“Oh, Man. There Goes Devin White.”

July 5th, 2019

Very down on Bucs.

In the eyes of a well-known draftnik, Tampa Bay is a black hole of football that swallows up good players and spits them out because it is the worst-run football operation in the land.

Matt Miller of Bleacher Report, who made his bones as a draft analyst, has a podcast called “Stick to Football.” In a recent episode, Miller and his co-host, someone named Connor Rodgers, revealed their lists of top front offices in the NFL.

Miller emphasized this list reflects teams’ scouting departments, draft strategies and coaching staffs, not solely of a team’s general manager. But when Miller began talking about the Bucs, he sure had pointed words for Bucs AC/DC-loving general manager Jason Licht.

Maybe at one point a bit unfairly, Miller pulled no punches on the Bucs drafts in recent years and blamed both bad drafts and coaches’ inability to develop players as to why the Bucs are almost always moored in Buccaneers Cove (last place in the NFC South).

“I have the Bucs at No. 32 not only because Jason Licht drafted a kicker in the second round who is now out of the NFL. But he really hasn’t drafted well,” Miller began. “Jameis Winston, we are talking about a guy who has never reached his potential and you are on a third head coach with him.

“Vernon Hargreaves, Noah Spence, Roberto Aguayo. Those were your first-round and second-round picks in 2016. They have amounted to absolutely nothing. Hargreaves is a bust. Spence is a rotational player. Aguayo was a comically bad [kicker].

“Even in 2017, O.J. Howard, OK, that was a no-brainer. We will give you credit for that. Chris Godwin? OK, we will give you some credit there. 2018, you don’t take Derwin James and you take Vita Vea who cannot get on the field consistently. Ronald Jones — you open a running back spot for this dude. ‘Here, it’s yours. The running back job is yours.’ He can’t get on the field. It’s just a lot of bad picks.

“I hope the pick of Devin White will turn things around. Hiring Bruce [Arians] was the right move. But I have to put Jason Licht at No. 32 because I have no faith in this team. This is one of the few franchises, they draft a good player and it’s like, ‘Oh, man. There goes Devin White. He probably won’t play up to his potential because he got drafted by the Bucs.'”

Now Joe was on board with drafting Vita Vea and Joe thinks it is harsh and borderline inaccurate to suggest Vea can’t stay on the field. Vea was hurt in the first week of training camp last year, far different than RoJo, who is lucky he wasn’t cut because he was drafted so high.

Once back from his injury Vea steadily improved and had a fine second half of the 2018 season. And clearly Vita was drafted to eventually take Gerald McCoy’s place. Folks who claim the Bucs should not have drafted Vea apparently did not watch the Bucs in 2017. That team, other than GMC, had a disgraceful defensive line.

Remember, Vea missed virtually all of training camp with an injury. That’s a significant setback for a rookie.

Rogers had a wild claim, with no attribution, stating he senses Bucs defensive coordinator Todd Bowles (not Licht, not Arians) was running the draft for the Bucs back in April.

“And I’ve seen that come back to bite teams,” Rogers said of a defensive coordinator running the draft. Rogers then rattled off failed Jets draft picks that he claimed Bowles personally made while head coach in New Jersey.

Joe has no clue how Rogers came up with that. But more and more every week, Joe is convinced Bowles went to Arians after watching tape of the past two years of Bucs’ secondary play and told Arians there was no way in hell he could compete with the players he saw.

87 Responses to ““Oh, Man. There Goes Devin White.””

  1. Defense Rules Says:

    Miller is right on a number of his conclusions in this article, but wrong about several others. On one hand he lists several players who he says are busts, but on the other he “blamed both bad drafts and coaches’ inability to develop players” as the source of our Bucs’ problems. Seems like it’s hard to know for sure if it was the draft pick that was bad if he’s only had one coach his whole (short) career. Folks need to let some of these things play out.

    And as far as Bowles “running the draft for the Bucs back in April” goes, I seriously doubt BA just turned over the keys to the kingdom to Todd. Surely TB had LOTS of input into who was selected, but I think we can all be pretty certain it was a collaborative effort. There was a LOT riding on this draft to be sure, in more ways than one. BA doesn’t strike me as someone who’d callously say (to the Glazers, Licht & all others) ‘Now y’all step aside, this is TB’s show, not yours or mine’.

  2. Alanbucsfan Says:

    Koetter’s zone running scheme results in rb paralysis by over-analysis, not just on run plays, but on understanding pass blocking assignments.

    Smith’s soft coverage “reads” results in much the same paralysis.

    The above referenced analysis is lazy, over simplified , and will be proven wrong. The coaching staff of previous regime misused this team’s talent.

    Licht has made mistakes, but not 5-11 mistakes. That’s on pathetic previous coaching regime.

  3. Bucsfanman Says:

    Defense Rules- I understand your statement in principle. However, it’s hard to dismiss just how bad some of these picks were.
    I stand by my statement that the only reason Licht is still here is because of Bruce. Otherwise, there is no way that you can justify his employment.

  4. Magadude Says:

    Noah Spence stands out the most as simply not cutting it as far players still around VHIII could be, but they’ll get final read on him pretty soon. Aguayo…yeah, definitely a bust. Winston has not accomplished what the Bucs have wanted to with him on the field and in the bigger scheme. Nothing new there. We’ll know more about Jones this year. But the fact is, guys like Godwin and Howard have done fine, and it looks like Vea may be fine too. The good thing is Arians didn’t have anything to do with drafting any of the questionable clowns, and if they don’t do well this year, and Licht gets the boot, so will they (and I do now share the opinion that Licht will be here as long as Arians wants him here. Hogwash).

  5. Magadude Says:

    ^^^^do NOT share the opinion that Licht will be here…

  6. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    Licht certainly saved his job with the Bruce Arians hire. I think this draft is much better than the last few…..and, I don’t care if it was BA or Bowles (probably a combined effort).

    Licht has some mitigating factors in his favor…….Kwon, Humphries, Brate, Barber…..perhaps Auclair.

    I am hopeful Rojo, Spence & VH3 get on track…..if they do, opinions will change on Licht.

  7. teacherman777 Says:

    He forgot to mention that Licht drafted MJ Stewart as a nickle back in the 2nd round!

    A 4.56 nickle back with short legs!

    I swear the MJ Stewart is one of Lichts worst picks of all time.

    We could have had Donte Jackson from DBU (LSU)!!!

  8. D-Rome Says:

    What’s the number of secondary players drafted since 2016? Is it 10 or 11? That’s a lot of draft capital spent on the secondary with nothing to show for it. It’s a joke and a disgrace that anyone thinks Backstabbin’ Jason Licht has been a good GM.

  9. JA Says:

    Scanning the archives, I found this post draft analysis from the “prognosticator of prognosticators,” Matt Miller:

    Luke Kuechly, Inside Linebacker, Boston College

    The Panthers needed to go defense, but the smarter pick would have been Stephon Gilmore (CB, South Carolina) or a defensive tackle. The fact that they drafted an inside linebacker has us shaking our heads in the B/R war room.

    Kuechly is a good athlete, but the huge gap at defensive tackle won’t help this catch-and-tackle type linebacker who lacks the strength to take on blockers and make plays.

    Grade: D

    Trent Richardson, RB, Alabama

    The Browns made a defensive move by trading up one spot to make sure that the Tampa Bay Buccaneers could not draft Trent Richardson. With so many picks in this year’s class, thanks to the trade with the Atlanta Falcons last year, the Browns were able to sacrifice three late-round picks to move up and get the best back in this class.

    You might hear that this is too high for a running back. It’s not.

    Grade: A+

    Like most talking heads, when Miller states the obvious he treads lightly in the kiddie pool. When he goes out on a limb, it often breaks and plummets him into the abyss at the deepest end of the pool. Gasping for air, he/they miraculously resurface to continue their ongoing quest to get something right.
    Bleacher Report is aptly named. It has a certain ring– like they get their information from the cheap seats.

  10. Bird Says:


    Yah. That tells the story right there. Good find. Trent Richardson turned out to be a shiny dog turd. And unfortunately we know all about Keukly .

    Now. He has a right to talk about players of years past cause you have to give a guy at least 3 years to see potential

    Or in bucs case where coaching is questionable (5 to 10)

  11. Bob in Valrico Says:

    No question that BA is very likely the only qualified coach that would have retained Licht if given a choice. And who would come here without that option?
    Licht can longer afford to miss on top draft picks or injury plagued free agents.

    His free agent signings were not evaluated well and most weren’t good enough
    to improve the team or fit in.

    Bottom line, the team has stagnated during his tenure. He has to turn his attention to other needs on the team instead of stockpiling WR’s. This a team strength. Move on to an area that is not a strength like the defense.

    Licht ignored the defense until it bit him in the azz, what a lucky man he is
    that BA was available to help fix this team.

  12. TDTB Says:

    Licht’s drafting isn’t horrific in a vacuum. It,s the context that makes it horrible. Drafting VHIII when Tunsil dropped in your lap (Thank god he McKay was in the chair when Sapp fell). Stewart instead of Jackson or any of the undrafted DB’s that are better than him and start in the league. Drafting an OL and not DL late in a class filled with DL prospects. Not drafting one of 6 high quality RB’s that were available to them in the past two drafts. Aquyo is the icing on the cake. Again, I hope I’m wrong but this year Adderly was available when they selected Bunting, Gardner-Johnson was available when they selected Edwards and Omenihu was available when they selected Nelson. Hopefully Licht and Company are smarter than all of the draft “experts” who had these player rated higher at the same positions.

  13. Gettinthebucs Says:

    What happened to the comments under the it’s podcast? LOL!

  14. ModHairKen Says:

    JA, that’s good reporting. Joe, can you run your stories past JA first?

  15. BringBucsBack Says:

    Aguyo was the worst pick in the NFL, ever! No SOCCER PLAYER is worth a second round pick in an NFL draft, especially to a perennial loser. I’m impressed that this guy even knows that Noah Spence exists. Hell, we hardly do and we actually watch this team. The 2016 draft is nearly useless!

    Licht approaches every post-1st round pick like it is the 6th round! “Hell, lets give ‘em a shot?!” He won’t begin to get better until he changes this approach. However, I have a better idea for Licht!

    Does anyone think that Derwin James would have played well under the old coaches, let alone become an All-Pro?

    Riddle me this? The Bucs drafted all of these DBs, again, and Joe reported a couple of weeks ago that Vern & last year’s Auburn DB are projected as our starters? If so, fine. BUT, why draft two more if these guys had potential?

    Let the season ticket holders vote on what players to select from a list of four players, from each round, given to them by this great scouting department of our Bucs! Now you’ve given some ownership to the most engaged fans and you may just increase season ticket sales. Thanks BBB! YW, everyone!

    When Broderick Thomas was drafted 30 years ago (hard to believe), I remember some draft guru (maybe helmet-head, I truly don’t remember) said; “This guy is so good that even the Bucs won’t ruin him”. I believe he was correct in that instance but, not for a lack of trying.

    Tampa Bay Buccaneers, where we have been killing careers for nearly 50 years!

  16. Clodhopper Says:

    Hard to argue with that. I was a huge Licht supporter at first but he just sucks any more. If you have bad drafts, lose 70% of your games and still put us in cap hell, that makes you a shtty GM.

  17. Pete I Says:

    This is not been a well run organization since Malcolm got ill. Not from the top and not from the bottom. Who else other than the Browns been as bad for so long? Maybe the Jets and Cardinals. But right the Browns and Jets teams might be trending up. The Buc’s? Can’t say that yet.

    BA and his golf cart are the only real changes. We shall see.

  18. #1bucsfan Says:

    I agree light has made some bone headed draft picks an FA signings but my opinion is that guys like Spence, vh3 ,Whitehead , Davis an others need to be developed which the last coaching staff DIDNT do an the schemes didnt fit what there talent was. Like wen vh3 started playing man in the slot in stead of zone on the outside he started looking more an more like 2nd round talent I don’t think he should have bin taken so high but coaching an schemes make a helluva diff

  19. #1bucsfan Says:

    Give some of these players a chance to be developed by a real staff an see if there still busts some might be but some might turn out to be good to

  20. tmaxcon Says:

    Bucs are the black hole. I have been saying that for years. Most embarrassing sports franchise on planet earth 42 years and only sapp and selmon are the only legit great players produced. Ring of underachievement is filled with backups. Its embarrassing how bucfan slobers over failures and post season choke artists they label legends. No one confuses popularity with greatness like low standard bucfan…. you can sleep comfortably that no sports franchise will ever compete for the worst winning percentage in sports bucs will own that honor until the end of time…

  21. Clw JB Says:

    When Spence and VHIII have solid years under Bowles and the D catapults into the mid tier of the league – it will be hard to blame the GM.

    Now the kicker pick..no defending that waste of resources

  22. BADMAN Says:


  23. BADMAN Says:


  24. Ghost of Darrell Henderson Says:

    Gump could have resurrected his career with this year’s draft class. The only reason he has a job is his connection to BA.

    If he had chosen Josh Allen in the 1st, people would be saying that he just might be a genius.

    In the 2nd, if he had selected OL or the best CB in the draft, Treyvon Mullen, the legendary (MVP) corner from the National Championship Clemson University, people would be saying how smart he was. Instead Mike Mayock and Chuckie will get the accolades for that.

    In the 3rd, he tried showing off his fancy moves and traded the best RB in college football history for two practice squad guys that would have been there in the 5th and 6th rounds. Henderson would have more than replaced the offense (27 TD’s) that Djax and Hump provided while filling a position of dire need. Opponents would have had to cover DH with a LB and a safety on every down.

    DH might have been the greatest kick returner in Buc history, although Memphis wouldn’t let him return kicks usually, when he did, he averaged over 50 yards and took one 99 yards for a score.

    If he was in love with SMB, he could have selected him in the 4th round and even then, that would have raised some eyebrows.

    Gump simply blew it, again!

  25. DBS Says:

    Licht did what he was told in this draft. He was a lapdog6 Get over it.

  26. Joe Says:

    Does anyone think that Derwin James would have played well under the old coaches, let alone become an All-Pro?

    Certainly wouldn’t have been the same player.

  27. Ndog Says:

    So what happens to all of these “opinions” if VH3, Davis, Spence and Via all go off this year under coaching that actually plays to their strengths? I’m willing to bet they don’t show up and say they were wrong…. That’s why guys like this are worthless.

  28. Joe Says:

    So what happens to all of these “opinions” if VH3, Davis, Spence and Via all go off this year under coaching that actually plays to their strengths? I’m willing to bet they don’t show up and say they were wrong…

    More importantly, what if they don’t go off? Then the claim that all of these draft picks weren’t coached up is then exposed as nothing more than a con to deflect blame.

    If that happens, what then? Arians has already stated he’s not here for a rebuild but if all of these players are proven to be lousy, why keep them? Then you are looking at a rebuild with a coach who is not here to rebuild.

    This is called “dysfunction” and rarely do those teams win.

  29. Joseph Mamma Says:

    Rogers had a wild claim, with no attribution, stating he senses Bucs defensive coordinator Todd Bowles (not Licht, not Arians) was running the draft for the Bucs back in April.

    Was this Aaron Rodgers or Fred Rodgers who made this claim?

  30. SC Bucs Fan Says:


  31. Ghost of Darrell Henderson Says:

    When I 1st saw Derwin James at FSU, I thought that he was the best football player on the field. I remember thinking to remember that name, he will be a great one.

    He got hurt pretty bad and that destroyed his college career but I knew that he would again become great.

    When Gump traded back, I thought it was a true genius move to not only get James where he was slotted to go but to get a couple more 2nd round picks. Never mind, Gump completely botched the 1st and 2nd rounds.

    Vea is a solid player, but not an impact player. I think Vea might have been available in the 2nd.

  32. Hodad Says:

    Can’t argue with his take on Licht, he is the worst G.M. we’ve ever had his record says so. Winston is on his 3rd H.C., but really is on his second when you consider Koetter was his O.C. under Smith.

  33. Pittsshore Says:

    He is correct. We suck

  34. joestang Says:

    people don’t like the truth. Licht is the worst GM in football. Can’t argue his track record

  35. Pickgrin Says:

    All the lazy, negative analysis of the Bucs coming into this year is somewhat understandable considering the Bucs are coming off back to back 5-11 seasons and 11 straight years without a playoff game.

    Most though, are not considering the importance of coaching.

    Coaching matters -a LOT.

    With all the Super Bowl wins and appearances by the Patriots the last 2 decades – how many of those New England teams would have been rated top 5 talented teams in the NFL when broken down on a position by position basis? One or two maybe? Probably none. They have Brady sure – but Bill Belichick is literally the all time greatest NFL coach when it comes to maximizing the talent available to work with and scheming to put the opponent at a disadvantage.

    The Buccaneers defensive coaching staff last year was literally the WORST in the league at the start of the 2018 season. Fast forward a year and we now have a top 10 defensive coaching staff led by a smart, experienced, aggressive playcaller in Todd Bowles.

    Bruce Arians and his hand picked coaches are going to turn this franchise into a winning organization. THIS YEAR! Largely with Dirk Koetter and Mike Smith’s team that went 5-11 two years in a row!

  36. 813bucboi Says:

    licht has screwed up on some picks no doubt….but imo, the biggest culprit is lack of coaching, development and poor scheme….

    we’ll find out very soon….

    GO BUCS!!!!!

  37. stpetebucsfan Says:

    I think FAR too much is made over who is running the draft! On any team.

    There is simply too much time for scouts, and other talent evaluators to go over and over and over and over each of these players. Now if the head guy has hired bad scouts and evaluators that is a different story…but ONE guy is not making these HUGE decisions.

    Somebody has to have the old Harry Truman sign of “The Buck Stops here”. But no matter who has that sign….I think that’s still BA with this franchise…plenty of others will have SIGNIFICANT impact on the decisions..Licht…Bowles…assistant coaches…scouts…and calls to college coaches…a LOT goes into a draft and it’s virtually always a CONSENSUS pick not one guy’s decision.

    Even in the situations where that is not the case…see JW MM..the consensus was either or…and many thought both would be good…neither of these picks were controversial.

    OTOH where Aguayo came from is harder to tell. Ultimately Licht was the guy with that “sign” on his desk so it stops with him. This year however while I believe all of our picks were the result of long, long hours of input from many sources with some having more credibility in BA’s mind than others…at the end of the day this is BA’s draft.

  38. Race to 10 Says:

    Most all of it is inaccurate and dude is a nobody so you kinda have to go out of your way to be stupid just to be heard. And to be fair to all the defensive guys drafted, Geraldine McCoy wasn’t all to impressive in that defensive scheme either

  39. Bobby M. Says:

    Everyone keeps highlighting poor coaching…..Atlanta signed Koetter back to coach an MVP QB and high octane offense. Defensively there’s some argument but who picked the coaches?….Who signed Smith to an extension?

    Everything that exists sits with Licht…..He’s in over his head and he’s praying Arians & Co. will bail him out. I don’t believe it happens….I think Arians will discover that it simply takes too much to compensate for Winston. Once Winston gets $25 million or more per year, this team is doomed. At that point you HAVE to hit on all your picks for the next few years until the cap rises. Licht goes entire drafts missing. Bowles is here to step in when we start a rebuild….If not Bowles, Leftwich and if we end up with Leftwich, this will be Raheem Morris all over again.

  40. Defense Rules Says:

    Threads like this one get to be comical after awhile. The question & comments always seem to degenerate to ‘Was it bad coaching, or was it poor drafting?’ And then two camps go at each other.

    The answer to that question is ‘YES’. Over the years we’ve drafted poorly in many cases, but we’ve hit on some others. And over those same years we’ve done a poor job of developing many if not most of the players who we drafted. I’m convinced that BA & company has a decent chance of ‘salvaging’ some of those prior-year picks, especially some of those from the 2018 class like Vea, Davis, Whitehead, Watson & maybe RoJo. Plus several from the 2017 class have solid potential, like OJ, Evans & Godwin. And they can surely get some from the 2016 class to play better; guys like VHIII, Spence & Ryan Smith, although I question whether any of those will be offered a follow-on contract unless they play lights out this year (does anyone REALLY think that VHIII will be worth $9 mil next year?).

    Jameis, Donovan & Ali are from the 2015 class are already locked up, as is Mike Evans from the 2014 class. Will Gholston is the only one remaining from the 2013 class & he MIGHT be on shaky ground, this year or next year; only time will tell. Beyond that we’ve got LVD left from the 2012 class … that’s it (Dotson was undrafted prior to that, but he’ll be gone next year too). Reality to me is that NONE of our KEEPERS who are on their 2nd contract … except for ME13 & LVD (earlier) … have received recognition as being anything but ‘average at best’ at their respective positions. So was poor drafting or poor coaching the culprit? YES.

  41. Defense Rules Says:

    Pickgrin … “Largely with Dirk Koetter and Mike Smith’s team that went 5-11 two years in a row!” There’s already been a MAJOR turnover on the defensive side, and I’d bet we’ll see a LOT next year on the offensive side. Compare the roster from last seasons first game to what we have for a roster on this season’s first game & my guess is that there’ll be 40-50% turnover.

  42. 813bucboi Says:

    does anyone REALLY think that VHIII will be worth $9 mil next year?.

    i do….

    once he gets proper coaching and plays in a scheme that fits him….

    GO BUCS!!!!

  43. Bucsfanman Says:

    813- Vernon better have one heck of a turn-around if that’s the case. IMO good football players can play in any scheme. I’m not saying they’d necessarily excel, but VHIII hasn’t even really been good.
    This is a do or die season for him for sure!

  44. Prada...sec 147 Says:

    Jason has gotten better year after year I definitely would offer him an extension. His connections in the league are Pretty impressive, cannot overlook Mike Smith and the blasphemous comments Dirk made last year or overlook the fact that he was coaching for his job he said F all development of players I just want that cash money. Dirk had Devonte Freeman as a rookie and never played him then the next season that followed Freeman Blew up I haven’t given up on anyone on this team!

  45. bucnut2 Says:

    I’m with defense on this as I think its a little of both poor coaching and poor drafting. I would say that when it comes to the offense, it’s difficult to argue it’s been poorly coached. The offense has set passing records and by in large has been productive outside of the running game and turnovers(see winston) Koetter is back with Matty Ice and he’ll be VERY good if not great there and Monken was snatched up by the Browns as an OC very quickly. Defensive coaching and drafting has be horrible for years. I think some of this has to do with Licht wanting to surround our franchise QB with the weapons he needs to succeed which I would argue he has done.

    Overall a very mixed bag for Licht and for me mostly bad. I think he over-estimates the value of his own picks and part of the reason we are in salary cap hell is that he over pays “his” picks(see brate, smith, Marpet) to make it seem that he has drafted successfully. He is a very below average GM.

  46. Defense Rules Says:

    813bucboi … I’d wager that VHIII will spend this year as a nickel in Todd Bowles defense (his man-to-man coverage skills on the outside … left on an island … just aren’t all that spectacular). I’d also wager that several others will spend this year being nickel DBs in Todd Bowles defense. He’ll keep them until he can replace them with someone better (aah yes, the shades of Raheem Morris). You don’t exchange $9 mil for a nickel.

  47. D1 Says:

    Talent vs coaching is a frequent topic and unfortunately it’s not one or the other, it’s both.

    What isn’t mentioned, I mean never, when the topic rolls around is injuries.
    Specifically, injuries in the defensive 2nd and 3rd levels. Mike smith, okay he sucks, but who would have turned that group around? Simple answer is no one. The problem with a team loaded with rookies or 2nd year redshirts is that the team failed to put out a consistent lineup from week to week. Obviously, better coaches weren’t happy with the depth on that side and the draft reflects it.

    Prada, Dirks job wasn’t to get Rojo ready for next year. It was to win games .
    Was Rojo an asset in that effort….please !!!!!!!! Not even remotely. So calling him out for not playing an unprepared lower tier rookie is so much mental retardation.

    Freeman, in Atlanta, I guess you missed it when BA, a coach no one questions his creditibility, said exactly what koetter has said. College RBS come into the league without blocking experience. Considering both run a similar offense, if BA, great coach , would have been here Rojo would have been on the bench . Maybe a little less, maybe more, point is .

    The Freeman Rojo connection is not something egregious or telling as both coaches have agreed on the subject. Now ba may be able to accelerate the process, but that’s not at all what your saying so it’s not possible to make a point with it..

    FACT IS KOETTER HAS multiple years with an offense whose rushing attack was top 5. I don’t know, but probably more than BA. Just a guess. So that really doesn’t jibe with the picture you’re attempting to paint..

    Bottom line, there’s a very real possibility that the offense this year isn’t as good as last years. And it’s not coaching if that happens. Just extend the logic and see where that leads you…

  48. D1 Says:

    The Patriots shouldn’t be rolled out as an example. Billichek has been an innovator and to date, no team has been able to duplicate it. That’s with management, players, scouts, etc that grew up in the system and left for another team. And it’s still not been replicated successfully.
    I don’t see any point in thinking that there’s an example in that organization that is translate translatable into this back running organization.

  49. Jean Lafitte Says:

    Joe says, “That team, other than GMC, had a disgraceful defensive line.”

    C’mon, GMC was one of the reasons why the defensive line sucked last season.

    With only 16 total tackles and one pass deflection. That was a disgraceful season totals.

  50. 813bucboi Says:


    how can you say, his man-to-man coverage skills on the outside … left on an island … just aren’t all that spectacular when its well known that he studied, practiced and played in smitty’s zone scheme…lol…

    you’re making coming up with a verdict before seeing proper evidence….you cant question his man to man skills when he played in a outdated zone defense but when he played in the nickle his play improved….that was because he was playing at the LOS…..

    i’d wager VHGIII will spend this year playing both positions, outside CB and nickle and he’ll have success in both which would further prove that the problem has been poor scheme and lack of development from the previous staff and lead to an extension…..

    GO BUCS!!!!!

  51. JimmyJack Says:

    Was it talent or was it coaching? The debate continues……..Scapegoating is part of being a fan. We all do it.

    It’s just easier point a finger at one spot and think think it can solve everything………But deep down I think we all know it’s never quite that simple……….And I think that’s why Dirk failed. The Lovie Smith era was a Trainwreck and we didn’t change much but replacing Lovie with Dirk.

    We ran the same offense(which was maybe the only decent thing) with mostly the same coaching staff setting the tone. Then we turn around and hire a DC who runs the same exact wrecked defense that failed before and for some DB reason thought would work with the same players. I Think we retainedd a lot of the same D coaches too, not sure………..We kept all the same team leaders in place as well………Dirk inherited a team that was an abomination. The culture, team chemistry, practice habits& preperation technique was in direct need of radical changes. Dirk didn’t change much of anything and when he did make changes he was always too slow to make them.

    This is Why I am optimistic about Bruce…….Because we didn’t just change Head Coaches this time. We decided to start a new Era. Offensive & defensive systems gone. Position coaches gone. Practice schedule, style & techinque gone…….Team leaders replaced. Culture replaced. Defensive roster overhauled. They even went so far as to take a sledgehammer to the players lounge & stero system. I bet they even got new Waterboys & Ballmen.

    Bruce has made radical change now & given his track record it will be for the better.

    The talent is tough to acquire, for now we got potential to work with. But it does not take an extreme amount of talent to play solid foot Which is why I say to let the Bucs get good first & then we can be great.

    Solid football is a realistic goal with this team and should be every fans expectation. Most fans are too scared to hope for solid football and I get that……….Me, I aren’t scared of getting burned no more. This franchise has helped me develope thick skin. Y’all jump on the bandwagon later………..We got about a month til preseason games start………You’ll know solid football when you see it……….If not have fun laughing at me getting burnt agian.

  52. JimmyJack Says:

    But there’s no way you can scapegoat talent as why we suck. It was well documented that the last coaches were unable to develope any CBs. They did not develope any OL either. RB has been a complete disaster.

    I do not say that to scapegoat only coaching but it is well documented that they did not do good at their jobs either.

    Just take the RB position for example…….Look at that guy in Pittsburg, Conner……..He’s been head and shoulder better then any RB on our roster and if y’all think it’s just cause his talent and had we drafted him we would be fine at RB I’m here to tell you that your wrong.

    Teams like Pittsburg do this all the time when they take players who would be jokes in a Bucs uniform and get them to hit maximum potential. Is their magic in the water in that city? If not then explain this spit to me. But you cant, can you?

  53. JimmyJack Says:

    D1 talking about injuries does more to hurt your case then anything.

    A well coached team will have 53 players that can all contribute and play their jobs well. Good depth is one of the key ingredients to having a winning season…….This is why a team like the Eagles can lose both their starting QB and LT and win a SB and a team like the Bucs would use the same injury as a excuse………A well coached team could properly evaluate a bad player and if they cant get him performing they can figure out how to upgrade………Unlike Dirk who will look at a bad player and determine that he is a starting RG(Benechot)…….or that he is a starting LG(Phampile). If you can’t evaluate the or develope them or replace them you failed as a coach. Period!!

    Depth contributes to this game 17 weeks per season for the last hunderd years……….If your depth can’t give you solid football and they are I’ll prepared you are just a lousy coach.

    For freaks sake…..The last TD Dirk’s team gave up we had three guys are run into one another in the endzone!!!!!! Three freaking years in the same freaking offense and our players don’t even know their jobs!!! And the main coulprit on that play was the most experienced guy they had. A good HC replaces Grimes before he is our worst CB…..not after.

  54. BA FAN Says:

    How about adding Nassib and the undrafted player last year that picked off three interceptions, and our current third string QB, to good pickups by Licht!
    Remember that Licht worked previously as a scout for the Patriots and then BA, both franchises looking for overlooked athletes with good potential to develop. Unfortunately the Bucs failed to hire Coaches that could develop any talent til now with BA. So players we have given up on many could have been developed into starters by now. Wait and see what development can do this year. It is necessary to do so quickly with young players to stay out of cap trouble!

  55. Allbuccedup Says:

    Malcolm Glazer wasn’t a bad owner he hired Dungy and Gruden. As far as his son’s go it’s like having the three stooges running the team.

  56. Cobraboy Says:

    JimmyJack Says:

    This is Why I am optimistic about Bruce…….Because we didn’t just change Head Coaches this time. We decided to start a new Era. Offensive & defensive systems gone. Position coaches gone. Practice schedule, style & techinque gone…….Team leaders replaced. Culture replaced. Defensive roster overhauled. They even went so far as to take a sledgehammer to the players lounge & stero system. I bet they even got new Waterboys & Ballmen.

    Bruce has made a radical change now & given his track record it will be for the better.

    Exactly, and a major reason I am optimistic.

    Since Gruden has the culture actually changed?

    Certainly not under Morris, who was a promoted assistant coach.

    One could argue Schiano gave it a shot, but too Old School for players to buy in. He was too nit-picky on things that didn’t matter, you know, “toes on the line”, discipline for the sake of discipline, and not for an overall goal of winning.

    Seems to me this is the first time in over a decade where the “culture” has been ripped from top to bottom, and I would not be surprised if there are new ballboys.

    ‘Bout time.

    I don’t see any real connection to how the Bucs were…even last season. Certainly, Licht and his staff are here, but BA is running the show now, not Licht. Licht seems to be in a support role more than before.

    And I won’t be surprised, given possible success, that Arians gets kicked upstairs to a “Pres. of Football Operations” role with Bowles pre-determined to become HC.

    This change reminds me of the culture change since Wyche was fired and Culverhouse died: total and thorough.

    2019 will be the most exciting season in many, many years.

  57. Defense Rules Says:

    813buc boi … VHIII has been a Buc for THREE years. In that time we’ve played 48 games. VHIII has played in 26 of those (54%) and started 24 (50%). He’s the antithesis of what Todd Bowles looks for in his outside corners (tall, fast).

    With outside corners like Davis (6’1″ & 206 lbs), Sean Murphy-Bunting (6′ & 195 lbs), Jamel Dean (6’1″ & 206 lbs) who are all fast & were all excellent in college at man-to-man coverage, why would TB stick VHIII (5’10” & 204 lbs) outside? Particularly considering that VHIII is only healthy HALF the time.

    Bucs have ALREADY extended VHIII to next year, at $9 mil, IF he’s on the team come next March. What I said in my earlier post was … “And they can surely get some from the 2016 class to play better; guys like VHIII, Spence & Ryan Smith, although I question whether any of those will be offered a follow-on contract unless they play lights out this year”. My point was that for VHIII to COLLECT on that $9 mil, he’ll have to play ‘lights-out’ this year. Hard for a nickel to do that, particularly one who misses half the games.

  58. Defense Rules Says:

    JimmyJack & Cobraboy … Wow, you two have me even MORE EXCITED than I was before reading your 2 awesome posts. There’s sooo much to be excited about this year, but of course, we didn’t ‘rebuild’ we just ‘reloaded’. For some reason I get the feeling that we went from entering the fight with a .22 pistol (a cute little pee-shooter) to now showing up with a Gatling gun (my weapon-of-choice BTW, although they took mine away years ago).

  59. JimmyJack Says:

    Cobra…….You’re right. Gruden changed the culture.

    Many consider it minor but one change Gruden made that is very tangable was improving our goal line offense. I loved listened to Gruden talk about goalline plays and how important they are on MNF. I know when he says that he’s talking from his heart and not just filling dead air.

    Schiano got a bum rap from the media. The media did run him off and I bet a lot of it was personal………You can never trust the media but even moreso in Tampa Bay……..Most of them are yankee fans and they don’t care about the same things we do.

    I still listen to all of them because I am a die-hard but I don’t trust most of them………..Not even sure about Joe even though he claims to be a true Buccaneers fan. It’s probably unfair to question Joe like that ……………..but so much of the media is made up of spare part that the northeast didn’t want it takes me a very very very long time to have any faith that our media genuinely cares about this team.

  60. Allbuccedup Says:

    If VHIII plays okay this year only missed a couple of games this year trade him in 2020 draft do not pay him 9 mil unless he makes the pro bowl. His rookie year he was average at best not worth a number one pick.

  61. Jmarkbuc Says:

    Although I get why people call Licht, Gump…

    Isn’t that an insult to Forrest Gump? I mean he was successful at everything he did…

  62. JimmyJack Says:

    Also Cobra that’s a good point that Licht is the only connection between last year’s team and this one.

    All the other major pieces are gone. But I’d say you left out Winston. I’d argue QB is a major piece……Right up there with GM and HC. I think your QB truely is that important.

    It don’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that if we don’t win the scapegoaters will all blame GM and QB if this year is a losing season………I’ll be honest when I say that I’ll likely join them…………Not sure who I’ll scapegoat more but when you got a team that consistently can’t figure out how to win the key people/players have to be the most accountable…….If not they need to change positions and play RG or NT. Not QB &GM.

  63. 813bucboi Says:


    you have to put player in position to be successful….players are at a disadvantage when you make them do something that goes against their skill set….

    its a make or break season for everyone minus the rookies, VV and mike evans imo…..

    GO BUCS!!!!

  64. Ndog Says:

    This team has SOOOOO many guys with gifted natural traits that could be elite level players if coaches properly. White, Vea, J. Evans, Murphy-Bunting, Dean, Godwin, OJ, Jones, D. Smith, Marpet, Winston and Gay. Then throw in the established M. Evans, Suh and LVD and you got a pretty good collection of talent. The big question is are these guys willing to take coaching and do what it takes to be elite or are they content with being losers and getting paid? We will find out soon enough.

  65. 813bucboi Says:


    i guess you forgot TB had morris claiborne outside who is the same size as VHG and just about the same speed….

    not sure what your definition of “lights out” is but all he has to do is stay healthy and play like he belongs in the NFL…..imo, he doesnt have to make all pro or pro bowl but 4ints would be nice….byron jones made the PB without an INT and now he’s dallas’ #1 CB…..

    better coaching and scheme fit will fix half his problems….his problem hasnt been lack of talent…its been coaching, scheme fit and health…..

    GO BUCS!!!!

  66. JimmyJack Says:

    VHIII is on numbered time. While it is obvisuos we drafted DBs cause Bowels said he can’t win with who we got it’s just as obvisous that Vernon is not seen as a longterm answer here.

    Even if he plays great it’ll be risky to invest a huge contract for a guy who has issues staying healthy……….Plus if we draft and develope well Vernon’s money can be used to upgrade another position.

    Great news for us is that either way Vernon has a lot of money to play for this year. Whether it’s Bucs Money or not doesn’t matter for 2019. The guy needs to play great if wants to make some serious cash.

    The Bucs are actually in a good position with Vernon………As much as you can be for a 2nd round bust.

  67. DBS Says:

    The media ran Schiano off? Better go back and revisit history. Player’s did not want him. They did not want to be Buccaneer Men
    Just Punk kids. The fans on these very pages wanted him gone. Along with fans on other sites and the one’s that backed the billboards. No. It was not just the media

  68. Tye Says:

    Mark Dominik
    Jason Licht

    Raheem Morris
    Greg Schiano
    Lovie Smith
    Dirk Koetter
    Bruce Arians

    Byron Leftwich
    Josh Freeman
    Mike Glennon
    Jameis Winston

    If anything, the Bucs should be used to teach other teams what not to d or not to employ!

  69. 813bucboi Says:


    imo, we drafted those CB’s because we didnt have any depth behind VHG and davis….

    the #3 CB was ryan smith or mj stewart….you cant win on defense with those 2 being the back ups….

    but it is what it is…..we’ll find out very soon….

    GO BUCS!!!!!

  70. JimmyJack Says:

    DefenseRules…………I won’t call BS on Bruce for just about anything but his line about retooling and not rebuilding is complete hogwash.

    This is way more then a retooling because the defense & ST have both been totally torn down……….Not sure what the dictionary say but when you tear down sometime I say you need a rebuild.

    On ST we replaced our two biggest key players. We may have cut our old captain too, I’m not sure……..all new coaches too. I’d also guess that our ST roster will be mostly new too.

    On D we decided to change the system we have been using for the last 40 years. Got rid of our 2 Captains. Have new players at every position & replaced every single coach that was involved.

    Retool my ass.

  71. JimmyJack Says:

    813 I agree with the depth but I would hope then plan on developing these guys into starting caliber players.

    And if we got the right guys they should be able to show they are worthy this season.

    That’s when you let Vernon walk. Pick up a comperation draft choice & use extra money to sign you a LB………Now you got Dean out there doing better the Vernon was and you go ahead and draft another CB and that position becomes a strength with great competition.

    This is part of my Bucs battle plane for 2019 and is well thought out & my logic is undenyable.

  72. D1 Says:

    Jimmy Jack,

    I’m hopeful as well. Then again it’s that time of year to be hopeful.

    I agree Arians is a massive upgrade because as you stated, He’s changing things from the bottom up. Dirk wasn’t going to reorganize the team, or shift the landscape under the players. He was there when they were looking.

    As far as Injuries making the opposite case , I believe that the phrase, sorry but I’m not buying in to your explanation yet. You started off by mentioning depth …and mentioned building a roster 53 players deep. That’s the job of the GM. So I’m confused.

    Yes, it’s the coaches job to have guys ready to play. But it’s the GM’S job to look at the roster and notice the little things like a 35yr old starting corner who in camp had injuries. On the other side, a red shirt freshman with a carryover injury and little to no experience. Two 2nd year safeties, both ended the season with injuries. 2 drafted secondary players. Basically, 1 player had all the experience the other combined have what 3 yrs between them..
    My point is the GM should anticipate problems before they become problems.
    A couple vet free agents could have been a great stop gap. Nope not them.

    Btw, I look at the signing of Fitzpatrick as one of the worst moves , not because of Fitz bit because of winston. Just not smart to sign young Fitzpatrick and the senior Fitzpatrick.

    Sorry, on point. The bucs secondary lead the league in line up changes. By a good margin I believe. Rookies are inconsistent by nature, the entire secondary at the start was basically rookies or 2yr guys…never did the same group start from one week to the next. I agree that the coaching was poor, but I don’t see any staff making it work. Sorry, not one. Im saying they would have done poorly but not to the extent we witnessed.

    And I know you understand the divide between starters and 2 and 3rd string guys. It’s not possible to lose all of your first string secondary but that happened. Back ups are not the starters and this team had with each injury the next man up was less experienced than the last. Again, it’s the GM who should see the weakness of the roster. Licht just doesn’t seem to plan for things. If your building a rookie defense, then there’s ups and downs to be expected. If you’ve got a bad or poor teachers as coaches then it’s the GM who is a fault even more. Don’t send rookies to poor teachers. Send vets.
    What did light do…the opposite. And you find failure to reside with coaching.

    Sorry, it’s probably perspective but we can agree to disagree. I’m looking at different than it appears you have. Btw, when koetter was hired, I don’t recall him bringing in his guys….monken came later and that was a dirk guy. Other than him, and smith, it would appear koetter didn’t have the ability to attract a staff. Blame it on koetter…I see that and blame licht for not noticing the huge red flags..or noticing and doing zip.

    I’m happy with Arians, but I don’t expect to see an offensive improvement of any significance. I think more efficient, less turnovers, but less yds and chunks.. that’s where koetter did great, scheme. You talk of line guys
    And I point to licht resigning marpet, and Donovan as proof of developing players. The swing linemen idea is not the head coach, it’s the GM who drafts a guy and evaluates his ability to learn more than one position. Btw, it’s a great idea, but it’s lights not dirks. BA is doing the same thing if you believe he’s the shot caller. So great coach is doing the same as shippy coach …both can bad or good bit not one and the other.

    Predictions on the season….???

  73. Defense Rules Says:

    JimmyJack & 813bucboi … One of the things I love about Nick Saban’s teams at Bama is that in any given game just about everyone plays it seems. Whenever someone goes down with an injury (or is ineffective), it’s ‘plug-and-play’ time. Even with new replacements parts, the TEAM never seems to miss a beat (OK, I’m a die-hard Bama fan, what’d you expect?).

    Depth is a beautiful thing, and so is competition. Guys not only EARN a spot on the team, but they also EARN playing time. And they especially EARN a spot in the starting rotation. Saban is one coach who definitely looks for CONSISTENCY when it comes to performance on the field. That’s where the Bucs need to get to IMO.

  74. JimmyJack Says:

    813……. I guess my point is that it’s not just about replacing VHIII……..and it’s not just about gaining drpth…….or not just about Bowles saying he can’t win with our returning DBs.

    It’s a combination of all. And that combination is what made them use that draft stragety. I wanted a defensive draft and thought they would go with Front 7 players so I was confused with the selections I think our discussion brings a lot of senseability to the reason. Another thing that adds value to their draft choices is that I expect if these DBs are not needed to make big contributations on defense then they will roll back and make a impact on STs………..If these rookies earn starters roles I do expect the other DBs on the squad use that as an opportunity to make their contributations on ST …………The 2019 draft should make a impact on STs either directly or indirectly & I believe that was part of the plan

  75. JimmyJack Says:

    DefenseRules………Your emphasis of the words earn & contribution is pretty great………Didn’t seem like many players had to earn much around here lately. Look at Djax. He didn’t have to earn nothing it seemed like………In fact it was reported he didn’t have to earn a chance to return a kick. That tight was bestowed upon him and he could take it at his own liesure………Did Chris Baker have to earn anything? Sure didn’t look like it. How about Douglas Martin. Did he earn his fat payday? Grimes should have been benched after his first game IMO…….But he wasn’t. Started games he didn’t have to earn.

    The list goes on……..and the controbutions are basically non-existent.

  76. JimmyJack Says:

    T.J. Ward was my worst case of a guy who didn’t earn anything yet got it anyway.

    They put the dude on the field and he obvisously didn’t know what his job was on several occasions. Entire sidelines left uncovered cause you put a unprepared player on the field…………That’s an F for T.J. but that is a big ole F for the coaching staff. And it gets worse when you keep him in the game.

    The talent argument us defientally valid but it does not begin to explain why your player was unprepared.

  77. Rod Munch Says:

    I’m not on the Vita hypewagon that others seem to because he had one good game against a 5th string 49ers QB, but even with that, to say Vita can’t get on the field… What an idiot. Additionally what moron judges defensive lineman after their rookie season – that is almost always an incredibly stupid thing to do.

    I’m not a big Licht fan, he’s an idiot for taking Ronald Jones when you have Ryan Smith as your top backup and you’re starting Chris Conte, but at least this year he didn’t listen to the idiot mob who wanted to waste another high draft pick on a RB when you need two safeties and a starting corner.

  78. Jameis Almighty! Says:

    Absolutely true stuff! Fireeee Licht!

  79. JimmyJack Says:

    Rod Munch you might be the idiot cause they didn’t select Ron Jones in spite of Conte and Ryan Smith because they had three choices in that 2nd round……..Oh I guess you forgot…….I guess you also forgot that they drafted a CB and S with those picks…….the exact positions Conte and Smith play.

    I’m not a big research guy myself but dangum you your comment needs it.

  80. Mike Johnson Says:

    I know it hurts but. Matt Miller is..dead on the Money. No need to sprinkle sugar around the edges..Licht and his drafting has sucked to holy hell and beyond.

  81. Destinjohnny Says:

    The guy is spot on

  82. BucEmUp Says:

    I cant wait for the silence of these haters to become deafening

  83. BigMacAttack Says:

    Licht really should trade his second round pick every year for an established veteran player

  84. DB55 Says:

    MJ Stewart over Donte Jackson is a fireable offense

  85. Jeff Read Says:

    Light didn’t want Aguayo— ownership insisted. That said, he has made other questionable picks.

  86. Buczilla Says:

    I don’t put much stock in Matt Miller’s opinions even though he made a few valid points. First I read his “final” 2018 mock draft (dude puts one out every week or so) and he got almost every pick wrong. Secondly, he had Derwin James going 13th overall, so he obviously didn’t think he would be an all pro in his first season. Totally unfair and ignorant to bash Licht for not taking him. Lastly in his write up on Vea, he spoke about him in glowing terms, so I don’t get him bashing the pick now unless the Bucs turned him down for a scouting job or something.

  87. BucEmUp Says:

    The guy completley contradicted himself. He says he has no faith in Jason Lichts drafting , buy then he says every high profile player drafted by this team never olays yo their potential. What an idiot, he just inadvertently admited that coaching has been yhe problem the entire time