Move Evidence Jameis Saved Koetter

January 16th, 2018

Both helped each other.

Yesterday was not a fun day in the court of public opinion for Bucs AC/DC-loving general manager Jason Licht.

Judging by the reaction of many Bucs fans on social media and this here website, fans are more than a little miffed at Licht for grumbling to Rick Stroud of the Tampa Bay Times about the lofty expectations for the team from outside the walls of One Buc Palace prior to the 2017 season.

But the day got off to a bad start for Licht before that article was published.

Titans general manager Jon Robinson, a disciple of Licht’s, 86’ed Tennessee coach Mike Mularkey, a day after he committed a mortal sin of losing to Bill Belicheat and the Patriots. This was a team that won a road playoff game for goodness sakes!

And right about the same time as that news broke, it was learned the Bucs plan to keep their entire coaching staff for 2018, even the men responsible for one of worst defenses in Bucs history, the worst defense in several categories in the NFL and also a staff that has yet to demonstrate it can develop a young edge rusher or a young corner.

That’s a whole lot of fail there.

Inept Lovie Smith was fired for less.

So this all sent Bucs fans into a rage and Joe cannot blame them: How can teams, good teams, make moves with assistants to better themselves and/or not be satisfied with just good enough, and a team that but for five games in a two-year stretch, has had a defense that has been pretty damn sorry and seems to be OK with that? Joe cannot muster an answer.

Man, if Bucs types think the negative chattering is bad now, heaven help them if the team doesn’t turn things around and the defense is giving up fourth quarter leads and passing yards like women at Publix giving away free samples of hot meals. Trust Joe, there will be a lot of downright angry people hollering then.

The reason Joe brings all of this up is Robinson made it clear in his press conference to announce Mularkey’s axing that the key element into his decision was the development, or lack thereof, of quarterback Marcus Mariota, who will be on his third head coach in four years. Coach killer?

Meanwhile, once America’s Quarterback, Pro Bowler Jameis Winston, got healthy this past season, he looked like a new quarterback. Aside from his fumbles — no trivial matter — Jameis played lights out in the final month of the season, capped by a thrilling 95-yard drive with no timeouts to beat NFC South champ New Orleans to end the season, a drive capped by a Jameis bullet to Chris Godwin for 39-yards and the winning score.

After Monday’s events, Joe is now more convinced than ever Jameis helped save Koetter’s job.

62 Responses to “Move Evidence Jameis Saved Koetter”

  1. Bucanole Says:

    They better get the expectations rolling again this off-season. Need to hit in the draft and FA or they really will see some serious back lash from fans. I’m having real trouble wrapping my head around renewing my tix. Only thing that might save it is by belief in JW3. But I can’t watch them waste JW3 so build my expectations up Mr. Licht.

  2. LakeLand Says:

    Mike Mularkey runs a Smashmouth offense, Marcus Mariota don’t fit that type of offense. The players don’t like the offense, most of them are too soft for the offense. Here’s a list of the Head Coaches who ran the offense.

  3. firethecannons Says:

    Man you are so right Joe,
    super lame that a first round pick with existing talent was allowed to regress and flounder to the point of getting his position changed to nickel corner (VH3)
    watching that kid in the Vikes game and Patriots game was painful and embarrassing to be a Buc fan. Humiliating performances from that kid. Smitty acted like he was surprised about the outrage we expressed in press conferences about it, Koetter did too yet they did NOTHING that made him better, he failed the entire season–not one decent play from first round pick Hargreaves. More could of been done to utilize our linebacker talent( maybe a 3 man front) but yet no ability to hassle the passer. Mike Smith is/was unable to get the best out of any of these guys. Super disappointed in Jason Licht for keeping the entire staff of losers.

  4. Joe Says:


    This is why Joe is reluctant for the Bucs to draft a corner with a pick on the first two days of the draft. First these same coaches took a year to figure out where to play Ryan Smith (safety, corner?) and since, has Ryan Smith made much progress? A little, not much. Certainly not starter-level yet.

    The fact Hargreaves fell off the map means one of two things: Either there is something off the field bothering him or he’s been ruined by coaches.

  5. Joe Says:


    Jack Del Rio!

  6. LakeLand Says:

    Mike Smith and Mike Mularkey was 43-21 during their 4 seasons together in Atlanta. And they didn’t have a losing season, and Matt Ryan was a rookie when they came to Atlanta in 2008. Personally I believe Mike Smith and Mike Mularkey are good football coaches. But it’s hard to find players to fit their schemes. They need big physical players with attitudes. The Bucs and Titans don’t have those type of players.

  7. ShutTheBucUp Says:

    Too bad Mariota couldn’t save Malarkey

  8. NFLNut Says:


    MIKE MULARKEY was NOT “fired” … he QUIT!

    He was offered a contract extension and asked to bring in a new Offensive Coordinator and said, “No thanks, I don’t want to coach here anymore”.

    Marcus Mariota didn’t just get his 2nd head coach fired … his 2nd head coach literally just decided he did NOT want to earn a bunch more money with an extension to coach Mariota and WALKED!

    And again … makes changes just for the sake of making changes is stupid. Continuity can be a great thing, so while I believe Mike Smith “deserved” to be fired, if there wasn’t a better D.C. out there who wanted the job, it’s better to keep Smitty than just fire him for the sake of “making a change” …

    The Bucs SHOULD have been 11-5 in 2016 and COULD have been at least 10-6 last year and been in the playoffs both years … they weren’t … 2018 better be different or heads SHOULD roll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


  9. LakeLand Says:

    Mike Mularkey played for Bud Grant,Jerry Burns and Chuck Noll. Sam Wyche gave him his first NFL job with the Bucs back in the 1990’s.

  10. NFLNut Says:


    Mariota’s college coach Mark Helfrich was fired two years after Mariota left and then became a mere O.C. … his first NFL head coach was fired after Mariota started 1-6 and is now a mere O.C. … and now his 2nd NFL coach just walked away from an extension offer rather than return to coach the 24 year old Mariota who just played in a 2nd round playoff game … TALK ABOUT A “COACH KILLER”, WOW!

    Jameis on the other hand won a ring with Jimbo AND GOT JIMBO PAID and then after a great rookie season in the pros GOT KOETTER HIRED … and now after a good individual third season SAVED KOETTER’S JOB … TALK ABOUT A SAVIOR OF COACHES, WOW!

    Ya’ll now, you should save this post to re-post next season when all the loons come out on gamedays to say Jameis is an idiot, a coach-killer, worse than Mariota, dumb as a bag of hammers, etc … HAHAHAHAHAHA


  11. LakeLand Says:

    NFL Nut

    I never said he was fired. I stated earlier that they agreed to depart.

  12. LakeLand Says:

    A lot of Atlanta Falcons fans want Arthur Blank to Bring Mike Mularkey back to the Falcons.

  13. bucs_365 Says:

    So I guess this offseason is just going to be nothing but b!tching. Good times.

  14. Gambelero Says:

    In the 2020-2025 timeframe, I’m afraid Joe will be going on and on about “Letting Jon Robinson walk—for no good reason while keeping Jason Licht” the way he goes on and on about “letting Michael Bennett go while keeping DaQuan Bowers” now. And Joe’s point about Robinson then will be just as valid then as his point is about Bennett now.

  15. NFLNut Says:

    Lakeland … I wasn’t responding to you … I was actually responding to the article as it states the Titans “86’ed” Mularkey, which most people will read as “fired”.

  16. IE Buc Says:

    Mularkey, like Koetter, was running the same antiquated dinosaur vertical passing offense that is 20 years old and was exciting and cutting edge in 2001.

    Everyone could see that Mariota and the Titans roster was screaming and built for a high tempo spread attack offense that highlights the strenghts of Mariota and the team.

  17. NFLNut Says:

    ^ Um, NO he was not … the Titans are a smash-mouth, run-first team that throws out of play-action a ton … there offense is not the Bucs offense … and if it is, then the Titans coaches must not trust Mariota at all!!!!!!

  18. Nole4JabooANDdBucs Says:

    Love it…NFLNUT…
    You summed it FAMEISLY…no pun intended👍

  19. NFLNut Says:

    Hey N4JAB,

    Thanks man; I gotta keep the loons educated … though in the offseason, it’s mostly the true and knowledgeable fans on this board which is great!

  20. Alaskan Abdominal Snowman Says:

    One thing is for sure, Licht won’t have to worry about high expectations this year. I think this is a good thing.
    I believe the bucs making their own high expectations public caused a little hubris in this young team. It also caused the media to eat it up and regurgitate the hype.

    I believe this organization is very much aware of what is written about them and the pulse of the fan base. I hope media writes articles such as this to the point where the team believes they have been written off. They need to learn to earn everything instead of expect.
    How many times did a player say “we need to expect to win” when asked about finishing out a close game. I heard it multiple times from multiple guys this last season.

  21. IE Buc Says:


    ESPN had an article in May about Mularkey and Koettee watching each other’s games. This is what Dirk Koetter was directly quoted as saying:

    “The Titans are a team I watch a lot,” Koetter said on The Midday 180 at the NFL combine last month. “Coach Mularkey, [offensive coordinator] Terry Robiskie are two guys I have a lot of respect for. We run similar systems. Even though it may not look that way, we’re basically running the same offensive system.”

  22. IE Buc Says:

    The difference between the Titans and Bucs offense is that the Titans are run first smashmouth team and the Bucs can’t run the ball. Koetter wishes he could have a better running team, but the Bucs haven’t been able to do it.

  23. NFLNut Says:

    IE … I read that article when it came out … and like I said, *IF* the Titans really run a “similar (not “the same”)” system to the Bucs than all that proves is that the Titans coaches have NO TRUST in Mariota imho as he isn’t allowed to do anything compared to Jameis!!!!!!!!!

  24. IE Buc Says:

    Mariota doesn’t have to throw it like Jameis because the Titans can actually run the ball. The Bucs can’t run the ball. So Jameis has to throw it more. The Titans offensive roster is also not suited for that passing scheme. Their WRs and offensive talent have struggled.

    Also Mariota and Winston are not the same QB. Winston is naturally more of a gun slinger while Mariota is more dual threat. A spread attack offense is a better system for Mariota. Winston can’t run like Mariota. More of a pocket passer. I still think Mariota is the better QB.

    However, both have complained about the simplistic offesnsive passing scheme that the dinosaurs are running.

  25. firethecannons Says:

    Jameis needs to get Hargreaves to tag along on his ride out to Texas to play some Buc ball with the bro’s. VH3 needs to get his mojo back.
    Bucs coaching helped how? The kid was a baller at Florida . So–I have NO confidence in Bucs ability to coach up. Like Joe said–too risky to draft a cornerback–gotta get somebody free agency for that.

  26. NFLNut Says:



    Mariota isn’t even a “real QB” let alone a “better QB”.

    Mariota was the best in the NFL in play-action passing but SECOND-TO-WORST, only ahead of Browns rookie DeShone Kizer on ALL OTHER PASSES over the course of the entire year! He’s a gimmicky game-manager; he’s not a real QB imho.

    And NO, imho the reason Jameis throws more than Mariota has nothing to do with the two teams running games as even in both players rookie year, when the Bucs had the vastly superior running game, Jameis still threw the ball more than Mariota. The simple fact is that no matter what team Jameis played on, the coaching staff would run the offense through his right arm and ask him to win games, whereas no matter what team Mariota played on, the coaching staff would run the offense trough the ground game and simply ask him to be efficient and not lose the game.



  27. thunderchunkyPA Says:

    This sucks on so many levels. So the defensive staff, that has NOTHING to do with Jameis, you know, the WORST D in the NFL gets to come back because Dirk has Jameis playing well? Good lord, this franchise makes me sick at times. Lame duck GM and coaching staff, this makes so much sense.

  28. Defense Rules Says:

    @Joe … “staff that has yet to demonstrate it can develop a young edge rusher or a young corner. That’s a whole lot of fail there.” Far as technique goes, Mike Smith isn’t going to develop either an edge rusher or a young corner IMO Joe. That falls more into the DLine (Jay Hayes – 19 years NFL experience), Secondary (Jon Hoke – 15 years NFL experience) & Defensive Backs (Brett Maxie – 18 years NFL experience) coaches’ responsibilities. Add in Smitty’s own NFL experience (18 years) and that’s quite a bit of experience (70 years) to draw upon.

    Has the modern NFL game passed them all by? Perhaps. And maybe it’s passed Dirk Koetter by also. Especially when it comes to making game adjustments in real-time. Perhaps. But when I look at the results that this group of coaches got from Bucs’ players in the 2016 season (2nd half especially) versus what we all saw this past season I keep asking “Did these guys forget how to coach or is the level of DLine & Secondary talent really that bad?”

    My personal conclusion … at this point … is that yes, the talent provided to those position groups really is that bad. Without a pass rush OR an elite Secondary, Smitty’s defense kept us close in many games, but ultimately it’s vulnerable. I want to see Jason Licht significantly upgrade the talent to the Bucs’ defense this off-season, THEN if it still can’t perform at a reasonably high level bring on new coaches. Based on the teams we’ll be playing this year, my expectation is to bounce back to a 9-7 season … as a minimum. And if Mr. Licht & this coaching staff can’t get that accomplished, then they ALL will deserve to be fired.

  29. Hodad Says:

    What saved Koetter is Gruden didn’t want to work for the idiot brothers again. Jon chose Oakland, that’s why koetters still here. The three goof ball brothers had no plan B, rather then do something worse, which is what they’re good at, they decided it would be better if they did nothing at all. Probably the safe route to take when you consider their hiring history.

  30. Pickgrin Says:

    Joe says:
    “The fact Hargreaves fell off the map means one of two things: Either there is something off the field bothering him or he’s been ruined by coaches.”

    I’ve thought about this some too Joe and believe the former is the case – moreso than the latter. My guess is that Hargreaves did not work hard last offseason to improve his game. Maybe he didn’t “work” on his own at all. Figured he’s made it in the NFL now and can coast so “why spend all that free off time watching film looking for ways to improve? Why work hard to stay in top physical shape during my “vacation” from “work”? I’ll just show up at camp when its time for football – do what I do and it will all be good. I can ball and that talent will get me where I want to be.”

    Its not always about “coaching” in cases like this. I refer you to the example of Johnthan Banks who looked pretty good his first season or two – then his play literally fell off the map. It was easy to blame Lovie and his staff for Banks’ fall from grace at the time. But Banks’ struggle to even stay in this league – having 12 tackles and 1 pass defensed as his “stats” over the last 3 years – playing for 3 different teams – those facts say differently.

    VH3’s horrific sophomore slump was pretty much all on Vernon I’m guessing and that would mean getting his head straight about what his priorities are moving forward. You gotta want it bad and work your a$$ off to keep improving your whole career if you want to be an NFL star one day Mr Hargreaves. It doesn’t just “happen” because you show up when you are supposed to. Hopefully last year was a wake-up call for VH3. We shall see….

  31. thunderchunkyPA Says:

    What kills me is the following… They are keeping the staff as a whole, saying in part, there was not enough talent. Then look at Jason Licht, he is the man who procures said talent. Now you have this cesspool of ideas, where it’s not Licht’s fault because he had some damn good draft picks( and some terrible ones, and only 2 UFA’s worth a damn, Mr. Miko and Clinton Mc) and now the staff is back and not accountable for the WORST defense in the NFL, and the dumb idea of continuing to play Doug Martin, as an example, and we are supposed to think what? The NFL fairy will bestow magic upon us? this thinking is a FN’ nightmare, even by Glazier standards.

  32. Bob in Valrico Says:

    Part of whats wrong with the secondary is lack of depth. In the years that we had a good defense, players like Lynch and Barber learned the game over time. They
    were not thrust into the starting lineup like VH3, J. Evans and Ryan Smith.Now if your a number 1 pick like Hargreaves that’s expected. For whatever reason VH3
    is not responding to coaching. If you can’t sky with somebody like Julio you better be close enough to knock the ball out as he comes down. He also doesn’t have the closing speed necessary to stay with elite receivers IMO. Some may think its because he is a bump and run corner, but the big physical receivers
    in this league have an advantage over him.

  33. Bird Says:

    Gruden choosing Oakland is reason.

    Please stop.

    And nfl nut claiming mariota isn’t a real quarteback is so amazing. Question for nfl nut …do you dream of taking Jameis ‘s nut sack in one sitting or divy it up in a few meals. Aka the “tea bag “drop

  34. AlteredEgo Says:

    or Jameis almost got a lot of people fired

  35. LUVMYBUCS Says:


    No disrespect – but Seattle & DC Kris Richard’s (38yrs old) decided to part ways.

    This is the same kid that molded “The Legion of Boom”.
    Extremely knowledgeable when it comes to coverage techniques, etc.
    Young dudes soak up everything this brotha preaches – and perform well.

    Hiring this brotha – could go a long way towards improving this secondary/defense.

    • (2015–2017) Defensive coordinator
    • (2012–2014) Defensive backs coach
    • (2011) Cornerbacks coach
    • (2010) Assistant defensive backs coach

  36. Bucsfanman Says:

    What choice do we have but to ‘wait and see’ now that they’ve decided to retain the WHOLE staff?! Talent added better equal more wins or it will be “N.ot F.or” for this coaching staff.
    Why are we discussing Mariota? It doesn’t matter what OUR opinion is, and he’s NOT a BUC! What Mariota does have is a playoff caliber team around him. When we put the pieces together for OUR QB, maybe we can make a playoff run too!

  37. darin Says:

    Both teams have the same route trees. Or had. So yes both those teams had the worst yac in the league. Outdated IE yes, I would say. Look at mariota in his first year with wisenhunt, in his first game at that, whatd he have 4 tds in the first half against the bucs and lovie? Thats the offense they wana go back to. One that is better suited for mariota. Wish we could have some slants in our offense. Oh yeah patience…Ill try n wait a few more years

  38. Guzzie Says:

    It’s pretty obvious no one cares except the fans, talk about insanity!

  39. grafikdetail Says:

    Mike Mularkey’s stubbornness & failure to scheme around Marcus Mariota were his demise… same will happen to Dirk if he doesn’t adjust his play calling… it’s as simple as that

  40. Buccaneer Bonzai Says:

    I think a lot of people are making assumptions prompted by emotions. It’s understandable after the season we just had, but if you remove those emotions and look at this team without preconceptions, it really is not as bad off as people are assuming.

    To begin with, the national media watches 1-3 games of each team each year. They don’t actually know the pulse of the team…or how it is developing. So going by what they say can sometimes be misleading.

    The truth is this…we don’t know the inner workings or expectations of the Buccaneers. Yes, sometimes someone might get told a small bit of information, but only just enough to make more assumptions, and assumptions a guesses.

    So, as to the staff, even though I thought for sure that they would at least replace Hayes (Dline), I also understand that there were mitigating factors this year.

    The lack of talent for the defensive line played the biggest role…next to the injuries throughout the team. Sure, every team deals with injuries, but these seemed to happen at key positions. Even the quarterback got injured.

    There are factors we just don’t know about certain players as well. VHIII may have a reason for regressing, or he might have just had a bad year. You can quote all the experts who played the position you want, but history shows that some great CBs had bad sophomore years, so someone saying it doesn’t happen is just plain wrong. VHIII may have just needed a reason to work harder and refocus.

    When Jason Licht brings in new Dline guys, maybe a RB and CB, then things could turn around very quickly. He has free agency and the draft, and he usually gets 3-4 great players in the draft. So imagine, even discounting free agency, if he hits on 2 DEs, a CB and a RB. Team fixed.

    Then, if you get a healthy decent RT in free agency and maybe another DT, then we’re rolling.

    The existing staff will look like geniuses if they get the talent they need to do their jobs.

  41. Buccaneer Bonzai Says:

    I would love to see Koetter go back to the no huddle offense. It served him well in the past and Jameis plays better under such conditions.

  42. Buccaneer Bonzai Says:

    “We’ve been pretty heavy offense,” Licht said. “It’s the way things fell. We wanted to surround our quarterback with good players. Now it’s a little bit more of a challenging phase right now to concentrate on trying to build that defense up.”

    This is exactly what some of us have been saying. Licht drafted a franchise QB and when you do that, you have to focus completely on building around him. Now that most of that is done, he can turn his focus toward the defense.

    Everyone here has to admit he’s done a great job on the offense. Sure, we need a impact RB and a RT, but that’s about it. The offense is better built than ever before in Tampa.

    And those offensive coaches look good because of the players they have. The same might be said for the defensive coaches once they have the talent they need.

  43. LakeLand Says:

    Mike Smith, Jay Hayes, Brett Maxie, John Hokie has worked in the NFL for a long time. They have been successful in the NFL. But you can’t teach a old dog new tricks. The Bucs don’t have many young players on their defense. Justin Evans,Kendell Beckwith is coming along good. Ryan Smith his played decent, considering his move from CB to S, and back to CB. Noah Spence and Stevie T are on IR. The problem is, the defense has been neglected for the offense.

    The past 4 drafts

    1.DB- Ryan Smith
    1.Safety-Justin Evans
    1.DE-Noah Spence
    1.DT-Stevie T
    3.LB- Kwon Alexander-Devante Bond-Kendell Beckwith
    1.CB-Vernon Hargreaves

  44. LakeLand Says:

    Ryan Smith has played decent

  45. SB Says:

    Joe…………”Move Evidence”?????????

  46. LakeLand Says:

    And 4 of the 8 were drafted in rounds 4-7. This is what Lovie Smith said after he was fired.

    “I definitely think there should be more patience. It takes time,” Smith said. “If you make a change, there’s something that’s wrong, and you can’t just flip a switch. Things don’t happen overnight. You have to have a plan going in and stick with that plan. When I took the Tampa Bay Buccaneers job, I thought there was a plan in place. I thought that plan was being put into action. When you’re the boss, though, you can be impatient. Normally the franchises that do take their time and give you a chance maintain that level of success.”

    I’m guessing the plan was to build the offense, then the defense. But in the meantime, they still have the same trash on the defense.

  47. Bucsfanman Says:

    @Bonzai- That Licht was focused on offense is why this past season is so perplexing. It was the OFFENSE that was the biggest disappointment. For all the talent, our offense was sputter-cough, herky-jerky all year. We should have been lighting up the scoreboard by week 4. Chemistry was never there (until DJax went out).
    So, the frustration is that a very talented, potent offense was run by the same coach that we are expecting to turn the team around. Forget about the defense for a moment. Even with the horrid defense, we should’ve won more games.
    I’m venting because we have no choice. But, I’m supposed to expect the same staff to get things right?! OKee-Dokee!

  48. Bobby M. Says:

    Jameis didn’t save Koetter…..Gruden saved Koetter. If Gruden was willing to accept a cheaper deal, the Glaziers would have dumped Koetter in a heart beat.

  49. Not there yet Says:

    I believe there were coaches to be had but this team the glazers are looking for a home run hitter for a head coach and that’s the only reason they are back. There was no back up for gruden. I think they want to lie some big name to come in and coach the bucs otherwise might as well continue to let them suck. Glazers know if they hire a credible gm koetter is gone anyway so if licht goes after this season everyone is gone

  50. D-Rome Says:

    Some of you guys praising the offense and the coaching staff make me wonder what you were watching. You guys *do* realize the team didn’t even average 21ppg on offense, right?

    Jason Licht is in year 5 of his rebuild. It shouldn’t take this long.

    I can buy the argument that coaching isn’t the issue and it’s the talent on the roster (I’m a little more inclined to believe this). I can also buy the argument that the talent on the roster is great and coaching is the issue. The organization cannot sell to me that the coaching and GM are great and the status quo is what’s best for long term success.

  51. TrueBuc1970 Says:

    I’m placing my money on the fact that the Bucs will not get any significant free agents signed this off season. Licht will have his excuse for why the defense did not improve at the end of next season. Wait and see.

  52. Mike Johnson Says:

    Simply put. Buc fans..wait for the product to hit the field next year. Don’t believe the hype. If Koetter and his sidekick Smitty have a losing season?…Grab some wood and some rope. Run’em out of town!! And yes, I have a a thought this will happen as we finish last again in the division. I just have no faith in this coaching staff…at all.

  53. Pickgrin Says:

    Bucsfanman says:
    “Even with the horrid defense, we should’ve won more games.”

    If not for the “horrid defense” we WOULD have won more games – quite a few of them in fact. Yes, the offense was plagued by slow starts for most of the year and that is obviously a problem – but did you forget that the Winston led offense gave the Buccaneers the lead (or tie in 1 case) late in the 4th Quarter of FIVE different games this year? Only to have the defense give up the points at the end and lose the game.

    Defense was not consistently bad this year either – there were a few games where they played pretty well for large parts of various games – only to fold in crunch time and net us a loss.

  54. Pickgrin Says:

    Little Johnson says:
    “we finish last again in the division. I just have no faith in this coaching staff…at all.”

    This way of thinking is WAY too prevalent right now. Perhaps its the perfect scenario for these coaches and this team. Little to no expectations for the coming year. Gives the opportunity for this team to “come out of nowhere” seemingly and have a good year in 2018 – and then everyone expecting NOTHING out of our team next year will be saying what a good job the staff has done turning this thing around even thougfh they didn’t think it was possible.

    Believe me – its possible – perhaps even likely if Licht can get us some DL and OL help this off-season….

  55. Bucsfanman Says:

    Pickgrin- I am in no way exonerating that sh!t-show of a defense. There is ZERO question in my mind that our defense needs an overhaul.
    I was just pointing to the fact that we had OJ, and DJax, and ME, and Godwin, and Brate, and Hump, and a supposedly better o-line. Last year we had ME, Brate, and Hump. I’d say the offense under-performed “tremendously”!!!

  56. pewterpirate99 Says:

    Joe says:
    Man, if Bucs types think the negative chattering is bad now, heaven help them if the team doesn’t turn things around and the defense is giving up fourth quarter leads and passing yards like women at Publix giving away free samples of hot meals. Trust Joe, there will be a lot of downright angry people hollering then.

    There will be a lot of downright angry people hollering then. Then?? Really, that’s when there will downright angry people??? Joe I don’t know if you’re up on current events but, WE’RE PISSED OFF NOW!!!!! When it gets to that next year, and yes I believe it will get to that because I have ZERO confidence the ass clown show over at One Buc Joke, you’re going to see tumble weeds jockeying for seats at RayJ. I can’t wait to see how the Glazers react to that!

  57. StPeteBucsFan Says:

    You’re on fire today Pickgrin. 🙂 All posts well stated.

    AGAIN. Some like a college like result where several teams are the class of the entire nation every year. That is NOT the NFL.

    We were 3-7 in one score games. Win four of those seven and we’re playoff bound.

    The NFL has embraced parity in HUGE way. I like this because it means that we really do have a chance next year. Some dislike it as simply a mediocre league.

    You could throw a blanket over most of these teams and there’s really not that great of a difference. Quick turnarounds happen every year in the league because of this. Remember when the South was worst to first how many years in a row?

    Look at two playoff games….I’m not an MM basher…I prefer #3 but don’t need to bash MM to make #3 look better. But that TD pass to himself was pure LUCK!
    If the Titans Safety hadn’t had the clean head shot on Kelce…bad luck…the Titans would be sitting at home today. I do not believe the best team won…but let’s face it…KC is in the same puddle of average as most of the teams.

    Do we think we choked the Buffalo game…that the Bucs were actually better than the Bills? Do we remember preseason when we practiced with the Jags and looked like the better team…Spence was still playing and drawing RAVE reviews and respect from JAG players? That #3 marched the ball right down the field against the Jags vaunted D in the game that weekend?

    Look…I’m not saying that we’re going to make the playoffs next year. Simply that we ABSOLUTELY have a chance and nobody should be shocked if we do.
    Sadly if #3 goes down or major injuries to the wrong players we could also just as easily win four games.

  58. Duke Says:

    Nfl Nut,

    I have to throw a small wrench at your monkey. MM has more attempts this yr.
    So it’s not like they (mularkey) limited his opportunities, nope! MM did it himself.

    I still don’t understand the gimmicky tag , but I do think it’s looking like it’s time for the man to pick a cause and sit down or caucus for shannahan.

  59. NFLNut Says:

    ^ Duke … MM had more attempts because he played in 3 more games! I’m pretty sure you knew that …

    As for the “gimmicky” tag … any QB who is #1 in the entire NFL when throwing out of play-action, but second to last when throwing any other pass, means that there success is a “gimmick” as in, it’s not real … he’s not a “real QB” imo … he’s the NFL equivalent of many of the old Texas Tech QB’s in the NCAA … no matter what stats they accumulate, they’re still not real QBs and are little more than system guys.

  60. Duke Says:

    NFL NUT,

    I knew about the games played disparity but I look at the avg. MM has a couple of lead.

    Thanks for explaining gimmicky. Lol I automatically think of Texas Tech and Baylor when I hear gimmick. Huge numbers but that’s because out in
    Big 12 country …they ain’t heard about no defense. It’s fun to watch the last minute because of the 4 TD’ s they’ll post (team don’t matter) it’s akin to a basketball game.

    Now the tag of gimmicky because of the completion avg diff between play action and not. All that tells you is the play calling sucked. Why not call all play action.
    Play action isn’t a gimmick. 5 wide is a gimmick. What it can point to is the routes
    are or passing lanes are not clear unless there’s a play fake. Or routes off a play fake are more often open or better routes for MM to go with.either way I don’t think it’s a good correlation.

    I don’t believe anyone has consider how much injuries effected him. Watching him, there’s a huge problem with his legs and feet. Now that’s what I see as his ticket to a trivial question say ten years from now. His penchant for bodily injury and the importance of mobility to his overall play is a recipe for obscurity. I watch him with the kind of fascination as I do when I watch anything about the Titanic.
    You know what is going to happen … me those ice blue unis just make me wanna holla..”Ice berg dead ahead” cuz you what’s next “down goes Marriota!”

    Last, I’ve read your lists of greatest pure passers ever. And I know your a QB connoisseur. Which brings me to this, how did you not include Doug Williams and Michael Vick? If you haven’t seen DW play, ck him. If you excluded him because of his stats I get it.

    When you mention pure passers, Doug Williams has one of if not the best throwing motions ever. Michael Vick has the best 1-B motion. Two completely different motions but both absolutely beautiful.

    I should clarify, pure passers are the best natural throwers. I don’t look at stats or records. I look at how the motion culminates in an artistic expression of perfection. The mastery of throwing the ball. Take Favre for example, He could hurl it, flat out laser tag someone from fitty, but His motion… wasn’t a thing of beauty. The pure passers possess the beauty of the art. DaVinci would be of the same opinion. MichaelAngelo as well.

  61. Newcomer Says:

    Mariota is obviously not an NFL QB. Look what he did in the KC game:

    Apparently, his former coach didn’t believe Mariota’s calling plays won the game. In the NE game, he took away Mariota’s extra duty, refused to give up his decades old offense, had his team destroyed, and got himself fired.

  62. DT Says:

    So the problem with most fans & nfl pundits is that they want an quick and easy answer.

    Licht sux
    Koetter sux
    Mike Smith sux
    Jameis sux
    so on and so forth.

    That’s not the way complex organizations operate so buckle up for a LONG & uneasy answer(s)

    The Bucs disappointing season is the culmination of many issues at almost every level and not a single issue. I do believe that there are several problems that permeate the organization that I’ll discuss. I also think we have a number of people in roles they are not talented enough for, the old Peter Principle of being promoted to one level above your competency.

    Jason Licht:

    After 4 years with Licht as GM I am afraid it is clear who he is. He’s the best evaluator of College talent in the league. There really is no-one else in the NFL that has drafted as well as him the past 4 years. Your best hopes in the draft is to get a perennial ProBowl player in round 1, A team captain and 10 year starter in round 2, Some quality depth with upside in rounds 3 & 4. And long-shots, camp-meat in 5-7 with the occasional lucky pick.

    2014: Actually almost achieved the goals on his first attempt but not in a picture perfect way. Got his Pro Bowler with Mike Evans, the best Bucs wideout ever. His ASJ pick was a good pick. You can’t coach substance abuse issues out of someone or work ethic, he has all the talent. Got his quality depth in Charles Simms, He got his lucky pick and potential long term starter in round 5 in Kevin Pamphile who at worst is quality depth.

    2015: Crushed it. 3 ProBowl players in Winston, Marpet, Kwon & a long term starting LT in Smith

    2016: Not great but not as bad as people think. Hargreaves should be a long term starter at nickel but not a Pro Bowler. Noah Spence has potential for same if healthy. He gambled on Aguayo thinking he stole a Pro Bowler in the 2nd/3rd Round but whiffed badly. Ryan Smith & Caleb Beneoch are quality depth.

    2017: Crushed it AGAIN. OJ will be the best tight end in football in the next 3-4 years. Justin Evans seemed like a reach but Jason was correct he is a good safety with plenty of upside. Chris Godwin will be a Pro Bowl receiver, he’s already the 2nd best WR on the team for the type of offense we run. Kendall Beckwith was another seeming reach but Licht got it right again. He would’ve been in the Defensive rookie of the year conversation if he started the entire season. That’s 3 Pro Bowlers and a good starter with upside. But people want to focus on McNichols, but a fifth round running back not making the team is not news folks, happens all the time. You cant coach work ethic.

    But here’s the issue, as good as Licht is at college evaluation that is only 1 piece to the puzzle. The talking points for Licht is that he’s bad at Free Agency. I believe he is but not in the lazy way most people mean. The chorus is he makes too many misses and no great gets in FA. That simply isnt the case. For every Swaggy Baker there is a Desean Jackson. For every JR Sweezy there is a Bryan Anger or Brent Grimes. If you can evaluate college talent, you can evaluate pro talent as you have even more film and datasets.

    Where he fails at Free Agency is 2 things and they ARE correctable I am just not sure he will correct them.

    1. I think Licht defers to his coaches too much, maybe this is a holdover from the “agreement” that he had in regards to Lovie or he is a great “”football meathead” but not a great leader of an organization with clear plans and communication to his staff. There has to “be a boss” that makes Buccaneer decisions, he should’ve learned that from Keim in AZ & Belicheck in NE. He seems to want to serve his coaches to the point of deferring to them, thats a mistake. In allowing his coaches to determine how good the current roster is it affects the moves he can make. We didnt sign a decent FA RB because Koetter was all-in on Dougie for some reason (maybe Dirk’s wife is Martin’s molly dealer). We got Josh McClown because Lovie drooled over his magic season in the basement. Same with Michael Johnson.

    2.The second big issue in FA failure is there are too many decisions being made on “hopes and prayers” it seems. We hope Noah & Jacquies come back healthy and progress significantly (they didn’t), we pray that Grimes & Ayers keep playing at a high level in their 30’s (1 did, 1 didn’t) We hope that Swaggy is a disruptive force that frees up the 2nd best DT the Bucs have EVER had (he didn’t). We pray that Hargreaves figures it out in year 2 (not quite). Hope is not a strategy.

    These are both Licht’s fault but I don’t think he is “bad” at evaluating pro talent, I actually think he is the first problem in the “accountability game”. I think he gives Koetter too much leeway and Dirk has shown he IS bad at personnel evaluation (think Doug Martin being the lead back at any point this season or Charles Simms always being the 3rd down back although he still isnt great at Pass Pro, OR that he actually wanted McNichols on the practice squad). Licht has to make “Buccaneer Decisions” even if that isnt the thing his coaches want.

    This deference/accountability issues goes far beyond Licht though…

    Dirk Koetter:

    After 2 years of Dirk as HC I think we know what we have, a mediocre head coach. Dirk WILL have a barely losing record or at best break even after 3 years. Even if the Bucs SOMEHOW go 10-6 next year (we won’t) then he’ll be at .500

    So why is he a mediocre Head Coach? For all of the play calling complaints, the real issues of Dirk Koetter Head Coach is that he is too aloof and/or stubborn about very important parts of his job. He is not a great adjustments guy and he has a staff in the same image. That’s why the blowouts happen. That’s why he’s giving Doug Martin the ball in the second half on a crucial drive in week 16 (didnt work out of course). He clearly allows Mike Smith to have free reign over the defense as I’m sure he thought that would free him up to keep the true OC responsibilities. This is an issue. The players have not melded with Mike’s way of communicating and sitting in the box doesnt help. So we have a DC sitting in the booth and a HC that isn’t even paying attention to what’s happening on his sideline. So when players are playing 15 yards off the receiver and that isnt the designed way to play, who’s taking responsibility for coaching them up? I don’t believe it even crosses Koetter’s mind to try and correct his old boss in-game (Julio Jones anyone?)

    Koetters stubbornness is evident across the team. To not run Winston in short yardage QB sneaks although he clearly can do them with his frame and vision, his continual attempts at the bomb even when it’s not working, his reluctance for crossing patterns/slants. Doug Martin touching the ball at all last year. ALL evidence of his inability to adjust to / recognize the true issues on his team.

    So he’s putting the wrong players in the wrong position and not giving them enough clear direction of what’s required of them and isn’t TRULY taking responsibility for fixing it. This accountability issue bleeds into the DC also…

    Mike Smith:
    Mike Smith didnt forget how to coach suddenly. He is still a decent DC but he’s not great. Yes there could be more talent on the defense but this is a team with Pro Bowl talent at every level. Here are a few issues.
    1. We stood relatively firm on an underperforming 2016 D-line except for Swaggy with the “hopes and dreams” we discussed earlier.
    2. He clearly is not communicating clearly to the defense as its been a noted issue 2 years running, there just simply shouldn’t be the out of position plays in year 2 of an install.
    3. I think there is a HUGE disconnect between Smith & Koetter as previously discussed and as such he doesn’t have clear direction from his boss and that most likely means he isnt giving it to his staff.
    4. He ALSO is not a great in game/in season adjuster. The most talented level of the D is linebackers by far. FIND A WAY to get them on the field. This team is actually built to be a 3-4 D. We dont have a stud DE so we cant apply pressure from the 4-3 so move Gerald out to DE which is similar to a 3-technique responsibility wise. Platoon every other DT. Move Spence to rushing LB which is actually better suited for body-wise, get Kwon, Beckwith, & Lavonte on field as well. To not even give this a shot when it was clear from pre-season that we were going to have a futile pass-rush and shaky CB play after Grimes is borderline malpractice. What have you got to lose? You can’t be the 33rd ranked Defense?

    Jameis Winston:
    Jameis turns the ball over too much, but he’s still a good NFL QB that is clearly progressing every season and he still is nowhere close to his ceiling. He is a competitor and hard worker for the Bucs to model other teammates and has the chance to win ANY game with the ball in his hands. Something the Bucs have never had. We need to figure out the root cause of the fumbling issue and get it fixed. But I think this is another accountability issue, I do not think this team has a very strong organizational hierarchy. Who’s responsibility is this to do? Bajakian? Monken? Koetter? Who is going to “live or die” by fixing this problem?

    Licht is a great evaluator of talent, but he isn’t the strong guiding hand a GM must be with a clear philosophy & plan to achieve their goals. The GM’s job would be to help the HC realize that he has to hire amazing coaching talent, give them the tools they need for success, and clear as many obstacles as possible in their way.

    Koetter is a very good Offensive Coordinator but he isn’t a great leader of other leaders which is what a HC must be (a manager of managers) and he hasn’t attracted an all-star staff. He also needs a GM that can help him see the error in his ways around stubbornness/loyalty and one that will hold him accountable for repeated poor decisions.

    Smith is a decent Defensive Coordinator if he has more talent, but if he is actually required to coach up the new generation of players & position coaches he just misses the mark. This means he has mediocre position coaches. He also doesn’t experiment often enough. This ISNT an age thing, its a risk tolerance thing. Kiffin was a mad scientist at 70.

    Jameis will be fine, put away your pitchforks.

    The Bucs seem to be operating as a committee too often with very little true ownership of problems and holes at every layer of coaching/leadership.

    With so many of the key staff over their heads in their current roles the 2018 season looks grim to middling at best. The dream (if such a thing as ego didn’t exist) would be to bring in a strong Executive VP (Tom Coughlin-type) that can create the Bucs philosophy & plan allowing Licht to focus on players & learn the higher level organizational skills. We’d hire a HC that knew their job was to assemble an amazing staff on BOTH sides of the ball, move Koetter back to OC and make him upgrade some key positions like RB & QB coach. Hire a young stud defensive coach as DC that will attract other talented position coaches and build a solid defense. Fire Kaczor and hire just about anyone else.