The Divide At Headquarters

October 17th, 2019

Regular readers here likely have realized there’s a divide at world headquarters when it comes to the quarterback position.

One Joe thinks Jameis Winston, America’s Quarterback, is getting unfair criticism as the QB whose team leads the NFC in scoring.

The other Joe thinks that stat should make any fan take pause but finds it conjures up the old saying: “Don’t piss in my face and tell me it’s raining.”

The reality is that Jameis is a highly inconsistent, turnover-prone quarterback with a penchant for losing; it’s been that way through his career. And that’s exactly what you don’t want in a quarterback.

Cut the turnovers and play smarter. That’s been the goal with Jameis since the clunker he dropped in his NFL debut against a bad team.

He hasn’t figured it out into his fifth season.

Throw out Jameis’ terribly ugly game last Sunday and toss out his special gem against the Rams. Put them in the dumpster. Those were anomalies and polar opposites. What do you have left? An inconsistent quarterback who was poor on opening day, played two good games and was jittery and meh in New Orleans.

The Bucs have exactly what they had in January, a very talented and overall very average starting QB, who is now struggling under what is widely considered elite coaching.

As for Jameis’ intangibles, the valuable leadership Jason Licht crowed about for years and that Bucco Bruce Arians thought was so special? There’s no evidence it exits.

Joe believes Jameis is an intelligent guy. It’s why Joe thinks it’s reasonable to think Jameis likely has reached his NFL ceiling. When you’re smart and put in the long hours, and this is the result, there’s little reason to think you’ll get much better — at least not in the same environment.

That goes for any player.

Sure, give Jameis the rest of 2019 to right his personal ship and mature. See if he can develop consistency and earn a franchise tag for 2020. But if Bucs officials aren’t turning over every rock now to find their next quarterback, then they’d be total morons. And that’s as obvious as all the points and turnovers on the scoreboard.

About half of all first-round draft picks disappoint their teams. That’s the NFL. There should be no fear of searching for or developing a replacement.

121 Responses to “The Divide At Headquarters”

  1. SteveK Says:

    Great piece Joe.

    I share these sentiments. Well put. Can’t wait for the Winston Defense Force (extra chapped bc FSU sucks out loud) to come out swinging. “Can’t wait”
    For the ensuing debate.

  2. Asdf Says:

    Thank god for rational Joe

  3. SteveK Says:

    I love the logic in this piece, and the emphasis on the single line “the same goes for any player”.

    Exactly the truth!

  4. Buddhaboy Says:

    They’ve given him every shot to succeed. Imagine if things worked like that out here in the real world. I would have been fired 17 times over by now with the same performance metrics Jameis puts up. Give me back my son?

  5. T REX Says:




  6. Bobby M. Says:

    He is who he is…..said that since day one. I continue to believe Licht didn’t build the team in a manner that best positioned him for success in the NFL. Licht firmly believed he had the next Tom Brady/Brett Favre, loaded up the weapons and ignoring the realities. Winston’s release is slow, he holds the ball too long, locks in on receivers, ball placement is inconsistent….the list goes on and on. The best chance for a QB with his issues is a stout o-line….buy him a tad more time, give him a running game and you might find Winston can be an effective game manager. Its year five and we’re still trying to make a make shift offensive line work with no running game threat. And dont get me started on the defense.

    I believe someone will give Winston a shot….he might become Gruden’s next Rich Gannon but at some point we have to recognize its simply not happening here. Its no different then the Steelers and AB. He was a problem that was never going to improve….His next place, maybe he completely behaves and continues his stellar career but in Pittsburgh, it wasn’t happening. Teams have to recognize their reality, not the potential of another teams. It wont shock me to see Winston have some marginal success elsewhere….Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl with the Ravens, does that mean the Bucs were wrong in letting him go? No….he wasn’t the guy. That’s how it goes.

  7. Jim Says:

    Sensible Joe,…where ya been?

  8. 813bucboi Says:

    3rd HC….

    5th year…

    18 games throwing multiple INTS….

    JW is a bust….time to move on….

    GO BUCS!!!!!

  9. 813bucboi Says:


    well said…

    GO BUCS!!!!!

  10. Coburn Says:

    2 good games without Rams? Are we still counting the panthers game as good? If I recall we moved it at times but nevwr seemed to punch it in.. hence it came down to the wire despite such a good defensive day. Giants was a good game but even that was mostly all one half and then a mixture of inconsistent play with turtle play calls.

    Yeah I ain’t buying that he’s the answer. A lot of those points came in a couple games. Om top of that we had 3 or r tds that were basically when wed already lost the game and it was too little too late.. just look at the saints and 2nd panthers games. Scores ended uo being closer than reality of the beat down.. when your d gives up so many points they care less about keeping you off the board and more about making sure it takes a while to do that

  11. Rayjay1122 Says:

    Sad that the QB that gives us the best chance to win is holding the clipboard.

  12. yar Says:

    It sure seems like Winston is un-coachable. I don’t think he listens to the coaching and does what he wants to so the best coaches in the world won’t do any good with him.

  13. Troy Says:

    He is what he is; a younger Fitzpatrick.

  14. mike Says:

    He will have a great game here and ther , but besides that… at his best he is another Andy dalton and at his worst, well you know what that is

  15. thisisouryear!! Says:

    I agree this is a great piece. Other Joe has been making me feel nauseated lately. I understand the touchdowns and the yardage, but how can you ignore the turnovers. The defense deserves a ton of blame, but how many of those points are points off of turnovers.

    This being said, I want everyone to do well, but I don’t think Jameis is going to get better. Go Bucs!!!

  16. mike Says:

    Joe wants to tag him and have him back in 2020… wow.
    Haven’t seen anything that makes me believe year 6 would be good

  17. D-Rome Says:

    What do you have left? An inconsistent quarterback who was poor on opening day, played two good games and was jittery and meh in New Orleans.

    I’ve been saying it for a long time that if you take away the interceptions and fumbles what do you have left? A guy that still overthrows receivers, has a poor deep ball, has poor pocket awareness, has jittery feet, and does not throw crisp passes. In order to win a Super Bowl a QB has to play at least 3, sometimes 4 good games in a row in the playoffs. He has never shown he can put together four strong games in a row where he leads his team to wins.

    When it comes to Jameis there is “Unreasonable Joe” and then there’s “Reasonable Joe.” I love both Joes, but Unreasonable Joe is going to have to face the fact that this team cannot win with Jameis.

    Simple as that.

  18. Bradinator Says:

    The main point is that he is no different from the rookie we drafted. No progression. Even when has a good game, like the Ram’s game, you still say to yourself “We’ll see what happens next week” before you can get excited. I reckon they don’t think that in NE, NO, GB, etc. I’m tired of Jameis popping my party balloon. My soul cannot take it any longer. He’s like an emotionally abusive girlfriend you can’t bring yourself to leave because she looks good. We need to break the cycle of abuse!!

  19. Runstuffer Says:

    No question that the Bucs have to move on from Jameis. The problem I have is that we are moving on with the same moron who built this team calling the shots. We are into Licht’s sixth year and the roster is talent poor to say the least. Weak at QB, weak on the o-line, no pass rush depth, and a terrible secondary. Licht is on his 3rd coaching staff and we are currently in a rebuild because he mismanaged the salary cap. By the way we are rebuilding his roster. It’s easy to blame Jameis but why aren’t the article in the paper every day asking why this team is still employing Jason Licht? What has Licht done to warrant an extension? Who thinks giving him another chance to build this roster will work this time around? His winning record as an executive is 33% and we have had the worst defense in football the last two years. Jameis is a nice scapegoat for all the dysfunction on this team but Licht is still going to be here when Jameis is gone and then who will Joe blame. Jameis is who he is, but Licht is the more insidious problem with this organization that Jameis will ever be.

  20. Pete I Says:

    There seems to be a very loose interpretation of playing “good” when it comes to Winston.

    Winston is 23-37 as a starter in this league. Mariota has a better record as a starter and his team has seen enough.

    Winston may become Jim Plunkett one day but not in Tampa.

  21. Pete I Says:


    “but Licht is the more insidious problem with this organization that Jameis will ever be.”

    The Glazer kids are far more insidious than Licht. The fish rots at the top.

    They should just work with the NFL to move the team permanently to London. It’s likely what they want, gets them closer to their kick ball team.

  22. Jeffbuc Says:

    For all you Jameis supporters do me this favor. Google Jameis FSU highlights. And tell me that is not the same exact quarterback in year 5 of the nfl. The crazy feet in the pocket the high balls the throwing into double triple coverage. Go watch that and tell me honestly if he has got any better since then or does he look exactly the same.

  23. Loyaltotheend Section 312 Says:

    This is one of the drawbacks of hiding who writes what under the “Joe” pen name.

    Why hide? Put your name on your opinions no matter how good/dumb they are

  24. Pete I Says:

    Bradinator Says:
    October 17th, 2019 at 9:36 am
    He’s like an emotionally abusive girlfriend you can’t bring yourself to leave because she looks good. We need to break the cycle of abuse!!

    the one Joe, NDOG, DB55 all suffer from Battered Winston Syndrome. But in a way we all get abused by Winston every 3rd game or so.

    Divorce is sometimes the answer.

  25. AlteredEgo Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation. Says:

    One Joe thinks Jameis Winston, America’s Quarterback, is getting unfair criticism as the QB whose offense leads the NFC in scoring.
    SMF’n head…5 years of CRAP

  26. AlteredEgo Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation. Says:

    One Joe can’t handle the truth !
    Polls show….begging for a Jameis poll

  27. Dewey Selmon Says:

    Take away the 2 defensive TD’s and the Bucs aren’t leading the NFC in points.

  28. Morgus the Magnificent Says:

    I agree with “Other Joe”. And again, he spoke the ABSOLUTE TRUTH when he stated that he’s not sure there is ANY other NFL franchise that would make America’s Grop…..errr, Quarterback their starter.

  29. Erick Says:

    It is the same mistakes and same concerns with Winston that we have had since day 1. I was glad that he was drafted, because you can see how talented this guy can be any given Sunday, but no improvement has been shown in the areas he has struggled with since FSU days.

    Unfortunately, for us Bucs fans, he and the team will probably win next two games to get us excited again and think just maybe he has turned corner, only to crap the bed at the Den of Depression and start the cycle again.

  30. Marine Buc Says:

    Joe your giving Winston too much credit for statistics (yards/tds) that are gained during “garbage time”… When your down by 20 points the opponent’s defense plays softer or prevent. Winston shines during “garbage time”.

  31. Pewter power Says:

    Winston is too inconsistent, if he was say a third round pick like sorry arse glennon he would be gone already, no way you’d give a late round pick that kind of money. Yes I think we should draft a guy next year but no faith licht will be any better picking a quarterback than he is picking corners

  32. passthebuc Says:

    How much does JW donate to your site?????????

  33. Posey99 Says:

    I’m not a fan of Jameis but you do have to expect more turnovers when you want to throw bombs and lead the NFC in yards. If Arians is upset with Jameis’ turnovers then maybe you should call a more balanced offense. Instead of trying to sling-it all the time.

  34. MidwestBucsFan Says:

    “The other Joe thinks that stat should make any fan take pause but finds it conjures up the old saying: “Don’t piss in my face and tell me it’s raining.””

    We universally paraphrase this Joe as the beloved, heroic, Logical Joe™

  35. AlteredEgo Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation. Says:

    One Joe has a problem admitting to being wrong…probably is not married either for that reason alone….my eyes don’t deceive me…I can still see Jamyth in college doing his patented reversing scramble only to fumble and fall on his azz

  36. Pryda...Sec147 Says:

    Better get over it quick joes Jameis is gettin an extension ! Same goes to all the so called fans.

  37. Kevin Says:

    Winston is just the second coming of Fitzmagic/Fitztragic. You’ll get some good/great games and some insanely terrible games without clear rhyme or reason. No team can build on that.

  38. Bucnjim Says:

    Three of the last four games have been against backup QB’s and we’ve lost all three of those games.

  39. NPRSageBoy Says:

    Finally, sanity from JoeBucsFan.

    Still need to poll the fan base on their confidence in JayMiss.

  40. July Joe Says:

    WINS are all about the TEAM not the QB position. How in the world do people still not understand this?

    EVERY SINGLE year there are playoff teams that have BAD QBs and non-playoff teams with far better QBs.

    This year JOSH ALLEN who is a train wreck as a QB, is 4-1 while Philip Rivers and Jameis are both 2-4. Why? DUH. Allen is on a good TEAM.

    As for Jameis, he’s a top 5 “talent” that has finished each of the last 3 years ELITE in the “advanced metrics” and will still be just 25 years old when this regular season ends … but yeah, dump him and draft the next Josh Rosen or Dwyane Haskins or Baker Mayfield and have Evans and Godwin so DISGUSTED with a QB that can’t get them the ball that they demand a trade!


    Jameis Winston was 26-1 in college (on a team where his best 3 recievers all turned out to be major busts in the NFL when they didn’t have JW slingin them the ball), the greatest win % of any QB that played that many games in college history … and was then drafted by the WORST team/franchise in the entire NFL … but yeah, he’s the one that doesn’t know how to “win”.


  41. bucs4ya Says:

    It’s hard to admit that it’s time to move on from Jameis especially given the fact the kid has never had a reliable run game or Oline not to mention the worst defensive in the league. I’d be totally on board with getting rid of him if this was the case but it’s simply not. Yes Mariota has a better record he also has a defense and a run game to lean on when he struggles. If we had what they have and were getting the same results then I’d understand. I’m not a Winston apologist but he doesn’t have the tools around him to be successful. Great WRs and TEs and nothing else. A rookie play caller this year and in years past a play caller that couldn’t call a run game which didn’t matter because we didn’t block well enough to establish a run game. But we’re the Bucs and we’ll get rid of him fix nothing else and expect a rookie QB or cast off to perform better. SMH same ole Bucs.. Stop doing the same things and expecting good results.

  42. Petty Officer Buc Says:

    Matt Leinart, Vince Young, Sam Bradford.

    All supposed to be blue chip QBs that didn’t work out. I won’t even touch JaMarcus Russell and Ryan Leaf.

    I’m sure it was hard for these franchises and their fans to turn the page on great college players, but 9 times out of 10 these QB busts can’t play for other teams either. Stop acting like this is unprecedented. It sucks that the Bucs are the latest (as are the Titans) but it’s time to move on.

  43. July Joe Says:


    Dude, do yourself a favor and just look up what Leinart, Young, Bradford, JaMarcus and Leaf did in their first 5 years and then compare it to Jameis … Jameis blows them all out of the water … the comps through 5 years with Jameis are Peyton Manning, Rivers, Favre, etc.


  44. July Joe Says:

    Someone, anyone, please tell me another QB in the history of the NFL that was called a “bust” at the time he was #2 ALL-TIME in both career passing yards & passing TDs at his age, a former pro Bowler and the ALL-TIME leader in yards and TDs for his NFL team … I’LL WAIT … because NO OTHER QB IN NFL HISTORY has been called such … EVER!


  45. AlteredEgo Say: Your comment is awaiting moderation. Says:

    Brilliant strategy @JBF… this way they’ll always be correct on Jamyth

  46. Joe Says:

    Brilliant strategy

    There’s no “strategy.” Genuine beliefs. We don’t concoct nonsense we don’t believe in.

  47. SteveK Says:

    July Joe,

    Riddle me this, name a QB that turns the ball over like Winston? Since 2015 Winston has 5 games of 4 + turnovers, and no other QB has two.

    He has a 4.5% INT% this year.

    Too many highs and lows.

    Jameis is inconsistent and that doesn’t win in the NFL.

    #1 overall picks should get better results.

    This is like having a pitcher that averages 10+K per 9 IP, and a 12.00ERA. You can’t win consistently wit my too many mistakes.

  48. SteveK Says:

    July Joe,

    Is this your first Joe Bucs Fan handle? You remind me of an old poster “NFL Nut”?

  49. SteveK Says:

    July Joe,

    I looked at the record books and I see Blake Bortles name below Winston’s for turnovers.

    What say you about app the turnovers? Is there accountability on Jameis, or do we coddle, blame others, and forgive blindly with no expectation for improvement?

  50. Greg Says:

    Salute to Joe for finally using logic. What concerns me is Jason lights obsession to re-sign him or waste another year and valuable cap space by franchise tagging him. The bottom line is if he has not done it by now he will not do it at least not consistently. I have no interest in somebody that can spend five years being inconsistent and then putting it together for the last three games of a losing season and get a new deal. Time to move on.

  51. gotbbucs Says:

    Franchising him would only prolong the madness, and a franchise tag/trade won’t happen because what team would trade two 1st’s and a max contract for Winston?
    A max QB contract should be off the table. Nobody in their right mind should want to hitch their wagon to this madness.
    I am done looking toward a future that involves Winston. That future is very bleak. He’s a combination of Josh Freeman and Drent Dilfer, that just doesn’t cut it and it sure as hell isnt worth $30 million a year.

    My biggest fear is that Arians ego steps in the way of reason and convinces him that Winston can be rehabilitated.
    Jameis Winston has Washington Redskin or Oakland Raider written all over him. Let him walk. Spend that $30 million on good players and let a rookie QB contract take the helm.

  52. chuckabuc99 Says:

    I’m hoping we franchise Jameis for 2020, and hope we can draft Jalen Hurts in the 2nd round of the draft. Arians could turn that kid into something special. We need a better O line in front of him though.

  53. Reach87 Says:

    Babies looking for a binkie like this is madden. Team game with real people and a score of (score) variables most of you don’t even know exist. We’ll win this year with #3. Rats are self-identifying already. Good. Go Bucs!

  54. mark2001 Says:

    Joe…in Peoria we say “don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining”. That must be a Charleston expression.

  55. Bob in Valrico Says:

    Cheer up Joe,
    There is still hope,but it is kinda funny for That appears to some that Joe has multiple personalities.
    Even funnier is 813 Bucboi and Buc realist seem to have reached the same conclusion on jameis. Still to be decided if there will be broccoli in the mutton stew.


  56. Bucsfanman Says:

    I think the decision will be made easy when that time comes. For OUR sake, the fans, I hope he can turn it around and get us some wins. However, if he cannot, and if it’s “bad Jameis” for the remainder of the season, this phrase should stick in the minds of ALL fans:

    “There should be no fear of searching for or developing a replacement.”

    This phrase is a s true for WRs, DEs, OL, as it is the QB. Every player can be replaced.

  57. mark2001 Says:

    Joe…being a smart guy and being able to read and react faster than a D pass rusher or D back, aren’t the same thing. I think Jameis is smart enough, but don’t think he reads and reacts fast enough. And no amount of “knowing the game, the coverage’s, and such will compensate for that when a guy isn’t open and the play breaks down.

  58. Bob in Valrico Says:

    funny for some that it appears that Joe

  59. Bucamania Says:

    Nope. We’ve seen enough. Jameis is who we thought he is. Time to cut bait.

  60. Robert Says:

    every backup qb we have faced has outplayed him. case closed

  61. james west Says:

    totally agree 100% i do not think we can win with winston, and history has shown us so, man why can’t this team find a starting caliber QB that plays well enough for a second contract extension, or even a third year gotta wrap him up and pay the man deal, i like burrows in this coming draft, who’s ya’lls choice? i do think we will pick top 5 so we do what we got to do to get him under contract.

  62. BrianBucs Says:

    Don’t worry Joe.
    You can bet there is a Huge divide over Winston at One Buc also

  63. Tye Says:

    AH! that clears things up.. being to think Joe may be suffering from schizophrenia or a ploy to play both sides..


    gt it!

  64. July Joe Says:

    Steve K,

    Never heard of the nut guy but if he was like me, great minds think alike.

    I find it funny that instead of answering my question, as you know you can’t do so, you simply throw out another question …. moving the goalposts.

    As for turnovers, go look at the season-leader lists through NFL history and you’ll see tons of HOF QBs led the league in turnovers in individual seasons. Peyton Manning was a massive turnover machine in his first 5 years (and he had AWESOME Hall of Fame level RBs and a great OLine and decent defense) and Favre was a turnover machine for his whole career. Both are in the HOF.

    And no, your thing about baseball pitchers isn’t a good example, as ERA is more important than mere SO’s, but turnovers are less important than yards/tds/points/advanced metrics, so it would actually be like a pitcher having a 1.89 ERA but who almost never struck anyone out. Many MLB coaches would love to have that pitcher and many NFL coaches would love to have a QB as talented as JW.

    Once again …

    Someone, anyone, please tell me another QB in the history of the NFL that was called a “bust” at the time he was #2 ALL-TIME in both career passing yards & passing TDs at his age, a former pro Bowler and the ALL-TIME leader in yards and TDs for his NFL team … I’LL WAIT … because NO OTHER QB IN NFL HISTORY has been called such … EVER!

  65. BucsBandit Says:


    Man of us on this site want you to go ‘on the record’ about something… are you the author of that ‘Jameis Winston Derangement Syndrome” book? Or are you close friends or connected to the author in some way? You shill that book quite a lot here and if you are indeed connected to it somehow then you’re violating FTC guidelines for online promotion without disclosure.

  66. BucsBandit Says:

    This Joe hit it right on the head…

    JAMEIS HAS HIT HIS NFL CEILING by now or has very little upside left.

    Jameis has worked so hard in the offseason, in the film room, etc. for over 4 years now and hasn’t gotten much better. So THIS is truly all you get with Winston.


  67. soggy Says:

    Hang down your heads bucs fans like the song say’s and cry, tom dooley, because this is a sh!t show and has been ever after the superbowl, but hey at least we have that win, how would it be if we did not have a superbowl like detroit, and I know I lived there 30 years..

  68. AlteredEgo Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation. Says:

    admin Says:
    October 17th, 2019 at 11:13 am
    Brilliant strategy

    There’s no “strategy.” Genuine beliefs. We don’t concoct nonsense we don’t believe in.
    first you can’t be such a snowflake on a sports message board…
    “We don’t concoct nonsense we don’t believe in.”….LOL…

  69. SteveK Says:

    July Joe,

    I will research for your question, but a couple of points about comparing Manning and Winston: the era of football is different. Can’t hit like the anymore.

    Also, how old is Pat Mahomes- he’s got a ton of air yards.

  70. July Joe Says:



    You are a weirdo man. I don’t have to “disclose” if I know the author or have become online friends with him, etc … tons of people know the author, his tweets are some of the most liked and commented on tweets from anyone who talks about the Bucs … everyone knows that dude!

    If you’ve read the book, you’d mention it too as it’s the best book ever written about a Bucs player by far! If it would have been written about Dak Prescott Cowboys fans would be promoting the snot out of it, because they don’t have Prescott Derangement Syndrome, but you and many others Bucs have Winston Derangement Syndrome for sure, just like the book says!

    As for your next post, YES, “this” is “all you get with Winston”, and what is “this”, it’s an ELITE QB according to the advanced metrics for the past 3 years, the best QB in the entire NFL under pressure and on 3rd downs last year, a top 5 “talent” and a guy who will OF COURSE turn the ball over a high clip with no run game, a bad O-Line and a defense that gives up 30 … THAT is all the exact same stuff that could have been said about Favre and a young Peyton Manning.

    Thank God Licht and Arians don’t think anything like you and that they think like me … we don’t need two more idiots in Tampa!!

  71. July Joe Says:

    Steve K,

    It’s EASY to compare QBs from different era if you use era-adjusted stats or just league rankings.

    As for Mahomes, he’s awesome. If Mahomes was on this Bucs team, they might be 3-3 instead of 2-4, and if Jameis was on the Chiefs maybe they’d be 2-3 instead of 3-2 … I’m not here saying JW should get paid more than Mahomes, just that he should get paid as he’s WAY BETTER than Jared Goff who got $134m over 4 years, and while it would be cool to see Tampa lock up JW for less than that, if they pay that, he’ll deserve it as he’s better than Goff, and if the Bucs let JW hit free agency he will get PAID by another team.

  72. BucsBandit Says:

    July Joe,

    It’s not just about knowing someone it’s about their being a direct/indirect financial gain being made from your shilling of the product.

    I’d hardly say it’s a good book (haven’t read it) based on all the 1-Star Amazon reviews. The reviews are HILARIOUS though!

  73. stpetebucsfan Says:

    This is not an either or proposition that many of my hyperbole flinging friends wish to make it.

    JW neither sucks nor he is the next coming…and so the real questions should be basic.

    Can we win with JW? What would we need to surround him with to win? Is he worth 30 million a year…or more than 10% of our payroll? Could we continue improving our TEAM and win with a lot less demanded of our QB?

    There is more than one way to the SB. We’ve tried the “franchise QB” way…we haven’t even freaking reached the FIRST ROUND of the playoffs much less the SB.

    It’s not about JW anymore…it’s about winning…and getting the most bang for your buck. Some of you will believe that’s still JW..fine. Some of us are losing faith and no not because we’re haters…other than hating losing. We just see another way to the promised land.

  74. July Joe Says:

    Carson Palmer:

    Ages 31-33 on Bengals and Raiders: Went 12-29

    Ages 34-36 on Cardinals: Went 29-9

    Palmer did NOT get more talented or even get “better”; he was the same dude … he simply was on a far better TEAM.

    TEAMS win – it’s such an obvious truth, but Tampa IDIOTS don’t get it.

  75. July Joe Says:

    Palmer’s first 6 games with Arians, as a 34 year old QB in his 10th year:

    7 TDs and 11 INTs … with at least 1 INT in EVERY GAME

    Over the next 10 games he still only thew 17 TDs to 11 INTs but the TEAM went 7-3 … the TEAM even WON a game where he completed just 13 passes for a measly 178 yards and just 1 TD to FOUR INTERCEPTIONS … amazing how TEAMS win, isn’t it??????????????

  76. Noles Says:

    Steve K

    not all Noles are homers… JW is not gonna get any better I agree, have been watching him the last 7yrs and have seen NO CHANGE in play. & Steve K your right FSU is aweful right now it’s hard to watch just like the BUCS… This is from an FSU alumni & 3rd Generation Tampa native

  77. SteveK Says:

    July Joe,

    Mahomes was a smart ass response. He’s special he’s an outlier. He’s generational. No knock on Jameis not being a Mahomes level
    QB. That’s not. Realistic. Unless your the Packers where you stumble on HOF QBs.

  78. PRBucFan Says:

    Amen Joe(s)

    I’m glad you now see the gospel I have been sharing the past two years about Freeman 2.0

    Good on you

  79. SteveK Says:


    No disrespect and I hope that FSU gets back on track under Taggert.

    I apologize if I was rude, I just think it’s insanity to not recognize the frequency rate of which he commits a turnover.


  80. July Joe Says:

    I love how when I drop truth that can’t be disproven, everyone just goes away and doesn’t have a comment …

    JW does not have to “get better”. When he entered the league, the QB won the Super Bowl that year played like GARBAGE the entire season, threw more INTs than TDs and was benched for Brock Osweiler.

    JW was “good enough” as a rookie to win a Super Bowl on a good TEAM … and he still is.

    Go read my Carson Palmer stuff above … he did NOT get more talented or even get better at 34 years of age, he was the same old Carson but on a better TEAM and he ended up going 29-9 even while throwing a bunch of picks and playing like himself

    JW entered the NFL as an elite “talent”, is still an elite “talent”, and is easily good enough to win a ring on a good TEAM … I don’t even understand how fans can be so stupid … it makes my brain hurt.

  81. SteveK Says:

    July Joe,

    Great question!

    But the total picture must consider the absurd turnover rate of Jameis. There would be no question of him being a franchise QB if he didn’t have these issues.

    Also he holds the ball longer than average.

    And, the inconsistency.

    I hope
    Jameis plays well enough for an extension. And, while o don’t have an answer about yardage, I have more questions about all the dam. Turnovers.

  82. PSL Bob Says:

    How about trying the one, by the name of Griffin, you already have on the roster. Geeze, this is really getting old. Year after year carrying a backup QB, who by multiple coaches’ assessment is very good, but has yet to play in a regular season NFL game. Unless Jameis has a miraculous ascent to decent play, let Ryan take a shot at it.

  83. ArmandoG Says:

    You people are freakin hilarious – Joe becomes a convert to “Hate Jameis Show” and suddenly everybody is a buddy – like a guy who shows up at the party with an 8ball in his pocket. 

    Here is a fact Drew Brees(NFL’s #1 All-Time QB) first 5 years in the league, he threw for 80 TD’s and 53 Int’s – sacked 92 times and his QBR was 84.9
    Jameis in 4 1/3 years has 100 TD’s 68 Ints sacked 147 times and his QBR is 87.5.
    Really don’t understand the Hall of Fame comparisons. Andy Dalton threw 124 touchdowns in his first five years and was sacked 140 times. In Year 6 he made his third Pro Bowl. One guy really isn’t relevant to any of the others. –Joe

    Sometimes a player can win a game, sometimes lose one but win consistently you need a team. Remember the SB years? An O Line that worked, Brad Johnson (SB Year 26TD’s -21Ints), Keshawn, Keenan and Joe, Alstott, and Simeon, Culpepper, Brian Kelley, Darby, Quarles, Automatica, you had starters and players that wanted to start – top to bottom. These Bucs have no Sapp, no Brooks, and no Lynch to say enough of this crap.

  84. Tim Says:

    Damn July just ask JW out already, there is not many true comparisons for JW. As a 5th QB, most we tossed by their teams by now that had comparable stats.

    You mention a bunch of HOF’s like they are the norm, they are in the HOF because they are not the norm and they all showed more than what JW has up to this point in their careers. (different eras of football, rules now favor QB and WR play)

    But go ahead type a long post full of non-sense. I wont be reading it.

  85. Oregonbucsfan Says:

    July, it’s guys like you that make my butt hurt. Sure, the Bucs are woeful in many areas. That isn’t the reason that Jameis time after time overthrows his receivers for the first 10 minutes of every game. It isn’t the reason he turns over the ball time after time at the critical time. The guy has not improved at all from his first game. He is a failed QB in the Tampa System (for whatever that is). Let him go find some system where he succeeds. Then come back and tell us how stupid we are and how smart you are. Like most realistic TB fans here I want us to move on from this clown and try someone else. At least the new guy will bring novel ways to screw up, and maybe, just maybe, someone overrules dim-light bulb and picks a winner for QB. We most definitely don’t have one now.

  86. July Joe Says:

    ^ NONE of you actually deal with anything I write, you just bounce to talking about other things and slinging insults.

    DEAL with what I actually posted … you don’t … because you can’t.

    And NO “Tim”, NO QB in NFL HISTORY with JW’s statistical resume (elite in the advanced metrics, #2 all-time at his age, etc) has ever been “thrown out” by his team after 5 years … NAME ONE that has or shut the ol’ pie hole.

  87. July Joe Says:

    Steve K,

    You hate turnovers, I get it. However, you seem to just pretend that Favre, Peyton Manning, and almost ALL otheer young gunslingers, most of whom had way better run games and defenses than JW, also turned the ball over at a high rate. Why is that?

    Why is Arians still raving about JW, comparing him to Big Ben after his 6 TO game and rightly blaming Mike Evans and others for many of the picks, while Vrabel benched and may never let Mariota play again when Mariota’s only got 2 picks on the season? Because picks are over-valued and coaches have no problem living with them if the QB is elite at pushing the ball down the field and making plays, that’s why.

  88. ArmandoG Says:


    Apparently you don’t understand the purpose of stats. It took Andy Dalton 6 years to make the Probowl but Jameis made it in his 1st? Actually, Dalton made it in his first season. The point is one guy’s QB stats on one team aren’t really relevant to another’s. It’s fun to talk about, tough.–Joe What’s YOUR point in that comparison. So I will leave you with this Doug Williams – these Buc fans ran him out town SB Winner & MVP Redskins, Steve Young – ran him out because he was left-handed SB Winner 49er’s – Trent Dilfer (interception and fumble machine) SB winner with Ravens – 3 young QB’s three SuperBowl winners who won because they were on teams that were good – this Bucs are not a good team and Jameis could go the whole season without a pick and what do you think their record would be?

    Get real. There’s nothing to get real about. NFL history is littered with players who got a change of scenery and thrived. That doesn’t mean this is the place for Jameis to thrive. It’ll play out, but there’s no reason to be afraid of a new QB. Look at all the ones that have entered the league after Jameis that have thrived and weren’t No. 1 picks. Arians might think a guy like Bridgewater or someone else is a better fit for his offense, or he likes a rookie. It’s not Joe’s call, obviously. –Joe

  89. T REX Says:

    July Joe=DB55

    Joe, check the IP addresses…this guy is an alias.

  90. Touchdown, Tampa Bay Says:

    Defenses run through our O line like tall grass. Give him time and Jamies will shine.

  91. Piratic Says:

    These might be the most reasonable, well-expressed, and thoughtful words ever authored on JBF.

  92. JimmyJack Says:

    Winston just gotta protect the football better. This was said after year 1,2,34& now into year 5. It’s not happened yet and it’s a reason we are losing. If Winston takes better care of the football we are at least 3-3 right now. Yes other things could of gotten us to 3-3 or better but you can’t have QBs throwing games away or fumbling them away and turn around and give him 35M.

    He needs to get better.After 5 years that’s a gimme. Piont a finger elsewhere if you want but if you don’t got a problem with them turnovers on Sunday you just must not care about winning. Me I care about winning and them turnover really ticked me off……..That’s twice this year this guys ticked me off and it’s just not good enough.

  93. Dlavid Says:

    You have been missed Steve !

  94. July Joe Says:

    Jimmy Jack,

    You say it is “the reason” we’ve been losing.

    So, what do you say about Peyton Manning winning the SUPER BOWL in the worst season of his career where he mad more INTs than TDs, was benched for Osweiler and played like trash?

    Turnovers do NOT “lose games” … TEAMS lose games.

    This is NOT difficult to understand.

  95. JimmyJack Says:

    July Joe dont freaking put words in my mouth. If you are going to misrepresent somebody here do yourself a favor to look like less of an ass and not use quotation marks when doing so.

    And I’m one of the rare few that still supports Winston. I just don’t make no excuse. The guy played like total ass on Sunday. And on game 1. So many of these negative plays are totally avoidable whether you admitt it or not.

  96. July Joe Says:

    ^ I read and said, “what are you talking about” … then went back and read your comment again and you did say “a reason”. I apologize. I literally say “the reason” and just posted, probably because I just expect everyone on this forum to say “the reason”, but again, I do apologize as that is not what you said.

    Regardless, “a reason” is sort of useless statement now? Missing one pass can be “a reason” a team loses. A lineman missing one block can be “a reason” a team loses. What’s the point of even making such a statement unless you want people to believe it’s “the reason”?

    And yes, some of Jameis’ bad plays are avoidable … so were Favre’s and Manning’s and all other QBs … you don’t think DeSean Watson’s two picks he threw last week weren’t avoidable? Of course they were. HOWEVER, if a QB plays scared and refuses to take risks, he’ll just be Mariota and be out of a job anyways!

    Arians and Licht love Jameis because he’s a risk-taker and strives to push the ball down the field … you guys act like you want a gunslinger that NEVER turns the ball over … news-flash, that type of QB CAN NOT EXIST in a vertical passing attack with a bad O-Line. It may exist in Kansas City where Mahomes is throwing to wide open guys, but that ain’t the case in Tampa.

  97. Jean Lafitte Says:

    We lose so much that we have taken losing to another level. We threw away an entire season in advance just so Licht could draft Winston, despite all the red flags. Around the middle of Oct. almost every season we try to win less just to position ourselves at the bottom for a higher draft pick. I’m sick of this strategy. Miami’s doing it this season “tank for Tua” and watch it bite them in the butt. We need stronger leadership in the front office and one who puts winning at all cost ahead of draft position.

  98. Bird Says:

    Logical joe vs creepy crazy obsezzed joe

    I’ll take logical joe all day / everyday
    Objective reporting is nice these days cause we don’t get it in the newspapers or on the news for sure

  99. Pete I Says:

    @ T Rex No DB55 is not JulyJoe because while DB55 is wrong he is not a spastic gibbering imbecile like July joe who is also wrong by the way.

    He is more like NDOG but with a less obvious reasone for why he is in love with Jameis “meaningless stats” Winston

  100. D1 Says:


    Your Hall of Fame comparisons are misguided at best. Probably because you’re looking almost exclusively at inceptions. Perhaps not,but that’s the overriding focus of your comments. That much focus on comparing INT’S misses the bigger picture of why those QB’S were successful.

    You seem to have no problem with calling Buc fans ignorant for not seeing winston in the same fashion as you. But it’s not as simple as that when it comes to the national media, many of whom are HOF”ERS , the League and the other people who comprise the industry that is the NFL. Either theyre ignorant as a local or perhaps it’s another person in the equation that is ignorant.

    Quite simply these multitude of individuals comprise a rather significant consensus on the subject. There’s no group of people claiming winston is elite. And there is no question that the QB’S you listed as comparisons received an almost universal nod to their achievements. Why is that?

    One last point, elite players all of have this in common. They’re known for a particular part of their game. They’re elite in some way. What is Winston’s elite skill? What’s the first thing you think of when you think of him?

    Most would say turnovers and he is indeed elite in that area. That’s not a local perspective either so no need attempting to discount it or rationalize it away. To attempt it is a fools errand. I’m asking why that is the national opinion.

    Last, any elite metrics you point to are so narrowly focused and selected for supporting evidence that it’s easily dismissed. Which automatically

  101. gotbbucs Says:

    The bottom line is this, he won’t change. No amount of coaching during the week will affect the clock in his head and his trigger finger come game time.
    They cant give that QB a $150 million contract. They’ll be eating dead money two years into it when they realize their mistake.

  102. Buccaneer Bonzai Says:

    One guess which Joe wrote this article.

  103. ElBajito43 Says:

    They are who we thought they were
    They ARE
    who we thought they were……

  104. July Joe Says:


    Nearly everything you typed is incorrect.

    1.) I don’t mind people not agreeing with me on Winston. My problem is with people who make wrong statements based on ignorance and because they don’t know QB history at all. When I point out they are wrong, they either just don’t reply or “move the goalposts” to another subject; it’s so stupid and like debating with a 9 year old.

    2.) You are talking about “human opinions” rather than data … human opinions don’t mean anything. Arians, Kyle Shanahan and others rave about Jameis … guys like Max Kellerman and Stephen A Smith rip Jameis … it’s all dumb. However, the actual stats show Jameis measures up to nearly ALL the HOF QBs no matter what “human opinion” is.

    3.) You are DEAD WRONG when you say that all the HOFers werre universally well regarded as that isn’t even close to true, especially not when they were just 25 years old! Aaron Rodgers barely had put down a clip-board, Tom Brady was considered a mere game-manager, Favre was considered a wild turnover machine, Peyton Manning was regressing badly in his 5th season, Drew Brees was a draft bust on his way to a 2nd team, Philip Rivers was considered a guy who caved in big games, Dan Fouts was considered a bust, Fran Tarkenton was considered a bust, Steve Young a collossal bust, Kurt Warner was out of the NFL, etc., etc., etc. YOU DON’T KNOW HISTORY!

    THAT is my main problem, almost EVERYONE on this site and on most sites is so mind-numblingly dumb when it comes to QB history, yet they all actually think they know what they’re talking about … it’s like going to an asylum and talking to guys who sure they are the King of England …

    MOST QBs who ended up in the Hall of Fame were NOT EVEN CLOSE to universally well regarded at age 25 … people today are ignorant of history and literally think everyone knew Drew Brees was going to be a Hall of Famer from the minute he stepped on the field … Brees SUCKED early in his career, Fouts SUCKED, Bradshaw SUCKED, the list goes on and on.


  105. ElBajito43 Says:

    “Winston Sucks!” said my Wife
    And I said “Honey, we have to give him one more year.”

    So far…. NO BUENO…

    are doing the PSYCHOLOGY on Winston to say don’t Turnover the football so then Winston plays full of Anciety and Fear of Failure
    This QB plays very tentative and he can’t play that way.
    The guy is a HR or a Strikeout kinda player
    And Buccaneers Coaching thought “Well let’s make him a second baseman that can hit for average.”


  106. Echase Says:

    We saw it last year, the team loved fitzmagic. Winston has talent, but he lacks common football sense. It doesn’t help that he has the worst GM in the NFL

  107. Losinghope Says:

    Was pleasantly surprised to see some absolute truth. Was actually starting to lose respect for writers here . At times Joe sounds more antagonistic than anything..why? Go figure (I suspect for more viewership) . I mean why else would he speak with so much undeserved praise.? Becuz he damn sure hasnt proven his self to be worthy of it.

  108. Matt B Says:

    We’ll see what the free agent market is like for Jameis soon enough. I don’t think any of the 32 teams will sign hjm to be their starter – except for maybe the Bucs unfortunately.

  109. Bucsfanman Says:

    Some of these um, rants, are the definition of insanity.
    I’m not sure how anyone, anywhere could watch a Bucs game and consider our QB “elite” at this moment.
    However, the Johnny Cochran-like defense is rather entertaining. I think the poster missed their calling!

  110. Survivor camp Says:

    July Joe I touch and agree with you. I believe Winston will follow Steve Young and Trent Dilfer after Bucs life. Ijs.

  111. Morgus the Magnificent Says:

    July Joe, you completely lost any credibility with this statement (copy/pasted here)…”but turnovers are less important than….”

    It’s ALL about turnovers buddy.

  112. SteveK Says:

    All the yards all the touchdowns. Consider the era.

    All the interceptions. All the fumbles. All the time taken to throw the ball.

    Inconsistent individual performances.

  113. T REX Says:

    July Joe = Winston Bot

    Not sure if he’s a russian though.

    I can’t stand Winstonpologists. The worst type of fan. Player over team.

    Please leave when he isn’t resigned.

  114. Bucsace Says:

    July Joe: Is that you Jameis?

  115. July Joe Says:

    ^ Notice how NONE of the Jameis-bashers above actually point out any errors in what I said, or even deal with any of the points I raised … they just talk smack.

    As for you Morgus, NO it is NOT “all about turnovers” and that is the whole point … only IDIOTS think it is. EVERY SINGLE WEEK multiple QBs who turn the ball over more than the opposing team’s QB still win the game … check Jimmy G’s games this year … or Deshaun Watson last week with his 2 INTs but a “W” … or Carson Palmer that I mentioned who had a FOUR INT game and his TEAM still won easily.


  116. PRBucFan Says:

    Look dude your argument sucks.

    Your basically saying make everything else amazing to mask a s h I t t y Winstons play and the Bucs can win the super bowl.

    G t g o h 🙄

  117. SteveK Says:

    July Joe,

    It’s all about the frequency of turnovers. Can’t win with that. Too difficult to overcome the poor execution.

  118. July Joe Says:


    I’m saying the exact opposite. Give Jameis a mere average line, run game, defense, coaching and special teams, he’ll make the playoffs every year … THAT shouldn’t be too much to ask, just “average” all around the board.

    Peyton Manning won the SuperBowl when he played like the blind, retarded version of Winston.

    Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostettler, and other CRAP quarterbacks have won SB’s and none of them were even remotely close to as good as Jameis.

  119. July Joe Says:

    Steve K,

    In regards to the “frequency” … so what do you with the FACT that in nearly 50% of Jameis’ career games, he has thrown ZERO picks … and yet the “team” still has a losing record in such games?

    Comparing JW’s first 6 games with Arians to Carson Palmer’s first 6 games with Arians … JW threw 10 INTs (Palmer threw 11) but also had 2 games where he threw zero picks (Palmer threw at least one pick in EVERY game)?

    JW, like Favre and young Peyton Manning was, is considered a “turnover machine”, but like those guys, his picks come in bunches and not game after game after game …

  120. Mark Says:

    More crap , forget the very poor rt side of the offense line , a receivers that doesn’t understand come back to the ball ( maybe more than one and a receiver that quit on a route in the end zone with the ball exactly where it should have been . A defense that folds like a cheap chair .
    Funny thing when we take all those other problems away like in the rams game the Quarterback plays well. Hmm there is no way there is a connection.
    This is why I don’t read your dribble .
    You can’t seem to wrap your head around the fact that if the defense gives up 35 points a game the offense has to take chances with the ball.
    And that’s the real story . Have another beer

  121. LegHumper1of1 Says:

    Hope this doesn’t violate any posting rules, but it’s good news for most of us, if true: