Winslow, Ruud, Penn And Cash
May 19th, 2010
Interesting series of events in recent days for the Bucs.
First, arguably the Bucs best player, offensive tackle Donald Penn, frustrated with not getting the money he feels he deserves (and isn’t exactly out of line in asking) has decided to fish or play golf or play chess or pick his toenails as opposed to participating in OTAs this week.
(Linebacker Barrett Ruud tried a similar stunt last year, which proved futile.)
Hours later, it was learned a guy who, before he ever took a snap with the Bucs, Kellen Winslow, was rewarded with the richest contract for tight ends in the NFL, despite not exactly being the model of health, missed OTAs this week as he is recuperating from knee surgery, his fifth in as many years.
This news moved Ross Tucker to keyboard.
Currently a columnist for SI.com and a host on Sirius NFL Radio, the former NFL offensive lineman and graduate of Princeton University (yeah, that Princeton), Tucker has long been a backer of Ruud and a critic of Bucs general manager Mark Dominik for not showing Ruud the money. Tucker could stay silent no further upon learning of Winslow’s recent surgery and fired off a testy message to the Bucs hierarchy on his Twitter feed.
Good thing they gave [Winslow] a new contract instead of B. Ruud & D. Penn. Unreal.
If Tucker wants to make an argument Penn should be paid, Joe has absolutely no issue with Tucker. If Tucker is suggesting Ruud should get a raise, Joe might want to remind Tucker of the Bucs’ porous defense last year, specifically up the middle. Far too many times Joe saw Ruud chasing ballcarriers, not stopping them.
Joe’s not anti-Ruud and thinks Ruud is a way cool guy. But if Tucker is looking for an example of some Bucs player who is being jobbed by Team Glazer and being underpaid, Ruud isn’t exactly the guy to hoist up as some sort of martyr.
At least, not based on last year’s (lack of) production.
May 19th, 2010 at 8:03 am
very good point not only did they give winslow the money they also gave Clayton the money . If Rudd leaves who will replace him? or even if Penn leaves who will replace him ? I hope they dont think X vaier fulton cause my ohio state buckeyes use to eat him for lunch
May 19th, 2010 at 8:22 am
Tell me who is out there right now that is better than Ruud? He’s not the next great LB, but he’s above average, albeit exposed a little because of a poor front 4. Pay the man, Penn too.
May 19th, 2010 at 8:25 am
http://www.nfl.com/players/barrettruud/profile?id=RUU402541
That’s Ruud’s profile. By NFL standards his stats went up last year or stayed pretty much the same. I will say this again, most of the people using the BS “he made tackles down the field” talking point against him never played defense and dont know what they are talking about. Even people I like on a personal level are full of shit on that account. He wasn’t Ray Lewis but he played well enough to get a new contract plain and simple. It is what it is.
May 19th, 2010 at 8:51 am
Time to get a REAL MLB in Tampa. Unfortunetly for those Ruuuuuuuuud supporters, the tackles downfield does matter and is not BS. Ruud is consistently in the wrong Gap and gets run over and dragged more than any MLB I have ever seen. I have seen enough. The 32nd ranked Run defense speaks for itself. RUUUUUUUUUUUUUD SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKS.
May 19th, 2010 at 9:04 am
Me thinks the Glazers, despite the “long term” talk, wanna see something considerably better than 3-13 before they start slinging $ for long term contracts, including one for Coach Morris.
On that issue they are thinking “short term”.
May 19th, 2010 at 9:05 am
I think Ruud can be replaced next season via free agency, but Penn can’t so easily. It sound like Penn will show up in stellar shape and deserves a nice contract. I don’t think he should be the highest paid OT in the league but he is top 10 and that is where his pay should be, about 10’th. I can’t believe he would not accept that. Too many things at 1 Buc still don’t make much sense.
May 19th, 2010 at 9:10 am
@SGW94,
With all due respect, I have to disagree with you. After Ruud held out last offseason, during a change in defensive philosophy, I don’t believe he deserves a new contract. Ruud is definitely overrated in the eyes of Bucs fans…
May 19th, 2010 at 9:23 am
@Hosstyle
But what is the alternative to Ruud? A good FA MLB is gonna be real expensive, and a rookie learning the position will set things back yet again.
Ruud makes the defensive calls, doesn’t he?
A bird in hand……………..
May 19th, 2010 at 9:26 am
I think Ruud also suffered last year from poor DLine play. With the new guys up front I think Ruud will have a better year. Of course that will drive his asking price up, so signing him now would be smart — not that the Glazerhouse’s have been accused of being smart recently.
Penn is in a much better position that Ruud was last year and might just be able to force a new contract or a trade. Penn plays probably the 2nd most important position on the team and there is no depth behind him. If the Bucs try to play without him, Freeman is going to get killed this year. Freeman won’t have a chance to throw the ball to his new WR’s.
May 19th, 2010 at 9:29 am
Ruud is better than anyone else available. And since Tampa didn’t address MLB in the draft then they pretty much NEED to sign him or lose him. Another thing worth mentioning… the MLB is like the QB of the defense… in the past we had Hardy Nickerson (seasoned veteran) Jamie Duncan (young and pretty ok) then back to a vetern in (Quarles). You can’t just plug a rookie in at MLB and expect the defense to get better… it takes time for MLBs to develop into leaders of a defense. Considering that, Ruud’s experiences have generated the experience we NEED at MLB.
Our starting LT. Again, there aren’t any LT’s better than him in free agency. And the Bucs didn’t address the LT in the off-season…. so there you have it.
But the unquestionable fact of the matter… the Bucs claimed that they want to develop young talent… well, these two guys are young and developed in the Bucs system… which means Tampa needs to re-sign them…. AND DO IT BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE… because even half way through the season, if a player is performing, then the player and his agent will say, “Just wait a few more months and we will be sitting pretty baby! Oh don’t get hurt and I’ll show you the REAL money.”
This is the opportunity, NOW to sign these guys.
Rookies can’t take you to the playoffs year in and year out… TAMPA, RE-SIGN YOUR HOME GROWN TALENT IDIOTS!
Btw, I’m sure Raheem wants to re-sign these guys too… this falls directly on Mark Dom and the Glazers.
May 19th, 2010 at 9:31 am
@Eric
Shouldn’t you be running around telling everyone that the sky is falling?
May 19th, 2010 at 9:36 am
@RahDomDaBest
How do you figure that Ruud and Penn were “brought up in the Bucs system”, when the system, on both sides of the ball, was new LAST YEAR??? LOL…Seriuosly, some of you really need to evaluate whether you have the mental capacity to discuss any topic, regarding the Bucs, intelligently…
May 19th, 2010 at 9:41 am
@Hosstyle in Tampa, in case you missed it, the Bucs switched back to what they did before the Jagz and Bates failed experiments. So, who’s got the mental capacity problems?
May 19th, 2010 at 9:42 am
@hosstyle
Defensively, they shelved the new “Bates” system in favor of the longstanding Tampa-2, with a few wrinkles Raheem added. That happened in the second half of last year.
I think Ruud has played that system for years, sir, with the Buccaneers.
Given that, thank you for demonstrating your vastly supperior knowledge.
May 19th, 2010 at 9:49 am
He did miss it. And he misses obvious logic too.
The Bucs company line is building young, from within.
If they let solid players walk, then they are nothing more than a farm team.
Look, if they aren’t fully satisfied with Ruud or Penn, then go out and get better players. Can’t do it now, so re-sign them. THEN, draft their replacements. While the replacements are developing, trade them later… or cut them.
It’s called being penny-wise yet pound foolish… because in the long run WE WON’T WIN WITHOUT SOLID PLAYERS. If you don’t win then you don’t fill the seats as much… and if you are terrible like last year because we had no experience, then fans just stop showing up all together.
There really is no other alternative… otherwise, the pain we lived with having to watch Ruud and Penn make a few rookie mistakes here and there, will just continue with the next newbie.
May 19th, 2010 at 9:49 am
Winslow is elite, Ruud still need to prove himself, we needed Clayton for depth last year, Penn needs to show up to get a nice new contract. NUFF SAID, your all a bunch of rednecks anyway.
May 19th, 2010 at 9:55 am
Hosstyle in Tampa:
Your point about Penn may be valid but Ruud was drafted by the Bucs and will be entering his, what, fourth year as a starter after being a backup for two years?
May 19th, 2010 at 9:55 am
@Eric and Louie
So you both AGREE that Penn wasn’t brought up in the “Bucs’ System”…
And, here’s the hilarious part, especially since Eric is such a Raheem hater, you’re telling me that Raheem’s hybrid Tampa 2 is considered to be the same “system” as Monte’s?? LOL…The more you post, the dumber you sound. A “system” doesn’t exist merely on paper, it also has to do with having a rapport with the coaching staff…
No one on this team is so entrenched in the Bucs’ “System” (which seems to change on a daily basis) that they are irreplaceable…
May 19th, 2010 at 9:58 am
C Jags,
“NUFF SAID, your all a bunch of rednecks anyway”
If you are going to try and insult people try learning the difference between your and you’re.
And as for YOUR point that we needed Clayton for depth. YOU’RE probably right but there was no need to give him the huge contract that he recieved.
May 19th, 2010 at 10:01 am
@Hos, you keep believing what that little voice in your head keeps telling you.
May 19th, 2010 at 10:12 am
@hosstyle
“you’re telling me that Raheem’s hybrid Tampa 2 is considered to be the same “system” as Monte’s”
Yep. thats what I am telling you, and I believe it to be true, with some minor differences that doesn’t change the essence of the scheme. It surely wasn’t changed in any way that would have altered Ruud’s role in it. I think Monte had a big hand in inventing that defense.
Whether the Dream is capable of implementing it and making it work long term, I agree is highly questionable.
But the issue here is Ruud, and his previous play in the same or very similar system, which he has.
May 19th, 2010 at 10:20 am
Why does everyone keep ignoring the impending CBA issue when it comes to this?
It would be STUPID by the Bucs to restructure or renegotiate and pay ANYONE long term if they are already under contract.
May 19th, 2010 at 10:24 am
ERIC:
Raheems “Tampa 2” is not like Monte’s
He used the Tampa 2 base defense alot less than Monte did and Monte used it a lot less than Dungy did.
Basically they have gotten less and less conservative in their defensive philosophies.
Raheem plans on more blitzes, more 3-4, 5-2, and 4-2-5s. He wants to mix it up and attack weakneses. Basically he is copying what NE did very succesfully for years. that is a good thing… as long as the talent is there and that is getting there, although it might take another year to be real good.
May 19th, 2010 at 10:25 am
Hosstyle, Who did Raheem learn this type defense from here for 7 years? So his hybrid Tampa-2 is probably highly influenced by Monte and is very similar. Did you not watch the Bucs defense the last several years? Monte did alot of the things Raheem did in his hybrid T-2 D.
May 19th, 2010 at 10:33 am
@Dave
Getting beyond my Defendsive Coordinator skills, you may very well be right.
But is Raheem using Ruud any differently?
May 19th, 2010 at 10:37 am
Dave:
Joe hasn’t ignored the CBA expiring, or the likely pending labor stoppage. Whenever Joe brings that up, he gets roasted.
It’s the elephant in the room.
May 19th, 2010 at 10:50 am
If the CBA were NOT an issue, these guys would be signed long term.
May 19th, 2010 at 10:53 am
It’s not like the CBA issue just came to light this year — it’s been looming for a while. So, then why did they do a new contract for K2? He was already under contract, so they could have treated him just like Penn and Ruud. Instead, they are just pissing those guys off so nobody will be surprised if they bolt after this season.
…and the perpetual re-building continues!
May 19th, 2010 at 11:12 am
Maybe Ruud would have fared better without the worst two starting DT’s in the league in front of him. I think we’re ok with #51.
As for Penn, maybe he would get paid if he wouldnt balloon up to 380 every season and not be in the bottom 5 in the league allowing sacks, hits, and pressures.
May 19th, 2010 at 11:18 am
“Instead, they are just pissing those guys off so nobody will be surprised if they bolt after this season.
…and the perpetual re-building continues!”
Exactly.
The CBA will eventually get hammered out, there is too much money on the table for it not to.
The Bucs however can’t afford to lose players that they developed… SINCE IT’S THEIR GRAND PLAN. They aren’t going to be able to sign quality free agents because they won’t spend money AND they would have to pay through the nose to get them in Tampa vs the other winning/successful teams trying to sign them.
The Bucs have an opportunity NOW. If they think they are playing their hand smart, assuming that they are waiting for the CBA to be hammered out, then they are essentially risking the future again, on uncertainty… they are doing nothing more than betting that the CBA negotiations will run into a long strike/work stoppage. So, if they are wrong, then we lose out on developed talent.
I tell you what, I do not want to watch rookie mistakes forever, because our owners are to cheap to re-sign young developed talent. And you company shills are doing nothing but cutting off your noses to spite your faces.
Stop being morons and chasing these guys away because YOU think they don’t have a right to act on their leverage and ask for more money that THEY help bring to the franchise as a product.
If anything, 100% of the fans should be pissed off. after the ownership claimed they are re-building with young guys, won’t sign FA’s or veterans, sacrificing winning now for player development…. THEN TURN AROUND AND NOT SIGN THE EFFFING PLAYERS THEY DEVELOPED… THE SAME PLAYERS WE HAD TO WATCH ON THE FIELD GET OWNED FOR THE PLANNED YOUTH MOVEMENT.
May 19th, 2010 at 11:43 am
What would be awesome, IMO is that the CBA Agreement is reached, requiring more guaranteed dough on new contracts, and these owners pulling this “wait and see” crap end up getting screwed at the end of the day.
Joe, I must say your CBA opinion is looking better every day. It does seem to be a league wide position not to re-sign guys. I re-call any previous “roasting” from me on the subject.
However, the owners are walking precariously close to “bad faith”, which I am sure is not lost on counsel for the players asociation. SOme lawyers are gonna get rich off this baby.
May 19th, 2010 at 11:56 am
The CBA is real… no doubt about it. ESPN Magazine wrote a great article on it, in great detail, before free agnecy even hit. And they were right on every point. (I’ll see if i can dig it up).
Anyway, no one knows what the future holds… but no matter how much posturing and pre-season games missed, the NFL sides will reach an agreement because there is too much money on the table.
The point I’m making is clear… the franchise claimed they are going young to develop young guys… all because the team collectively lost last year, mostly due to coaching, their are still quality young players on the team, developed and needed as depth if anything else for the future. If the Bucs think they can replace them, then fine, but DO IT before not after they leave. Sign them now, draft players to replace them and then see who wins out… or go get a top notch free agent if you can land one… the latter is not in the bucs plans.
The NFL is more about player availability than good or poor player allocation decisions. If you didn’t replace him, or plan to replace him in the off-season, then you have to give in or risk losing said player, developed for years, for good. Drafting and developing takes a long time. So what happenes when you drafted/signed/developed a player 3 or 4 years ago just to let him walk away? Wouldn’t that be considered a complete wasted effort?
Carpe Diem Buccaneers.
May 19th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
Of course that CBA didn’t stop the Dolphins and the jets from making some good trades while the bucs had their heads up their ass.
Fins gave BM a big fat new contract if I recall, CBA notwithstanding.
So, lets not get too carried away giving the Glazer Boys a pass on this. Some teams have stepped up to the plate.
May 19th, 2010 at 12:10 pm
People who say you can’t get a rookie to succeed at MLB have never heard of Patrick WIllis or DeMeco Ryans…
May 19th, 2010 at 5:34 pm
Eric, Eric, Eric . . . I think you probably know that the issue with BM was the picks not just the CBA. Not sure why you like to keep banging your head against the wall?
(You are really angry about wide receivers Eric)
May 19th, 2010 at 5:41 pm
@jimbuc
Well i know but resigning a current player doesn’t require pics.
just pointing out the fins ponnied up 47 mil, thats all.
Yea im pissed about the wideouts.
May 19th, 2010 at 7:46 pm
The fins ponnied up 27 mill guaranteed (the only number that matters) AND 2 premium picks. The fins clearly think they are close to going all the way, as do the Jets, which I think was your other example. Apples to oranges
May 19th, 2010 at 8:10 pm
Giving Penn the one year tender for 2 seasons in a row is ridiculous!! Now I could understand maybe giving Cadillac a tender, but both Penn and Ruud should’ve received contracts a long time ago. They’ve proven themselves, they’ve earned it, they deserve it!
I’m so nervous just looking at how many of our key, impact players are going to be free agents next year. Jackson, Joseph, Ruud, Penn, Cadillac, Graham, White, Barber, Hayes, Trueblood. Shit, that’s a harsh list! I doubt the Glazers will write that many contracts next offseason! It seems like they just want to destroy the team from the Gruden era from head to toe. For being f****** 9-7! Jeez chill out, we weren’t the freaking Detroit Lions. By the way the Bucs have continued to put off giving our players long term contracts, it seems there’s just no stability around here. We should be trying to build around the players we have instead of going into another season with a bunch of uncertainty surrounding many of our key, impact players. I thought Ruud was supposed to be a big part of the foundation for the future of this franchise. It sounds like if Ruud, Penn, etc.. don’t meet “their expectations”, then we’ll be rebuilding all over again next year! Not just them but some other possible departures too. Then we’ll really be set back!
Hey, at least Gruden signed his players to deals and not cheap ass one year contracts. Look, I know some of ya’ll are sick of hearing about Gruden but he never made me feel so nervous as a buc fan like the current regime is.
May 19th, 2010 at 8:14 pm
I didn’t finish my statement above:
I know about the whole CBA issue and all, and I know that we can’t give all of our players contracts in one offseason. But they haven’t even done one contract! Not even one! We need to lock up one or two of our players permanently. Then me, along with many of you Bucs fans on here, can at least have a sigh of relief and know that the team is sold on some of our players!
May 19th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
Patrick — you are too funny
No one wants to “destroy” Gruden’s team. LOL.
May 19th, 2010 at 10:34 pm
The Glazers don’t give a f— about building a team if they won’t re-sign their own, home grown… plain and simple.
The message can’t any clearer. There is no way that they can hide form this fact now. They will have to put up or shut up.
And I personally think that they already lost Ruud… and many others.
May 19th, 2010 at 10:47 pm
Does anybody on here ever get outside and look around? The Bucs are not unique in their ways. Have you heard the words “lockout” and “collective bargaining agreement?” Everything is not a conspiracy. Business owners do not intentionally destroy their products people.
May 19th, 2010 at 10:49 pm
Two second Google search:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2010/05/nfl_insider_cleveland_browns_r.html
First paragraph:
“The five Browns’ restricted free agents who haven’t signed their one-year contract tenders have no leverage to force long-term deals and might soon see the club’s offers reduced”
Time to get outside and take a look around
May 20th, 2010 at 1:09 am
I’m with you JimBuc. You won’t be able to change the minds of the rest of these guys though. They’ve been bitching about every move this team has made for so long that posting anything positive would completely undermine what they stand for.
May 20th, 2010 at 8:59 am
All this bashing on Ruud’s performanve last year is so unfair. A majority of the season he played in a new system that not only did not fit him and didn’t fit most of the players on defense. Not to mention the terrible play (most of the time) by the front four allowing so much penetration to the linebacker level. Even Hardy Nickerson himself my all time favorite Buc would had a hard time. Give the man a chance in the sytem that he was drafted to play in with hopefully better play by the D-line.
May 20th, 2010 at 9:16 am
hdel3:
First, thanks for posting. Joe’s trying to be fair to Ruud, who really is a good guy. Last year playing in the abortion that was the Jim Bates Experiment was not the only time Ruud struggled. He vanished in the second half of 2008, a fact even he admitted to Joe last year.
If last year was the only time Ruud struggled, it would be easy to pass it off as the result that was the abortion known as the Jim Bates Experiment.