“He’s Not Good; He’s Dominant”
August 31st, 2017
Leaving
Now that the preseason is over, Doug Martin will be exiting One Buc Palace for at least a few weeks.
Joe talked to Gerald McCoy about that tonight.
Joe asked if there’s a message coming to Martin from Gerald, a team captain, or if there was a plan to sit Martin down for a chat as his drug suspension resumes for three more regular-season games.
“I’ve already talked to Doug,” McCoy said. “So, Doug will be ready when he gets back. Doug’s gonna be alright. We’re going to miss him, for sure. We love Doug, a dominant running back. He’s not good; he’s dominant, especially when he’s on his game. We’re going to miss him, but I’ve spoken to him. We’ve already had that conversation and he’s going to be good.”
Martin was smiling as he left the locker room on the earlier than most players tonight. He certainly didn’t look like a guy who felt like he wouldn’t return.
The Bucs practice Monday, and Martin won’t be allowed in the building. He’s supposed to have no contact with team officials or coaches, but it’s unclear whether he can communicate with players. McCoy did not know, and neither did Bucs officials Joe asked.
Joe still believes the likelihood of Martin returning to the Bucs is slim when his suspension ends, but that’s only if the Bucs have no injuries or major issues at the position.
August 31st, 2017 at 11:36 pm
Barring a trade or relapse, I see no reason Doug would not be on the team come week 4.
August 31st, 2017 at 11:44 pm
Joe I want what you’re smoking. I have always considered you a smart football guy but your take on doug is beyond incorrect. If the bucs go 3/0 he still returns and likely starts. You’re wrong. Stop setting yourself up for the inevitable the same way you did with Manziel. Keep up the other good work
August 31st, 2017 at 11:44 pm
Licht will not be a fool again and let Martin screw over his teammates. What would you expect from gmc he’s a firm believer that being PC Trumps reality.
August 31st, 2017 at 11:56 pm
Joe is not interested in tolerating rude comments. Joe brought you news here from the locker room. If you don’t like Joe’s opinion, then what are you doing here day after day?–Joe
August 31st, 2017 at 11:58 pm
Come Joe.
Not with these backs we have. Dm stays 100 percent
September 1st, 2017 at 12:05 am
Joe would be the worst GM. {Remainder deleted} Again, Joe is not here to absorb malicious and inaccurate comments. –Joe
September 1st, 2017 at 12:33 am
I do t believe we would have let this go on this long if we were going to cut him. With today’s resources Haden was already signing with Pittsburgh before he was cut. There hasn’t been any doug trade rumors or anything. So there is no doubt he will be welcomed back. As bad as joe does not want this to happen doug is coming back. I know you are probaly still trying to boast about you wanting to to franchise him. But just let this go he will be back. He is not a player you just cut without trying to trade first. It’s ok to be wrong sometimes
September 1st, 2017 at 12:38 am
I know which Joe speaks this nonsense.
September 1st, 2017 at 12:39 am
I still feel let down ….to think all his suspicious play and how it affected our team. We have the dubious distinction of having the record for most double digit losing seasons. Selfish ….smh I might shop him in a couple weeks
September 1st, 2017 at 12:40 am
Hedging after making lousy guarantees. Gotta love it
September 1st, 2017 at 12:40 am
so joe what is your thinking on this just release doug to save money this year. When there is no one else to spend it on. What would we benefit from for justreleasing him. Just want to know your opinion which I respect of how that would benefit us. He is already bought and paid for this year without hurting are team. I only see positive from getting a potentially top tier running back in week 4 fresh??????
First, he is not bought and paid for this season. Second, why is it so easy to dismiss that Martin wasn’t good last year at all in 144 carries, and he hardly wowed the NFL world this preseason. –Joe
September 1st, 2017 at 12:46 am
IBleedRed- Martin is not responsible for all that is wrong with the franchise over the last 15 years. Get a grip soldier. I mean, you bleed red. How rare and patriotic
September 1st, 2017 at 12:47 am
I would think running backs grow on trees. Like you can draft a guy in the 5th round who set records and he can come right in and start. For every David Johnson there is 30 Charles sims. I think he probaly did have a problem hence the 45 day rehab. So he will most likely resemble the good doug. If he was second in the league in rushing on drugs imagine what he can do clean. I say let’s find out go Bucs siege the doug
September 1st, 2017 at 12:49 am
You really should expect comments like that after you dogged him all summer. He’s the best pro back we have. Like it or not. You always back it by saying you’d love him back if he played like his rookie season. Then day after day you put your jabs in. You’ve got a great website but i question your football intelligence.
September 1st, 2017 at 12:58 am
waiting for moderators to approve after abiding all the known yet unwritten rules is a little lousy but not unexpected. can’t say it’s surprising.
Testy testes this evening
September 1st, 2017 at 1:16 am
You are delusional. He will be here Week 4 unless he does something dumb to screw it up.
September 1st, 2017 at 1:22 am
Absolutely insane to say it’s a slim chance Doug won’t be back after the suspension is complete UNLESS Joe has some inside info on the Bucs making a deal for his replacement cause I certainly have not seen anyone on this team come close to being the rb that #22 is… what say you “Joe”
September 1st, 2017 at 1:51 am
Joe Says:
That’s ridiculous. Why would they keep him around for the entire preseason, and watch him outperform all the other RBs on the roster, only to get rid of him? This is one of those over-the-top-stupid Joe moments.
September 1st, 2017 at 2:29 am
You have got to rework his contract.
Martin has proven twice- once he gets the money, he lays down on the team.
he’s played great in the preseason. Of course. His big contract is null and void, unless the Bucs bring him back after the suspension.
They reinstate that contract- he lays down again.
He is like an ill behaved stallion. You have to keep the carrot in front of him, keep him chasing it- or hes not gonna work hard.
I know that the carrot trick isnt for stallions, but mule sounded insulting- and it was the perfect analogy!
September 1st, 2017 at 2:32 am
I love your site. I really enjoy the commentary, but “slim”? This is crossing from professional to personal. LOL. So Joe is not entitled to evaluate Martin and the organization on a football topic? You disagree and it’s personal? You are the one making it personal. Joe cheers for the Bucs on the field. Period. –Joe
I can say when I’ve misread a situation and at this point because when facts overweigh opinion, you’re loosing credibility. I was very wrong on McNichols. He has very much underperformed in taking the opportunity. He will IMO be a practice squad guy, at best on Week 4. I was way wrong on Sperbeck, I thought he had a chance to battle for the 6 spot. Last season, Martin let the team down. He came in not in optimum shape, got a huge contract and popped a hamstring and then abused recreational drugs. I get it. Somehow it gets forgotten the team was 6-2 with him as a starter. Look if Martin relapses, then yes he gets cut but the whispers have gone away. This is getting comparable to those who beat up on GMC, just because its easy.
Pros
There is an immense gap between Martin and any other back.
When healthy and motivated, a top five back in the league.
Martin was first on the depth chart for the entire preseason.
This is a three game suspension not a 6 or 8.
He has done everything the team has asked.
By every account he has won the trust of his team mates.
The team does not need salary relief.
He appears to be a positive figure in the locker room.
He is still in his prime
He has a team friendly contract that can be terminated at any point
Cons
He has a 3 game suspension
He let the team down after getting a great contract
He needs outside motivation to focus
The bulk of his career have been underperforming save for contract and rookie year.
He’s in the end of his prime years
He is overpaid based on history (performance and drug suspension)
Cutting him at this point would frankly be nothing more than a Culverhouse move. An opportunity to save some money.
September 1st, 2017 at 5:31 am
Let’s not bury McNichols based on an abbreviated offseason, not everyone goes gangster from the get, injuries happen frequently, especially to our RBs! JMc didn’t have OTAs, and coming off shoulder surgery, with limited reps behind 4 other RBs, how can you honestly expect him to look? That’s a recipe for disaster, it’s only a matter of time before one of our backs get hurt. David Johnson was a backup to 29 year old Chris Johnson his rookie year, barely got on the field, until CJ2K got injured, same thing with Jordan Howard last year he was stuck behind Langford and Carey till they got hurt….he needs more time and patience from this staff and especially us fans
September 1st, 2017 at 5:34 am
And JMc looks good on special teams, I’d be very disappointed if we cut him
September 1st, 2017 at 6:05 am
If the Bucs were going to get rid of Martin they would not have started him all preseason. If they planned on moving on from Doug they would have drafted a real RB. Not a 5th rounder. Just dont see it happening as they have no replacement.
September 1st, 2017 at 6:17 am
I think the Bucs were really hoping for McNic. to shine.giving management more of an option with Martin.MCNic ran the ball better behind non starters on the O line.He missed another block,not sure if recovery from recent shoulder surgery
is affecting his blocking.I was pleasantly surprised by Hansborough’s play.
September 1st, 2017 at 7:24 am
“Joe still believes the likelihood of Martin returning to the Bucs is slim when his suspension ends”
Based on what exactly??? SMH
Every outward visible sign points to Martin being a Buccaneer in 2017.
September 1st, 2017 at 8:10 am
Exactly! The best way to predict future behavior is to look at past behavior. Why do you guys believe Doug Martin is going to be different *this time*.
If they keep Doug Martin that’s fine but re-work the contract. Give him a contract that pays incentives to perform. He doesn’t deserve any better than a re-worked contract. Look at contracts round the NFL where running backs who’ve had 3 out of 5 years running under 500 yards. Whatever those guys are making pay him that and incentivize the rest.
September 1st, 2017 at 8:10 am
Hahahhaha wthell this dumbass hating on martin lol hes are best running back you. A fool .fooll
September 1st, 2017 at 8:15 am
These statements that keep being made about Martin are soooo ridiculous!:
“He let the team down”
“He lays down once he gets the money”
So, single-handedly Doug kept us from missing the playoffs?! It had nothing to do with an AWOL defense for 6 games and Jameis gifting turnovers?
Oh, and I’m sure that injuries played NO role whatsoever in his struggles?!
Lets stop with the narrative already. Martin will be on the roster in week 4 and will contribute. Most of all, he’s a Buc! If you are half a fan, you’d be rooting for him. He remains the best back on our roster, in case you haven’t been paying attention.
September 1st, 2017 at 8:17 am
Martin remains.
September 1st, 2017 at 8:55 am
If the Lions cut Tion Green we should try to pick that guy up. He looked real good last night for the Lions.
September 1st, 2017 at 9:00 am
I was with Joe initially about cutting Martin. Not anymore. This preseason he showed his talent again and I would say he is 2-3 times better than any of the RBs on this roster. The run game is scaring me for the first 3 games without him. Joe, i think it is time to fess up on this one. Martin has had an excellent preseason and the other RBs behind are very underwhelming. We all should hope for a Martin return including you if we want to see the Bucs win games. If you posted an article simply admitting you were wrong about this all these guys would stop chirping and commend you for your honesty.
LOL. That was very funny. Joe is not being disingenuous. Don’t appreciate the insinuation. Sorry, but Martin has yet to erase his 2016 film.–Joe
September 1st, 2017 at 9:19 am
If Doug Martin was an average running back last year the Bucs make the playoffs. He was not dependable and, as Joe pointed out many times, was a healthy scratch in the biggest game of the year last year.
Also, let’s not forget that Mark Dominik said he was “Disappointed, not surprised” by Doug Martin getting suspended so clearly Doug’s drug using has been a long term thing. We all hope he’s kicked the drug habit but like the old saying goes you can never trust an addict. The Bucs should not take a “let bygones be bygones” approach. I’m certainl they’ll make the right decision no matter what it is.
September 1st, 2017 at 9:22 am
As much as I like Martin as a person, I would’ve loved to see him replaced this year. But unfortunately he was not and he’s the best back on the roster at this point. Sorry Joe but no other back is added to the mix, martin stays another year… I just hope they restructure his existing contract soon
September 1st, 2017 at 9:22 am
What film is that? The one that showed opponents stacking the line when Martin played and where Winston was stellar through the air? The one where Martin got first contact with defenders at least one yard behind the LOS on 43% of his touches? You don’t think the box was stacked in 2015 with a rookie QB?–Joe
What got “erased” from the 2016 film was a crap offensive line that about got Winston killed.
NO running back can do squat without blocking. In 2016, the OL was a serious weak link. You can’t blame a RB for what a line didn’t do.
@Capt. Tim: Before a contract can be “reworked”, Martin must clear waivers first. Even if the parties agree to new terms, the old contract must be voided, and that requires waivers. The chances of him clearing waivers is close to *zero.*
Martin doesn’t have to clear waivers. -Joe
Additionally, as a vested veteran Martin has a one-time option of declaring his contract be paid in full if he is on the roster for his first game.
The Bucs don’t have many cards to play in this one. Cut him and move on, or keep him on the roster and pay him. The former is absurd based on current RB talent (I like Rodgers, but he is no Doug Martin.) The latter is more likely.
Martin will be a Buc for 2017. 2018 could be an entirely different story, but that is a Loooooong way away…
But as usual, opinions vary, and everybody is an amateur GM and HC.
September 1st, 2017 at 9:29 am
D-Rome- He was also injured. To say that he alone is responsible is ludicrous. You can point to any number of things that kept us out of the playoffs: 1) Lack of WR depth; 2) Offensive line issues; 3) Turnovers; 4) Defensive breakdowns; 5) Play-calling; 6) Clock management; and yes run-production.
I too am certain they will make a good decision. But lets not blame last year on ONE guy.
He’s not the only one on this team to have had issues either. Kwon and Jude come to mind.
September 1st, 2017 at 9:39 am
Cobraboy says:
“Before a contract can be “reworked”, Martin must clear waivers first. Even if the parties agree to new terms, the old contract must be voided, and that requires waivers”
Care to prove that statement?? Good Luck.
FYI – “waivers” only applies to NFL players with 4 years or less in the league.
Did JR Sweezy (who had a long term contract already in place) have to be exposed to other teams and “clear waivers” before signing his new deal for less $ this year? Nope.
September 1st, 2017 at 9:44 am
First off I believe Doug will be on the team in week 4. As Koetter says you can never have too many good players.
Here is where I disagree with GMC and many posters here.
TNEW we finally get something to debate…I usually agree with all of your takes.
I simply do not believe Doug is a top five back in this league. He’s a SOLID back who runs hard but he needs blocks…doesn’t create anything for himself..and he’s SLOW. I still remember the times two years ago when I was cursing the TV screen because blockers sprung Doug into the secondary only to have the “muscle turtle” hauled down from behind. He is simply NOT a threat to take it to the house…his TD in Jax was close and should have been a slam dunk just had to beat a guy to the edge.
As for GMC’s dominant…he’s a teammate and a popular one at that…what would we expect.
Doug is very likeable…I wish him the best… I think he’ll be on the roster…but I haven’t written off Quizz yet. It’s possible we end up with RB by committee and that’s fine with me.
The bottom line will be our OL not which RB lines up behind them. That 11 yard run in Jax Doug had could have been done by any back on this team…it was the hole that you could literally have driven a Ford 150 through.
September 1st, 2017 at 10:05 am
22 will be back and starting for the Bucs this season
September 1st, 2017 at 10:23 am
The Joes are like a couple of old diabetic smokers ignoring all the signs of a limb that’s rotting away.
Keep puffing away and don’t worry about that smell fellas!!!
The is ZERO evidence other than the suspension that would suggest Doug wont be back game 4.
He is by far the best back on the roster and it’s not even close. While last year sucked stat-wise for him, he was running hard AF and just wasn’t getting the yards for a variety or reasons. Anyone who knows football could see that he was running with extreme explosion and toughness.
The Bucs have done nothing in the pre-season that would give any non-biased observer any inclination that they plan to get rid of him.
The ONLY way I can imagine Doug not being on the roster game 4 is via trade….
Example: If a contending team with an aging QB and/or roster has their #1 RB go down for the year. Teams I can think of would be the Steelers, Chiefs, Cardinals, maybe the Chargers or even Raiders is Lynch isn’t the same guy…
***WITH ALL THAT SAID***
The Bucs hold all the cards here (except a legitimate replacement) and should attempt to re-structure his deal with incentive laden clauses to keep him on point.
*Yes some players/employees perform better with a carrot to chase, that’s just the way it is sometimes.
Go Bucs!!!!!
#Hackthemdolphinstopieces
September 1st, 2017 at 10:26 am
I don’t think the Bucs will rework Martins deal. Remember, the Bucs are only paying him for 13 games, not 16. I think it’s about 5.5 mil instead of 7.
September 1st, 2017 at 10:41 am
Give it up team Joe you’re just embarrassing yourself with this Martin nonsense.
September 1st, 2017 at 10:46 am
@Picgrin: Sweezy had guaranteed money that was reworked. Martin’s guaranteed money was voided.
Quite a difference.
@ Joe: To redo a Martin deal, the contract would have to be voided. He becomes a FA at that point. It may technically be “waivers” but officially he’d be a Free Agent.
Any agent that would advise to re-sign with the same team that just cut him to pay him less money, and not test the actual market, is guilty of malpractice.
@ Joe: I’m not sure what 2015 has to do with what happened in 2016. YOU harp on 2016. My response was a statistical analysis of that season.
But if you want to bring up 2015, fine. That season the Bucs had Evans and VJax wide (although he got hurt at the end of the season), Charles Sims coming out of the backfield and the emergence of Humphries & Brate. I suspect the box was NOT stacked that often, not like 2016 when often Evans was the only receiving threat. The team was also 6-10.
September 1st, 2017 at 11:07 am
i thought he was gone, but after watching the preseason, i think doug was the best back by far and that they find a way to bring him back.
thanks for all the awesome coverage, joes!
September 1st, 2017 at 11:26 am
Sweezy didn’t play a down last year and got paid. Where’s the outcry Joe
Joe wrote a ton about the risk of Sweezy, who still had guaranteed money for this season. Sweezy and Martin are apples and oranges. THat’s obvious. –Joe
September 1st, 2017 at 11:27 am
This is bordering on becoming a personal vendetta. Now I’m curious what Martin did/said behind the scenes to drive Joe on this witch hunt.
You can’t even compare the talent level between Martin and the rest of the RB crop at this point. Come on, Joe – give us the juicy details on the event between you and the Muscle Hamster that led to all of this.
September 1st, 2017 at 11:44 am
Cobraboy – Martin does NOT have to be cut to agree to a new (reworked) contract.
I asked you to prove otherwise and all you did was spout some BS about guaranteed $.
There is no difference whatsoever between the Sweezy situation and the Martin situation regarding the ability to rework/agree to a new contract without having to expose that player’s rights to other teams.
A new deal for less $ depends on Martin’s agreement of course – If he refuses – then the Bucs have 2 choices. Keep him or cut him.
I’d be willing to bet that even a reworked deal will pay Doug more than he would get from another team coming in week 4 – assuming Licht is fair with the offer which I believe will be the case.
The most important part of a new deal (other than a lower salary which is completely warranted considering the situation) – is the inclusion of contractual protection for the Bucs should Martin suffer a relapse. Again – very similar to Sweezy’s new deal – but with the protecting language for the Bucs being “behavior” based in Martin’s case vs injury based in JR’s case.
September 1st, 2017 at 11:54 am
Still on this? Didn’t Doug outperform every other RB on this team all off season, all training camp, and all preseason. He looks better than he ever has, and Joe’s think he gets cut? In favor of McNic? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Bucs may be a bit non committal publicly about Martin, but who exactly else is there on this team that can carry the running game? I like Quizz, like him a lot as our BACK UP. Sims is the third down guy. Good role player. Not sure what type of role Barber will have on the team, but I’m certain he isn’t going to take the starting RB spot over Quizz or Martin. With the current group of RBs we have, it just doesn’t make any sense to not keep Martin. At worst you bench him to start and let him earn his carries, if Quizz is tearing it up to start the season. And most likely he immediately starts because he is the best back on this team by a lot. The only way we don’t keep Martin is a blockbuster trade for a RB. And even then I would keep Martin as the back up. Because he is still the best back on this team right now. You don’t keep Quizz or sims or barber over Martin. You cut any and all of them before Martin is even considered.
September 1st, 2017 at 12:17 pm
@ Pickgrin: With all due respect, neither you, the Joes nor Licht know what Martin’s value would be to another team. Any opinions are just that: opinions not based on fact.
It would be 100% up to Martin to take less money. Once he says “no” all bets are off.
IMO, Martin holds the cards here. If Licht comes to Martin to demand a pay cut and Martin says “no”—which is what I would advise my client if he were Martin— the only option the Bucs have are to pay him or cut him.
Right now Martin is on a game-to-game contract with the Bucs UNLESS he exercises his vested veteran right to have his salary guaranteed if he is on the roster for his first game. If he gets cut, most likely a suitor would offer a 2-3 year deal with guaranteed money…which is a LOT more than JBF Amateur GM’s would pay to remain with the Bucs.
If he gets cut, I suspect he’d have numerous teams wanting his services. Look at how many players suspended for PED use get big money contracts. In fact the Bucs let one go who has won rings and Big $$$ for ganja: Talib.
You guys are blowing the whole Martin thing absurdly out of proportion.
September 1st, 2017 at 12:23 pm
@Cobraboy- “Look at how many players suspended for PED use get big money contracts. In fact the Bucs let one go who has won rings and Big $$$ for ganja: Talib”
Ain’t it the truth?! How we’ve lamented losing Blount, how we yearn for Le’Veon Bell and Martavis Bryant. We’ll gladly sign Greg Hardy or the child-abusing Adrian Peterson. But no, that Doug Martin is a cancer. We must get rid of him!
C’mon!
Is it regular season yet?! We need some new material around here.
September 1st, 2017 at 12:57 pm
@Bucsfanman: And Le’Veon Bell just signed a 1 yr. $12.12 million deal.
September 1st, 2017 at 2:25 pm
Oh really Cobraboy? – did you not notice how soft the market was for AP?
Have you forgotten that Martin ran for less than 500 yards 3 out of his 5 years in the league?
A 2 year – $4M per year deal with the (prorated) 2017 portion guaranteed would be a (probably more than) fair offer.
I seriously doubt Martin would get more than a $1.5 – maybe $2M offer from another team to play 13 games if the Bucs cut him and he joins a new team week 4 of the season.
Doug would find work this year for sure if the Bucs do cut him – but it would not be for any substantial pay (over $3M) unless/until he proves himself to a team on a 1 year lower level deal first. Especially when he’d be trying to get up to speed with a new offense starting from scratch week 4 of the season.
Doug is more valuable to the Bucs in 2017 than any other team because he already knows our system so well.
But he sure as hell ain’t worth $7M (pro rated) considering he was paid $9M last year to run for 434 yards while letting his personal problems become a big problem as well as a major distraction for the whole team.
There are almost always undesired consequences that result from poor performance and bad personal decisions when it comes to work. This may just be a game – but it IS a job for these players. A very lucrative one at that – even if playing for the bare minimum the league allows.
September 1st, 2017 at 4:18 pm
Joe… just admit you were wrong buddy, it will be OK, people will mock you and laugh at you, but it’s the internet, they were going to do that anyways.
Here’s an example… I thought that Roberto was going to come back in his second year and play much better, and I STILL think he’s going to end up kicking for a long time in the NFL somewhere! I still think that, but I also know I was wrong about it being here in Tampa. I watched that game and commented here on this site and after he missed the first extra point I said OK, I’m wrong, he’s done… I didn’t have to wait until it was official to realize I was wrong…
I was WRONG… I had to take abuse from the Roberto haters for it, but that’s what happens when you take a stand or have an opinion.
It’s OK to be wrong…
What exactly is Joe wrong about, that Doug Martin doesn’t have a job waiting for him in three weeks? Joe’s not rooting against Martin here, just calling it straight.–Joe
Don’t be like the Fonz, just admit you messed up, you thought McNichols was going to take Martin’s job and you were… w… r… o… n… g….
Wwwwwwrrrrroooonnnnnggggg…..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkqgDoo_eZE
And now Joe, as the Fonz would say… Sit on it.
What is it?!
Well…
It.
September 1st, 2017 at 6:32 pm
I’m super stoked for the “We we’re wrong all along” post before Martin’s week return.