October 18th, 2017

Worried about VH3.

It’s getting to the point that just about everyone can see it.

First it was a few Bucs fans on Twitter with itchy trigger fingers, ready to blast any Bucs player they perceived to be not getting the job done. Then it turned into loud mumbling. Then it turned into a top subject in a Bucs press conference.

Now, it’s going national.

Just about anyone who watches a Bucs game wonders why cornerback Vernon Hargreaves is playing deep center field as if Barry Bonds was at the plate.

In other words, Hargreaves is giving receivers more cushion than you can find at a Serta factory. And it’s begging to get noticed in the highest of places. Even Andy Benoit of called out Hargreaves for getting roasted by Larry Fitzgerald because Hargreaves played about 12 yards off the future Hall of Famer.

Earlier this week, winning Bucs coach Dirk Koetter was asked if he had any concerns with Hargreaves’ play and Koetter didn’t hesitate.

“Extremely, extremely,” Koetter said. “Vern is not in a very good streak of games right now. We asked Vern to be more aggressive this year and to be more aggressive with his coverage and he started out doing that. He started out doing that in OTAs and training camp, but he has not played his best football these last three games.”

Bucs defensive coordinator Mike Smith stated he gives his corners a bit of freedom on where to line up. If they prefer giving initial cushion while best covering their their man, so be it.

Problem is, receivers are taking advantage of Hargreaves and his cushions. So Joe thinks, to a degree, what Smith is saying is sort of a cop out.

If Hargreaves is giving up too much space, comfort or not, it’s the responsibility of the coaches to tell Hargreaves to get his arse closer to the receiver whether he likes it or not. The goal here is not comfort, but to win games and that comes about when players are able to execute properly.

If this crap keeps up, then Hargreaves, who has not defended a pass targeted towards receivers he is (not) covering in two weeks, might have to find a comfortable spot on the bench.

40 Responses to “Concerned”

  1. doctor_berto Says:

    Should have taken Laremy Tunsil

  2. Clw JB Says:

    Too early to call a bust? Problem is we have no depth there that is any better – SSDD

  3. Lamarcus Says:

    Try having press man coverage. He seems to do well there

  4. Supersam Says:

    As much as we complained about Lovies defense, I just read this defense has given up the most yards through the first 5 games in franchise history!!! Unreal. What a joke. A freaking joke of a team.

  5. martinii Says:

    Sophomore slump, the more we analyze him the deeper we get into his head, opponents getting into his head and he has no one pushing him. A couple of interceptions and he will be fine.

  6. tmaxcon Says:

    Another wasted draft pick… simple as that. No need to over think it. When you take a 6 or 7th round undersized prospect with a first round pick you are going to be disappointed

  7. gotbbucs Says:

    Being a “players” coach like Koetter and Smith is fine and dandy….unless the players aren’t mature enough to make the right decisions on the field.
    At some point it comes time to get in their face and make them responsible adults. Obviously there aren’t enough mature leaders in this locker room to hold everybody accountable, so the coaches need to step in and make things happen.

  8. Gencoimports Says:

    Bench him for a game or two. Let him get his mind right.

  9. sorryitriggeredyou Says:

    no pass rush = exploited secondary. Ya’ll gotta know, if there’s no passrush a WR will get open guaranteed. Only 1% of corners in the league can stay with a WR indefinitely VHIII isn’t one of them. Licht this one is on you man. This coach is great at deflecting blame and shame on the press for asking the question, they should be hammering Koetter right now on his coaching. IS BAD.

  10. DallasBuc Says:

    DO NOT blame Jason Licht for zero pass rush. He shall only garner praise. Leave Britney alone you bastards!

  11. DallasBuc Says:

    Where did the Koetter poll go? Fans are pist

  12. ndog Says:

    Poor draft pick and the sad part is most of the posters on this here website said so before the draft. How did they ever think slow and short would succeed in the NFL? Just so many poor picks and that folks is why we are a bad team right now and probably will be for a long time. Hargraves, Spence, R. Smith, Aguayo, McNicholas, ASJ, and then in free agency, Ghost Johnson, the left tackle I forgot or purpose, Swaggy (lazy) Baker, D-Jax (Meshawn part 2), and so on and so on. Just think alone I just named 11 holes on this team, you cant win like that folks.

  13. Hawaiian Buc Says:

    He was never a 6th or 7th round prospect. That’s just so ridiculous. Everyone knew he was a top prospect coming out of the draft. Guys like Ronde Barber thought he was going to be a great player. Why he hasn’t worked out is the big mystery. This guy had 2 amazing preseasons. Nobody could complete a pass on him, and I believe he had 3 INT’s. However, as soon as the regular season starts, he’s a totally different player. I just don’t get it.

    I don’t know the fix, and neither do any of you. You can say bench him, but would you really rather have Ryan Smith? Before you quickly say yes, think back to how bad Ryan Smith has been. I’ll take my chances with a talented player that is struggling over a less talented player who has never shown anything. You can say get closer to the receiver, but then when he gets beat deep, we’ll blast him for that. For whatever reason, he’s just not a good player right now. Hopefully that changes, but it’s not looking good.

  14. Evolvingbucfan Says:

    Damn, I am a Huge Gators and Bucs fan, so it was a no brainer when i got my Hargraves III Bucs jersey in August thinking he was going to have his break out year this year……..boy was i wrong and now really wishing i had a Reedy jersey for what this kid does off the field and what he did before and during the hurricane to drive handicapped people around to shelters by going back to his old job to help out. In my eyes this kid is what real men are made of, a rare quality these days, and i’ll be rooting for this Guy to having his breakout returned punt or kick off. GO BUCS

  15. Hawaiian Buc Says:

    “How did they ever think slow and short would succeed in the NFL?”


    Many said Ronde was short and slow. The league is littered with short CB’s. And VH3 might not be the fastest, but he is extremely quick and excellent at turning his hips. You can see in training camp that he has some special physical attributes. I didn’t necessarily like the pick, but that was because I wanted a pass rusher. As a CB, he was the best available. Every pick we make has a ton of people saying he will be a bust. There were so many pissed off with the pick of Lavonte David. There were people who didn’t want Mike Evans. There were people upset we drafted Kendell Beckwith. As fans, we don’t know squat. We get lucky sometimes, but overall we are completely ignorant. It’s really easy for us to look back and say “see, I told you he was going to be a bust”, but we conveniently leave out all the times we were wrong. If you think you are never wrong, then why aren’t you in the business? If you are that good at evaluating talent from your couch, you should be a NFL Scout.

  16. Kobe Faker Says:

    Are the sheep that blind

    Milli VH3 vanilli

    has no stop and go, quick twitch, change of direction, recovery speed and quickness…

    and never will

  17. T in Orlando Says:

    I say a lot of this on coaching. If Smith comes out and says that they allow the corners a little leeway in how far off the line they pay at the snap, and VHIII continues to play with a 8 – 10 yard cushion, and the other teams continually take advantage of that, then VHIII needs to be COACHED to play differently.

    He may not be very good at coverage, but when the ball is thrown and caught before the receiver is 5 yards from VHIII, then those coverage skills aren’t even coming into play. Plus, that far off the line, VHIII has no opportunity to bump the receiver unless he wants to draw a flag.

    He played OK last year, how does he look so much worse this year? He didn’t get injured and I can believe his skills are diminishing at 23. That leaves coaching. Smith and the DB coach need to sit him down, tell him to stop over thinking and just play ball.

  18. Hawaiian Buc Says:

    has no stop and go, quick twitch, change of direction, recovery speed and quickness…”


    That’s just simply not true. Go read any of his scouting reports. He had the best change of direction and quick twitch of any CB in the draft. He was described as elite in those areas. Now obviously it hasn’t been showing up on film, but I’ve seen it with my own eyes in training camp. You can watch him versus the other corners (with the exception of Grimes) and see that he is head and shoulders better than all the others. It’s just not showing up on Sundays.

  19. tmaxcon Says:


    You already have one charity case in cancer93 that all you do is make excuses for are you sure you have time to defend and make excuses for another loser…

  20. Bobby M. Says:

    “Just so many poor picks and that folks is why we are a bad team right now and probably will be for a long time. Hargraves, Spence, R. Smith, Aguayo, McNicholas, ASJ”…..

    I would add….why are we using picks in the top rounds on players that are contributing part time…AND are positions that are not deemed high impact positions. (Godwin, Evans, Beckwith, etc)

    If we agree QB is the highest impact position on the field….then next in line is LT or DEs. We should be drafting DEs in rds 1-3 every year until we hit on some….Instead we went KICKER IN THE 2ND! ASJ was what….a 3rd. Brate was a undrafted free agent we got off the street. TEs are not high value positions. Kickers are not high value positions. Tom Brady is winning with low pedigree talent at WRs….WR is not a a high value position when you already have Evans, Jackson, Brate, Humphries…..To be clear, i’m not saying we didn’t find talent but Beckwith is a stud, Godwin has talent….but from a cap standpoint, this team has a small window until we have to sign Winston to big $$$. We should have been swinging for high impact players on the DL. QB pressure makes every other level of the defense look a grade better.

  21. Bucsfanman Says:

    It’s time for Smitty to EARN that contract extension. Either he can play the position or he can’t. We can’t ‘wait and see’ if he’ll get his confidence back. One way or another, this coaching staff better be prepared. We’ve chased a few coaches out of here for incompetence. Get it right!

  22. Mike Johnson Says:

    Somewhere in the bowels Of Tampa loredom lurks a guy sitting in a small musty smoke filled room..fingers tappin away, smiling..waitin…for the inevitable trigger to be pulled…And he’s ready to take the torch. His nane is..JOHN GRUDEN!!

  23. Hawaiian Buc Says:


    Maybe you should learn to read and comprehend. I’m not defending him at all. I’m defending the fact that he does have talent. He’s not a talentless football player, he just looks like it.

  24. Owlykat Says:

    Licht is the culprit. Get a great GM and all this can be solved. He knew he had to first pick players to properly protect Jameis and all he did was brag on our OL who failed often to open holes for our runners last year and our LT Smith has been a turnstile since he was made our LT. He also knew we had to improve our pass rush or our DBs would have problems, yet he didn’t get a single new DE this year; nor did he sign Peterson after Jameis worked him out and wanted him. No Licht thought he was a genius who knew better than anyone else how to get us into the playoffs this year. So how is our genius doing?

  25. Jolly Bucs Fan Says:

    While HGV III might be a bust, Licht is not the problem, he has still loaded this team up with Talent.

    The issue is that coaching is not developing or using that talent correctly in most cases, or they are just not able to put it all together into a winning formula.

    Koetter? Smith? Both? not sure. Somethings gotta give tho.

  26. Capt.Tim Says:

    My father taught me this, about Leadership.
    You can deal with a man who is Lazy, but very Smart. He will figure out how to accomplish things, with less effort.
    And you can lead a man who isnt very Smart, but is hard working. He will prevail with effort.
    But dont waste your time on a lazy, Dumb man. Some task are insurmountable.

    A cornerback who is both short and slow, is asking too much. Its really that simple. And his attitude only makes the job even more impossible.

    I quit watching the rest of the NFL, over the kneeling nonsense.
    Since the Bucs have all been standing for the Anthem, Ive watched only their games.
    After Arizona, I wish one of them would kneel.

    . . If only we had a DE. . . . And Another CB . . .

  27. unbelievable Says:

    Man you guys are depresssing. Making me reconsider starting my mornings with JBF.

  28. Mr Ed Says:

    Mike Smith got paid and apparently doesn’t really care if he’s a head coach again, or even the defensive coordinator for much longer. Clueless would be too kind a description for how the defense played in Phoenix. Disgraceful.

  29. Kobe Faker Says:


    “It is, it was, and it will always be about the QB (development)’

    Jameis rooki year is the same as it is at present and will never go higher because

    Koetters scheme of holding on to the ball and deep nonprobable, ineffienct, no yac, deep passing game.

    NO NFL QB WILL BE SUCCESSFULL IN KOETTERS PASSING OFFENSE….brady, brees, ryan,smith, big ben would have been broken to pieces

    look all last year ….KOBE FAKER was adament this system is flawed in the NFL and we needed a new offensive coordinator and playcaller

    Who did KOBE FAKER say before the season was the MVP

    Glazer ownership…because EVERYONE demanded a extension for Licht beer…


    they are being consulted and the glazers are heeding their advice to wait and see



    “No Problem mundo!”


    dec 18, 2017 vs ATL halftime

    “This is my House”

  30. nate123456 Says:

    I dont care if he was the number 1 pick BENCH HIM!

  31. LakeLand Says:

    This is wrong to single out one player, when the entire team stinks.

  32. Kalind Says:

    This isn’t rocket science. He’s slow. Really really slow. He doesn’t want to get beat deep so he gives cushion. If he could run a 4.4 this wouldn’t be a problem.

    I don’t see Artie Burns getting roasted like this….

  33. bucster Says:

    Jason Licht is Mark Dominik redux.

  34. mike10 Says:

    Look, I agree, VH3 has absolutely been horrible this season.

    But I’m not about to give up on this guy and watch him go and be part of the ‘No Fly Zone’ (ahem, Talib).

    Maybe he’s not a lockdown corner, but he’s got talent. MIKE SMITH, do your f’n job and use him to his strengths/scheme better. Be a C-O-A-C-H

  35. jeff chick Says:

    its not him its the leadership on this team gm is just bad and the head coach is lost and out of rhythm a win would be nice . Besides I just do not care anymore im just over the Jamis hype

  36. mike m Says:

    They fired Gruden & no one has been of adequate caliber since.
    Bring Gruden back. He won’t do as bad as we have done since he’s gone.

  37. Paul Keyes Says:

    Joe’s can you please ask why they are not changing our scheme, Vernon should not have been covering him in the first place. Did you see anyone else covering Mike Evans? No, because good coordinators put their lock down corner on opposing teams best receivers, they make adjustments and demand their corners bump receivers to get them off their spot. Not the Bucs! We have a plethora of good linebackers, let’s try a 3-4, at this point what do we have to loose? Also how about rush Lavonte David, is Shiano the only coach that can maximize his potential? These are the questions I would like you and members of our media to ask, OT the softballs being thrown up there!

  38. Pickgrin Says:

    IDIOTS! – the lot of you – (channeling my inner ‘The Kevin’)

  39. firethecannons Says:

    Thanks to the Hargreaves issue, I have zero confidence in Koetter/Smith they both have totally allowed this to happen and almost act surprised by the fans reaction to his AWFUL play. The kid needs to be coached up immediately after every series in every game–wtf is the coaches doing down in the game? Huge disappointment and he has embarrassed this team huge. At this point do not bother with putting him back in another game–he needs to see the bench and become the “back-up” I would rather see Ryan Smith, Javien Elliot or Mcclane in there. I am ready to throw in the towel with the Bucs–disgusting that koetter acts surprised–“I don’t want to turn this press conference into a Vernon Hargreaves bashing” yeah –why the fock not–he is BAD! He is losing the games for us–radio personalities toasted him on air out here in Arizona. So DISAPPOINTED in VH3 and Koetter and Mike Smiith.

  40. firethecannons Says: