Geeks Don’t Like Hargreaves

January 5th, 2017
He can ball.

He can ball.

There are two types of football people.

One just looks at spreadsheets and then brands players for life.

Others watch games and are not concerned with attaching every G’damned thing including a jock strap to a number.

The former is the world numberscruncher Mike Clay lives in. He ran data on Bucs rookie cornerback Vernon Hargreaves and didn’t like what the printer spit out.


vs Bucs Vernon Hargreaves
Rtes: 538 (15th)
Targets: 127 (Most)
Receptions: 86 (Most)
Yardage: 1271 (Most)
TD: 6 (tie-6th)

There are several ways to look at this

First, other than pouty Cam Newton, what moron of an NFL quarterback would rather target a veteran Pro Bowler like Brent Grimes over a rookie? Not too damn many, which explains all of Hargreaves’ targets.

Second, anyone who watched Hargreaves starting in preseason can see the mad skills. If he was so rotten, the Bucs easily could have turned to Alterraun Verner or Hey Jude.

Hargreaves will be just fine. And Joe doesn’t know what happened to this world where every friggin’ thing has to have a number slapped to it.

The only numbers Joe gives a damn about are 16 ounces and 36/24/36. Oh yeah, and scoreboard.

26 Responses to “Geeks Don’t Like Hargreaves”

  1. teacherman777 Says:

    This kid and I do mean kid is going to be great.

    He still has a baby face and looks like a teenager out there.

    In 3 years he will be a great CB.

    He played through a lot of pain against New Orleans; the twisted ankle and the knee to the head.

    I got a lotta respect for Vernon Hargreaves III.

    Go Bucs!!

  2. Rrsrq Says:

    VH III will be more reactionary now with this rookie year under his belt. I like the fact he is not afraid of contact. These young Bucs will be consistently better, my guess CB likely one of the most difficult coming in as a rookie

  3. AC Says:

    VHIII will be fine. Anyone who has played the game at any level even flag football knows that CB is the hardest position to play. The QB and WR know what they are doing and the CB has to do his best to guess the route and be in the right position to make a play. Experience at this level in his rookie year will help him out tremendously. Look forward to seeing his growth next season

  4. BuccaneerByBirth Says:

    All this stat tells me is that the other QB’s targeted the rookie. Vernon is gonna be fine. Can’t wait for him to play more loose and attack the ball

  5. ElioT Says:

    Certainley didn’t like him dancing like an a**hole after dropping that pick against the Saints, down two scores with five minutes to go.

    He’s got a long way to go.

  6. Buccaneer Bonzai Says:

    “There are two types of football people.” – J0E

    I disagree. There are three types.

    The third are the people that use a balanced combination of both…and are the most accurate.

  7. Buccaneer Bonzai Says:

    Personally, I think Vernon Hargreaves did okay for his rookie year, but not great. He got outplayed a lot, but again…his rookie year.

    And he doesn’t jump nearly as high as Grimes. He needs to work on that this off season.

  8. Buccaneer Bonzai Says:

    He needs to work with Grimes…but I’m concerned doing so will also expose him to Miko. Not the sort of influence he needs…

  9. martinii Says:

    All those stats and only 6 TD’s. I’m no stat guy but that feels pretty good to me.

  10. Gerald McRuud Says:

    Hargreaves played 1113 snaps as a 21 year old rookie.

    He played more than Pro Bowler Grimes, he played more than Kwon, more than Lavonte, and definitely more than the highest paid player on the team.

    He played two different positions for the #1 third down defense in the league, and he played special teams on top of that.

    Ronde Barber didn’t play regularly until he was 20 games into his career.

    If you’re telling me Hargreaves isn’t a good player, you’re calling Mike Smith an idiot.

  11. Tnew Says:

    Geruld… that may be the best point I hear all day long

  12. mike10 Says:

    The same stat geeks that HATE VH3 are the same ones that LOVE Gerald McCoy… therefore, I’ll stand next to Joe in saying numbers aren’t everything.

  13. bucsfaninchina Says:

    Not sure what your bone is that you’re picking here, Joe. Simple presentation of numbers which has no narrative attached to it. Rather, the numbers aren’t pretty and you’re attaching the narrative that the geeks don’t like him.

    Couldn’t you have gone with the narrative of, look a rookie who is getting a ton of experience and had shown development and grit over the year? Or, wow look at all those targets – QBs must have been afraid to throw at Brent Grimes?

    Facts can be inconvenient sometimes

  14. ndog Says:

    I like the kid but my concerns with him were size and speed, especially in our division. And seeing Cam and KB drooling at the opportunity to throw a jump ball against him in the Red Zone did not quell those concerns, especially since they scored what looked like a little league TD. Just throw it to the big guy on the tiny guy and it is unstoppable, and it will continue to be until he grows, which isn’t likely to happen.

  15. 813bucboi Says:

    VHG is the least of my worries…..he held his own as a rookie…..GO BUCS!!!!

  16. Matthew Says:

    There is 3 types of people:
    1. Meatheads who subscribe to clichés (like fire in their eyes, say things like scoreboard after lucky wins), emotions & always trust their lying eyes even when the facts run counter to their mythology.
    2. Spread sheeters who only trust numbers or overly rely on them ignoring outside factors that can effect stats in a team game.
    3. NFL staff/Journalists/Fans with common sense, logic, and intelligence who utilize film, stats, and various expert insights to come to a rational conclusion when watching or commenting on the game they love.

    It’s not an either/or scenario, there is a third way. Hargreaves had flashes of greatness & he also struggled at times throughout the year…its almost like he was a “rookie” or something.

  17. Kobe Faker Says:

    doesnt have the quickness and speed to handle the good route recievers

    seems slow accelerating from stop and go . gets toasted easily flat footed

    cant play the press coverage at the LOS because he is easily passed

    cooks, cooper, etc any quick slot guy will burn him

    never ever will be a shutdown #1 corner

    last year was a bad year for corners while this year is loaded.

    2017 VH3 is a marked man. QBs will be targeting him nonstop

    we will need a starting corner in FA

  18. Kelvin Says:

    To me he did a great job handling al the attacked he was it I’d just a couple of plays like the ones he made in preseason away from making the QB’s hesitate from pulling the trigger when he is locked on his assignment. He has to attack the ball more often and more aggressively. I am more tha. Satisfied if he comes next year with a little more mean in him. Play with aggression young man!

  19. Stpetebucsfan Says:

    Gerald McRuud….great points!

    The average height of an NFL CB is 5-11
    The average height of an NFL WR is 6-1

    That means it’s normal…or average..for DB’s to go up against taller WR’s. It’s like a newsflash for some here.

    In 2001 four men over 6-1 were drafted as CB’s…three of them were quickly moved only one stuck.

    DB’s over 6 feet are freaks and yes who would love to have one that could actually play. Richard Sherman is 6-3 yet still athletic enough to play the position which is why people are already talking HOF

    As AC posted….The QB and WR know what they are doing and the CB has to do his best to guess the route and be in the right position to make a play.

    The CB’s have to be incredible athletes to match up. VHG is clearly a great athlete and he will do fine. He’ll win some and he’ll lose some…just like Richard Sherman. Will he be as good as Sherman…doubt it…but if he simply gets to Brent Grimes quality we have an excellent CB is probably not an HOFer.

  20. Tony in Los Angeles Says:

    Joe, I’m always shocked by how blinded you are of how bad some of the Bucs players really are. First – you can’t hype that stat geeks like PFF name Evans an all-pro and then toss away anything critical they say.

    2nd – if a receiver posted an 86 catch, 1271 yds, 6 TD season… he’d be going to the Pro Bow and getting a big paydayl. A lot of teams have stud corners even better than Grimes and their second CB’s are NOT giving up stats like that.

    Now, I agree that he can and will improve from his rookie year – but guys do not give up stats like that and then all of a sudden become shutdown pro-bowl players.

    He’s just like Donavan Smith in my book – a below average starter who gets hyped up just because he happens to be the starter at that time. The litmus test is this…

    If Hargreaves wasn’t a Buc and was just another player on another team and the Bucs had the opportunity to choose any young guy who just finished his first season to play CB for them… do you really think they would still pick Hargreaves based on those numbers?

    I do not. He was absolutely toyed with by Kbenji in week 17. And let’s not say it’s because Kbenji is a physical beast, because Kbenji was the same physical beast in ALL the other games he did not put stats up in.

    Hargreaves was bad this year. A liability. Other teams knew it and game-planned for it. He either improves DRASTICALLY in the offseason or the Bucs have a wasted 1st round pick on their hands.

  21. Joe Says:

    He needs to work with Grimes…but I’m concerned doing so will also expose him to Miko. Not the sort of influence he needs…

    No one has been exposed to Miko more than Brent Grimes. Seems like a good idea for Hargreaves to get to know her.

  22. Bucsfanman Says:

    There’s a lot of solid arguments one way or the other. Here’s what I think, he’s a significant upgrade to what was there before AND he’s a rookie. I can live with the growing pains.

  23. Milenkosoe Says:

    You forgot about the Win column joe 😉

  24. Viejo_Sombrero19 Says:

    Again wrong choice Lichtenstein! Coulda had Laremy Tunsil, even Sheldon Rankins might turn into a better player.

  25. AtlBucFanDan Says:

    Only if she’s 5’3″

  26. Holy Facepalm Says:

    Caught that one, ATL, nice!
    Miss me some Sir Mixalot