hundreds of posts everyday, just thought I would bring it up as we sit hear and the Bears are undefeated and the 49ers are winless, meanwhile the Bucs have a winning record and dont you know it our 4th round draft pick is leading his class in production.
Whoda thunk it?
September 30th, 2010 at 8:46 am
Richie is right, but JDoubles point is still valid. As soon as Blount is ready to take the entire load, I say go with him. We can pepper in a bit of Huiggins to see what he can do playing with the big dogs. I would keep Grahm over Cady though, he is more versatile.
September 30th, 2010 at 8:49 am
MVPFreeman:
Journalists are not handicappers. Major, major difference. If you are expecting reporters to be touts, don’t even waste your time logging on to a newspaper site. Just go to VegasInsider.com or whatever site Kelso Sturgeon is touting these days.
If a reporter was factually incorrect as much as you claim, they’d be fired. It’s very simple.
September 30th, 2010 at 8:49 am
***when I say class I mean Bucs’ draft class.
September 30th, 2010 at 8:50 am
I believe that Caddy is the culprit. I think that he takes to long to get through the holes. The o-line may not be great but there not bad either. Freeman has had ample time to throw the ball. If we can get the running game going, there will be hope for a decent season. We will not beat even average with Caddy’s 2.5 yard average. Blount reminds me of Jacobs a little. Give Blount and Huggie the rock.
September 30th, 2010 at 8:54 am
JOE
I never “claimed” Journalists were factually incorrect. I was talking about the PREDICTABILITY of the game in general. You know? Not talking newspapers. More like Bucs fan websites. **Cough cough** Joe Bucs fan vs. Pewter Report.
September 30th, 2010 at 8:54 am
How can this be, that Cadillac is subpar?
Why, just four weeks ago, Joe was to be tarred and feathered for suggesting such heresy!
Now, people are ready to run Caddy out of town. Strange?
September 30th, 2010 at 8:55 am
Keep in mind this all happened when the draft day predictions were coming out so….
September 30th, 2010 at 8:57 am
I dont think we are ready to run him out of town, he just needs to spend more time on the bench. We love Caddy around here but we also love winning football games. He could kind of be a trophy of sorts.
September 30th, 2010 at 9:05 am
Woody is right, we WERE a rising bunch, then something happened. I thought it was just the loss of Aaron Sears.
September 30th, 2010 at 9:14 am
Joe…When I say I would keep grahm over Caddy, I mean next year when the Bucs have to make the hard choices. We all think the world of Caddy, but you convinced me after the first regular season game.
September 30th, 2010 at 9:18 am
McBuc:
The Rams have a hideous offensive line, yet no one in their right mind would say Steven Jackson is a bad running back. And he’s able to get yards.
How is it Jackson can get yards but the Bucs, with a much better offensive line, struggle in the rushing game?
You can connect the dots.
Always remember and never forget, as Marshall Faulk has said on the NFL Network, a good running back can overcome a bad offensive line.
The Bucs do not have a bad offensive line. Joe’s sees the holes.
September 30th, 2010 at 9:37 am
My opinions of Cadillac haven’t changed a whole lot, because I still think he can get the job done, but the question is when. He actually played better at the end of last season than he has the start of this one. The reason for wanting a change is that all indications are that the Bucs have possibly 2 or even 3 better options at RB, not including Graham. When a player gets beat out by another player, at any position, it’s time to move on.
September 30th, 2010 at 10:03 am
Joe…We are in complete agreement. I was not sure in the preseason when you started saying that is was the backs (you may have said it last year too), but after the first game I was won over to your train of thought. That is why I have been talking about Blount so much, I hope he can be the guy. I am not sold on Huggins at this point, but would like to see what he can do with the big dogs.
My point about Grahm is if we keep one of the two old guys, I would keep Grahm…he is more versatile than Caddy. I disagree with some others on the site that thnik we can get draft picks for either of them, I do not think there is a market for Caddy that would demand a draft pick, and Grahm is in the twilight of his career. No draft picks for either in my opinion. I like both of them very much though, so it is hard to say but that is football.
September 30th, 2010 at 10:06 am
McBuc:
Joe’s been writing this since January and every time he did, readers reacted as if Joe was backhanding a nun.
September 30th, 2010 at 10:10 am
I’m still not willing to throw Caddy under the bus for the failed rushing attack. Just look at what PFF has been saying about our O-line this year. Week 2, the entire right side (C,G, & T) were listed as the worst performers. Last week, Donald Penn was there, and deservedly so. Huggins never ran against the first string in preseason, never behind this line.
Now, I’m not saying there aren’t holes opening up for the run game. Caddy had a couple carries in week 1 of about 10-20 yards each…. oh yeah, they were called back due to penalties by the O-line. Well, I know he had another couple 10 yard runs against Pittsburgh… whoops, those were called back due to penalties on the O-line as well. Can’t remember if he did the same in Carolina, but you see the point. Caddy should have 40+ yards more right now if not for O-line penalties.
As for pass protection, Josh Freeman is #40 in overall yardage in the NFL rushing. That’s 2nd for QB’s. He’s taken off 12 times. Not all 12 were due to pressure, sometimes he just saw the opening, but a LOT of them were due to pressure. He’s also been sacked 6 times. JJ has also taken off running twice (both due to pressure) and was sacked once.
Now, I’m not saying our RB’s are world beaters. It’s not like we have the best in the league. But the O-line is FAR from being good. Faine is getting tossed around, Joseph got handled by Carolina, Trueblood is still a penalty machine, Penn is completely lost and constantly pushed around. Funny, I actually think LG is playing the most consistent of any of them. I rarely hear Zuttah or Vincent called for penalties, rarely see them get beat in pass protection. Can’t say we’ve had success running left, so maybe that’s the failing of the LG position as well.
September 30th, 2010 at 10:11 am
Joe…LOL, you are right I remember. You were however, correct. It is hard to see our old favorites run out of gas.
September 30th, 2010 at 10:59 am
Jeff Faine is in the bottom half of NFL centers. Joseph is “as good as any guard in the league” for one play and then he stinks the next three plays. Penn has played pretty well. I agree with him there.
September 30th, 2010 at 11:20 am
@Joe, who said:
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I remeber agreeing with you, Joe.
Off topic, I have a tech question for you…I noticed you can Quote people…how can we do that?
September 30th, 2010 at 11:22 am
Just a test.
September 30th, 2010 at 11:22 am
Okay, disregard my question, lol. All I had to do is look on my own WordPress site.
September 30th, 2010 at 10:30 pm
You mean coaching makes a difference?