More Troubling Data On Doug Martin

January 11th, 2017
Rock bottom

Rock bottom

The unreasonably blinded Doug Martin backers who think he was a good running back during the 2016 season might want to avoid clicking to read more of this post.

It might induce a seizure. has been rolling out “next gen” statistical data. Think a credible version of Joe realizes that’s a difficult oxymoron to wrap ones head around, but try.

Last night, the focus from Matt Harmon was 2016 running back performance against a “stacked” box. He explains.

One of the Next Gen Stats we have here measures performance against stacked defensive fronts. This gives us a running back’s yards per attempt on non-red zone carries when there are eight or more defenders in the box. The metric helps us get a sense of how a running back performed against crowded fronts, whether it be from extra defensive attention or the formations the offenses deploy. As with any stat, but especially this one, context is key and we’ll attempt to dilute that context with each player.

Joe will give you one guess to name the worst running back charted against a stacked box, as defined above.

Correct! It’s Doug Martin at 2.73 yards per carry. Todd Gurley was the second worst at 2.94 yards per carry behind an abysmal offensive line. At least 10 running backs averaged more than 4.2 yards per carry against stacked boxes.

Remember, red zone carries don’t count. So the RB isn’t punished for, say, a 1st-and-goal carry from the 5 yard line.

The loud, judgment-impaired Martin backers often yelled about how teams were stacking fronts against him. So it was unfair, they claimed, to be so hard on Martin because he didn’t have room to run. Well, what will these folks say about how Martin compared to his peers against a stacked box?

Dirk Koetter said repeatedly that Martin was running hard and he backed Martin’s effort through the season. That’s fine, but that never meant Martin was performing well as a running back.

Regardless, clicking through the link above provides quite an education. Joe hopes the NFL dabbles in more of this kind of stuff — the analytics actually used by NFL teams.

109 Responses to “More Troubling Data On Doug Martin”

  1. Nole on Sat- Bucc on Sun Says:

    Don’t matter Joe to many we’ll be perfectly fine just finding a decent RB in the later rounds.

  2. Lord Cornelius Says:

    lol i don’t recall anyone claiming he was having a good year. Not a single comment.

    It’s mostly that people got annoyed that the Joes never wanted to put ANY blame on the O-line for how bad our run game was – even in this article you say “abysmal” in reference to the Rams O-line; as if our line wasn’t struggling.

    This statistic ignores O-line completely.

    Meanwhile; we finished dead last in the entire league in terms of the amount of runs we had where a RB was hit behind the LOS. You gonna tell me it’s Doug Martin’s fault – like he was just standing there waiting to get hit before he started running lol?

    Doug Martin sucked. So did the O-line. 50/50 sh1t storm of ineffectiveness… especially considering every RB we trotted out there had nothing but mediocre performances

  3. Lamarcus Says:

    I’m confused Joe. First u say these geeks don’t know ish about football and now u are using ” their” data to prove to us doug sucked? I don’t believe any one in nfl sucks. They would not be in the nfl at all.

  4. Lamarcus Says:

    And Joe that oline for the bucs didn’t help martin case either. The entire offense went stale the last 9 or so games which cost us a playoff berth. Everywhere I read bashes the oline when trying to believe u that they are good.

  5. Joe Says:

    @Lamarcus – This is NFL data, not PFF.

  6. DB55 Says:

    This statistic ignores O-line completely.
    Plus, no real fb and no blocking TEs which seems to be the difference for the RB who performed better in this stat.

  7. Lord Cornelius Says:

    “This statistic ignores O-line completely.
    Plus, no real fb and no blocking TEs which seems to be the difference for the RB who performed better in this stat.”

    For sure.

    I don’t even really see much significance in this stat at all. All our RBs sucked running against all types of defenses – stacked box or not.

  8. LakeLandBuc Says:

    The fact that annoys me is the fact that we have drafted 2 O-Linemen ( Kenyatta Walker and Dalvin Joseph) in the 1st round during the past 25 seasons. The chances of you finding a Stud Offensive Lineman outside of the 1st round is very rare in the NFL.

  9. Gerald McRuud Says:

    Fun facts:

    Doug Martin had 8 carries for 2 yards in short yardage situations (3rd/4th and short) this year.

    Doug Martin had 12 carries for 0 yards inside the opponent 10 yard line this year.

  10. duthsty rhothdes Says:

    Lakeland Buc, spot on….football is won up front, the bucs need legit OL talent, last year bucs didnt entertain going out and getting alex mack but falcons did, licht thought collins was the man, and sweezy, go draft a #1 or get some FA starting healthy OL, watch jameis game rise and the RB talent grow

  11. vorbs Says:

    Would be interesting to see the data for Quizz Rodger and Peyton Barber to see how much of this is Martin v. the oft berated O-line.

  12. Not there yet Says:

    Stats are for losers if your giving Todd Gurley the bad o line excuse. He sacked last year he just had big runs. He did absolutely nothing against us last year but the agenda was pushed so hard to give the to be LA rams hype going into the next year hype they didn’t earn so he stole rookie awards. Gurley was the worst considering he played all year, Doug who cares he’s someone else’s problem now

  13. LakeLandBuc Says:

    This Franchise and the Fan base don’t place value on the Offensive Line. They would say..ok ..we can plug in a UDFA Donald Penn, Demar Dotson an ex-basketball player with hardly no experience. A UDFA Mike Remmers, a UDFA Leonard Wester, a UDFA Ben Gottschalk, a UDFA Patrick Omameh, A UDFA Garrett Gilkey, UDFA Josh Allen, 5th round pick Caleb Benenoch, 5th round pick Kadeem Edwards, washed up waivers players..O.Neil Cousins, Gosder Cherilus, Anthony Collins. I can go on and on.

  14. Dave Says:

    I never said he was having a good year.
    I said he wasn’t as bad as Joe stated because someone was in the backfield the moment he got the hall on half of his handoffs (so it seemed).
    The O Line did not block nearly as well against the run this year.

  15. JJBucFan Says:

    You can look at statistics all you want. This has been our complaint all year, that the experts are not WATCHING the games, they are only reading summaries and looking at stats. Anyone that watched the game saw that there was no room to run most of this year except for the 49ers game (in science it would be thrown out as an outlier). Playcalling was wayyyyyyyyyyy to predictable, anytime inside the 10, ran it up the middle twice. Honestly, it was the most frustrating part of this season. That and the fact Mike Smith stopped blitzing inexplicably against the Cowboys and Saints in weeks 15 and 16 after 5 straight weeks of aggression and dominance. Forget Aguayo, Jameis overthrows, drop balls (way less than last year), dropped interceptions and stupid penalties, I feel the coaches let us down more than anyone on the team (except Martins drug use). I will forgive Koetter as he is a rookie and I believe Smith just had a brain fart. As a lifelong Buc fan I am excited about our future.

  16. Lord Cornelius Says:

    “LakeLandBuc Says:
    January 11th, 2017 at 11:00 am
    This Franchise and the Fan base don’t place value on the Offensive Line. ”

    I don’t know man I think Light actually likes lineman. In last 3 drafts he’s taken at least one lineman every draft; and spent 2 premium picks on lineman in 2015 in Smith & Marpet. Traded for Logan Mankins and signed JR Sweezy for big $. You don’t do all that unless you really value the line.

    We have a lot of youth on the line – more so than I can ever remember recently:
    Donavon Smith / Ali Marpet / Kevin Pamphile / Caleb Benecoch – all drafted young guys who have shown starter ability and only 1-3 years in starting next year.
    Goddschalk only played a little but held his own I thought.

    Most O-lineman take a pretty long time to develop. Some don’t figure it out till year 4/5. This is why I’m not hitting the panic switch and wanting to spend 3 1st round picks on lineman the next 3 years. It’s not realistic and not necessary for this team to have success. Tons of lines around the league are made up of mid round picks who developed into top starters. And there are lots of 1st round lineman who don’t pan out. Look at the Packers line which is one of the best in the league:

    LT-Bakhtiari – 4th round pick from 2013 draft
    LG-Lane Taylor – undrafted FA from 2013 class
    C-Corey Linsley – 5th round pick from 2014 draft
    RG-TJ Lang – 4th round pick from 2009 draft
    RT-1st round 2010 draft

  17. Pit Says:

    Just Joe trying to get his 7 mil. He knew smthng about Martin before all this happened. He used to post those articles saying how he lost a step or smthng so ppl would jump at each other’s throat. Well played sir well played

  18. LakeLandBuc Says:

    Paul Gruber is the best LT ( and best O-Linemen) this franchise will ever have, and he was the 4th overall pick in 1988. Played 6 seasons before missing a snap, started and played in 183 games. All-Pro Franchise LT, we spent the 4th overall pick on him. But you can rest assure that he was well worth it. 12 seasons holding down the LT position, protecting the QB blindside.People actually think a RB is worth a high draft pick. What will he give us, 4 good seasons at the most? Is it worth it, Hell No.

  19. Ben Says:

    This could also mean the o line gets man handled vs a stacked box as well. Yes the stats are concerning but keep in mind other rbs on this team also didnt fair too well filling in for Martin either. More consistency and some help should help this line. Not saying Martin should stay if there is a legit option in the draft but this team still has a ton of needs.

  20. Jimmy_Guwop Says:

    How can you not care about the metrics for VHIII but these metrics you do?

  21. TheBucsAnthem Says:


    …….you don’t need stats to prove this…..if you’ve watched all season long, you already know.

  22. Kevin Says:

    Not sticking up for martin but our o line sucked this year compared to last. Run blocking was horrible. Even rodgers started to do worse as he got more playing time.

    We do need a bell cow though……a BIG bell cow

  23. Lord Cornelius Says:

    I’ve got more O-line examples to give us perspective on how a line can be developed without needing 2-3 1st round picks spent on it. If there is a stud lineman that we think is an all pro type then I am all for drafting them round 1 this year or any year – I just don’t feel as worried about our O-line as some because we have so much youth and you never know who could make a jump in development next year. All these lines were ranked pretty high (Steelers / Saints ranked top 5 on an article I just read)


    LT – Jason Peters – undrafted 2004
    LG – Allen Barbre – 4th round 2007
    C – Jason Kelce – 6th round 2011
    RG – Brandon Brooks – 3rd round 2012
    RT – Lane Johnson – 1st round 2013


    LT – Alejandro Vilanueva – undrafted 2010
    LG – Ramon Foster – undrafted 2009
    C – Maurkice Pouncey – 1st round 2010
    RG – David Decastro – 1st round 2012
    RT – Marcus Gilbert – 2nd round 2011


    LT – Terron Armstead – 3rd round pick 2013
    LG – Tim Leliot – undrafted 2013
    C – Max Unger – 2nd round 2009
    RG – Andrus Peat – 1st round 2015
    RT – Zach Streif – 7th round 2006

  24. Artemis Rand Says:

    Doug Martin doesn’t “push the pile” like Rodgers does.

    Rodgers has a bit of Earnest Graham in him to be honest.

    Let’s re-sign him and go into camp with him and Barber and Sims.

  25. BigHogHaynes Says:


  26. Joseph Mamma Says:

    Yeah but were those other backs on Molly? See that’s where the advanced statistics break down.

  27. 813bucboi Says:

    @LAKELAND…I agree with your oline statement…..

    @lord c…I think your missing @lakelands point….its not the quantity its the quality…..even with the example you’ve given, you only back up @Lakeland statement….all the teams you’ve listed has at least 1 1st round olineman….we have “0”…..the best oline in the league has 3 1st rounders…list the teams that are in the playoffs now….most if not all have multiple 1st round olineman….GO BUCS!!!!

  28. Nole on Sat- Bucc on Sun Says:

    What a truly dumb statement Lakeland I won’t even waste my time giving you the lengthy list of RBs that have went in the first that have played ten+ seasons. And Artemis If you’re comfortable going into camp with guy off the street, one undrafted free agent an another drafted In The Laters Rounds only to become a tiping specialist then that’s you bro. Me personally I’m more of the mindset you grab a star when you have the opportunity to get a star. Welcome to Tampa Mr. Dalvin.

  29. Nole on Sat- Bucc on Sun Says:

    Gawwdd I wish I could be around to see since of y’all faces in draft night. Y’all can speculate til your next bust but your HC not talking O line. All good chatter revolves around “adding explosive players”. For me its a no brainer reading between the lines of his latest statements.

  30. Buc1987 Says:

    For Sale :

    1 Doug Martin jersey, size XL, excellent condition. $2.49 O.B.O. Free shipping.

  31. Lord Cornelius Says:

    @lord c…I think your missing @lakelands point….its not the quantity its the quality…..even with the example you’ve given, you only back up @Lakeland statement….all the teams you’ve listed has at least 1 1st round olineman….we have “0”…

    Well Donavon Smith was the 34th pick of the draft; so he might as well be considered a borderline 1st.

    But regardless I completely understood his point – but I was trying to explain that many NFL teams roll with more than 50% of their line being undrafted players or mid round picks. So the “quality” of most NFL lines – even the best ones like some I listed – typically only have 2 premium draft picks (1st or 2nd rounders). We have 2 2nd rounders so we’re not far off in terms of investment. And even then; 1st rounders like Lane Johnson & Andreus Peat were supposed to be elite LTs and had to be moved to other positions; so they aren’t even the best lineman on their team despite being the highest picks.

    The point is that O-line isn’t some exact science where you just spend 2-3 1st round picks and they immediately become a dominant line in a few years. Dallas is the only team that has done that and it took them 5 years.

    Seeing comments like “build the wall” suggest that we should go O-line crazy when we really could probably be fine just adding 1-2 talented pieces while we continue to develop the youth.

    And I said that I am all for drafting a lineman round 1 lol… if the value is right. I don’t see any elite O-line prospects this year – maybe Cam Robinson at RT if he falls but that’s it. This is the weakest draft I can remember for O-line based on reading mock drafts. The 2nd best guy I’ve seen according to mocks is Ryan Ramcyk and he’s a DIII player with injury concerns; and in a few mocks those are the only 2 lineman going round 1. Usually there are like 7+ o-line guys with round 1 grades since teams emphasize lines early in the draft.

    I’d rather target O-line in a draft with good O-line. 2015 draft was labeled as deep with o-line and we took advantage.

  32. Kobe Faker Says:

    Koetter the Teflon Clown gets a pass?

    2-not-Joes should be asking hard questions to Koetter why he kept on running him to a awaiting wall when everyone in the whole stadium knew what play was going to be called by our bifocal clown

    You guys ready for forrest gump draft?

    Dont know if he can top the worst nfl draft of 2016, but im sure he will try his best

    stupid is as stupid does

    you guys ready for another year with VJack and Fat dougie? 100%, they will be back.

    Bust JuJU smith shuster will be our #1 pick by Forest Gump

    2016, we drafted singed hair VH3, No where spense, Yippy A, and ankle biter Ryan Smith….

    2017 we need a cornerback, pass rusher, kicker, and a safety

    in 3 years , none of the 2016 draft class will be on the tampa roster

    while our division rivals hit homeruns in their 2016 drafts, our 2016 draft has set us back 2 years

    #bring back jon robinson

  33. Bucsfan4life1973 Says:

    The Dallas game really showed me how bad our Oline is.. They single handedly lost that game for us. I forget the guys name.. But in the 4th quarter there was 1 guy that was un-blockable. They even tried to double team him and he still got through. The dude was on a scout team to start the season.. One great lineman should have been able to shut him down. If that would have happened we would probably be talking about a playoff season.. Instead of how we missed it.

  34. Buc1987 Says:

    Update :

    Kobe Faker Says : ” Someday I’ll reveal who I really am.”

    Kobe Faker Says : “I’m a Jameis fan not a Bucs fan.

    Kobe Faker Says : “Bust JuJU smith shuster will be our”

    Buc1987 Says : “Who’s our?”

    Buc1987 Says : “You’re not a Bucs fan ST..FU… and it’s only January.”

  35. Stpetebucsfan Says:


    As always excellent points. A couple days I went back to check the bust rate for each round. That’s not nearly precise enough.

    I found a site that broke it down by actual selection #..your example about Smith is spot on…and the bust % can rise as much as 20% within the same round.

    IE…there is very, very little difference in that rate between choosing at the end of one round and the beginning of the other….much more difference in choosing at the beginning of a round and the end of the same round.

    Somebody thought looking at Quizz’s numbers might be a better barometer of Doug’s horrible season than comparing him to other team’s RB’s since Quizz and Doug ran behind the SAME OL.

    Quizz…129 attempts 560 yards 4.3 average NO fumbles…

    Doug….144 attempts 421 yards 2.9 average ONE fumble

    Quizz does hang on to the ball slightly better…Doug 7 fumbles 1,012 attempts
    Quizz 2 fumbles 448 attempts
    Those are career stats.

    So there it is boys and girls. Quizz ran for a yard and a half more per carry behind the SAME OL as Doug! That’s pretty damning.

    But it’s the NFL and it gets better.
    Doug – $7,700,000 Quiz – $ 760,000

    So one RB outperformed the other behind the same OL with the same offense by a yard and a half per carry for 1/10 the money!

    Now draw your own conclusions.

  36. AceofAerospace Says:

    Good bye Drug Martin. You had your chance. You blew it. No sympathy. Next!

  37. theodore Says:

    @Joe – This is unfair. Martin didn’t have room to run because teams were stacking defensive fronts against him.

  38. Buc1987 Says:

    Bucsfan4life1….a Doug Martin of 2015 wouldn’t of hurt either but sadly…

    Screw you….


  39. 813bucboi Says:

    @Nole….who’s the rb for the packers?….who’s the rb for the giants?…who’s the rb for the seahawks?….who’s the rb for the pats?….who’s the rb for the Texans?….who’s the rb for atl?….

    the only team that has a first round rb is the cowboys and that’s because they’ve invested a ton in their oline and HAD a fragile ageing qb….the missing piece to their offense was a young healthy rb….

    the list of first round rb bust exceeds those that meet first round expectations….players like:

    trent Richardson
    eddy lacy
    ryan Matthews
    doug martin
    ron dayne
    cedric benson
    reggie bush….

    and that’s just off the top of my head….I didn’t even research anything….I could go on and on….combined with the short life span of a rb I wouldn’t take an rb in the first round unless he was the BPA or the missing piece to our offense…the explosion dirk is referring to is at the wr position….inside and out wide….GO BUCS!!!!

  40. Buc1987 Says:

    theodore…correct poor Drug Martin.

    He’s toast. Really no sense talking about it, but we will.

    Oh yes will. Right Joe?

  41. Buccfan37 Says:

    Dang when a player is relegated to the dog house here you might as well call the dog pound to take him and have him put to sleep.

  42. Lord Cornelius Says:

    “you guys ready for another year with VJack and Fat dougie? 100%, they will be back.”

    100% they won’t be and 100% guarantee you won’t own up to any of your dumb bullsh1t predictions when they fail

    ANd only a dumb4ss like you grades a draft just 1 year later

  43. Buc1987 Says:

    “the explosion dirk is referring to is at the wr position….inside and out wide”

    813bucboi….YUP..I think you’re right. I think a few of us have been talking about that all season. I wanted o-line until I found out it wasn’t a good o-line draft.

    Draft : Corey Davis cause Williams will be gone. Shore up safety or DL in the 2nd. Then look for another o-lineman in the 3rd. After that it’s a crapshoot I could careless.

  44. Lord Cornelius Says:

    Good #s ST Pete – that’s the best stat I’ve seen in support of Martin being terrible compared to our other backs.

    I didn’t realize Rodgers was at 4.2 YPC for the season. That’s not bad at all for an undrafted dude. I think our line isn’t as bad as most perceive (even though it still needs to improve a bunch on the right side)

  45. Lord Cornelius Says:

    for a guy off the street i should have said vs undrafted*

  46. Buc1987 Says:

    Free agency is what we should be talking about first anyways.

    Is there any decent running backs in free agency?

  47. Nole on Sat- Bucc on Sun Says:

    Now that was insightful St.Pete. 813 don’t leave out many of the QBs on that list you gave won superbowls therefore having lost a RB and replacing them with what they have on they’re roster isn’t as tragic ordeal as it was for us in the second season of Jameis Winston because of the play of said QBs. Bank on this whoever wind this years Superbowl will do by in large because of the production of the individual in the backfield. Been that way for many years bro. Don’t see it changing anytime soon. Rodgers had always been great but didn’t win his first chip until the emergence of Stark that season right around playoff time.

  48. Lord Cornelius Says:

    “Is there any decent running backs in free agency?”

    Not really. Maybe Latavius Murray if he isn’t re-signed. I guess Eddie Lacy is a possibility but that guy has been really unreliable.

    Our best bet imo is in the 2nd-4th rounds

  49. DB55 Says:

    But it’s the NFL and it gets better.
    Doug – $7,700,000 Quiz – $ 760,000

    So one RB outperformed the other behind the same OL with the same offense by a yard and a half per carry for 1/10 the money!
    Funny, the same arguement could be made about Clinton McDonald vs GMC but since it GMC I guess that would be stupid, ignorant, sad and pathetic. I mean all the experts agree….

  50. Trubucfan22 Says:

    No where in this stat does it account for the performance by the o line. Say what you want about the o line, but you’re lying to yourself if you say they were a very good group this year. Even if you dont count doug martins stats we are below average as a team running the football.

  51. Nole on Sat- Bucc on Sun Says:

    87 why do y’all continue flip flopping??? Corey Davis because you feel Mike Williams will be gone. Forget about Dalvin Cook because one either he will be long gone or like Blakester you don’t think he will be all that good in the NFL. So confusing.

  52. DB55 Says:


    I think Adrian Peterson is a FA this year. If you still believe he’s good which I do BTW but can’t get over beating his son like that but I digress.

  53. Buc1987 Says:

    Who looks good?

    NOS it’s a long ways until May…

  54. 813bucboi Says:

    @lord says…”Well Donavon Smith was the 34th pick of the draft; so he might as well be considered a borderline 1st”….nawl….he’s a second round pick plain and simple…I wouldn’t mind oline in the first round either….but the “build a wall” statement doesn’t mean draft oline first round for the next 4 years….it means build the quality of linman….we have 2 second rounds, a 5th rounder, 4th rounder and UDFA as our starters….to me that unacceptable when you have a qb of winstons caliber….look at the remaining teams in the playoffs that you didn’t mention like the falcons, chiefs and Texans….

    falcons have 2 1st rounders/2 second rounders and a UDFA….
    chiefs have 1 first, 2 second rounders and 2 6th rounders….
    Texans have 1 first rounder, 2 second rounders and 2 UDFA…

    sign ron leary move marpet to center play pamphile at rt and hope and pray sweezy returns to a productive guard….continue to develop c.benenoch and draft a lineman in the later rounds and we should be set….GO BUCS!!!!

  55. Nole on Sat- Bucc on Sun Says:

    Also if you believe he relegating his assessment to just the WR position you’re fooling yourself bro. This kid has played his ball in the same state he coached professionally, you can’t seriously believe his accolades have went unnoticed. H3ll I dare anyone to show me a more explosive player than Dalvin Cook in the whole state of Florida.

  56. Nole on Sat- Bucc on Sun Says:

    87 in trying to understand why you sent me that list when you know who I want come draft night. The only one I would I even would get giddy about is the main one who won’t hit the market I got to say his name.

  57. Kobe Faker Says:

    What makes you think Fat Dougie will be gone?

    Dougie will be back 100%!

    Our infomercial marketer Gump already tried to ease the suspension and return of martin next year by stating “rehab” and “needs to get healthy” to the stupid tampa sheep….

    seems like its working

    cooking the licht way

  58. Buc1987 Says:

    813…I like your o-line plan. Develop what we got and hope Sweezy is not another Carl Nicks. Hope. Joe’s favorite word. Naaah I still try to find someone in the draft or FA. I still like your plan with Leary sooo… Yeah this works.

    Now go get us a free agent RB so we can go WR in the first!

  59. Trubucfan22 Says:

    And now way am i giving a pass to doug martin. But he seems to get all of the blame even though the run game isnt good even when he is out. It was slightly better but not to the level where it was in 2015. Doug was not good this year, but neither was the o line for all but maybe 2 games.

  60. Buc1987 Says:

    NOS…lol. Yeah he won’t hit the market.

    We’ll see how they go in FA soon enough. It might tell a lot about draft night.

    Kobe…you’re wrong. Fat Druggie we’ll be gone…soon.

  61. Kobe Faker Says:


    dont worry you will get to see Dalvin Cook 2 times every year

    Saints or panthers will grab him

    dont worry we have the FSU kicker

    “The kicker scores the most points” Jason Gump

  62. Nole on Sat- Bucc on Sun Says:

    Call it homerism maybe it is ion know. I just see a future star in DC. Future star in my opinion is>the best eventual #2 WR we may acquire in the draft. We already have WR star. Why not place in our backfield. He will at minimum be as good as LeShean McCoy and Jamal Charles. Both bad as h3ll when healthy.

  63. Nole on Sat- Bucc on Sun Says:

    D@$# kobe you just F@$!ed up my day. Thanks bro😞.

  64. Stpetebucsfan Says:


    I’m glad you’re being a good sport about our little debate…just havin’ fun but dude c’mon you’re taking advantage of an old man who happens to have the time to do the research. I realize most guys here have and don’t have all day to look.

    But really…Funny, the same arguement could be made about Clinton McDonald vs GMC but since it GMC I guess that would be stupid, ignorant, sad and pathetic. I mean all the experts agree….

    You could make that argument DB55 but the stats show just the opposite. These guys are easy to compare because they’ve both been in the league seven years and we have a body of work to examine.

    For everybody else…yeah yeah I get that McDonald is not expected to perform like GMC but let’s follow DB55’s argument to it it’s conclusion.

    GMC 7 years 222 games 42.5 sacks 170 tackles 6 forced fumbles

    Mac 7 years 211 games 14 sacks 139 tackles ZERO forced fumbles

    And so we find that GMC is actually more durable than McDonald…who would have thought that about Mr. Softie?

    Three times as many sacks! 20% more tackles…and six times the forced fumbles

    GMC earned just over 12 million McDonald just over 3 IE GMC 4X McDonald

    So are three times the sacks…20% more tackles and six forced fumbles worth 4X more. Make your argument but I would say at best it’s really close.

    Now again compare that to Doug’s ten times the money for 3/4’s the production.

  65. Nole on Sat- Bucc on Sun Says:

    Ima tell like this I am little worried about carolina. Stewart ain’t getting no younger. If he indeed in up our division you all will regret the day you opposed the idea of acquiring him. You can bank on that.

  66. Mike Johnson Says:

    I can clearly see Joe’s getting people jacked to dump Martin without giving him a 2nd chance. I hope Martin does catch on elsewhere and shines in the face of the Bucs. And I hope we have to face him and he runs..amuck on us!! Eveyman deserves a 2nd chance. I believe a guy walked in sandals centuries ago preaching, Let he among YOU without sin..cast the 1st stone. But then again, All of You’s are perfect right?

  67. Buc1987 Says:

    Mike we don’t make the call. The Bucs do. He’s gone.

  68. Buc1987 Says:

    LOL that’s what the Panthers fan said to me after the last game outside of RJS.

    “Don’t worry you just lost out on Dalvin Cook cause he’s coming to Carolina.”

  69. Nole on Sat- Bucc on Sun Says:

    Anyone know the Panthers site like JBF??? I wanna see if they’re fanbase is opposed to getting Cook because KB is already on that team. That will be nightmare.

  70. Nole on Sat- Bucc on Sun Says:

    I pray he’s wrong 87. I pray he’s wrong.

  71. Stpetebucsfan Says:


    Please…Jesus? Really? All I can do is 🙂

    Nobody is calling for jail time. We’re not advocating marching him down Dale Mabry with fans behind him like Game of Thrones shouting “Shame” “Shame” “Shame”

    We’re simply saying he’s a bust! 2 good years out of five is not success…it’s success 40% of the time and when you mix in a drugs…

    He will walk with over ten million. Why would you feel sorry for him?

  72. Nole on Sat- Bucc on Sun Says:

    I’ve never made a pessimistic statement on this site before. But if we sit and allow this talent to leave the state an end up of all places carolina. We ain’t never beaten them.

  73. Buc1987 Says:


  74. Buccaneer Bonzai Says:

    Clearly, Joe has found his ’cause’ for this draft. Running back.

    I have two words regarding this article:

    Offensive. Line.

  75. Buccaneer Bonzai Says:


    Bust or not, if he gets healthy and agrees to backup money, he’s excellent depth.

  76. LUVMYBUCS Says:

    Like I say every damn year.

    It’s all about Trench Warfare.
    All the rest – is just window dressing.

    Trade back and draft Quenton Nelson, G, Notre Dame

  77. LUVMYBUCS Says:

    • G – Quenton Nelson
    • T – Avery Gennesy

    LT Donovan Smith | Leonard Wester
    LG Kevin Pamphile | Ben Gottschalk
    C Ali Marpet | Evan Smith
    RG *Quenton Nelson | Caleb Benenoch
    RT Demar Dotson | *Avery Gennesy

  78. LUVMYBUCS Says:

    I respect everyone’s opinion bruddah. Just remembering how many times we’ve been down this road in the past. We never truly protected our former Franchise Quarterbacks.

    • Doug Williams
    • Steve Young
    • Vinny Testaverde
    • Trent Dilfer

    Only to see them win with better protection elsewhere.

    It’s almost like we’re chasing our own tails – every time we come to the crossroads – don’t know which way to go. Successful franchises always make sure the fortify the Offensive & defensive lines. Why? Because that’s we’re this game is played

    So If a Blue Chip prospect is there draft’em.

    —->>>Draft G Quenton Nelson

  79. Buc1987 Says:

    “Why would you feel sorry for him?”

    SPBF…Do you have to ask?

  80. LUVMYBUCS Says:


    Doug Williams left Tampa and Joined the Hogs

    (The Hogs)
    • LT -Joe Jacoby
    • LG -Raleigh McKenzie
    • C -Russ Grimm / Jeff Bostic
    • RG -Mark May
    • RT – Jim Lachey

    Steve Young was traded and Joined a very good offensive line in SF

    • LT-Bubba Paris
    • LG-Guy McIntyre
    • C- Jesse Sapolu
    • RG-Bruce Collie
    • RT-Harris Barton

  81. Kobe Faker Says:

    2016 Tampa Bay roster = 2017 Tampa Bay roster

    Our Dumb and Dumber actually likes our 2016 roster

    No big changes in 2017

    #1 Forrest Gump FA acquisition- PUNK Cancer Terelle Pryor

  82. Lord Cornelius Says:

    LUV i like that idea with the trade back. I just don’t want to reach on O-line is all if there are more talented players available at other needs.

    If we really want to go O-line in the draft i’d prefer we trade back multiple times and get as many picks as possible

  83. LUVMYBUCS Says:


    I can respect a trade back.
    But you can never reach for a Blue Chip Prospect w/ All-Pro potential.

    This kid is consistently proficient, and a straight up mauler.
    The young man takes a lot of pride in his craft – U can see that on tape.

  84. LUVMYBUCS Says:


    When U have a moment – check out some of his cut ups

    Quenton Nelson Highlights

  85. LUVMYBUCS Says:

    Hopefully Jon Robinson doesn’t pluck this kid away from us.

  86. WhatdaBUCisthis Says:

    That’s what I have been saying. Draft for trench warfare… Both sides

  87. DB55 Says:

    So are three times the sacks…20% more tackles and six forced fumbles worth 4X more. Make your argument but I would say at best it’s really close.
    Well considering mcdonald is essentially a back up, not a pro bowler, all-pro or captain and a huge percentage of GMC sacks come in the first half I’d say yes.

  88. DB55 Says:

    January 11th, 2017 at 2:36 pm
    Hopefully Jon Robinson doesn’t pluck this kid away from us.
    Like he did Conklin? Damn you John Robinson.

  89. LUVMYBUCS Says:


    Still hurt by that one.
    The kid had perennial All-Pro written all over him.

  90. WhatdaBUCisthis Says:

    To me we should target #WeaponsforWinston in FA. Unless there is a skill player there, a true game changer. I want MONSTERS. We have the best teachers on the roster right now to teach the new guys BUCS warfare… Hawley on O, Ayers on D
    No more being pushed around or being an afterthought. The new BUCS are coming

  91. LUVMYBUCS Says:


    Yes Sirrrr

  92. 813bucboi Says:

    @nole….all the rb’s on that list were 1st round bust….last year, Denver won with who as their rb?…..the year before that the pats won with who as the rb?….

    I guarantee you this, who ever wins the superbowl will do so because they were able to open holes for the rb and protecting their qb…combined with playing good defense….it wont be because they have a 1st round rb….lol…GO BUCS!!!!

  93. 813bucboi Says:

    superbowl winning rbs

    2005-corey dillion-2nd round
    2006-Willie Parker-UDFA
    2007-Dominic Rhodes-UDFA
    2008-ahmad bradshaw-7th/Brandon Jacobs-4TH round
    2009-Willie Parker-UDFA
    2010-Pierre Thomas-UDFA
    2011-James Starks- 6th round
    2012-ahmad bradshaw-7th
    2013-ray rice-1st-(ravens defense was the driving force)
    2014-marshawn lynch-1st-
    2015-CJ Anderson- UDFA

    you don’t need a 1st round pick at rb to win a super bowl….GO BUCS!!!!

  94. ME13 Says:

    Joe kinda off the subject but at the same time is a big part of it!!! I love the NASTY SKINNY JOE Haw brings to our o-line!! But when Josh Allen 1of our practice squad guys was playing center in preseason he was a beast !! Is he not good enough plus strong enough to fix our lil problem at Center ?

  95. USFBUC Says:

    @Mike Johnson – I’m probably not perfect but I’m not dumb enough to use drugs while already being a questionable player. DM had to know he was a 50/50 type of player so for him to use drugs of any variety is a really dumb move.

  96. ME13 Says:

    We have to look ahead!! In the NFC south we need pressure( Bree’s Matty ice Cam) = JPP then to get thur Dallas we need beef= Poe that’s to big steps in the right direction !!! Plus resign W Goldson can play ANYWHERE along the D-line

  97. Stpetebucsfan Says:

    @Buc Bonzai

    I suspect we just have a different view of Dougs talent. I was never blown away.

    He hits the hole hard, can bounce of tacklers but not run over anybody, can sometimes make them miss in the hole but not a great open space runner and he may have been the slowest RB in the league…how many time did he get pulled down from behind.

    He played well, not awesome in two out of five years. This past year an unknown outperformed him dramatically behind the same OL.

    I just believe Quizz was not the only back we could pull off the street to replace Doug Martin quality as our backup. In fact I believe we already have that position filled. Certainly prefer Quizz over Doug and Barber as well. I think most of us believe we’ll draft another RB.

    Speaking of which…I feel your pain NOSBOS. I’m cool with picking Dalvin at 19 but we are certainly the minority eh? I also like the big kid from Texas…a totally different and inferior talent to Dalvin but still able to go into beast mode with Quizz as the complementary back.

  98. USFBUC Says:

    ME13 – The Giants are reportedly going to use the tag on JPP if they can’t get him on a contract.

  99. 813bucboi Says:

    @me13….josh allen played damn well at center….GO BUCS!!!

  100. 813bucboi Says:

    @USF…jpp was my top FA along with ron leary….but Mario Addison is a FA this year….versatile…can play de and dt….great at stuffing the run and setting edge and can produce sacks(9.5 in 2016)…plays violent and nasty….he’s someone licht should keep an eye on….GO BUCS!!!

  101. Lord Cornelius Says:


    I respect your opinion on the draft probably more than anyone – so if you think this dude can be a stud potential all-pro type lineman then let’s get him. He looks great in those cut ups especially in the run game and that was him as a RS freshman so I’d imagine he has huge potential

    Personally I haven’t evaluated much lineman – but I’m excited for the Senior Bowl to see how prospects handle themselves. That’s where Ali Marpet proved he belonged.

    QB + good lines = championship formula for sure

    Hopefully we attack FA in a way that limits our desperate needs in the draft – ideally by grabbing a WR or 2 and DT & re-signing Gholston

  102. WhatdaBUCisthis Says:

    Sign Poe
    Sign Addison
    Sign Pryor
    I’d be… Well you know
    Now you give #3 some speed. I hope Sweezy works out. As I’ve stated before build the line

  103. LUVMYBUCS Says:


    Thank U 4 the compliment brotha
    An I equally respect your prospect evualtion as well
    I also agree with – your views of FA – this year.


    We all want the same thing

    GO BUCS!!

  104. WhatdaBUCisthis Says:

    With do much Glazer loot to spend “if” they wanted too could they pull it off?
    Signing Poe, Pryor, Addison, Berry

  105. Rod Munch Says:

    What was the average yardage until contact? To me it always looked like when Dirk decided he’d run up the middle on first down, which was seemingly 80% of his offensive play calls this year, there was normally someone waiting like 2 yards behind the line of scrimmage to hit Martin. To my eye Martin looked fine, when he had the least bit of a whole he was hitting it hard, but I could certainly be wrong and that stat would tell us. However average per carry doesn’t mean much when if you’re having to break a tackle just to end up at 0. Barry Sanders average per carry plunged to 4.3 his final year, that was really really low for him – I watched him play, Barry Sanders was still Barry Sanders, the difference was he was having to break 3 tackles just to get a 2 yard gain. Martin isn’t anything close to Sanders but I saw a similar thing happening, except Martin isn’t breaking 3 tackles on every play.

    I feel bad for Gurley however, that kid is talented and he’s on an awful offense. Put him in Dallas and suddenly he’s an MVP candidate like Elliot is. BTW put Martin in Dallas and he’s an MVP candidate as well, heck a third of the running backs in the NFL would be MVP candidates in Dallas.

  106. Fake Kobe Hater Says:

    Fake Kobe is a real Bucs fan. It’s just that he thinks he knows better than the pros. He has guaranteed players returning. I guess that means he’s paying them himself or he’s the one making the front office decisions. Bro seriously, are you the biggest douche noodle in here? When you get of high school then maybe you should come back but not until then.

  107. muvlodge Says:

    I at this point am not a supporter and all season liked all of our other RB instead of him, however, it did seem as though he had NO rom to run. I think it couldhave something to do with the fact that he was #2 in the league last year in rushing. Kinda like opposing teams were gonna say, u ain’t gonna run all over us lke you did last year. There were plenty of players left on the field by him though.

  108. muvlodge Says:

    Sorry my phone sucks or my fingers are too fat

  109. wesley Says:

    2014 was the same with Doug, he had nowhere to run. Don’t be blind and dumb Joe.