Sneaky Good Numbers

June 1st, 2019

Sacrilegious comparison?

Joe nearly fell out of his chair reading this.

Joe was scrolling through Twitter this morning and came across a post from Chase Stuart of who has a lot of smart information. In this Twitter post he noted how — of all people — Roger Staubach was more of a fumbler than Joe Namath.

(One of the all-time best NFL quotes was Staubach telling Phyllis George on NFL Today, “I enjoy sex as much as Joe Namath. Only I do it with one girl.”)

In Joe’s normal Saturday morning fog of a brain, Joe tried to tap into his increasingly cobweb-filled memory drive and Joe does remember Staubach being a bit of a fumbler. Part of that was he was a scrambler and back when he played it was open season on quarterbacks.

Now earlier this week Joe heard Pat Kirwan, co-host of SiriusXM NFL Radio’s “Movin’ the Chains,” rail about the fumbles of America’s Quarterback, Pro Bowler Jameis Winston.

Kirwan’s not wrong. Jameis fumbles A LOT and in Joe’s eyes, that is his worst and most unforgivable sin. Joe can live with Jameis’ warts but the fumbles drive Joe crazy and could drive Jameis out of Tampa Bay. Sad but true. At times, Jameis is downright sloppy with the football.

So Joe decided to compare Staubach’s fumbles to Jameis. It’s not remotely close. Jameis has 38 (!) fumbles (22 lost) in 56 games. Staubach had 13 in 31 games his first four years, losing 10.

But Joe decided to scan some other numbers between the two quarterbacks and one made Joe nearly spill his coffee in shock.

Jameis has completion percentage has a completion percentage of 61.6 percent. Staubach in his first four years? That would be 56.1 percent.

Touchdowns thrown? Jameis has 88. Staubach had 18. Yards thrown? Jameis has 14,628; Staubach 2943.

Granted, Jameis threw the ball about five times more than Staubach did in his first four seasons.

Some background: Jameis was 21 when he entered the league. Staubach was 27. Jameis, like Staubach, is a Heisman Trophy winner but only played two years of college ball. Staubach played four years at Annapolis and then served a hitch in Vietnam. Not exactly Tennessee Street on a Saturday night in Tallahassee.

When Joe was growing up, he absolutely hated the Cowboys. Still does. But Staubach was the ultimate quarterback.

People say Joe Montana was such a clutch quarterback and he sure was but it pains Joe that folks so quickly dismiss (or just don’t know better) that Staubach wrote Montana’s blueprint for comebacks. The Cowboys were never out of a game when that guy was on the field. Dude was lethal in the fourth quarter.

(There were only two athletes Joe can remember his old man talking about like they were deities: Joe DiMaggio and Roger Staubach.)

“This Joe” has maintained Jameis is the best quarterback the Bucs have ever had not named “Steve Young.” We know what happened there, don’t we?

Jameis’ biggest problem is horrible luck. Horrible luck being in a division with potentially three Hall of Fame quarterbacks. Horrible luck being on a team that has a defense so pathetic Dan Marino couldn’t win games. Horrible luck being drafted by a franchise that is known for losing in the past decade.

Granted is some ways, comparing Jameis and Staubach is ridiculous; no question. It was a different game when Staubach played. Quarterbacks could get clotheslined and it was legal. In Staubach’s early years, receivers would get mauled going downfield and it was OK. Receivers going over the middle was like playing football on U.S. 19.

Today’s NFL is a passing game.

As former Bucs coach Raheem Morris famously said, “I will tolerate you until I can replace you.” Unless you are Blaine Gabbert’s mother, what sane human being wouldn’t want Jameis starting for the Bucs?

And if Jameis has a strong year but the Bucs wave goodbye because the defense was again horrible and fans turn on Jameis for lack of wins, this franchise will rue the day.

100 Responses to “Sneaky Good Numbers”

  1. AlteredEgo Say: Your comment is awaiting moderation. Says:

    Reset the stage… NFL QBs were hit hard and often… thrown around like rag dolls… different than Jameis careless ball handling

  2. BucsBandit Says:


    You seem to somehow have forgotten to add some other Comparison Stats…


    Staubach went 10-0 in his 3rd season for the games he played and NEVER had a losing record in any season he played.

    NOW… go ahead and list Jameis’ win accomplishments, we’ll wait.

  3. BucsBandit Says:

    BTW there were no “dump off to Humphries” on WR screens or quick little slants that count towards completion % when Staubach played like there are today and a high percentage of plays.

  4. OneBuc55 Says:

    People love to point out Jameis’ flaws but doesn’t care to even mention his accomplishments…the reality is that very few QB’s in history have been more productive in their first 4 years…

    Yes he’s had some turnovers during the time span but their are HOF QB’s with more in their first 4 years…I’m happy we drafted him but coming to this putrid team has alot to do with the turnovers and lack of wins…Had we not taken him and he happened to land on some team by in the mid to late 1st Rd he very well may have already had multiple playoff appearances…

    Again, I’m happy to have him and I’m rooting for the him to once and for all prove his doubters wrong and earn a long-term deal…

  5. Joe Says:

    Staubach went 10-0 in his 3rd season for the games he played and NEVER had a losing record in any season he played.NEVER had a losing record in any season he played.

    The Doomsday Defense was just a tad better than the Bucs.

    Here’s one for you: In Jameis’ third year he would have had five fourth quarter comebacks — five! — and the friggin’ defense blew all but one lead. Only lead the defense didn’t vomit away was because Jameis threw a touchdown pass with nine seconds left.

    How many fourth quarter comebacks did Staubach have his third year? One.

  6. geno711 Says:

    Again with the comparison of stats or quarterbacks from era’s. We will get the Favre comparisons soon as well. We will get the QBR stats and forget that Jameis’ Passer rating looks much worse. We will get the 6 game stretch comparisons.

    He has had great games, he has had horrible games. He is most likely somewhere in the middle.

    He now has a quarterback whisper allegedly this year so for every good or great game people will say Koetter held him back. For every bad game, some fans will say that it is proof that not even a quarterback whisper can help him.

    I hope he proves me wrong and he is a superior quarterback and not a middle of the road type guy.

  7. ben Says:

    so why was Winston rated so far below average by the nfl qb rating ? .. excuses just keep coming …maybe this year or the year or two after , but soon !!!

  8. geno711 Says:

    Controversy erupted when the Total QBR system gave the Denver Broncos’ Tim Tebow a higher rating than the Green Bay Packers’ Aaron Rodgers in their respective Week 5 contests in 2011. Noting that Rodgers completed 26 of 39 passes for 396 yards and two touchdowns in a win over the Atlanta Falcons, while Tebow completed four of 10 passes for 79 yards and a touchdown, and six rushes for 38 yards and a touchdown, in a loss to the San Diego Chargers.

    In a more recent example, a game played on September 24, 2017, Alex Smith of Kansas City Chiefs received an inexplicable QBR of 7.8, half as much as the equally-bad QBR of 16.1 for his counterpart Philip Rivers of the Los Angeles Chargers, even though Smith had a higher completion rate (16/21 vs. 20/40), a better average per completion (7.8 yds vs. 5.9), a far superior TD/int ratio (2-0 vs. 0-3), and won the game handily 24-10.

  9. geno711 Says:


    Jameis QBR has been pretty decent in his 4 years.
    His passer Rating has been below average.
    Both stats together help to show he is more a middle of the road guy than a top rated guy.

  10. Eric Says:

    Jameies has some elite numbers, like 88 tds. Haters like to ignore that one. And he has quarterbacked the bucs to a winning season.

    He was also thrown into starting for a 2-14 team and two fired head coaches. And horrific defenses.

    Obviously a make or break year. But he has shown the skill set to be great IMO, and am expecting a break out season from him.

    Go bucs.

  11. Ndog Says:

    Tom Brady first four years starting:
    52 INT
    28 fumbles while passing
    7 fumbles while rushing
    Total: 87

    Jameis Winston first four years:
    58 INT
    22 fumbles while passing
    4 fumbles lost while rushing
    Total: 84

    Yet one won and still wins at all times and the other is a TO machine to you people. I wonder what why that is???

    Do you people see how unbelievably dumb you look?

    And no this wasn’t that different of a game cause the Rams we’re slinging the ball all over the yard back them as well so don’t give me that garbage either. Face it your WRONG and the facts prove it. Jameis had less TOs in his first four years than the GOAT so yeah we shouldn’t quite give up on him yet if we have any brains at all.

  12. Jean Lafitte Says:

    Jameis has small hands for a QB

  13. AlteredEgo Say: Your comment is awaiting moderation. Says:

    My eyes don’t deceive me….

  14. PopsMalone Says:

    I agree with Joe on a lot here. I would add that in addition to the defense having been pathetic for years (thank you Lovie and Mike Smith, you friggin idiots), where has the balance been in this offense? We have to run the ball better though I am not overly excited about this group of running backs.
    And we have had special teams that have been non existent for years. Thanks Dork Koetter. Jameis Winston has been in a bad spot here. I still question his decision making on the field at times and for sure off the field, but the deck has been heavily stacked against him playing on a pathetic team since he got here. But, those fumbles have to stop. Give me a break. Keeping my fingers crossed for better things to come this season. Nice piece Joe.

  15. geno711 Says:


    It was a different game.
    2001 teams averaged 20.5 TD’s and 17.6 Interceptions a season.
    2015 teams averaged 26.3 TD’s and 13.6 Interceptions a season.

    Why can’t you see the difference? One team (the Ram’s) does not make your argument.

  16. Eric Says:

    Excellent post Ndog

  17. Joe Says:

    Thanks Pops!

  18. JimmyJack Says:

    The unfortunate part is that I doubt Staubach ever had a game like the one Winston had against Cincinnati……as one example.

    If you keep throwing up games where you look completely inept like that you are going to get some doubter.

    Say whatever you want about defense and running games but there is no excuse to play such a awful game like that. You cannot win with QB play like that. Stats be damned.

  19. Race to 10 Says:

    Some background: Jameis was 21 when he entered the league. Staubach was 27.

    Some more background staubach entered the league in 1969 lol. Fumbles are up for everyone. I prefer fumbles over interceptions because some of them you get back and if loafers would block until the play was over some more of those wouldn’t happen. You would actually complain about being blindsided and not holding on to the ball. Would love to see a rusher coming off the edge to hit some sports writers

  20. AlteredEgo Say: Your comment is awaiting moderation. Says:

    It appears Jameis will run out of time before excuses….

  21. OneBuc55 Says:

    NDog they don’t wanna see the proof, they already wrote him off the day he walked in the building…

    Also just a reminder guys, Brady was playing for a loaded playoff team and still managed to have more turnovers than Jameis after 4 years

    If you haters take off the blinders and stop listening to the negativity that ESPN spews about Jameis every other day you’d realize that considering the fact that Winston walked into a dumpster fire the day he was drafted he still has managed to put up better numbers after 4 years than basically any QB in the league right now…

    But yeah, let’s run him off and start all over; smh, alot of people in this fanbase is absolutely clueless…

  22. JimmyJack Says:

    Ndog……When did Brady ever play as awful as the game I mentioned above?…..which is just one example. I’ll wait.

    And I am a Winston fan and supporter. But I am also not blind enough to realize that some of the critism Winson gets has merit.

    He does need to play better on a consistent basis. The guy you are comparing him to does it consistently. Jamie’s should have the same stamdards as him and the other 30 NFL QBs.

  23. Joe Says:

    You would actually complain about being blindsided and not holding on to the ball.

    Did you see Joe rip apart Jameis for that sack/fumble in Dallas last year? Surprised Jameis wasn’t maimed thanks to that ole’ block by Donovan Smith.

  24. Ndog Says:

    geno711 Says:
    June 1st, 2019 at 12:58 pm

    It was a different game.
    2001 teams averaged 20.5 TD’s and 17.6 Interceptions a season.
    2015 teams averaged 26.3 TD’s and 13.6 Interceptions a season.

    Why can’t you see the difference? One team (the Ram’s) does not make your argument.

    Ok let’s say it was a “different game” then that means less wide open offense and less chances for TO yet Brady still had more. What don’t you get, players early in their careers make mistakes and even more when you have no run game, no kicker and a horrible defense. Brady had a team win the freaking Super Bowl and compete every year and he still had more TOs than Jameis yet you think Jameis sucks and want him gone. Are you that blinded by your dislike of him that you cannot accept the truth?

  25. Eric Says:

    hateful not clueless.

  26. Ndog Says:

    Brady 3 four pick games in first 4 years starting.
    Jameis 3 four pick games in first 4 years.

    You guys can argue as much as you want but you’re wrong, Period, done end of story, facts are facts give it up or keep looking clueless your choice.

  27. Kobe Faker Says:

    “Total rebuild coming end of the year…

    Jameis will have a decent year but we will be lucky to win 5 games

    Bucs wont give JW3 a long contract so JW3 will be gone”

    Kobe Faker

  28. Ndog Says:

    Hers a little more for ya.

    Brady first years starting QB rating 87.68
    Jameis first four years QB rating 87.80

  29. geno711 Says:

    Read all my comments.
    I did not say that Jameis is horrible or “sucks” as is your quote to me.
    I did not say I want him gone.
    I agree the team can not have a good record without a good defense.

    Peyton Manning is a better comparison for Buc’s fans to consider. Because those Indy teams had some good defenses and some bad defenses. Guess what? On the years Indy had bad defenses, they did not have good records.

    And when NE defense was better in the playoffs against Indy (just like they were against the Rams last year or the Bucs were in their Super Bowl against Oakland), defenses still made the difference when two good quarterbacks play against each other. (Did I just say Brad Johnson was a good QB?)

    Overall, I am not a fan of comparing Jameis to Brady or Staubach.

  30. geno711 Says:

    I can’t wait for Jameis to have a 4 TD game this year and you claim him to be the best quarterback in the NFL.

  31. geno711 Says:

    Ndog Says:
    June 1st, 2019 at 1:27 pm
    Hers a little more for ya.
    Brady first years starting QB rating 87.68
    Jameis first four years QB rating 87.80


  32. Mike Johnson Says:

    Please..stop bustin my knees with this nonsense..Please. Who the f.. cares about numbers when you are losing? I could give less than a rats a.. Jameis could complete 30% for all i care. Just win. Winning is all that matters in the NFL.
    By any means necessary.

  33. JimmyJack Says:

    Ndog it’s not wrong. Just tell me which game Brady has ever played that was as pitiful as the one I mentioned. I’ll wait.

    Of you can’t tell me the game you can’t tell me it’s wrong. If you tell me the game I’ll be glad to watch it if I can find it. I just don’t think it exists.

  34. JimmyJack Says:

    And I don’t give a crap about stats. I can watch a game and see if it was good or bad with my own two eyes.

    If INTs determine good or bad we may as well throw Glennon into the convocation because he didn’t throw that many……..but we would never do that cause we all saw him with our eyes and know he wasn’t very good. So tell me the game so I can see it.

  35. Ndog Says:

    I’m not comparing anyone I am just pointing out facts that prove Jameis is not this horrific player who needs to be fixed like I read on this site daily. BTW he already had a 5 TD fault and I did not call him the greatest. In fact I probably expect more out of him than most do and you better believe I was ripping pissed during that Bengals game. But the difference between myself and most people is that I get that it takes a true team from the play caller all the way down to the punter in order to be successful. Quite a few of Jameis’s problems is that he wants to win so bad he tries to hard and that hurts him cause he knows the defense sucks, he know the kicker sucks, he knows they can’t run the ball. If people don’t think that effects the way a QB plays then they don’t get football at all.

  36. JimmyJack Says:

    And I say that having seen Brady play some bad games. I’ve seen him face nasty passrushes and make poor decisions. I remember KC force him into a gameending INT on a playoff game…….of course it was dropped.

    But I have never saw Brady play a completely inept game like Winston has on occasion……..and I am not trying to roast Winston here but it should be understood that some of his critism has merit.

    Like most things in life when you have two extreme opinions about something the truth usually lies on the middle. Not to the extrrmes

  37. Ndog Says:

    geno711 Says:
    June 1st, 2019 at 1:33 pm
    Ndog Says:
    June 1st, 2019 at 1:27 pm
    Hers a little more for ya.
    Brady first years starting QB rating 87.68
    Jameis first four years QB rating 87.80


    Oh really Brady’s first four years starting QB rating per year:

    Which is an average of………87.68

  38. geno711 Says:

    A quarterback stats I am trying to see If I get my head around more is the DVOA and the DYAR. The simple version: DYAR means a quarterback with more total value. DVOA means a quarterback with more value per play.

    The leaders in the DYAR were:

    2015 Carson Palmer
    2016 Matt Ryan
    2017 Tom Brady
    2018 Pat Mahommes

  39. Ndog Says:

    JimmyJack against the Bills in 2003 Brady’s his line was 14 for 28 for 123 yards which is a comp % of 50% with 0 TDs and 4 INTs with a QB rating of 22.5
    The Patriots lost 31-0.

    I don’t know about you but that’s pretty flipping bad.

  40. RustyRhinos Says:

    Joe 4th quarter comebacks only count when you Win. Otherwise it is a Loss, be that from the Defense or a late I t that is turned into points. Still a loss. We get it Winston has had some great numbers and we heard as loud as you could put it out how Glennon was not the answer because he could not elevate those around him enough to win. So we drafted Winston and we heard you at your bullypulpet about how NFL ready Winston was and how great he he as going to be in elevating those players around him. But how has that help us get W’s as I count it up he has had more losses than wins. Was he NFL ready? If he does as then why are we still wondering about his play in his fifth NFL season. That does not sound so NFL r eady to me.

  41. webster Says:


    The idiots and winston haters dont want to see. Why do you keep trying?

  42. geno711 Says:

    Ndog Says:
    June 1st, 2019 at 1:46 pm
    geno711 Says:
    June 1st, 2019 at 1:33 pm
    Ndog Says:
    June 1st, 2019 at 1:27 pm
    Hers a little more for ya.
    Brady first years starting QB rating 87.68
    Jameis first four years QB rating 87.80

    Still wrong/ QB rating is QBR is quarterback rating.

    You have obviously gotten passer rating and QB rating mixed up.
    Taking their passer ratings into account. Those are correct.

    However, when you compare those ratings to how the game has changed and how they did in comparison to other quarterbacks those years tells a story that does not support your narrative.

    So please try to follow:

    Brady 1st year: 6th In passer rating in the league.
    Winston 1st year: 28th in passer rating in the league.
    Brady 2nd year: 9th in passer rating in the league.
    Winston 2nd year: 21st in passer rating in the league.
    Brady 3rd year: 10th in passer rating in the league.
    Winston 3rd year: 14th in passer rating in the league.
    Brady 4th year: 12th in passer rating in the league.
    Winston 4th year: 24th in passer rating in the league.

    So using your own Metrics for comparison:
    Brady averaged 9th in league average for his 1st 4 years. A nice start to his career.
    Jameis averaged 21st in league average for his 1st 4 years. Alright for a young man and give him another year.

  43. geno711 Says:


    I have proved you wrong in your assertions again.

    You can say uncle now.

  44. BringBucsBack Says:

    Joe, how well do you think Steve Young, Doug Williams, Brad Johnson or Jeff Garcia would perform with this offense in today’s NFL? …About as well as Fitzpatrick did the first three weeks last season?

    #3’s brain and behavior must catch up to his body, THIS year!

  45. JimmyJack Says:

    Ok Ndog……You’re obvisouly just going by the stat line but I’ll check it out and see for myself. Don’t care about the statline but will watch it to see if he played as miserably as Winston has done multiple times.

    If it was that bad I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt but my guess is it’s been a very rare game that Brady hasn’t looked like a competent QB. Hense that game being over a decade and a half ago.

  46. JimmyJack Says:

    Just so ya know NDog I do agree with most of the things you say about Winston but when you start calling his critics incredibly dumb like you always do I take exception.

    Understood that the haters hate him based on nothing to do with football but I’m not talking about them. I’m talking about his critics. Let’s not pretend that their isn’t room for Winston to improve. And if you’re going to attack my fellow fans for being critical I got their back……….Its the same crap with McCoy. If you Critize him you are labeled a hater and attacked. Then you get a bunch of meaningless stats that led to losing crammed down your throat.

    GO BUCS!!!

  47. webster Says:


    I said i would not do this. Please explain to me how brady’s and winston’s 1st 4 years are different. One and probably the most important is billacheck (sp). Even just as important is ty law, lawyer malloy, teddy bruski, mike vrabel, willie mcgenist, ted johnson from tampa, corey dillon, antwaun smith (really a shame what happened to him) rodney harrison, richard seymor, adam vinateri, vince wolfork, 3rd down specialist kevin faulk and on and on. The pont is, brady was not asked to carry a team in his 1st 4 years because they had so many other components yet winston’s numbers are simular when he was asked to be the savior. You saw the same thing with russell wilson when he would only throw the ball 17 times and won a superbowl because of beast mode and the legion of boom. So ndog is right. The problem is the bucs do not have the luxury to wait for a qb to really become great or reach his potential when the patriots/seahawks had that luxury. Remember, if bedsoe does not get hurt, we may never know of brady. We have asked winston to perform as a 10 year vet in his 2nd year. Not fair. Brady wasnt asked to carry the team until about 2007 when he had moss. Be thankful for what you have

  48. Pete I Says:

    Jameis is a nothing when compared to Staubach.

    Jameis has nothing but stats and big numbers, and big turnovers. He isn’t currently a winner.

    The “Best” QB in Buccaneers history is not even on track to make the Ring of Honor at Ray Jay.

  49. Jameis Almighty! Says:

    This is why I come to this site! Joe Namath stories and Jameis’ ball handling.

  50. Ndog Says:

    geno711 Says:
    June 1st, 2019 at 2:15 pm

    I have proved you wrong in your assertions again.

    You can say uncle now.

    Facts are facts and what I posted we’re facts and no I will not back down cause you are wrong. You will never admit it but that’s ok when Jameis is here again next year and the year after that we can keep having this debate and guess what you will be even more wrong. But that’s ok cause I actually want him and the Bucs to succeed so I will be happy while you will still be cheering for OUR QB to struggle and this for us to lose. You must like losing since you actively root for OUR QB to fail.

  51. Pete I Says:

    “Then you get a bunch of meaningless stats that led to losing crammed down your throat.”

    This is a great line. All of Jameis’s stats are meaningless as all they have led to is losing.

    The “Best” QB in Buccaneers history is not even on track to make the Ring of Honor at Ray Jay.

  52. Tony Says:

    I thought Dungy said ‘I will tolerate you until I can replace you’? It’s possible Raheem copied it, but I’m almost positive it was Dungy.

  53. Ndog Says:

    So JimmyJack yes Jameis looked horrific in that Bengals game but every QB has had games like that but other than that he has never had a game where he looked lost. On the other hand he has had many games where he played really well and lost like the Bills game in 2017, 3 Atlanta games, GB game in 2017, at Carolina last year, the Rams here in 2016 (405 yards 3TDs 1pick at home and lost), at Wash in 2015 (21-29, 297 yards 2TDs 0 picks). People talk about wins and blame him, ridiculous.

  54. Miller5252 Says:

    This is the biggest problem I see with stats and how people argue them. I don’t really look at stats so when I see the argument that Brady and Winston have similar it really doesn’t mean much to me because it doesn’t pin point in what situation those mistakes were done in. Winston has the problem when it truly matters he likes to make his bigger mistakes. It’s great Winston has huge stats and those stats are comparable with some great players….. but who cares if when it matters most he’s failed. I’m not saying he should be gone or he’s the worst QB in NFL, but when it matters the most he needs to find that way to elevate his game and make no mistakes. I always use the Manning brothers as an example…. Payton is probably one of the best QBs to ever play the game, but….. come playoffs I would choose his brother over Payton every time. Payton could never change his game enough to carry his team. He had one way of doing it which was truly great, but couldn’t take that to one notch higher like his brother did when it mattered most.

  55. geno711 Says:

    You are wrong on that I said Jameis sucks or that I want him gone.
    You are right that I like him less than you.
    You are wrong to imply that Jameis was equal in his 1st 4 years to Brady.
    You were right to say that his passer rating (not his QBR) were almost the same.
    You were wrong when you did not accept that the Brady league passer rating was 9th in his 1st four years to Jameis 21st average in his 1st four years.
    You are wrong to try to keep painting me as a Jameis hater.

    But mostly this post is to get you to say uncle.

    P.S. I love this coaching staff and think they can turn this team around.

    I have been a season ticket holder and have gone to see our Buc’s play in Green Bay x 2, Chicago x 2, New England x 2, New Orleans x 2, Atlanta, Minnesota, Baltimore x 2, Houston and San Francisco. Unfortunately, I was probably the only guy wearing a Josh Freeman jersey at the last game he ever started for the Buc’s (in New England September 22, 2013).

  56. Ndog Says:


    It’s great Winstonhas huge stats and those stats are comparable with some great players….. but who cares if when it matters most he’s failed.

    See this is more just pure garbage. So he “failed” by putting us in the lead in the 4th quarter vs the Bills, Packers, Falcons, Panthers and several other times yet we still lost cause our defense blew it yet again. So please provide some examples of when he “failed” when it “mattered most”?

  57. Buccaneer Bonzai Says:

    Joe Says:
    “Here’s one for you: In Jameis’ third year he would have had five fourth quarter comebacks — five! — and the friggin’ defense blew all but one lead.”

    On top of that, our kicker (Folk?) blew two games as well. That’s 6 blown games. We went 5-11 that year. Had we won those games?


  58. Buccaneer Bonzai Says:

    You cannot count wins and losses against Winston unless he is the direct cause of them.

    There is a reason wins and losses are not referred to in stats sheets or QB standings. Winning is a team effort, not a single player effort.

    In Winston’s case, the defense and kicking was horrendous (and still is until it changes). No running game.

    If the defense had reduced opposing scores by just one touchdown average per game, we would have had winning records for years. If kicking had made more FGs, we would have won several more games per year.

    So only the unreasonable Jameis haters blame Jameis Winston for the record.

  59. Buccaneer Bonzai Says:

    Just like McCoy was not responsible.

  60. Buccaneer Bonzai Says:

    Ndog Says:
    “So please provide some examples of when he “failed” when it “mattered most”?”

    Well, I like Jameis, but I would say anytime we played against Marcus Mariota. For some reason, Jameis is jinxed against him.

    His suspension didn’t help either.

    And his multiple pick game that got him benched last year.

    No doubt he has made mistakes, but he is still the best we’ve ever had. These haters seem incapable of recalling how bad it was before we got Jameis. All they think about is Brad Johnson…but Johnson was supported by a great defense, and really, he only had one great year.

    Steve Young never did anything for the Bucs, so he shouldn’t even count.

    I suppose all we have to do is look at the Jets, Browns and Jags to see how hard it is to find a good QB. It took them years of drafts.

  61. Pete I Says:

    The QB will always ultimately, along with the head coach, always be determined by wins or losses no matter how they occured.

    Jameis is 21-33. I don’t remember Staubach’s 33rd loss but I do remember he was a winning QB. Don’t remember Brady’s 33rd loss and I don’t know how it happened. I do know what Brady’s record is.

    The “Best” QB in Buccaneers history is not even on track to make the Ring of Honor at Ray Jay.

  62. webster Says:

    @ miller

    I agree with ndog. The joes posted an article a while back showing with stats how jameis has been one of the best qbs on third down since he has been in the league. The joes has also posted an article where winston has been in the top 5 since he has been in the league in 4th qtr qb rating when the game is within 7 points. So i asked you sir, when does a team need a qb more than on third downs and in 4th quarters in one score games? Like ndog said, provide facts and not false narratives.

  63. Ndog Says:

    Pete your hopeless.

  64. JimmyJack Says:

    Pete that is a true statement. QBs will always be judged on W-L. And it doesn’t matter if somebody don’t think it’s fare.

    It’s the way it is always has been and always will be. It works this way in every city. It’s no different here.

    And NDog it’s about much more then a singular horrible game. It is about the totality of Winston’s poor decision making over his career. A game like that is used as an example of Winston at his worst. You cannot throw a no-look INT on 2nd down in the red zone and not have fans Critize you. Winston has had many plays like that over his 3 seasons. He plays great at times then makes bonheaded errors others…………You cannot win a SB(which is the goal) with wildly inconsistent QB play. He needs to get better and if you can’t see that I’m here to tell you that you’re wrong.

  65. webster Says:

    @ bonzai

    Winston did not fail against mariotta. His team did. In college, do you not remember dalvin cook fumbling the ball when fsu was driving early in the 3rd qtr? Instead of being down 3 or 7, fsu found themselves down 17 because they were down by 10 at that point. Do you not remember the drop passes in that game? Sure everyone remembers jameis fumble late in the 4th, but they were already down multiple scores not due to poor play by the qb. And come on, can you really count the “TENNESEE READY” bucs game when the defense mailed it in after the 1st play of the season? In lvd words, “we were deflated.” You cant blame jameis for that lost. Oh i forgot to mention humphries ran the wrong route on winston’s first pass.

  66. webster Says:


    In that college game, winston completed 65% of his passes for 348 yrds, 1 td and 1 int with a few dropped passes. Mariotta completed 72% of his passes ie dink and dunk spread offense on 10 less pass attempts with 2 tds and 1 int. Oregon scored 59 points. Where was the defense?

  67. Ndog Says:

    JimmyJack you stated the below.

    You cannot win a SB(which is the goal) with wildly inconsistent QB play. He needs to get better and if you can’t see that I’m here to tell you that you’re wrong.

    Of course he needs to get better but who doesn’t and your statement above is false as I proved in this very post cause Brady won a Super Bowl while actually having more TOs than Jameis so as it turns out you can win a Super Bowl with his play cause it happened.

    The bottom line is if you list the things that need to get better on this team Jameis is a long ways down that list and if you don’t agree with that then you’re wrong. And not because I said so but because the facts say so.

  68. JimmyJack Says:

    Webster……..Great point with the 4th quarter stats. It is noticable that Winston plays great late in games when the pressure is on.

    But you can’t just play one quarter or one half as a QB. Winston has had a really bad knack of playing bad at the start of games. Often times this has led to the game getting out of hand before halftime. Yes the defense could do more around him. That’s a fact. But still, we lost almost all of them games and poor QB play has been a contributing factor.

    The last few teams have been built to win with offense leading us. I have expected better then what they have done. QB play just hasn’t been good enough……There are other things to point to besides QB play but Winston hasn’t played good enough to be above the finger pointing. Stats be damned.

  69. webster Says:


    Oregon caused 6 fumbles in that game. 1 was by winston late in the 4th when they were already down by about 20 + points. Not on winston

  70. JimmyJack Says:

    No Ndog. You didn’t prove anything. I’m talking about inconsistent play. You only wanna talk stats……Get real dude. I’ve seen great QBs make mistakes and the next time they get the ball they stuff it into the endzone. They get it back………Yeah you can find a game from 16 years ago that Brady got blown out but he doesn’t stand behind center helpless for an entire half of football helpess as his team gets blown out.

    Great QBs don’t let that happen. They keep their teams in a game when the have to.

    Winston has put up too many gooseggs going into halftime when we needed him to score.

    I will grant you that many other QBs can get away with a 3 or 6 point 1st half performance because they got better defenses. But the fact will always remain that there have been a ton of times that we needed Winston to score and he let us down. Great QBs come through when needed.

  71. webster Says:

    Fyi… all of the fans bashing winstons for his 58 ints, in that same time frame a two time superbowl winner, big ben has thrown 59 ints. And yes, he has had multiple games during that time he has thrown 3 to 4+ ints in a game. Please get some perspective.

  72. TexBuc Says:

    My prediction is Winston will be the starting QB again in 2020.

  73. AlteredEgo Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation. Says:

    LOL….this is like OTA’s for Jameis Humpers and Jamyth critics !….just getting our postings tuned up for the regular season….LOL……

  74. Rod Munch Says:

    Winston was 13th in lost fumbles last year, with 3.

    Fumbles are not important – they generally happen because an offensive lineman stinks and lets someone get to the QB from behind. The number that matters is LOST fumbles.

  75. Rod Munch Says:

    Winston is literally the best QB in team history – and it’s not even remotely close. Those making BOLD predictions that Winston will be here next year – well, yeah, duh, that’s what happens when you’re the best QB in team history. Anyone that thinks Winston sucks or isn’t that good should stick to cruising interest glory holes on Sundays as football isn’t for them.

  76. Alanbucsfan Says:

    Staubach was great, a true winner and leader.
    But he had several great running backs- Duane Thomas, Calvin Hill, Walt Garrison, Tony Dorsett and some great OLinemen-Rayfield Wright, John Niland,
    great Defenses, great front office , and great coaches.

    Jameis has had Huey, Duey and Luey in comparison

  77. webster Says:

    Jimmy jack

    Being built to win offensively does not happen. Defense wins championships. The great future 1st ballot hof drew brees went 7-9 for three straight years when his defense finished 30 or worse. And they did not have the kicking situation the bucs had either. If brees a first ballot hof could not win with his potent offense and a poor defense, what makes you think a 2-3 year qb can? I could care less about starting slow. Sapp used to say you play 60 minutes. Fyi….since winston has been here, there have been games the bucs scored early on back to back drives yet they still lost. F@$k fast starts. Play 60 minutes. Thats what great teams do. Did brady start fast against the falcons when he threw 2 ints in the first half with one being a pick six? Did he start fast when he threw 2 ints in the first half against the seahawks and one was in the red zone? No, but he and his team played 60 minutes and ultimately won the superbowl in those games. Thats what its about. So what if winston has a bad stretch in a game. All players do. The key is to play 60 minutes and winston does. We need more of that and therefore winston is not the problem.

  78. Pete I Says:

    Jameis is currently a losing QB in the NFL.

    No amount of meaningless stats wull change that. Unreasonable or not.

    The “Best” QB in Buccaneers history is not even on track to make the Ring of Honor at Ray Jay.

  79. webster Says:

    Jimmy jack

    One last thing. Those brady teams i mentioned showed considerable fight. That is what is lacking with the bucs teams. I played basketball and i was coached that anybody can play well when things are going good but can you play well when things are going bad and you are 3-15 from the field? Will you continue to fight? Buc fans need to get out of this mindset of winston has to be 8-10 in every quarter. Its not going to happen. It does not happen for 99.9% of the qbs that have ever played in the nfl. The question is will you continue to fight? Can you snap and clear? Thats the question facing the bucs moving forward.

  80. AlteredEgo Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation. Says:

    Staubach was a true gunslinger …a deadly scrambler…a deadly accurate passer…a man of the highest character…a true leader….I don’t think Jameis has checked ONE of those boxes

  81. small axe Says:

    nice try joe

  82. Miller5252 Says:


    Failed is probably too harsh for the point I was trying make. I don’t think Winston is a garbage QB or never make it to be one of the better QB’s in league but comparing stats to other QBs don’t tell the correct story to me. That’s why I used the example of the Manning bros… Payton is one of the all time greats but when it came down to it his stats couldn’t win when it mattered.

  83. AlteredEgo Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation. Says:

    I was living in northern VA when Staubach was playing for USNA…he was a buzz in college football …I saw many of his games on the family B&W 19″ TV pulling in the signal from DC…early teen years for me

  84. Alvin Scissors Harper Says:

    Comparing Jay Miss to Staubach is like comparing ground chuck to filet mignon. Ndog, stats are for losers. There is only one statistic that is meaningful and that is Ws versus Ls. I’m not saying Jay Miss is the worst starter in the league, but he is pedestrian at best and subpar at worst.

  85. AlteredEgo Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation. Says:

    Jameis =’s Dilfer not Staubach

  86. Figures Says:

    Lmao “Winston is the best QB ever for this franchise”

    Lmao wow that’s such a high bar lol.

    That’s the most useless statement I’ve ever heard lol.

    Like that’s some major accomplishment. An average QB is the best ever for the Bucs.

    Says a lot about this franchises futility.

  87. Ndog Says:

    So Pete and Alvin I guess Barry Sanders was a crappy player as well since they didn’t win? Or how about Archie Manning? You guys don’t get it ONE PLAYER DOES NOT WIN GAMES FOOTBALL IS THE ULTIMATE TEAM SPORT. When you finally get that please come back and debate cause when win/losses is all you bring it is pretty lame since one player can’t control wins/losses since there are 3 phases of the game and the QB only plays on one of those three and even on that he doesn’t fully have control over (running game).

  88. Alvin Scissors Harper Says:

    Ndog, does he have control over his interceptions? Fumbles? Bonehead decisions? You are a Jay Miss apologist and it becomes a little over the top.
    Let me ask you this Ndog, do you really believe Jay Miss, to this point in his career, has lived up to the #1 pick in the entire draft?
    Comparing Barry Sanders to Jay Miss is like comparing a Porterhouse Steak to a lima bean.

  89. Stanglassman Says:

    There was a reddit breakdown of all of Jameis’s turnovers the 1st 3 seasons and it was surprising how many were either insignificant or clearly not his fault. Ali had about 3-4 snaps that rolled to him some other ‘fumbles’ were handoffs that for one reason or another the Rb dropped. Getting hit blindsided when the LT didn’t lay a hand on the rusher. Other times it was late in the game losing by a lot and Jameis was trying to make something happen. That last one maybe his fault. Last year he did a better job even in that kind of situation to protect the ball. I rather have that than some Qb more concerned about his stats than the small chance of winning that game.

    I’m just glad BA is our coach because he knows better than to coach that grit out of JW3. As BA said yesterday in his presser ‘we won’t be down a bunch of points in the 4th Q asking him to take 7 step drops.’ (Paraphrased).

  90. Ndog Says:

    Avoidance is a weak way of debating there Alvin. But it also means you have nothing as I am not comparing to two players I am comparing the two situations but you know that and are simply avoiding the fact that I am correct and the point I made. I am no apologist I am a simply stating facts and NO QB would have won with this team non not Brady, Manning, Staubach, Farve, etc…. Lastly if you can’t read I clearly pointed out how Brady had more TOs in his first 4 years starting so I guess the Patriots should have moved on from him right? Of course not cause when a QB is early in their career they make mistakes but apparently you expect perfection which news flash is not going to happen. But you keep on waiting tough guy and let us all know when it happens.

  91. passthebuc Says:

    Comparing JW to Staubach is like comparing Payton Barber to Jim Brown. And when Staubach said sex with only one woman, he meant in his entire life. He started walking to school with her in the 2nd grade. Staubach hates to lose. We are talking about football, baseball, basketball, and business. He is a class act, his wife is a class act, his parents were the same. There was never nonsense on or off the court. There was never nonsense in his business dealings. No Joe, you cannot compare JW to Roger, I would not even mention JW in the same breath.

  92. JimmyJack Says:

    Webster. Good points and you are right. You could also add the Eagles SB to that list of games where Brady played a poor half then rallied back, except they did lose of course.

    Fair or not was are ultimately judged on W-L. Yes, it takes a team effort to get the W……so it’s easy to see a lot needs to happen around Winston to eat those W’s. But we are only talking about Winston here. He doesn’t have to play great every single quarter but there is a definite pattern of slow starts that have featured really bad decision making. It’s nice to know he has comeback ability but I fail to see how it will work if he has to comeback in most games. Maybe this goes away if we get a better defense or maybe a run game. But in the end Winston has contributed to the holes he has been in. If the discussion is Winston then it’s fair game for him to share some of the blame for all the losses around here……..It aren’t like he has played at a All-Pro level and the rest of the team inflicted all the damage. Just like winning takes a team effort so does losing. Winston gotta play better and so do the other 52 guys.

    GO BUCS!!!!!

  93. Buc1987 Says:

    This team lost plenty before Jameis…..most forget that point.

    Your team sucks. With or without Jameis!

  94. BucHead588 Says:

    The cowboys had a great team Bucs were rebuilding when Jameis was drafted he is a good QB watch will good coaching will do

  95. Ndog Says:

    BTW Dan Marino had 67 picks in his first four years, 9 more than that bum Jameis Winston. Hey he didn’t have a running game either look at that.

  96. Jeffbuc Says:

    I just don’t get this article. I have no clue what it is even suppose to mean. So jameis had more fumbles than a guy 40 years ago. But has better passing stats. Ok thanks for the update. I guess you can do an article like this comparing Jamie’s to all the greats before the 80s every day. And show his passing stats are better than there’s. It’s a different era. 3000 yards was done by very few. And 60% completion percentage was the record back then. And 20 tds you were in the pro bowl.

  97. JimmyJack Says:

    87 I could care less about grammer but it should be Our not Your. If that not a typo I could give a flyin eff what you wanna say.

  98. D1 Says:

    Jameis Winston was the 1st pick in the first round.
    Tom Brady was the 199th pick.

    Hummmmmm….the 199th pick threw the same amount of picks , a few less or a few more, as the #1 overall pick in the draft.

    Thanks NDOG, I was beginning to really doubt the pick.

    And may this be a lesson for anyone who claims the Glazer’s shop at the discount store. Sure seems they paid retail plus for our guy rather than the save money with a hugely discounted six rounder . Or worse, they could have shopped with the penny saver and signed an ivy league journey man who has been on 31 teams and 47 head coaches for happy meal money. And you numbskulls would be wasting your life arguing about who had that good stat or that bad one..,..,complete waste of time. It’s all about the money.

    Buc fans ride with Jameis hall of famous Winston.

  99. Jameis Almighty! Says:

    By the way Marcus Mariota sucks!

  100. Bucsdelight Says:

    HAHA, are we really comparing today’s QBs with Past QBs. It is a completely different game. You can’t breathe on anybody anymore without a penalty. Back then, you could rip their head off and it wouldn’t be a penalty. Also, passing wasn’t as prolific, as you even state, back then.

    Let’s look at this: Staubach first 4 years.

    G: 31
    GS: 14
    ATT: 360
    Yds: 2,943

    Let’s look at Jameis first 4 years.

    G: 56
    GS: 54
    ATT: 1,922
    Yds: 14,628

    Anything look completely different? Yeah, the way the game was played. 360 attempts vs 1,922. Should we be shocked in anyways that Jameis has a better passing record in a time when all QBs do is throw the ball?