Baker Mayfield Seems To Believe He Had “A Great Year”
January 10th, 2024
Confident.
Joe believes this is significant as it relates to how much money Baker Mayfield will demand and/or command in free agency.
His contract expires after this season.
Today at One Buc Palace, Mayfield was asked if he has taken a moment to think about his strong stats for the 2023 regular season, career highs in touchdowns (28), yards (4,044) and completion percentage (64.3).
Mayfield said he hasn’t really spent time thinking about his numbers.
“Those are all great things,” Mayfield said. “I’m not going to, you know, not acknowledge it at least. But our goal was much bigger than just winning the division and for me to have a great year. We expected that within this building.”
Mayfield has had a great year in many ways, though Joe can’t call him a great quarterback.
Will Mayfield command a “great” contract for his level of play? A very confident man, Mayfield surely thinks he deserves one, as in the range of three years, $100 million, Joe believes.
Maybe the Bucs think he is deserving. Perhaps other teams do, too.
Ira Kaufman Reflects On No Report Or Announcement Of Todd Bowles Returning For The 2024 Season; Talks Eagles Matchup, Ways To Look At The Carolina Game, Bowles’ Grade For The 2023 Defense, And Much More
January 10th, 2024 at 6:53 pm
I support Mayfield this season, but a $33mil a year QB he is not
January 10th, 2024 at 6:54 pm
Well, if we want cheap maybe we can get Jameis.
January 10th, 2024 at 6:57 pm
Seattle had a QB that had a comeback year, got a nice deal, went to a wild card game, lost, followed up with a so so season, missed playoffs, and the coach is now out. Smith will probably end up a big money back up next year. Doubt there will be a lot of teams wanting to go that route.
If Mayfield can work a 30+ million a year deal good for him. P T Barnum’s slogan still applies today.
January 10th, 2024 at 6:59 pm
25 million with incentives.
January 10th, 2024 at 7:02 pm
Mayfield has had a great year for him. For100 mil over 3 years your taking money to sign Evans who raises Mayfield’s play. You take away Winfield who saves a win at the goal lines. Mayfield doesn’t raise the level of play of players around him. So if you give him that kind of money you hurt the team. Nope. Let another team be handicapped not this one. We want better. Not below average QB play. And that’s with Evans. What disappointment and boring offensive football we would get for two years. Because he would be benched before year 3.
January 10th, 2024 at 7:05 pm
Bucs are truly a miserly team. Always trying to get talent on the cheap. Mayfield had a pretty good season considering all he went through. Pay The Man. Like somebody else said, you want cheap? Famous Jameis is always available.
January 10th, 2024 at 7:07 pm
No thanks in big money. As the poster said above, you pay Mike Evans and AWJr.
This game is a must win for Bowles and Baker. Go Bucs!
January 10th, 2024 at 7:09 pm
Mike Johnson,
We only have so much salary cap to pay with, and I want Mike Evans. AWJr. , Wirfs and others that are worth that chunk of change.
If Jameis hadn’t pulled that stunt on Sunday to show up his coach, then he’d probably have more suitors. Coaches have to be terrified to have a player you can’t trust.
January 10th, 2024 at 7:16 pm
Raiders or Titans can offer pretty good money. But he should stay in Tampa and not start all over again. His # should be $35 to 40 Million and all you fake GM’s are clueless if you don’t see that type of money being given out. If they Franchise him he will get $35 Million most likely.
January 10th, 2024 at 7:21 pm
Baker fan! 35-40 million! Dear lord, if Baker values the situation in Tampa he won’t command anywhere near 40 million. He just played for 4 million and doesn’t have to pay state tax. Baker here’s $25 million for 3 years, take it or take your chances elsewhere. I would take him back but we need money for the other guys. Crazy to say, but as much as I appreciate Baker and having a competent QB, he is more easily replaced than our other priority signings.
January 10th, 2024 at 7:21 pm
Go win deep into the playoffs, then you had a great year. Other than that, you suck, and so does this team.
Competitive NFC Championship game or Clean House
Time to raise the standard around here.
January 10th, 2024 at 7:22 pm
$25 per, I wasn’t trying to say $25 over 3… that’s an insulting low ball haha.
January 10th, 2024 at 7:24 pm
I think he had a great year, given the last few years he’s experienced and the low expectations people had for this franchise. He’s obviously not a great QB, but you can win with him. You could win a Superbowl with him if the other parts of your team are in order. This team is not a Superbowl team because they can’t run the ball worth a sh!t but the keep building the offense around it. They’re also not a Superbowl team because the pass defense is vulnerable. #winwithbaker
January 10th, 2024 at 7:25 pm
If Baker is truthful about loving to play for the Bucs and the team around him, he will not demand more than the Bucs can pay. I could be wrong, but Baker has giant steps in maturity and judgment. With that he realizes, the importance of having not just top line coaches but above average teammates that in turn makes his success a lot simpler. Two years with a third-year option for 45million with 10 million in incentives. Way too many young guns on the horizon to over value ones self.
January 10th, 2024 at 7:27 pm
Why are reporters asking such stupid questions all at once. They should be asking How are you feeling, do you think you will be ready to go, will you be returning to practice tomorrow? Yeeesh! He was asked all those questions. –Joe
I wasn’t you that asked him that question was it Joe?
One man’s stupid question is another man’s smart question. No, it didn’t come from Joe. -Joe
January 10th, 2024 at 7:31 pm
Average
Doesn’t have a 2024 NFL arm
Can’t seem to find throwing windows
Holds on to the ball too long, doesn’t throw away to protect his passing stats ( a thought of mine watching this year)
You wanna know what attributes a top Quarterback has, watch them in the playoffs the weekend after this.
That said I hope he wins it all and hoists Lombardi
There ain’t no hope in football
January 10th, 2024 at 7:32 pm
a lot of stray cats have found their way to the board…and are not good additions 🙁
January 10th, 2024 at 7:33 pm
Risk/Reward. The only QBs that are cheap and good are on rookie contract or will be on rookie contracts. If the Bucs want to take a chance with drafting, good luck. It is money saved on a QB that could be used on retaining veterans. You will have to fire Bowles and elevate Canales to HC to make it work. And probably bet draft capital to move up to pick one of the top 3 QBs in the draft. And even then you are taking a big risk with someone very inexperienced at being a HC who has not successfully coached up a rookie. Canales had the luxury of coaching up veterans the past few years. If the fans on this board think we need to rebuild or risk the biscuit with mid-low level veterans or rookie QBs, I’ll take the under on making the playoffs next year. Who cares about playoffs when we’re saving cap. There’s always the year after next. Baker deserves $100M over 3 years. But not $100M guaranteed over 3 years. It’s pretty common and fair to give him 4 years for $125M with $75M guarantee. After 2 years, we can cut him or trade. That’s a team friendly deal with making the 4 years actually 6 with additional voided years. If he works out through year 3 and show elite results, then give him the premium pay on the next contract. Bird in the hand is like two in the bush.
January 10th, 2024 at 7:33 pm
When you finish in top 10 stats on a new team and new offense, it’s an incredible year
January 10th, 2024 at 7:34 pm
@ghost:
is anyone really a 33 million dollar qb…or is cleveland’s watson a 50 mil a year qb…or dak a 45 mil a year qb…???
baker is going to get a pay bump past geno smith’s contract last year…
so say 3 years 90 mil
but i say 3 years 100 will get it done
January 10th, 2024 at 7:37 pm
When will Joe let me out of the moderation doghouse? It’s been at least a year of this BS.
January 10th, 2024 at 7:38 pm
54.1 QBR – 18th in the league, Bucs offense is 20th in scoring, was last in scoring among QBs that started every game, 11 teams that had to play backup QBs scored more points.
He was mediocre overall, with a couple of great games, a couple of good games, and a bunch of bad games. If he goes out with three bad games in a row to end the year, when the pressure was on, there is no reason he should return, you can just get Gardner Minshew if you want a mediocre QB, and he’ll be a lot cheaper. Or better, go trade for Justin Fields, who has a huge upside and was a lot more consistent in the 2nd half of the year.
With that said, if Baker can go out and win a big game in prime time, he’ll be back. But he needs to actually do that, and he’s facing the 31st ranked pass defense, so this is as easy of a layup as there is.
January 10th, 2024 at 7:40 pm
Yea he is undersized, average arm strength and as a result cannot make $25 million dollars a year passes into tight windows. He proved it time and time again by missing those passes all year. Plus he only completed a full season 3 of his 6 years due to injuries, and is a “system” QB. In other words, he needs multiple HOF parts playing next to him, which he has, to be a starter. So he would be CRAZY to bolt for more money. He can’t carry a team. Not a slight on Baker, he is as tough as nails, he is just a “serviceable” QB with amazing leadership traits. Tim Tebow had them too though.
January 10th, 2024 at 7:41 pm
Bake is about to snake this team all the way to the Super Bowl. Offense is about to explode on MNF
January 10th, 2024 at 7:41 pm
I’d much rather the Falcons give Baker $100-million. What a coup if the Saints and Falcons are stuck with the two worst QB contracts in football while Bryce Young hopefully continues to struggle. That would keep the NFC South middling for a long time.
January 10th, 2024 at 7:41 pm
Yet another
“Check yo sheets” moment..
January 10th, 2024 at 7:43 pm
Smoothbayrider Says:
January 10th, 2024 at 7:41 pm
Bake is about to snake this team all the way to the Super Bowl. Offense is about to explode on MNF
===========
THIS IS THE BEST STATEMENT OF THE EVENING! NFL MVP BAKER ‘BIG GAME’ MAYFIELD IS ABOUT TO SHOW THE NFL WHAT A SCORING MACHINE LOOKS LIKE WHEN HE DESTROYS THE PHILADELPHIA EAGLES ON MONDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL ON SUPER WILD CARD WEEKEND! BUCS 55, EAGLES 10, IN A COMPLETE LAUGHER! GET YOUR GLOW STICKS READY, BECAUSE IT’S GOING TO BE A PARTY!!!
#TEAMPOSITIVE!
January 10th, 2024 at 7:44 pm
for him it was
January 10th, 2024 at 7:48 pm
eagles have collapsed since about midseason…
they we down cycling from about midseason on, even tho they still won a few more games at the time – before the big free fall…
jalen finger-hurts is overrated and that contract will bite the eagles moving forward…he’s just not that good…
remember when he used to just sit behind tua, twiddling his thumbs as the backup in college
January 10th, 2024 at 7:54 pm
You’re kidding……Bowles is still here?
January 10th, 2024 at 7:54 pm
Why not take another dip in the “prove it” year market? One year deal for Russell Wilson, draft another project qb and move on from Trask.
January 10th, 2024 at 7:55 pm
what if:
baker went to coach last sunday and said to him “let me tough this one out coach, i’ll let you know if i need to be pulled”…
and also said “coach i didn’t get paid sh!t this year, let me get my cool mill out there on the field vs my old team, let me make some money coach”
what if that happened and that’s why they never went to trask
January 10th, 2024 at 7:58 pm
Now that Carroll is available, can keep Baker in Canales system and bring in Dave’s buddy Pete to steer the ship. Easy transition.
January 10th, 2024 at 8:02 pm
adam from ny – What if the Bucs aren’t sold on Baker, and want to see how he performs in pressure situations before they’d give him a new deal.
So far, in the last two pressure games, with a home playoff game and possibly a new contract on the line, Baker has completely fallen on his face.
But win vs the Eagles in front of a big national audience and look good doing it, and he’ll be back.
It’s really all up to him now, and against the 31st ranked pass defense he has no excuses.
Again, not a Baker fan, but I am a lifelong Bucs fan, and I want to see the Bucs destroy the Eagles and make their garbage fans so mad they riot and burn down their garbage city. That can’t happen if Baker doesn’t play well – so I want him to have the game of his life.
January 10th, 2024 at 8:03 pm
do you Mayfield nut huggers even watch the games…. offense is awful mostly from bad play at quarterback ..numbers look better because of garbage time yards.. Baker is average with a rare glimer of hope START TRASK
January 10th, 2024 at 8:04 pm
I’d let him walk if he wants more than 20 a year. I’d give him a 2 year deal at 20 per year with incentives, and only 1 year guaranteed. With the weapons he has around him, he needs to be more productive, and more importantly, more consistent to warrant anything more than that. He did not play like a franchise QB on a consistent enough basis to earn a long term deal at 30 plus a year. I’d say he had 7 good games all year and 10 sub par to just bad games. So overall he was an average QB. Not a franchise QB with franchise QB contract.
If he’s going to make 30 plus a year im expecting 12-13 games a year of franchise QB level of play. I don’t care what about other teams paying out to Carr, Jones, Smith, etc. Those were mistakes and bad decisions. I’ll pass on repeating the mistakes other teams made.
He’s amazing value at 4 mil per year. That’s one of the best QB contracts in the NFL. He deserves a raise, but 30 plus a year, and suddenly he now has one of the worst QB contracts in the NFL based on value. If you are going to spend that type of money, than Kirk Cousins is the move if he hits FA.
Mike Evans, AW Jr, LVD and than Baker should be the priority resign list
January 10th, 2024 at 8:06 pm
Rod Munch says:
I am a lifelong Bucs fan, and I want to see the Bucs destroy the Eagles and make their garbage fans so mad they riot and burn down their garbage city.
___________________
^ Have Ronde Barber call the game in a Bucs jersey
January 10th, 2024 at 8:07 pm
Love the comments…
If the Bucs don’t re-sign him now, before he hits free agency, then they have no other choice but to compete on the market. Other NFL teams will see his 4,000 yds, 3/1 TD ratio and jump at that… besides, some of the losses the defense lost by giving up the booty.
Also, as others said, if you want a deal, go sign Jameis.
I am not sure ME will allow the Bucs to re-sign him, without a QB under contract. He will test FA as well.
At least Brady’s contract will be off the books… the Bucs should have space! Let the Glazers pay as much as they want.
January 10th, 2024 at 8:12 pm
Pete Carroll’s firing sort of shows what happens when you hitch your wagon and future to a 2nd – 3rd tier QB. Was there literally anyone that didn’t know Geno Smith wasn’t suddenly a franchise QB?
Speaking of which, Geno had a 62.1 QBR last year, and even this year, which is considered disappointing, had a 60.0 QBR. Baker had a 54.1 QBR. That’s a pretty big difference actually.
If it comes down to money, and I’m the Bucs, I’d much rather go get Geno – you get the better QB at a cheaper rate.
But, Baker can change that by winning under pressure.
January 10th, 2024 at 8:13 pm
Rod Munch Says:
January 10th, 2024 at 8:02 pm
adam from ny – What if the Bucs aren’t sold on Baker, and want to see how he performs in pressure situations before they’d give him a new deal.
So far, in the last two pressure games, with a home playoff game and possibly a new contract on the line, Baker has completely fallen on his face.
But win vs the Eagles in front of a big national audience and look good doing it, and he’ll be back.
It’s really all up to him now, and against the 31st ranked pass defense he has no excuses.
Again, not a Baker fan, but I am a lifelong Bucs fan, and I want to see the Bucs destroy the Eagles and make their garbage fans so mad they riot and burn down their garbage city. That can’t happen if Baker doesn’t play well – so I want him to have the game of his life.
—————————-
AMEN!
January 10th, 2024 at 8:16 pm
A three-year deal with options (for both parties) after each year seems fair.
January 10th, 2024 at 8:17 pm
He is a second tier QB. If he’s willing to accept that type of contract, great. If not, Trask. Can’t mortgage the present for a QB if it means losing WRs.
January 10th, 2024 at 8:17 pm
Why wouldn’t you ask that question?
January 10th, 2024 at 8:19 pm
I’d think the Glazers are concerned with fan support and Tickets sales, Bowles and Mayfield will not have fans rushing to re-up or buy season tickets. If the Bucs keep those two guys the stadium will be half empty, there will be a huge drop in season tickets sales.
January 10th, 2024 at 8:24 pm
Tony winds himself down on Baker Street
Light in his head and dead on his feet
Well, another crazy day
He drinks the night away
And forgets about Kyle Trask
30 Million is a lot ask
Sometimes Moxy isn’t worth the cash
And it’s taken him so long
To find out he was wrong
When you thought he held everything
(c) 2024 Trask Cult Ltd
January 10th, 2024 at 8:28 pm
You guys can probably get Tannehill on a one year, 8 mill deal. Time for me and bake to go we’re he’s appreciated !😊
January 10th, 2024 at 8:29 pm
rod – yeah i’m not 100% sold on baker either…anyone who’s watched the team closely this year has seen some good baker, bad baker, and even a bit of magnificent baker…
but the dude has grown on me…i root for him and would like to see it work out for him here – why not – we’re probably not going to ever see another tom brady type behind center in tampa ever again – it’s just how it is…
baker is somewhere between a game manager and a franchise qb…probably leaning a little bit more towards the game manager…
can you build around that and get to a superbowl?…probably, but you’ve gotta have a dam good squad of guys…
can bowles lead us to the superbowl ?…i’m more worried about that possibility, than baker working out here in tampa…i think at best he leads us as far as dungy could, but won’t get us over the hump…an offensive HC will have to level us up at that point…
but can baker and the bucs pull off a sneaky upset this monday night? – yeah…they just might blast these eagles if the offense can get rolling again…
if you can’t score any points then what are you doing in the playoffs…lol
the offense really better wake up on national tv – everyone is watching
January 10th, 2024 at 8:30 pm
@Let Em Bake
Good riddance man. We aren’t here to drag down the whole team in order to prop up an average QB at best. Have fun bouncing from team to team with your QB
January 10th, 2024 at 8:32 pm
since when is moxie worth a dime…
i don’t remember grandpa ever going to the 5 and dime and coming home with a bag full of moxie
🙂
January 10th, 2024 at 8:35 pm
This Buccaneer team will never go further the a middle of the road football team with Baker Mayfield under center, I would think Jason Licht understands this.
January 10th, 2024 at 8:38 pm
also why would we draft a qb in like the second round…?
didn’t we just draft a qb in the second round and he’s waiting in the wings to get his shot here?
if we draft another qb in the 2nd or 3rd round, isn’t that the death sentence for trask in tampa ?
it’s a wrap for him then…won’t they trade him during the draft or something…
or is he seriously becoming the next ryan griffin here
January 10th, 2024 at 8:41 pm
If Bowles is coming back, maybe we should get Jameis. In that case, it might be advantageous to have a QB that does the opposite of what his coach tells him.
January 10th, 2024 at 8:42 pm
RGA:
baker mayfield could have done what brad johnson did, as a good game manager for the 2002 bucs…
baker could have game managed the baltimore ravens team that won a superbowl with trent dilfer…
can he carry a kansas city team like mahommes?……..no…but in the right setting with the right players surrounding him, he’ll be just fine…
only thing that will never stop are those batted balls…short is short
January 10th, 2024 at 8:43 pm
Call him great or not he had a career year and he will get paid. Believe in him or not, the NFL is a business and these folks play football as their livelihood. He gambled on himself and accepted a below market rate with a perceived below talent team that just won the division. You say the NFC South sucks and they wouldn’t win any other division- the NFL calls it parity and they set the rules and going rates. Get over it and be happy the Bucs have a winning record yet again.
Don’t hate the player hate the game. GO BUCS!!
January 10th, 2024 at 8:44 pm
we still haven’t seen a batted ball get tipped up by a lineman, get intercepted and taken back for a pick 6…
it’s in the cards if baker stays…so everyone get ready for that faux pas
January 10th, 2024 at 8:48 pm
If the bucs offense flounders for the 3rd week in a row…..they should look at interviewing frank smith the Dolphins offensive coordinator or San Francisco offensive coordinator Foerster. They both have explosive and consistent offense. They would be able to mold a Rookie QB or get a veteran QB that fits their style. We wouldn’t have to endure these 50 yards or less first halves anymore. Dreams.
January 10th, 2024 at 8:52 pm
Looking forward, at $33 million a year, Baker’s cost per win just doesn’t make sense.
January 10th, 2024 at 8:53 pm
He won’t have as many suitors as everyone thinks. Max 2 teams with mild interest in him as a starter. The trash teams will draft a young QB with true upside.
January 10th, 2024 at 8:56 pm
Look Mayfield put this organization in tight spot. First, congrats Baker, that was a good year. You deserve good quarterback pay, not great, good. Bucs, if you were planning on drafting a quarterback this year, Baker just cost you a lot of draft picks down the order, and if you trade up at this point he cost a lot of future quality picks and capital. I still feel like, pick a quarterback and you let him watch Baker a couple of years and go. If you were not planning on that, well Mr. Licht you just got played and have nothing to show for it. Mr mayfield you need to be a franchise quarterback or you set this franchise back 10 years.
January 10th, 2024 at 8:58 pm
Baker is worth more than Burrows who missed the playoffs again. Look it up Baker owns Burrows head to head.Also he aint done yet this year.
January 10th, 2024 at 8:59 pm
rod – baker has the team really rallying behind him…
this moxie he has is rubbing off a bit…
big tristan is changing as a human being bro – he’s literally getting mad if you touch his quarterback…
he is pissed at the saints for all the hits on baker going back to the game in new orleans earlier this year…
he and the squad really back baker…there’s something to be said for that…
it’s interesting to watch wirfs these days – he’s getting really protective of baker…
you don’t mess with wirfs’ quarterback
January 10th, 2024 at 9:00 pm
@Rod Munch, you vherry pick the QBR stat which NFL teams don’t even look at because it’s a ridiculous stat. Passer rating, 3rd down efficiency, how QBs handle the blitz, TD/ INT ratio, etc. Are what is being looked at. And then you have intangibles like running for a hard yard to move the chains when necessary. NOT MANY QBS DO THAT. Baker does ALL OF THOSE THINGS. You can stick that QBR you know where becaus wit is a trash stat. By the way, waa Baker injured these last 2 games, hmm, MAYBE JUST MAYBE THAT AFFECTHIS PERFORMANCE! You knuckleheads with your carefully picked stats are not fooling anyone that has watched all the games and looked at the numbers.
January 10th, 2024 at 9:02 pm
You morons who don’t think that Baker Mayfield doesn’t have elite arm strength are giving morons a bad name. Check out the 2018 NFL Combine. Josh Allen threw 61 MPH on the radar gun, but guess who was second? That’s right, Baker at 60 MPH. The year before at the combine guess how hard Mahomes threw? HE THREW 60! So put your BS about Baker’s arm strength to bed already.
January 10th, 2024 at 9:07 pm
adam from ny Says:
January 10th, 2024 at 8:44 pm
we still haven’t seen a batted ball get tipped up by a lineman, get intercepted and taken back for a pick 6…
it’s in the cards if baker stays…so everyone get ready for that faux pas
————————————————
If that happens Monday night, we’re coming after you Adam! Lol
January 10th, 2024 at 9:10 pm
“Will Mayfield command a “great” contract for his level of play? A very confident man, Mayfield surely thinks he deserves one, as in the range of three years, $100 million, Joe believes.”
How does one go from a discussion with “the goal was not for me to have a great year” ( great being highly relative) to I want 33 million dollars a year
Answer one can’t. The year Baker thinks he had has absolute nothing to do with His agent. Joe should know better than this. AN agent is going to look at the numbers and suggest to his client what that can get him – not the other way around. I ‘ve seen ZERO evidence that Baker overrides his agents suggestions for a bigger payday
IF baker can get going on up to the mid 30s and 40 even – good for him. In a shocker to a few here who claim I am not a bucs fan
I wish him well but not with bucs.
Now as somone suggested mid 20s with incentives – I could go for that or maybe hgher on a shorter deal
tying up mid 30s for years on a team that doesnt even know if it wil ever open up the offense permanently? for what? IF Bowles stays on and sticks with what was reported today by the Joes then why should we spend 33 o r 35 mill for a game manager? Sure sounds like that s what Bowles wants
IF thats your goal then yeah go get a draft pick Qb and pay rookie money for a while. As a baker fan I am glad to see him accomplish his goals and I’ll follow him elsewhere while to the joy of everyone here – still root for the bucs
However I dont buy all this nonsense of determining what it is he is going to ask for. Baker has s history of betting on himself and I wouldn’t be surrpised he does it again. IF the incentivs are sufficient to justify based on production then you are paying for results not just a set salary like the one hampering the stinking saints.
January 10th, 2024 at 9:10 pm
omg if that happens monday night i will crawl under a rock !!
also no one talk about our kicker mclaughlin…he doesn’t even exist…say nothing
🙂
January 10th, 2024 at 9:13 pm
Joe … ‘A very confident man, Mayfield surely thinks he deserves one, as in the range of three years, $100 million, Joe believes.’
This is Baker’s best chance for a nice payday. If it was any of us, we’d take a $100 mil 3-year contract over a $75 mil 3-year contract any day.
Those numbers are most likely in the ballpark Joe. And someone will pay it. It won’t be the Bucs. Not because we don’t want to, but because we can’t afford to because of several higher priorities for our limited salary CAP $$$.
January 10th, 2024 at 9:22 pm
It is malpractice to let Baker go. The level he played at with Tampa as his team? He deserves whatever he asks for.
January 10th, 2024 at 9:27 pm
Buc You … ‘At least Brady’s contract will be off the books… the Bucs should have space!’
Have seen a lot of folks ASSUMING that when Brady’s $35 mil for 2023 disappears that we’ll have tons of CAP space. Wish that were the case, but it isn’t. Bucs had to restructure a number of big contracts at the start of 2023 to just get under the salary CAP. Those restructurings are what will bite us in the arse in 2024.
Not to mention that we’ve got guys like Jensen & Gage on our rolls who can’t contribute on the field (and most likely won’t in 2024) but will still cost us even if we release them. Plus we’ve got 6 guys to pay for ‘voided years’ who’ll be free agents. Contrary to what some say, the salary CAP is a real constraint. And that’s exactly what the NFL wants.
January 10th, 2024 at 9:39 pm
WyomingJoe….elite arm strength does no good if you miss the targets most of the time downfield.
Trask is much better than an injured Baker. Start Trask!
January 10th, 2024 at 9:41 pm
Trask Cult Leader Says:
January 10th, 2024 at 8:24 pm
Sometimes Moxy isn’t worth the cash
And it’s taken him so long
To find out he was wrong
When you thought he held everything
—-
TCL if you want the poetry crown you got to do better
Your last line doesnt even rhyme
January 10th, 2024 at 9:46 pm
Buc1987 Says:
Trask is much better than an injured Baker. Start Trask!
—
trask sucks. when your boss wont give you a raise for three years and turns to someone else in thr crunch – its usually for good reasons.
January 10th, 2024 at 9:53 pm
Baker wants to be a Buc. He’s said that many times. I think that he will accept a team-friendly 3-year contract in the area of 80M for 3-years with incentives if the Bucs want him as well. My gut is that they do.
Baker has proven that he is a Top-10 QB in terms of passing yards and a Top 4-6 QB in a number of other stats. His haters should give them the credit he deserves.
January 10th, 2024 at 9:55 pm
For Duh Baker it was a good year. Compared to many other NFL QBs, it was a good year.
The problem is that it might be the best he has to offer, and things go downhill from here.
It is my fear that Hot Toddie comes back and drags Baker with him. Then Baker does like he has done before and quit trying to get better.
That loses his teammates and the team really under performs, and the fans get to see more years of mediocrity.
January 10th, 2024 at 9:55 pm
@adam feom ny. Mahimes hasn’t had to “carry” his teammates either. The Chiefs were LOADED with talent when he waa drafted, and added more each year. They had great receivers, and the leagues best TE, The best Center in the game, and the best defensive player in the game, AND the most QB friendly coach in the league. Mahomes hasn’t had to carry a team.
The only QB I can 5hink of around the league right now that has is Aarin Rodgers, and before this year, on this same Bucs team, people were saying Brady was carrying this team with the same numbers and one less win than Baker Mayfield put up this year, and Baker was hurt the last 2 games. I get it that everyone’s a veteran QB that has been putting up huge numbers for a decade, but what Mayfield has done this year has been borderline great, and he is only 28 years old! He will do nothing but get better in another year in this system, with these players. Every NFL coach and QB says that continuity is key for success in the NFL
January 10th, 2024 at 10:00 pm
Baker had a good enough year to go somewhere else. This fan base may be one of the worst in the league…
January 10th, 2024 at 10:01 pm
adam from ny Says:
but the dude has grown on me…
———
Fair enough.
For me, that’s not the case, but he certainly he performed better than expected. He’s been OK as a QB, but I personally don’t see how there’s any upside to him, and based on his history, and the history of all QBs in general with his type of career, I think it’s more than fair to believe this is his peak. But, I could be certainly be wrong.
With that said, if he can play well and win that Eagles game, at the very least I’ll be resigned to the fact he’ll be back next year, and he absolutely would have earned that and the huge pot of money that comes with it.
January 10th, 2024 at 10:04 pm
Maybe my expectations levels are to higher but I don’t really think Baker was all that good this season. I mean he had games where he was good and then games where he looked pretty bad. Wasn’t really consistent to be honest. I don’t know how much of that was learning a new offense and some of Canales dumb play calls though.
January 10th, 2024 at 10:12 pm
WyomingJoe Says:
January 10th, 2024 at 9:02 pm
You morons who don’t think that Baker Mayfield doesn’t have elite arm strength are giving morons a bad name. Check out the 2018 NFL Combine. Josh Allen threw 61 MPH on the radar gun, but guess who was second? That’s right, Baker at 60 MPH.
—-
I know you’ll assume this is bashing Baker, but it’s not, I appreciate when people actually bring up valid talking points.
With that said, I heard coming into this year he had a big arm, but I don’t see it when watching the game. The ball doesn’t really boom out of his hand like you’d expect, and he’s certainly not anywhere close to the same level as Allen. That’s not a knock by the way, Allen has a different class of arm. Bakers arm is fine, there’s nothing wrong with it, but its interesting he’d test well, yet it doesn’t really show up. Maybe some of those past injuries have taken some of his zip away. And, again, don’t get angry, this isn’t bashing him – it’s just more of a curiosity. Having a big arm is not a requirement to be a good OK, and his arm is more than good enough to be successful.
Accuracy is a different issue, but I’m not coming that here.
But, speaking of combine, the other interesting thing is that he ran a 4.84 – that’s anything thing that absolutely doesn’t show up in pads. He’s got good escability, which is great, but when he scrambles he just doesn’t go anywhere. Again, it’s not a knock, I’m just interested in what happened. It’s no big deal, he doesn’t hurt the team not being fast, again, it’s just more of a curiosity.
The single biggest knock against Baker is that he went #1, and seeing him play, I don’t understand how that happened. He’s a small guy, doesn’t have a rocket arm, isn’t fast – how did he go #1? It was a controversial pick at the time, and it painted a huge target on him since there was no way he’d ever live up to that billing. That’s no fault of his, and really a credit to him that he got himself into that position when all the analytics would tell you to go with someone else.
January 10th, 2024 at 10:14 pm
Not sure how the Bucs will value BM. He has played well and if we can resign him and our other top priority FA then so be it. Then we can focus on improving other positions.
January 10th, 2024 at 10:15 pm
Mayfield did throw for a little over 4000 yards , better than he has done before , but do you know where that places him in the league in passing yardage? 18th! A little below the median, or a little below average , do you really want to give a below average quarterback a big money , multi-year contract that locks the team into mediocrity for years? I think We can do better.
January 10th, 2024 at 10:27 pm
Lmao we got Baker bois comparing Baker to Burrow and Mahomes and they got the audacity to say the critics of his play are in a cult. Y’all are really unbelievable
January 10th, 2024 at 10:27 pm
Here is what I don’t understand about you people. The competitive salary teams will pay for Mayfield is between 30-40 millio a year multi year. You guys seem to think that the Bucs will get someone who plays the same or better than Mayfield did this year for under 10 milion. You are dreaming.
You seem to be not impressed with Mayfield’s year which was remarkable considering the Bucs had no running attack, a lousy offensive line- Mayfield afforded sacks because of himself not the line & an inexperienced first year Coach. Add to that your 3rd receiver Palmer was terrible with fubles , endless penalties & drops.
January 10th, 2024 at 10:32 pm
I think Penix will be there at 20 or wherever we end up. If so, I think he has massive upside.
January 10th, 2024 at 10:35 pm
Chris Says:
January 10th, 2024 at 9:00 pm
@Rod Munch, you vherry pick the QBR stat which NFL teams don’t even look at because it’s a ridiculous stat. Passer rating, 3rd down efficiency, how QBs handle the blitz, TD/ INT ratio, etc. Are what is being looked at. And then you have intangibles like running for a hard yard to move the chains when necessary. NOT MANY QBS DO THAT. Baker does ALL OF THOSE THINGS.
———-
20th in points per game
2.6 yards per carry
As noted, 20th in points per game in a year when 2/3rds of teams lost their starting QB for at least a couple of games. Baker, meanwhile, was in the 1/3rd that started every game, and he was dead last in scoring among them, and more than 10 teams that had to play backups over multiple games also outscored the Baker and the Bucs.
QBR he’s 18th, so that is pretty much in line with what we saw in scoring. He was a lower half QB who couldn’t break into the top half in a very bad year for quarterbacks.
On top of that, the two most important games for him, vs the Saints and Panthers, were literally his two worst games of the year. So in pressure scenarios, he’s fallen flat on his face.
That’s not someone I’m giving a big deal to, or even bringing back.
However go out and look good while winning the Eagles game, and it doesn’t matter what I think, he’ll be back.
In fact, it doesn’t matter what I think in any case since I’m not the GM, so you’re getting mad at the wrong guy.
Now back to your cult.
January 10th, 2024 at 10:40 pm
Dom Says:
January 10th, 2024 at 10:27 pm
Lmao we got Baker bois comparing Baker to Burrow and Mahomes and they got the audacity to say the critics of his play are in a cult. Y’all are really unbelievable
———
Also Brady and Brees.
No joke, the one that one of the dullards keeps trying to get traction something dumb like Baker has the same yards and TD as Brady at this point in his career — even if you assume that is true, it’s not pointed out that Brady started out his career in a completely different era of football when you still played defense. Then another guy brought up how his stats are better than Brees’ stats — you know, when Brees literally couldn’t throw the ball more than 10-yards downfield at the end of his career.
It’s part of the reason why the Baker Bois are such a joke. I have zero issues with the non-insane people that like Baker – but the Baker Bois literally tried to say Baker had a great game vs the Panther. They’re literally insane people.
January 10th, 2024 at 10:53 pm
All the Baker haters just keep trolling. Bucs we’re projected last in their division; rebuilding; etc. Suddenly, who now has over 20,000 yards career passing & leads a doormat of a team to the playoffs? This man is an overachiever every where he goes and yet, “he’s still got to prove it by (fill in the blank). Baker haters, I have a message for you: the man is a quality starting QB in the NFL and a fine leader of men. He has clearly matured in so many ways. Suddenly, he & his wife are settling into the Florida sunshine, building a family together. Give this man what he deserves- an extended market competitive contract- like any other successful QB, and watch him bloom into the prime years of his career. He will continue to surprise to the upside. Watch.
January 10th, 2024 at 11:07 pm
For all you guys out there that don’t think Baker is worth the big money tell me how much guarter back for new Orleans saints how much is he getting a year and what has he done to deserve it could name a few others like the 230 million dollar man that is sitting on a bench in Cleveland
January 10th, 2024 at 11:16 pm
No matter how far this team goes this year I think Mayfield should change his address to Las Vegas. They have the money with better cap space, they have a great defense, they have great offensive weapons, they have probably the best facilities in the NFL per Belichick. They have a a very loyal fan base, not like the Bucs fans on this site. NV does not have state tax and Vegas is a high profile city with lots of money for endorsements .
He would be far better off going there and let this franchise dwell in the cellar for the next decade
January 10th, 2024 at 11:23 pm
They’ll put Baker up against ANY legend*
* (Includes only the final season of the said legends career)*
January 10th, 2024 at 11:29 pm
wha
January 10th, 2024 at 11:33 pm
what if:
we win the eagles game…
the nfl names baker comeback player of the year…
and the nfl and bucs brass have plans for him and his revival…
the glazers give him his 3 years 100 mil…
and he starts doing new commercials from ray jay and lives in the boiler room under the stadium – or something like that…
is there room for a full baker revival…?
the cleveland stadium commercial were kinda good a few years back…
maybe the storyline continues in tampa…
#EveryonesEntitledToAyeRevival
January 10th, 2024 at 11:37 pm
or we can always pick up jameis for like 4 mil next year…
no one is going to want that crazy dude after the stunt he pulled at the goal line vs atlanta when it was 41-17…
#JameisFakingMovesAndJustifyingIt
#JameisBeColdStunting
who is going to sign jameis…???
January 11th, 2024 at 12:00 am
@Kenneth Christensen
That’s the whole point of what the critics of Mayfield are getting at here. The Browns and the Saints are in an awful position because they gave franchise QB money to average to below average QB’s. Guys that didn’t deserve those deals and yet you want us to make the same mistake here. That’s what we are trying to avoid. He deserves 20-25M per year on a short term deal with incentives until he proves he can be consistent and improve as a deep ball thrower. Only Zach Wilson was worse on throws 20+ yards down the field this season.
January 11th, 2024 at 12:01 am
Buddy looked at a dumpster fire and said why don’t we do that lol
January 11th, 2024 at 12:13 am
Gotta ask…who you gonna get that is better?
We are drafting to high to get a top QB.
Licht picked Trask in the 2nd round.
How’d that work out? You trust Licht to pick a QB?
LOL. You cannot win without a QB in today’s league.
You can win without a Mike Evans. Wirfs? No.
Baker should be the number 1 priority.
Take the emotion out of the Evans decision.
A WR is useless if he doesn’t have someone that can get him the ball.
BAKER>>>>>>evans
January 11th, 2024 at 12:35 am
Evans should be in the wills of:
* Johnny Football
* Mike Glennon
* Jameis Winston
* Tom Brady The GOAT
* and now Baker Mayfield
The first three only had an NFL career at all because of their association w future HoF’er Mike Evans
Evans could give Ryan Leaf new life as a QB
January 11th, 2024 at 12:37 am
Dan Marino could come out of retirement and put together a decent season throwing to Evans
January 11th, 2024 at 12:38 am
I could start at Bucs QB.
I’d be knocked out of the game on the 1st play , but I guarantee: IF I have 2 seconds to throw to Mike Evans my all time completion percentage will be 100%
January 11th, 2024 at 12:42 am
Why do you think Brady even came here?
January 11th, 2024 at 1:06 am
Not even reading this sht, Saw SteveK spouting off again and then Rod, who I thought were one in the same, spewing sht. Both of u FO
If Bucs don’t pull trigger someone else will.
January 11th, 2024 at 1:30 am
If Bucs beat Eagles, then Bowles returns next season. Devin White is out, Winfield and Evans get big new contracts, and Baker gets either a sweet 2 year contract or a franchise tag. If Eagles beat Bucs, Winfield and Evans stay, but Bowles, White, and Baker are out.
January 11th, 2024 at 1:49 am
Irishmist
If Bowles is coming back, maybe we should get Jameis. In that case, it might be advantageous to have a QB that does the opposite of what his coach tells him.
…………………
I like your thinking
January 11th, 2024 at 2:33 am
100 mill ski for 3 years guaranteed sounds good to me for mayfield. Of coarse they can extend and pretend with much larger numbers but not guaranteed like happens in todays nfl everyday. Baker is what I consider a ‘poor mans Tom Brady’.
Kinda like a ladyfish is a poor mans tarpon.
January 11th, 2024 at 2:39 am
Then of coarse, there’s always Russel Wilson, and ole ‘crableggs’ in the hopper.
January 11th, 2024 at 5:46 am
He isn’t worth more than 8mil with incentives. If the bucs want to come off the dead cap year of survival, then have to be cautious. Winfield is more important to sign then baker. ME is more important than Baker. Etc, he wasn’t earned a Big contract. No way. Anything over 8mil a year would be a huge mistake if you plan on being competitive next year. Plus if we get a new HC he may not want Baker….let’s see how it plays out
January 11th, 2024 at 5:49 am
Daniel Jones averages $40m, Derek Carr $37.5m. What Joe listed isn’t 3 year $100m is about average for decent QB play. Big money is the $50m plus club
January 11th, 2024 at 6:40 am
It was nice finally getting to read comments from mostly Buc fans in the beginning and no so much the fanbois(maybe Joe was modding them for a while! 🤣) but of course like roaches come out when the lights go out they made their way and of course came out with their “superior ” support for their heart throb. Get this Fakerbois, he had a decent year those stats are smoke and mirrors and a middling qb earns only middling pay. He is no better than Andy Dalton so only deserves $25 million including incentives per year but in order for you clowns to leave town I’d be willing to let him walk.
January 11th, 2024 at 7:11 am
Wait he didn’t stand there and demand that they “check your sheet”???
January 11th, 2024 at 7:27 am
@optimisticbucsfan
Are you really telling us an average QB is better and more important than a future HOF WR and the best offensive player in Bucs history???? GTFO, you’re in a cult
January 11th, 2024 at 8:59 am
Let Baker go bake another team and sign Drew Lock to a 2 year 12 mil contract. He is better than Baker and younger.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:13 am
Bake did great when you factor in the lack of run game, the cute playcalls that should have been losses but Houdinis for a gain or no loss on play. Mike Evans who tried to sabotage team with the lack of effort. All the dropped balls across the board when they hit the receivers hands. Don’t forget all the dirty hits and injuries throughout season and the man refused to stop playing. He more than showed he wanted to win more than any other coach or players in the organization.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:25 am
Penix sucks..even the experts are saying the Bucs should not draft him..he’s a turnover machine.
Bucs don’t need someone WORSE then Mayfield.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:44 am
Name one team that needs a QB (besides the Bucs) that would sign Baker as a starter instead of drafting of the 8 in the draft?
Baker can take the Bucs offer or go sit on a bench for $6-$8M a year.
4 years $100M plus incentives
January 11th, 2024 at 11:23 am
When discussing the future of Baker Mayfield with the Bucs I think it is important to look at the alternative options.
Who would you rather have?
– K. Cousins
– R. Wilson
– J. Garapolo
– G. Minshew
– J. Dobbs
– R. Tannehill
– J. Browning
– J. Winston
– J. Flacco
– S. Darnold
– D. Lock
We are picking #20 or later in the draft so:
– Penix (maybe)
– JJ McCarthy
– Bo Nix
If not Baker Mayfield – who on this list would you rather have?
January 11th, 2024 at 11:34 am
All this conversation about incentives and another prove it deals won’t fly. He already proved himself. Here and in Cleveland. Last I looked, he took a 1-31 team to 7 wins the next season while breaking the rookie TD record. And then took the bottom dwellers to their first playoff victory in nearly 30 years on his 3rd head coach in his 3rd year. For $7M the Bucs got a veteran $20M – $30M performance this year since he’s top 12 in all categories on a crappy run team. I don’t count QBs that play in less than 10 games. They were pretty awful running last year and slightly better this year. I consider his numbers exceptional considering the no-run key defensives he had to play against every week. Don’t expect him to be open to another prove it contract. Rookies getting paid squat for outstanding performance is not the same as Veterans getting paid for outstanding performances. I hope he moves on from the Bucs. The team is in a cap-mess paying off the well-invested Brady incurred cap debt. If they can’t fork up $75M guarantee on a $100M 4-year deal, they aren’t looking to win SBs. They are in rebuild praying for a Stroud. There won’t be much talent on this team in two years. Baker is better off going to Minnesota, Atlanta, Seattle, Rams or Oakland based on projected surrounding talent in 2-3 years. I can only imagine how well his win rate and stats would be on a well coached team with young talent. Minnesota runs a very similar offense. If they don’t want to spend $45M for one more year of Cousins, plug in Mayfield. NFC North seems very winnable with Minnesota’s talent and no more Rodgers.
January 11th, 2024 at 11:41 am
The market will determine Bakes value. I don,t want anyone on that list. Bring back bakes. Draft a sleeper in rounds 3-7 or get a spring football guy. Dump Trask. Divides the fan base.
January 11th, 2024 at 12:06 pm
SlyPirate….Name one team that needs a QB (besides the Bucs) that would sign Baker as a starter instead of drafting of the 8 in the draft?
Raiders & Broncos
January 11th, 2024 at 12:23 pm
Just wondering….how many starting QBs in 2023 that are not on rookie contract or started the year as a back up have contracts $20 mil or less? Don’t worry, I’ll wait. Seems to me the going rate for a mid-tier QB is mid 30s….not saying Baker is mid-tier. Get a grip TB fans….ever heard of you get what you pay for? Be careful what you wish for…you just might run off a real opportunity to develop this thing into a real contender in year 2 or 3. Baker deserves a fair deal or he will be gone. I like him on this team, but I go as Baker goes. Guess we’ll see.
January 11th, 2024 at 12:43 pm
BakerFan,
How are the Raider and Broncos going to afford that? They are both already overpaying QBs to go away.
Rinse, lather, repeat.
January 11th, 2024 at 12:51 pm
If other teams want to pay big Bucs and give a long term contract to Mayfield let them have at it , we still have two better quarterbacks in Kyle and John, what they didn’t have was a well placed “pal” in high places , BM and TB should both be let go , they are both mediocre at best in their positions and We will not get better as long as they are there , but ,if management wants to waste the time it is their money and no one is making us watch the games.
January 11th, 2024 at 12:55 pm
Bake had a great year. He did what Jameis could not. You would be hard pressed to find a kid in the draft to do more. The quarterback class of 2024 is weak. Pay the man
January 11th, 2024 at 1:52 pm
SteveK Says:
January 11th, 2024 at 12:43 pm
BakerFan,
How are the Raider and Broncos going to afford that? They are both already overpaying QBs to go away.
Raiders have the money and cap space, do your research.
Broncos don’t but Brees would like Baker Mayfield
You asked for anyone and I gave you 2 and there would be more depending who takes head caoches jobs.
January 11th, 2024 at 2:06 pm
Mike Johnson
Bucs are always trying to get cheap players. Haaaaaah, You’re joking right? If so why are we eating 75,000,000 this year?
January 11th, 2024 at 3:35 pm
Baker fan,
Thanks for the reply. I respectfully disagree with your assessment.
How much dead cap space does Russel Wilson and Jimmy G have with those two clubs? I don’t see how they will be able to fork over for a big contract. Maybe they do. I don’t see it though.
January 11th, 2024 at 3:37 pm
Did a quick google.
Jimmy G, if cut would be on the hook to receive $23+ million from the Raiders in 2024.
Russel Wilson is due $35 million next year from the Broncos.
How would those two teams be able to afford paying baker too?
January 11th, 2024 at 3:37 pm
Any QB who wins his division is a great QB.
Since the Bucs inception in the Seventies, only 6 have managed it.
If you take a bad team to the playoffs, you are a great QB, and had a great year.
Those are the facts. Those are what the GMs in the NFL know- and will pay big money for!
What a bunch of McDonalds and Krystal employees post or think on Joebuc is irrelevant.
January 11th, 2024 at 5:44 pm
Capt Tim
So let me get this straight, according to you “Any QB who wins his division is a great QB.”
Taylor Heineke is a great quarterback according to you then. Crazy, right?
A truly not great quarterback in Taylor Heineke was the quarterback who led the Washington Football Team to a NFC East Division Championship in 2020, and that is why a truly great quarterback in TB12 and the Bucs played an away playoff game during the Wild Card round at Washington because the Saints led by a truly great quarterback won the NFC South.
Please tell this Checker’s burgers and fries lover (McDonald’s and Krstal can’t compare) that you’re not classifying Taylor Heineke as a great quarterback just because he won the NFC East Division Championship in 2020 with the Washington Football Team.
January 11th, 2024 at 6:58 pm
-Capt Tim
First, what’s wrong with working in fast food?
I love Checker’s or Wendy’s or BK if I’m getting fast food burgers (Not a McDonald’s fan and never been to a Krystal) and I am thankful to the hardworking folks there who make such delicious burgers and fries for me to enjoy.
Did you really just say “Any QB who wins his division is a great QB.”?
You know that Taylor Heineke is not a great quarterback, right? You know that Taylor Heineke is really not that good of a quarterback, right?
In 2020 Taylor Heieke led the Washington Football Team to a NFC East Division Championship, and even having done all of that, Taylor Heineke is still not a good quarterback.
January 11th, 2024 at 7:19 pm
SteveK Says:
January 11th, 2024 at 3:35 pm
Baker fan,
Thanks for the reply. I respectfully disagree with your assessment.
How much dead cap space does Russel Wilson and Jimmy G have with those two clubs? I don’t see how they will be able to fork over for a big contract. Maybe they do. I don’t see it though.
………………………………………………………………………………………..
Here you go SteveK… this is how it stands right now which I guess will change as they make moves. This is the same situation that Browns had trying to move Baker. Will probably try to work out trades and not swallow the whole amount on an outright release.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:46 pm
This place is hilarious. Not going to argue every minor stat…….but Bake has one of the strongest arms in the league. This is not really debatable.
January 11th, 2024 at 10:02 pm
I would give him someone close to what Jimmy g and geno Smith got.
Something like 3y 72m-80m with 33m in Guarantees with a possibility of 40+mil with incentives.
He damn near played for free this year. Give him something that’s respectable and if he plays great the first 2years of that contract then we can then shoot him a 100m + deal.
January 12th, 2024 at 2:55 pm
So many Debbie downers on here. Makes me think of Randy Quaid character in the movie Major League. Baker gonna get that big contract ans he deserves it. Shake n bake! Boomer!
January 12th, 2024 at 9:38 pm
Having spent a season watching the comments on JoeBucs site. As I said a few days ago, very few football smart people post here. Sad too, as they think they are……..