Signs Point To Vincent As Starter

August 8th, 2010

The way Bucs coaches are talking, Joe wonders whether Jeremy Zuttah even has a fair shot at earning another season as Tampa Bay’s starting left guard.

Raheem The Dream and Greg Olson singled out Keydrick Vincent while talking to the MSM recently, making Zuttah seem like merely a versatile backup.

First up are Olson’s comments to Woody Cummings, of The Tampa Tribune. Cummings penned an interesting feature about Olson blending elements of Chucky, Mike Martz and Steve Mariucci into his new offense.

Until they’ve grown up offensively, though, the Bucs will look to run the ball first and throw mostly short passes second. The reason, Olson said, is simple: That’s where their strength lies.

“With the personnel we have now I think we have to run to set up the pass,” Olson said. “The O-line, especially with (guard) Keydrick Vincent there, is really a strength of ours now, because he helps us with our depth.

“And if we can run the ball, then we can set up the pass better. I learned that while I was in St. Louis. One of the reasons we were able to go deep and throw the way we did was because people had to respect our run game.”

Hmm, Olson says Vincent helps with depth, but to the best of Joe’s knowledge he only plays one position. (Also, Joe hopes Olson realizes Steven Jackson isn’t in the Bucs’ backfield).

So does Olson mean Vincent will start freeing up Zuttah to be the super reserve because of his knowledge at every position? Or is Olson saying Vincent can back up Zuttah and free up Zuttah to move if there’s an injury? Joe suspects Olson is referring to Vincent starting.

Tom Balog, beat writer for the Sarasota Herald-Tribune, flat out calls Vincent the starter in a long feature about him today.

So the only competition is between Vincent and the time it takes him to learn the Buccaneers’ offensive system.

“He brings a certain intensity to us — the ‘Carolina demeanor,’ (which is), ‘We’re going to run the ball and you’re not going to stop us,'” said Morris, who last year held up the Panthers as the team the Buccaneers want to emulate.

“He has to fit into our system, he has to learn our system, his calls, everything he has to do,” [offensive line coach Pete] Mangurian said. “Whenever you come into a new place, you have to learn a new system. It’s like learning a new language, until you’re fluent in it. That takes time. It doesn’t happen overnight.”

Joe suggests you read Balog’s entire feature. He goes on to quote Raheem The Dream talking about Zuttah’s versatility at all positions.

Joe hopes the 32-year-old Vincent is an absolute manbeast destined for the Pro Bowl, but that’s highly unlikely. If the Bucs’ plan is to develop youth, then there’s no reason not to suck it up and roll with Zuttah, who should be improved in his third year.

115 Responses to “Signs Point To Vincent As Starter”

  1. BamBamBuc Says:

    “If the Bucs’ plan is to develop youth, then there’s no reason not to suck it up and roll with Zuttah, who should be improved in his third year.”

    The plan is still to win games this year. Longer term is to go with youth. Maybe the reason not to “roll” with Zuttah is because they feel they’ve seen enough to know he’s not the answer, but he’s definitely a capable backup and can fill in at multiple spots on the line. I’d rather see them “roll” with Vincent, use Zuttah as an all-purpose backup, and then find a replacement for Vincent in the next year or two.

  2. yaz Says:

    The plan is not to be a winner this year. If they’re going to do that, then go all the way and let Vincent be a backup.

  3. bucsfan593 Says:

    I hope he is a manbeast and let zuttah learn behind him. Zuttah can be a versitile backup on an O-Line that desperatly needs one. Right now we have at least a half of a dozen spots that we are devolping all at once. i have no problem letting Zuttah develop behind jackson.

  4. JimBuc Says:

    Gotta love this kind of stupidity:

    yaz Says:

    August 8th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
    The plan is not to be a winner this year. If they’re going to do that, then go all the way and let Vincent be a backup.

  5. bucsfan593 Says:

    I dont think that we should give up on anything we need to win. if jackson is better then play him. we need to be able to run the ball if we cant do that then freemans development is going to be drasticaly slowed.

  6. admin Says:

    Joe here,

    JimBuc – Team Glazer said building a long term winner is painful. They warned of the pain of building with youth. It’s obvious that winning is not the priority this season. So why did you blast this nice Yaz character on these here pages?

    Shame on you.

  7. Capt.Tim Says:

    No. Zuttah is starting his 3rd year. It could be his tenth. He is not a starting LG in the NFL. Too small and slow. Meybe backup on right side, but I doubt it! Has proven to have bad work ethic , also. If some of the young guys work out for depth, the Bucs will draft a great young Guard next year, to learn behind Vincent. But our line is MUCH better with Vincent!

  8. admin Says:

    Joe here,

    Capt. Tim – You say he “has proven to have bad work ethic.” I guarantee you haven’t seen anyone from the Bucs say that, and you haven’t noticed that yourself. …Zuttah has learned all the positions on the line and is known for his attention to detail. This is bad work ethic? The kid also graduated Rutgers early and is very bright.

    I’d love to see where you ever commented during LAST season that he was too small and slow.

  9. BucE Says:


    Who is Jackson???

  10. eric Says:

    Yaz’s remark makes perfect sense. If you are going all the way with the plan, why play Vincent?

    Of course it is a little fuzzy whether some of our key players will be part of the lasting contenders. Caddy, Ward, Winslow, Joseph, Faine, Ruud, Barber, Graham, come to mind.

  11. JimBuc Says:


    You’re right. You and Eric and Yaz have it all figured out:

    The Bucs plan is to lose this year. 🙂

    Any contribution by an older player is absolute hypocrisy. 🙂

    Good solid analysis. What more could I possibly add? You guys have it covered. Shame on me is right Joe. Shame on me for wasting my time. 🙂

  12. FIRE GREG OLSON! Says:

    I love posters like Capt Tim. Just write anything that sounds good. No need for evidence or first/second hand accounts of the facts. LOL

    Just because you’re involved in a “youth movement” doesn’t mean that you have to do that in every position. Jesus, the people on here are all in line for a “Jump to Conclusions Doormat” for Christmas….

  13. eric Says:


    You called the guy stupid for just stating he thinks playing a younger player fits in with the plan.

    Seemed a bit uncalled for to me, even if you disagree with his premise, which is the bucs general premise also. Older players(FA’s) are “fools gold”, as stated by a Glazer boy.

    Why so touchy today?

  14. Joe Says:

    Capt. Tim:

    He is not a starting LG in the NFL. Too small and slow.

    Were you saying this two years ago when Zuttah filled in for an injured David Joseph and you never once heard Zuttah’s name mentioned because he was getting the job done so well?

  15. RustyRhino Says:

    I don’t care about WHO starts so long as it is the best 22 men on the field! Young or Old, just put the best players out there and let them dial it up. Vincent is a very good veteran guard who has a mean streak in him, whats not to like? The past 2 years he has started against all NFC South teams, he is a rough and reliable player. If he beats out Zuttah then so be it. I like it that he is going up against out four young DT who need that experience of going against a nasty capable experienced NFL guard. And i cant wait till he goes against his old team and gives em hell!
    Go Vincent!! and Go BUCS!

  16. rich Says:

    Shame on Capt.Tim , You should know that joe has a man crush on Zuttah. joe prob has posters of Zuttah on his bedroom wall.

  17. Posey99 Says:

    May the best man win… End of story.

  18. Bucnjim Says:

    It would give the Bucs one of the bigger offensive lines in the league. Penn 335lbs, Trueblood 320lbs, Joseph 320lbs, Vincent 325lbs, and Faine @ around 300 lbs. I’m not saying Vincent is better, but he sure looks like an earth mover. That’s a lot of meat and potatos with an attitude. It would be nice to see them live up to their expectations this year.

  19. eric Says:

    The “play the best man” theory left the building long ago with this crew.

    Why do you think the Blocking Icon is roaming aroung one buc place.


  20. Bryan Holt Says:

    Please check out my take of last night’s festivities.

  21. CharlieB Says:

    Doesn’t Davin play on the right? Maybe its a situation like Dotson where he just plays better on the right.

  22. Rican Says:

    Personally i think that’s assuming too much, if Vincent starts he starts. I’ve watched all the press conferences and there’s hardly a bias there. If Vincent is performing better what do want for the coaches to claim he isn’t?? Also when a coach talks about a players providing depth ‘usually’ that means the player provides great back up lol. I don’t know what your shooting for Joe…. Maybe fishing???

  23. JimBuc Says:

    Eric — I called the guy stupid for saying this:

    The plan is not to be a winner this year.

    But you know that . .

  24. Capt.Tim Says:

    Rich-didn’t know it til now, but gotta be true! And yea , Joe , I have in fact heard about your Boy Zuttah’s bad work ethic from several sources! Including on an article at “joeBuc” about 2 months ago! Not only have heard from several sources that his ethic was lax, I posted that during a conversation with Steve White here at Joe Buc! Mr. White stated that he thought Zuttah would step up, and I said I would trust his oppion in the matter! Look it it up!

  25. JimBuc Says:

    Molre stupidity, which I guess Joe will probably agree with too:

    eric Says:

    August 8th, 2010 at 1:59 pm
    The “play the best man” theory left the building long ago with this crew.

    Why do you think the Blocking Icon is roaming aroung one buc place.


    Eric — at the risk of pointing out your stupidity by stating the obvious, the article is about playing Vincent because he is the best man. With you the Bucs are hypocrits is they play Vincent and not playing the best man if they don’t? You are a great fan.

    By the way, did I miss part of the 2010 season? Did it start already? Maybe I missed Claytom playing? Eric, lots of guys on the team right now that will never play.

    Such a ridiculos blind hater.

  26. troxell8t8 Says:


    Thanks for all the hard work. However, as much as the plan is for youth, the number one objective of the plan is to protect Freeman. If Vincent who is older can do that, then he has to start over Zuttah. I would respectfully disagree for the team to suck it up and just live with Zuttah’s mistakes.

  27. Capt.Tim Says:

    And read you article about Zuttah and my post on that article. Exact same things I said today. I don’t have a readership, and so don’t find the need to post different opinions to prompt discussion. And before you call me out for ” never having heard that”, you should at least make sure you didn’t print an article questioning his work yourself!

  28. admin Says:

    Joe here,

    Capt. Tim – Wake up. HEre’s the link to what you’re talking about for all to see.

    There is not one source here from the Bucs that says Zuttah is lazy or lacks work ethic.

    You didn’t get it from the Bucs and you didn’t see it yourself.

  29. Apple Roof Cleaning Tampa Says:

    What I am reading between the lines is this. Zuttah is a backup, not a dominate starting guard. I bet we go with Vincent, and draft a truly nasty guard next year.
    Teams will continue to stack the line against us next year, until we prove we can pass the ball. IF we do, we can get by with average lineman. But only truly nasty run blockers, and tight ends who seal the corners, will allow us to run against an entire defense dedicated to stopping us. It is one thing to think we are a “power running team”.
    Opposing defenses will make us show them we are.

  30. eric Says:


    For such a nice guy non-hater, you sure like to call folks stupid.

    I would definately play VIncent if it would help the team win in 2010. I aint the one with the long term build only through the draft with the dream in charge mentality – that would be you sir.

    And, everybody knows that Clayton was brought back to camp due to the big contract, any other player who laid as big an egg as him would not have been. Bradley was already sent packing and he had better stats that Michael. It’s an example of the favoratism at work at One Buc. A broader example of the narrow issue of the post, or isn’t that allowed?

  31. thomas Says:

    How about shifting gears? This does have a relationship to O-Line issues.

    I am starting the countdown to our next head coach and I believe I have the perfect candidate for many reasons. The leading candidate for Head Coach in 2011 (when .500 might be a possibility if we add a few vets):


    Now the way I have it figured, if we lose our 11th game by week 14, maybe the Glazer kids will contemplate canning Rah, naming Bisaccia interim and we can overture for Mr. Grimm! At least we would have something interesting to talk about during the post/off-season because the only football being played in Tampa will be the OUTBACK BOWL!

  32. JimBuc Says:

    Joe, PR reported that the people inside OBP were not happy with Zuttah and that he has a sense of entitlement and was complacent. Are you saying the PR report was wrong? I know there is “not one source from the Bucs” in your article, and the PR article does not have someone on the record, but are you saying the PR article was wrong?

  33. JimBuc Says:

    Eric — not interested. You write just to fill up space. Don’t need to look any further than your comments here to see that. Find someone else to play your games with. Plenty of fish swimming around here.

  34. Larry Says:

    I don’t know where the small or slow comments came from. He’s a good sized LG and the most athletic the whole OL. Dude’s technique is just sub par and isn’t strong enough being the issues.

    Vincent wasn’t brought in for no reason, Zutt had his chance to really earn his shot but apparently hasn’t locked up the starting position like coaches wanted so competition was brought in. Nobody gets handed a job.

    Played terrible as a terrible starter last season after a somewhat promising season previously (same goes for the “goat”).

  35. thomas Says:

    I think that it is hilarious, that the two least credible commenters Jimbuc and Capt Dim are sooo worked up over this.

    All Joe did was point out another inconsistency guys – about inserting a 33 y.o. 10 year vet during a “rebuilding” year when you have a younger player to develop – Incidentally – you both have argued this same point when others have suggested adding younger vets by trade or FA.

    Nobody has a problem with signing Vincent for depth, but if you felt you needed a starter at Guard – well if the plan iss to “rebuild through the draft” why not draft one instead of the third Under Tackle or punter?

    The answer: there is no plan, this is make it up as you go, purge as many big contracts as you can, tell the public we are rebuilding, ride out the CBA issues and then reevaluate. This org is utter chaos and completely misdirected.

    And Jimbuc – Lastly you should call people STUPID especially when the point is obvious and one you have previously made.

  36. McBuc Says:

    Finny thing is, I think YAZ was being sarcastic, but je has not been on to let us know. Only a few more hours until we have preseason ball, and less than a week before we start to see the Bucs come together or fall appart. I believe they will start to gell and surprise Eric and Thomas. Have a great Sunday night everybody.

  37. thomas Says:

    You too McBuc! I sure hope that you are right but I must admit that the only “gell” that we can be sure of is Jimbuc’s gell all over his Mark Dominik poster and on his Glazer family photo! LOL

  38. eric Says:


    You took your ball and went home?


  39. JimBuc Says:

    Thomas — you and Eric make a beautiful couple. I know Eric is thrilled to be on your team.

    Joe — no comment on the PR article?

  40. FIRE GREG OLSON! Says:

    The world needs more eric and thomas’ like it needs more child molesters.

    Seriously, a “youth movement” doesn’t mean NO ONE UNDER 26 will play for this team, you morons.

    I like how Thomas is taking a shot at the Price pick when he’s tearing up camp (of course, it’s just practice asswhipes, i realize that. No need to go to the well for that rebuttal.)

    I’d love to know what these two losers do for a living that allows them to instigate arguments on the Internet all day.

  41. jlynch Says:

    Obvously the coaching staff thought Sears would be back and have Zuttah to back him up, So they didnt draft a guard. He must be an average player and not good enough to keep the pass rush up the middle stopped. Maybe they were to focused on Penn and got caught sleeping as usual and went and got a veteran player to start atleft guard. I seem to recall somebody onJBF saying Carolina let him go because he wasnt that good. Not good enough to play there but good enough for TB

  42. admin Says:

    Joe here,

    JimBuc – Joe is always very skeptical of unnamed sources at OneBuc. Most of the time it’s rumormongering. Joe frowns on regular use of such mystery sources. Call Joe old school, despite Joe’s revolutionary approach to covering the team. Maybe six times in two years has Joe cited such anonymous sources, and only once was it “the story,” (when Joe first reported that Lane Kiffin was shopping his dad around), as it was in this case with Zuttah and the colorful fellows.

    Yes, Joe is skeptical. Is Joe calling PR “wrong,” no. But not knowing the source or the context in which he or she is speaking is very important … Just saying there is no real evidence on Zuttah other than that anonymous, hidden behind paid content blast. …Given Zuttah’s background, durability and flexibility over his two seasons, it’s very odd that fans like Capt. Tim and anonymous sources are throwing him under the bus as lazy and incompetent.

    Vincent is here, and we’ll all cheer for him on gameday, but if he’s the starter, that’s not the plan we’ve all been asked to embrace. Unless he’s somehow light years better than Zuttah, he should be the backup, and then step in if Zuttah has to cover for Faine, Joseph or Penn.

  43. Capt.Tim Says:

    Yup, that’s one of the articles! And my post said then what I’m still saying now. And Joe, I know you have a web site, bit exactly how would that enable you to know what I’ve seem or who I talk to?? Is this also a psychic network site.? Either way, looks loke the Bucs are replacing Zuttah at LG . So I’ll take a “lucky guessed!”. Even they I’ve said they were looking for a LG for some time! Don’t want you to get anymore upset than you are now. You don’t seem to post as many cheerleader photos when you are bent outta shape, and that is really depressing:)

  44. eric Says:

    Ah a child molester allegation, from another “loving” bucs fan, followed by a homo reference.

    You guys are just awesome! Way to bring the conversation up a notch.

    I would think you would all be cheerful, with Rah’s opportunity at greatness just around the corner.

    Afer all, they are following the plan you adore, so “don’t worry, be happy”.

    Put some ambien in the koolaid tonite and get some rest.

  45. BamBamBuc Says:

    What I don’t understand is why everyone seems to think “the Plan” has to be all or nothing? Yes, the team wants to build through the draft, but that doesn’t mean they won’t bring in some FAs at positions they think need more competition (Vincent at LG and Jones at SS). Doesn’t mean they won’t make value trades for players to add depth or competition (Brown at WR). It doesn’t have to be ONLY through the draft or ONLY through FA. They are drafting players they think will help at key positions and bringing in vets at positions they didn’t have draft picks available to get. Give it a rest with “it doesn’t fit the plan”.

    It’s just like people on here taking Raheem literally word for word. It’s what he’s attempting to get across that matters, not what was actually said. Some people are not great communicators to the media, but communicate just fine to the players. Everyone here knew what he meant with the whole “take the underwear off and put your face on people” comment, but rather than take it for what he meant, he is ridiculed day in and day out.

    Everything has to be so “cut and dry” with everyone here. You want to know what the “plan” really is? Build a team of young talented players that can win long term while still working to win now. That’s the plan. If that plan means that Vincent starts over Zuttah because he’s the better player, or because Zuttah is the more versatile backup, then that’s the plan. No hypocrisy, no backtracking on what was said, just “the plan”.

  46. Patrick Says:

    At first i didn’t like the Vincent signing, but now I do. Though, I’m really surprised why no one picked him up. He helped block for that amazing Panthers running game so I’m thinking it will make Cadillac and the other guys better.

  47. FIRE GREG OLSON! Says:


    I didn’t call you a child molester, but now I will call you illiterate…

    You’d think a perfectionist, such as yourself, would be able to read.

  48. Rican Says:

    Vincent will start because he’s the better option. In the end, all this Zuttah has to play cause he’s young talk means nothing. That argument is discredited even simply just by the signing of Vincent, which would never have been done if they didn’t have questions about Zuttah’s play. He may be versatile, but obviously he’s missing something. I understand you like him Joe but it’s Vincent’s job to lose.

  49. JimBuc Says:

    Joe, understand the journalistic point you are making. However, Vincent IS evidence of displeasure with Zuttah. Whether it is his performance (i.e. lazy, unmotivated or overmatched) or just circumstantial (i.e he is really a center trying to be a guard because the team is thin) is a matter of opinion or specualtion and something we will probably learn more about as the season progresses.

    Joe, Vincent may not be part of the rebuilding plan, but then again the same could be said about Zuttah, right? Rebuilding does not just mean YOUNG. It means trying to identify guys to build the team around. By your logic, the Bucs would start failures just because they were young?? I know you cannot mean that. Vincent is probably a sign that the Bucs don’t think Zuttah will develop into the guard they want or they want to see if he can. Either way it does not mean he has no value. Maybe he is valuable for his flexibility or maybe he is better suited to be a center? Who knows, but just because the Bucs are trying to rebuild does not mean that a weaker player starts over a stronger player, nor does it mean that the Bucs are “hypocritical” just because they reach the conclusion that one of their young guys is not getting it done. The hypocrisy calim is just silly. Leave that line of thought to the Erics and Thomases of the world.

  50. JimBuc Says:

    BamBam — no reasonable person thinks the rebuilding plan is all or nothing. The unreasonable cry “hypocrisy” because they have an axe to grind

  51. BamBamBuc Says:

    Hey Joe…. if that’s true (If the Bucs’ plan is to develop youth, then there’s no reason not to suck it up and roll with Zuttah, who should be improved in his third year.), then couldn’t the same be said about Sabby the Goat? Why’d they bring in Jones. Shouldn’t they just suck it up and roll with Sabby?

  52. Tom Says:


    Have you by chance paid any attention to Zuttah when he has been playing in training camp? Any at all?

    Let’s assume that you haven’t and there’s a chance that Zuttah has been gawd-awful throughout much of it. Being used like a turnstyle by Gerald McCoy and others, and getting blown backwards much of the time…Wouldn’t it make some sense to ask someone; sources or coaches on how he has fared since you haven’t been paying attention and they have? Wouldn’t that make sense? You have access right? I suggest you use some of it.

    Then, if it turns out that Zuttah is closer to not making the team than he is starting, wouldn’t it makes sense to move on (would the fact the Bucs made a late offseason aquisition of Vincent not tip you off to his performance?), or is it only ok to move on with young players named Sabby Piscitelli when they prove bad.

    You are aware that Sean Mahan once filled in admirably at Center for Jeff Christy in 2004 (part of the reason Pit went out and signed him to play center years later), only to prove later on that he was incapable of recreating that late season performance ever again. D-lineman study film like everyone else, once they find a weakness they exploit it, and like with Mahan, that weakness is being exploited in TC…if you were paying attention.

  53. eric Says:

    Fire Greg Olson,

    Ok, you only compared me to the worth of a child molester, my bad.

    Only 35 days till Rah unleashes his greatness on the NFL…………….I almost feel sorry for those bastards on the schedule.

    tick tock.

  54. Rican Says:

    Idiots would play a worse player simply because they are younger. I refuse to believe our Bucs are those idiots.

  55. thomas Says:

    A guy named “fireGregOlson!” has the nerve to call us instigators! Well hypocritical much!Also, today is Sunday jac-ass!. BTW – what does the nature of our professional lives have to do with football? Whether any of us dig ditches

    Also, the only thing that Price has torn up lately in camp is his hamstring!

    Now as for expecting Sears to come back and start – well that wasnt too bright if that was the case – being that he had/has a mental illness which makes him non-communicative.

    I also find it funny that Capt Dim is calling someone lazy – based on his descriptions of his liffestyle I would say that LAZY would probably apply.

  56. admin Says:

    Joe here,

    To JimBuc and Tom, you can’t compare Piscitelli and Zuttah’s situation. Zuttah is a third-year guy who just turned 24, and nobody, I mean nobody was moaning publicly about his play last year. The Bucs didn’t even draft a left guard. And the guy is an O-lineman where he’s supposed to take time to mature, versus where it happens faster at safety.

    Piscitelli is fourth year guy who turns 27 in a couple of weeks. He was dreadful in his third season as a second round pick. And even the head coach said he needed to “fix” him this offseason.

  57. Rican Says:

    Oh and many of you will eat your words by the time this season is over, Eric especially you. As a Buc fan just seeing the fact that you have posted sucks the life out of me. I don’t see how you can be a fan when all you do is spread negativity. I don’t care what coach we have you will NEVER be happy. The Bucs are on there way up. Don’t get me wrong i’m not claiming championship but they are doing what they gotta do. I especially believe the defense will astonish the league this year. I am excited to be a Bucs fan. Funs an attitude not an activity so just get over yourself.

  58. thomas Says:


    Case in point of young guy being handed a job: Kyle Moore – handed the starting job b/c he is a young draftee! Zutah was prior-this regime so he can be more disposible without these bafoons taking criticism.

    Also, the whole philosophy of this regime was to fire all of the older “better” more expensive players to rebuild with unproven kids – so if your point was true – the whole rebuild plan fails logic!

  59. admin Says:

    Joe here,

    JimBuc – Weaker players start over stronger players all the time, especially when a team isn’t playing for a title. Not sure what you’re getting at there.

    It’s great that Vincent is here. It will be hypocritical and almost ridiculous if he’s starting. …All for playing the better guy, but it doesn’t fit “the plan.”

  60. Rican Says:

    So is Ronde, right??? From everything i’ve watched in Rah’s press conferences KM is doing what he’s got to do. I can’t argue that. As far as the purge, that was needed. Do you think it wasn’t? What player we released did anything of significance post-Bucs? Our team used to be a bunch of band-aid vets, I for one am excited for this team.

  61. BamBamBuc Says:

    Last year, when I was hearing “the plan”, they were saying they wanted to get the young guys the team had drafted out on the field and see what they could do. Guys like Sabby, Black, Hayes, Zuttah. They didn’t say “we’re gonna get these guys on the field this year and no matter whether they’re good, bad, or mediocre, we’re gonna start them next year too”. They didn’t draft competition for Sabby this year, they brought in a FA, so it’s very similar to the Zuttah situation. The team didn’t bring in competition for Black and Hayes. I’m only guessing that they feel those guys are what they had hoped, good solid young players that will fit what they want to do. As for Sabby and Zuttah, they didn’t show so much, maybe the team felt they would be ok if they couldn’t find a replacement for them or draft a replacement, but wanted to at least find some decent competition. I think they’ve done that, I applaud them for that, and anyone who’d rather play the 2nd best players on the team as starters is someone hoping we lose. If you want to win, you want the best guys on the field. You don’t go about things with an “Aw, what the heck” attitude, and play 2nd stringers just because.

  62. Rican Says:

    amen bam bam

  63. BamBamBuc Says:

    And eric, please don’t bring up the whole fantasy world of “If that’s true we would have signed every free agent known to man and had the best team in the whole world” scenario again. I’m saying field the best players they have on the team, not players they might have gotten if only they’d done this or that. You make it sound like every free-agent player (or even restricted free agent and players under contract that might be traded) is available to be had by one team. That one team can just go out and sign them all. That’s a fantasy world. We signed some free agents. We even made a trade or two. Was it the “World Beaters” you wanted? No, but not everyone is available to every team. If that were the case, we could have McNeil at LT, Brandon Marshall and Anquan Boldin at WR and maybe Vincent Jackson too. How about Chris Johnson at RB, the Titans were having trouble negotiating his contract. How about D’Brick from the Jets or Julius Peppers at DE. What the heck, let’s go get them all…..

    We have players on this team, and have added new ones through all three avenues. Draft, Trade and Free agency. The players that are here, the best should start, regardless of age. Screw people’s skewed thoughts about “the plan”. Any plan is not cut and dry, you have to be able to adjust as you go, depending on what you are and aren’t able to achieve. They couldn’t draft the guys they did and still draft a LG and SS, so they adjusted and got some guys to compete. Get over it, and let the best man play.

  64. Spirit of '76 Says:

    I agree with BamBamBuc that the best player will play. No hypocrisy.

    If Zuttah was making progress in OTA’s, the Bucs would not have picked up Vincent. Zuttah was serviceable last year but he was no where near the abilities of Sears and it showed in the line play last year. Vincent is closer in style of play to Sears. Big with a mean streak that can hold his own in Pass Pro while a dominate run blocker. He signed a two year contract that didn’t cost much and was incentive laden. Zuttah will be an important backup should something happen to any starter on the line.

    I look forward to the O-line being recognized nationally as a strength of our team and with that, the progress of the running game with less pressure to succeed for Josh Freeman. I think that offensively, we might be looking at a pretty decent output this year. When was the last time (come to think of it anytime) we could speak of that?

    We will probably address DE and OL in next year’s draft. So either Zuttah earns a starting position with better play in the future or he will remain a talented and versatile replacement.

  65. eric Says:

    Let the astonishment begin!

    But as far as who plays, all nfl teams have their favorites, especially if they are high draft choices. Bucs are no different. Might be a little more applicable in their case due to the rebuilding plan.

    Fat contracts also enter into it.

  66. JimBuc Says:

    Joe — the Zuttah and Piscitelli scenarios are EXACTLY alike, the only difference being the timing. Sabby was one of the young guys that the Bucs hoped had the talent to develop into a regular starter. It has not worked out that way so they brought in competition (an older veteran). That does not mean Sabby could not still win the job. Zuttah was one of the young guys that the Bucs hoped had the talent to develop into a regular starter. It does not appear to be working out that way so they brought in competition (an older veteran). That does not mean that Zuttah could not win the job.

    You seem to think they are different scenarios because Sabby was so awful last year?? That does not make sense. You are assuming that the Bucs are like you — i.e. only see players when they play. The Bucs watch players year round, right? Zuttah struggled at times last year and, according to the Bucs, did not do much during the offseason to improve. Either way, not playing well so bring in competition. Zuttah and Piscitelli are exactly the same, both have had an offseason and they both have this season to prove themselves by beating out a veteran.

    The “hipocrisy” thing is ludicrous, a weak, weak argument that people raise when they are angry at the Bucs (in this instance because you apparently disagree with the potential benching of Zuttah). Since when is everything absolute? So much for fair and balanced at Joe Bucs Fan. Joe is angry about his boy so he calls out “HIPOCRISY!”

  67. Capt.Tim Says:

    Ok, Joe. Here’s a peace offering! Perhaps my assessment of Zuttah was a Lil harsh today. I have stated repeatedly on the past that Zuttah did a fine job covering for Joseph. He also is versatile. I am not retracting my statements

  68. The D Says:

    Zuttah wasnt getting the job done. Period. Should they have drafted someone for the future? Maybe, but we didnt. We signed KV. I think the reason is so that Freeman isnt getting pressure in his face on every play as soon as he gets the ball. We’ll draft a guard early next year or sign a young FA at the position.

  69. Louie the HATER! Says:

    The Buc knew BEFORE the draft that Sears was not going to work out. They cut him the Monday after the draft. So, they took a risk not drafting a guard and it blew up in their face (what’s new?).

    The thing I’m worried about with Vincent is he was still on the market in July. Why would no other team sign an experienced guard if he was any good at all — especially in a weak year for FA’s??? I’m not holding my breath on Vincent being the savior a lot of people are saying he is.

  70. Capt.Tim Says:

    Damn it!! – about Zuttah’s work ethic. One of you two joes always seems hostile at Capt.Tim ? What’s up? I like this site, but it’s your Site- want me post elsewhere, say the word!

  71. Louie the HATER! Says:

    …even more inexcusable is they had ALL of last year to evaluate Zuttah and they just figured out in July that he’s not going to hack it???!!!

  72. Spirit of '76 Says:

    Louie, I didn’t say that KV is our savior. He is an upgrade over the player he is replacing. Don’t forget that we may still wind up tweaking the roster when other teams start to cut down rosters. We may still find some decent line help.

    Next year we will draft a monster LG or find a FA. there will be a lot of FA coming out next year.

  73. Rican Says:

    You’ll never know a pressure of a position till you under it.
    *sighs* I forget we all work in FO’s and are head coaches in our own minds. And its so so easy….. lol

  74. thomas Says:

    My final comment on this subject:

    1) The point that I believe Joe, Eric and myself are making is not that you should not start the best players, it is that you should have a consistent and cohesive plan and stick to it;
    A) You should not give Kyle Moore different treatment just because you picked him, I believe that Crowder is a much better player and earned the job last year;

    2) When adding a vet WR or DE or RB last year via Free Agency the standard rely was – adding 30+ year old stop gap players while we are “going young” doesn’t make sense;
    B) If so, then how does it make sense to plug in Vincent over Zuttah or another younger player? It doesnt in any way shape or form.

    3) This is more of what got this team in trouble last year, 1/2 as- committed to the plan. It was idiotic to start Leftwich and spend the money on Lefty, McCown, Nugent, Crowell etc and still try and start a rebuild.

    I think that we all understand that “the best player should play” but why play the 33 y.o. who has no future with your team when you have no shot of winning anything? Everyone with a brain knows that the only thing that this group will be competing for is the First Overall Pick – and that will sting the Glazerhouses!

  75. tampa2 Says:

    Awww! Poor Tugboat Timmie got his feelings hurt! Boo Hoo

  76. Capt.Tim Says:

    The plan is develop young , talented players. Sears loss was not something you could plan for. Zuttah has struggled on the left side. He isn’t the long term answer. Obviously, you don’t play him, just because he’s young, even though he sucks at LG. You get a good LG to help the team run and pass this year. You draft the ” next” future LG next year, as Sears should have held that spot for the next ten years. Suggesting you start an inadequate player, because of any Plan or youth movement, obviously would be idiotic! The plan is develop GOOD young players!

  77. BamBamBuc Says:


    Consistent and cohesive plan….. that is unalterable when circumstances dictate??? They do have a plan, they are sticking with it, but circumstances dictate they deviate slightly for the betterment of the team in one situation temporarily.

    I agree about Crowder, I like the guy and think he fits a 4-3 defense and will do well. He was released from the Broncos because they switched to the 3-4. However, I don’t know what Moore has shown in OTAs or Training Camp so far that the coaches believe he is the #1 guy at LDE over Crowder. Until I can see them play, I won’t say they handed anything to anyone.

    Last year, they did add K2, they also franchised AB (ok, not 30+, but not 24 either). They added Ward (again, not 30+, but not a youngster) and didn’t give “fan favorite” Kareem Huggins a chance. Doesn’t Huggins fit the “Aw, what the heck, start the young guy anyway” mentality? I’m guessing they figured Ward was better than Huggins and played him. Which is why they’d also play Keydrick Vincent.

    And once again with the plan….. for anyone that has ever set a goal, and a plan to achieve that goal…. you should know that sometimes you have to alter the plan from time to time in order to still achieve the goal. You don’t throw away the plan, you make adjustments where necessary and continue towards your goal.

  78. Tom Says:

    “it is that you should have a consistent and cohesive plan and stick to it;”

    As the old saying goes, ‘there is an exception to every rule except this one.’

    To actually think that because you want a youth movement that EVERY young player should start regardless of their play and that you should avoid ALL veterans because of the lack of long-term value is extreme. If you were to create a spectrum that plan would be firmly on one edge of it, it’s something a child would think of, not something borne in actual reality, it is the height of idealism.

    When creating a football team you can go a variety of different ways, but to expect all 22 starting positions to firmly embody the same message is childish. Go and draft a team on Madden, have a young Guard with a 71 rating and tell me if you don’t sign a veteran to shore it up even IF you are trying to go young.

  79. BamBamBuc Says:

    The funniest thing about this whole conversation is that the people saying to start Zuttah, because Vincent deviates from the plan… are the SAME GUYS THAT HATE THE PLAN!!!! Eric, thomas, tampa2, and everyone else is saying how this move doesn’t fit the plan, but they HATE the plan. They think signing FAs and winning now is the better way to run a team, and they’re the ones bitchin’ about a FA beating out “the plan”

    Some people bitch just to bitch….

  80. Rican Says:

    “Some people bitch just to bitch….”
    BamBam, you have found the answer lol

  81. YReceiver Says:

    There exists a continuum of strategies. One is playing the youngest team possible, maximizing development and youth. This allows a team to always get better, but it does not ensure competitiveness, and you lose the benefits of having veteran leadership and knowledge. The result is akin to a minor league team. While the Bucs have preached and followed this recently (perhaps to a slight fault), the purest form of it remains an extreme to be avoided.

    The other end is always playing who is best at that moment and who will win you the most games that very day. This maximizes your chances of winning that day, but stunts your potential to improve. The result is…well, it was outlined a bit by the old Gruden teams. In its purest form, the team is static in the short term and declining in the long term, and will always rely too heavily on outside luck (aka free agency).

    To reside on either extreme is foolish. Thus, I believe the Vincent signing was a great idea. It addresses a spot that, in my opinion, was weak in many of the games I witnessed last season. If there were high-performing older players on the team (and there are: Barber), this would not be at such a contrast to other recent front office moves. And, like some commenter said, if the coaching staff saw more potential out of Zuttah, perhaps they may have been more inclined to leave the spot as is.

    Regardless of what they saw, Vincent will either 1) push Zuttah to get better or 2) give Zuttah an opportunity to grow on the sidelines, thus balancing short-term needs with long-term vision.

  82. JimBuc Says:

    thomas Says:

    August 8th, 2010 at 6:31 pm
    My final comment on this subject:

    LOL. Wish that that was true.

  83. thomas Says:

    Other people swallow just to swallow . . .

  84. eric Says:

    Shhhhhhhhhhhh don’t tell anybody else about the plan, the other 31 teams might find out about the NFL Draft…………….

    As we all know, it was invented in 2009 by Mark Dominik.

  85. JimBuc Says:

    Knew this was too good to be true:

    “thomas Says:

    August 8th, 2010 at 6:31 pm
    My final comment on this subject:”


  86. JimBuc Says:

    Eric, way to erase any doubt.

  87. eric Says:

    Whew, thank goodness your talking to me Jimbuc, i thought I offended you!


  88. Louie the HATER! Says:

    @Capt.Tim: “Sears loss was not something you could plan for.”

    Huh? Sears wasn’t there ALL last season AND they knew they were going to cut him at the time of the draft. I’d say they have plenty of notice, but still chose not to draft a gauard.

  89. eric Says:

    Im watching the damn Hall of Fame game.

    Im a total loser……………

  90. DRB Says:

    So let me get this strait………. The weak link on the O-line last season was Zuttah right?………

    So the Bucs bring in a proven “road grader” at 6’6″ and 325lbs to fix the weak link…………

    And some of you have a problem with that?????????????????????????????

    This is the most reactionary, front running fan base I have ever seen or been part of.

  91. Capt.Tim Says:

    No- they didn’t know they were cutting him . They were confident he was making progress in his battle, and would play this year. I hoped they could draft a guard also. But instead of who? Williams? Benn? Don’t trade up and lose Benn? they dud the right thing. Vincent will be an improvement this year, can draft a guard, DE,And Rb next year! Can’t rebuild Rome in a Day. Vincent will be immediate help to Freeman and Caddy this year!

  92. eric Says:


    I got no problem with it at all.

    I just wish we had done more of the same!

  93. Capt.Tim Says:

    DRB- you can’t win! they cry if a player sucks, and you don’t replace him. Then, they sign a good player to replace him, and they cry about that! Seems pretty simple. Obviously, on a 3-13, quite a few guys weren’t doing their job! Bucs sign a better player, they cry like it’s a team full of allpros! Zuttah was the weak link in the line last year. He’s lost his spot to a better, more physical guard. Only here would that send people into a frenzy . It’s just hilarious how every one crucifying the team last year, bitches when then change this year!

  94. admin Says:

    Joe here,

    Capt. Tim – You are always welcome. Nothing personal. Just commenting on your calls.

    For me, there’s no evidence that Zuttah sucks as bad as most are making him out, let alone the character assassinations of his “bad work ethic.”

    Find me someone who during last season called out Zuttah for his bad play?

  95. admin Says:

    Joe here,

    JimBuc – JimBuc – Not understanding why you can’t comprehend what I wrote:

    JimBuc wrote: “You seem to think they are different scenarios because Sabby was so awful last year?? That does not make sense. You are assuming that the Bucs are like you — i.e. only see players when they play. The Bucs watch players year round, right? Zuttah struggled at times last year and, according to the Bucs, did not do much during the offseason to improve. Either way, not playing well so bring in competition. Zuttah and Piscitelli are exactly the same, both have had an offseason and they both have this season to prove themselves by beating out a veteran. ”

    *Joe says Sabby is three years at the same position and by official Bucs evaluation he stinks, and the fans see it, too. Zuttah, after two seasons, has had success and nobody at OneBuc has said he can’t get it done. And you won’t find anyone on these boards or anywhere who last year (key words: last year) said Zuttah is the problem.

    This is nowhere close to the same situation with these players.

    Again, I hope Vincent is a Pro Bowl world beater. But if he and Zuttah are close, there’s no way Zuttah doesn’t belong starting. He’s 8 years younger. He should improve. He keeps the continuity on the line, which every freaking expert says is importnant. And he knows the system. …He therefore fits “the plan.”

    JimBuc also wrote: “The “hipocrisy” thing is ludicrous, a weak, weak argument that people raise when they are angry at the Bucs (in this instance because you apparently disagree with the potential benching of Zuttah). Since when is everything absolute? So much for fair and balanced at Joe Bucs Fan. Joe is angry about his boy so he calls out “HIPOCRISY!”

    I’m not angry one bit. I’ll just be very confused if Vincent is the starter unless he shows he’s a superstar in these preseason games.

  96. DRB Says:

    Why would they bring Vincent in if he wasnt’t much of an upgrade over Zuttah???

    Not for depth, Vincent only plays guard…………

    Sorry Joe, I just don’t get your point- you don’t think Zuttah was the weak link do you??????

  97. Capt.Tim Says:

    Thank you Joe, I love this site and the people who post here. It’s the best! As far as commenting on my calls, probably a good idea , as I am frequently full of B.S.! Which in no way stops me from sounding all- knowing. As Far as Vincent and Zuttah, just watch their tape from last year. They had lots of common opponents. I know which one I want on my team starting.

  98. JimBuc Says:

    Joe, your own words hint at the weakness of your argument. You describe Sabby as “three years at his position.” Joe, his first shot at starting and playing as the legitmate first was last year. So, just like Zuttah they were both given a shot last year, right?

    Joe says:

    “I’ll just be very confused if Vincent is the starter unless he shows he’s a superstar in these preseason games”

    Joe, you clearly assume hat Zuttah has potential. Have you considered that the Bucs might not see it that way? I presume you would agree that if he does not have potential no harm in starting Vincent, right? Especially when the best thing for Freeman is a running game.

  99. gotbbucs Says:

    I think the thing is, Zuttah was never drafted to be a starter for this O-Line as a rokkie or second year man, he was always going to be a developmental player. Gru/Allen drafted him because he was ultra smart and could learn muliple positions as a back-up. When he stepped in for Joseph as a rookie he didn’t set the world on fire or look like a pro bowler. I remember him getting his ass handed to him quite a few times, but people were alright with it then because he was a rookie thrust into a bad situation and knew that eventually Joseph would come back. Then comes last year when the Sears debacle happened people expected him to be able to step into the starters role since he had that experience from the year before, only last year his mistakes that he had had the year before became magnified because he was now a full time starter. Zuttah didn’t suddenly become a worse O-Lineman, his film was now out there from the year before though and D-lineman got a chance to study those weaknesses in his game.

    Zuttah is still young so he still has a chance to develop but right now the Bucs have too many young guys to develop on the offensive side of the ball to take any chances with the O-Line being the reason why all of the young skill positions don’t develop.

  100. Javier n Wimauma Says:

    If CaptTim can’t handle Joe’s articles/ comments then yes, you need to go post elsewhere tim.

    If JimBuc wants nothing to do but try to sucker Joe into his little flame fests, the yes Jimmy, go find someone else to flame. You are not gonna change Joe’s mind, mainly because you are hands down terrible at convincing anyone into any topic. Don’t EVER become a lawyer or a sales man.

    Of all the comments on this topic, there were only two people who said what mattered, the Bucs need Freeman and the WRs to grow the most on offense at this time, and it is more beneficial to have a line that doesn’t leak like a sieve than just play young guys on the line to develop them.

    Freemand the franchise QB needa to show improvement and fast…… and why? Because that will be the only way for Raheem to keep his job.

    I also agree that Raheem’s last year is this one. Hopefully that doesn’t upset you apologists when Raheem isn’t brought back as the HC.

  101. Louie the HATER! Says:

    @Capt.Tim: “No- they didn’t know they were cutting him”

    They cut Sears on April 26th — 2 days after the draft. I’m pretty sure they knew they were going to cut Sears before the draft.

    So, why not draft a guard if they didn’t have confidence in Zuttah? They saw the guy play all last season. It’s not like Zuttah is an unknown.

    I think it’s entirely possible Vincent was drafted for depth at guard. They signed him very late in the process. Maybe they realized they had NO depth behind Zuttah?

  102. Spirit of '76 Says:

    The line last year of Penn, Zuttah, Faine, Joseph and Trueblood had a weak link and that was Zuttah. It was magnified when Faine went down and the player, whose name I still can not say, subbed in. Zuttah was exposed. After Faine came back, Penn started to grow and was not the player he had shown. Again Zuttah was on an island and the tape shows he was not a starting O-lineman. A very nice back up who can play multiple positions. A smart player who might develop but not a starter. Maybe next year.

    It’s interesting to see the posters on this board. There are the positive ones who support the Bucs, want to see them make progress, and win. And then there are the those who search for fault , criticize everything and pray they lose every game. Me, I’d like my Bucs to win.

  103. Spirit of '76 Says:

    One more thing about the depth of the O-line last year. Don”t you think for a second that if the Bucs had a capable backup Guard on the roster last year, that after the first game that Faine could not play and the person whose name I can not mention was exposed as a fan from the stands, they wouldn’t have moved Zuttah to center? Roll that around in your mind for a second.

    We’ll have a better idea of what we have in next weeks game with Miami as to back-up linemen. But I’m not holding my breath that there is much depth there this year too. I pray our starters stay healthy.

  104. BigMacAttack Says:

    1 more week…

  105. gotbbucs Says:

    You’re right ’76, it’s imposible to say without getting sick.

  106. Tom Says:

    The fallacy in Joe’s argument is that it is or would be a close competition between Zuttah and Vincent. The idea Joe has is that Zuttah is a legitimate starter in this league and one with potential. I, and, it appears, the Bucs coaches disagree with Joe.

    I suggest Joe go to his sources to see how Zuttah has fared this offseason, TC and last year. Ask pointed questions as coaches will rarely call a player out, maybe even get some vaunted off-the-record speak from players like the D-Lineman he goes up against. Maybe then Joe’s glasses won’t be so rose colored when speaking of the 24 year old future backup.

  107. JimBuc Says:

    Only one guard – out of 84 players – gave up more pressures than Zuttah last year, and he was ranked 79th overall.

    Bottom ten guards

    Name Team PBP
    Ben Hamilton Denver Broncos 6.07
    Mike Williams Washington Redskins 5.9
    Daryn Colledge Green Bay Packers 5.31
    Floyd Womack Cleveland Browns 5.19
    Mike Goff Kansas City Chiefs 5.14
    Manuel Ramirez Detroit Lions 5.11
    Chris Morris Oakland Raiders 4.89
    Eric Steinbach Cleveland Browns 4.68
    Todd Herremans Philadelphia Eagles 4.66
    Jeremy Zuttah Tampa Bay Buccaneers 4.65

  108. Jonny Says:

    Jeremy Zuttah sucked at pass blocking last year. He also sucked at run blocking more. He may be replaced by a veteran just like Sabby might be. Similar situations and yet some are finding fault with management with just one of these situations. Hypocrisy much?

  109. Jonny Says:

    Nailed it Tom.

  110. admin Says:

    Joe here,

    JimBuc – This is not a statistical argument. And when it comes to offensive line stats, they are very subjective, especially pressures. If you look up sources for “sacks allowed” last year for Zuttah, Vincent and other starting guards, I’m sure you won’t want to publish them here to support whatever it is you’re trying to say.

  111. admin Says:

    Joe here,

    Tom – You’re saying Joe has a “rose colored” view of Zuttah. Never has Joe written that he’s a great player, or even above average. The only point made is that if Zuttah performs close to what Vincent does this presason then Zuttah should be the starter because that fits the plan. Also, given Zuttah’s body of work, there’s every reason to believe he will improve, especially going against our hungry D-tackles in practice.

    For some reason you’re assuming Joe has not talked to any insider (player, GM, coach, etc.) with knowledge of the left guard situation. That would not be correct. …You don’t read on this site things like, “Joe’s hearing” or “Whispers around One Buc …” This site is just never going to go there. Those fine men at One Buc who trust Joe with information will not be compromised in any shape or form.

  112. Capt.Tim Says:

    Why not Joe? I know it is unethical to print a rumor as fact. But if allwe get is official press releases and statements, we never get the teams opinion! I’m sure lots of players have opinions on Zuttah, Sabby, etc. While they may ‘ve willing to tell you off the record, I’m sure they don’t want their name attached to it! Sometimes it’s nice to know how the team is feeling. The ole” privately, several team members have voiced their concerns about John Doe starting at LT. He has struggled in camp so far!”. ultimately,none if our opinions make any difference to anyone, anyway! I don’t see where a truthful” opinion around camp” story hurts, as long as it is valid and truthful! I mean, we are just talking about a game- not a war or policy !

  113. McBuc Says:

    I have to agree with Joe on this one. If Zutta is close he should get the nod. He has a greater upside for the future, and more games will speed up his development. If Vincent is light years ahead of Zutta, well than Zutta should return to his backup role. No matter how you slice it… it is good to have both of them on the roster. If Zutta starts and Fayne goes down, we plug in Vincent and move Zut to center.

    Joe is not saying that “the plan” cannot adapt to changes, he is saying that Zutta has not really shown that he is not part of said plan. His argument is logical.

  114. JimBuc Says:

    Joe, the entire foundation of your point of view on Zuttah, particularly as he compares to Sabby, is the Zuttah perfromed well. I was just pointing out that that might not be the case.

    Interesting response to stats. Everyone’s the same way. Love them when they support, discredit them when they do not.

  115. JimBuc Says:

    I agree that if Zuttah is close to Vincent he should start. However, the early reports seem to suggest he is not. The best thing for the Bucs is for Zuttah to perform, so I am pulling for him.