“But This Guy’s Not Your Typical Rookie”

August 30th, 2013

Hmm, let the speculators unite. Greg Schiano spoke this afternoon and acknowledged Mike Glennon’s rough night last night, but Schiano made sure everyone listening knew he thinks Glennon is a standout player.

“I thought he was solid. I thought he learned, got better,” Schiano said of Glennon’s preseason. “Last night wasn’t his best performance, and I told him, ‘Hey, every once in a while, you’re going to have one of these. Don’t have too many.’ But this guy’s not your typical rookie. That’s, you know, he didn’t have a great night.”

The “not-your-typical-rookie” line could be a window into Schiano’s mindset. The leader of the New Schiano Order is a man of details, so surely praise that high is worth noting.

It’s especially notable when, frankly, Glennon has looked like a typical rookie quarterback through training camp and preseason, though he does appear quite composed when things don’t go well. Also, it’s worth noting that Schiano often characterizes likely starters Akeem Spence and Johnthan Banks as making typical rookie mistakes when talking about their development, as if to say they’re typical rookies despite their strong play.

If Glennon isn’t a typical rookie, then what is he in the coach’s mind? And what does that mean?

Dan Orlovsky’s quotes the other day all of a sudden seem more meaningful.

Joe hopes this is all moot, and that Josh Freeman can beat back the Mike Glennon Mob with a great opening day and consistent play. 

You can hear Schiano’s full audio today below, via WDAE-AM 620.

184 Responses to ““But This Guy’s Not Your Typical Rookie””

  1. Couch Fan Says:

    Nothing to be worried about. It’s rather comical that some have given up on Glennon already before the season even starts but yet heading into year 5 under Josh people are still writing novels of excuses for him. Bias much?

  2. Ricardo Esteban Says:

    he had a bad game…better it be in preseason than regular season.

    my question is why the distaste for a rookie. maybe people see him as a threat to dethrone there love muffin.

  3. Jacko101 Says:

    He’s horrible cut him and bring in Dan. Lol just kidding but the Glennon over Freeman talks should halt for now. Thanks Go Josh Week 1

  4. PRBucFan Says:

    Here fishy fishy fishy fishy…

  5. Jacko101 Says:

    Couch fan Josh doesn’t need excuses. Mike can’t play as good as Josh. Nor can many other QB’s hence there are only 32 Statting QB’s in the NFL.

  6. Couch Fan Says:

    He did seem much different last night opposed to the other 2 games we’ve seen. But it could of very well just been nerves for his very first start. Either way nothing to be worried about unless he gets called into duty.

  7. Buc Fan #238 Says:

    I am afraid our offensive scheme seems to be fractured after watching last nights game and, well, all the pre-season games.

    Something is not right. They better show up next week.

    This is why the regular season should start after 2 pre-season games… this is just a waste of everyone’s time.

  8. Couch Fan Says:

    Couch fan Josh doesn’t need excuses. Mike can’t play as good as Josh. Nor can many other QB’s hence there are only 32 Statting QB’s in the NFL.


    Yea he’s looked great this pre-season right? No need to be worried about that guy. Lol

  9. mpmalloy Says:


  10. bucfanjeff Says:

    “our offensive scheme seems to be fractured ”

    Based on what exactly? The vanilla dive plays, toss sweeps, curl routes? Or was it because we couldn’t execute from our massive film study and game planning during the preseason?

    I’m being a smart a$$ of course, but seriously, what did we really show? It was absolutely the most boring, vanilla pre-season in our team history – or one of most.

  11. PRBucFan Says:

    Yea i agree, IMO all these preseason injuries are unnecessary and should never even take place.

    I believe a “preseason” should take place as far as all 32 teams preparing for the season in their own manner but the NFL needs to do away with these games. So many teams lose players that seriously would impact their competitive ability otherwise during the actual season.

    It’s a shame.

  12. Jim Says:

    The game plans stink. No sense of urgency. Where is the shot-gun? If the line can’t block, use the gun to give the QB more time. Brady & Manning have had a bit of success using it.

    I wonder if the coaching staff ever looked at what Freeman’s QB rating is from the shot-gun VS under center? I doubt it!

  13. Walter Says:

    Lol are the people that have talked smack about Freeman all offseason really getting upset about people talking trash about Glennon now?? XD oh the irony

  14. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    I think what Schiano is talking about is Glennon’s intelligence and his abiltiy to learn the “complicated” Bucs offense.
    Everyone can have a bad night….especially a rookie….even a “non typical” rookie.
    Schiano has a basis of comparison….Josh Freeman’s first year under Sullivan & Glennon’s. Also, Sullivan has a great deal of input here along with McNulty….they probably feel the same about Glennon….so why shouldn’t we?

  15. Splengo Says:

    I wish Glennon had played better because we’re now forced to carry 3 QBs on the roster – a spot that could have been used for another TE, DE, or WR. He was never a threat to Freeman.

  16. chef paul Says:

    This is a little off topic but did anybody see fox football daily yesterday Scott fujita said he’s spoken with enough players to feel they just aren’t buying in to Schiano. Now maybe he talked to Bennet wright or talib. But it kind of freaked me out

  17. Andrew 1 Says:


    it could mean that Glennon is mature for his age. watched some of his interviews and came away feeling that he was a very mature guy.

  18. Scotty in Fat Antonio Says:

    Hmmm…I guess there were no dropped balls again last night and are OL blocked extremely well last night for Glennon to have the stat line that he had. Not to mention are non-existent running game.

  19. Andrew 1 Says:

    @chef paul

    look at it this way, if anyone on this team is not buying into Schiano, you can be sure that they wont be here very long. those players that are not buying in are doing themselves and this team a disservice and I dont think Schiano is going to just sit by and watch that happen.

  20. RBellBuc Says:

    Well the good thing is, from what we’ve seen so far, is if Freeman flames out at the end again, and from what we’ve learned about Glennon, we know what to expect, and hopefully he won’t be much of a drop off from the good Josh.

    I have to admit, I don’t have a clue at what to expect. All I can do now is hope for the best and prepare for the worst. The wait game sucks…

  21. Buddha Says:

    Oh poor guys not buying in to Schiano. Maybe we can still get Raheem to salvage the season. lol

    Don’t believe everything you here. These guys want jobs and if they don’t buy in…see ya.

  22. chef paul Says:

    Andrew, I think youre right. I’ve suspected that’s the main reason we got rid of them. I just hope its a few and far between thing and not a lot of them. Idk. I’m trying to stay calm but this preseason is deflating.

  23. RBellBuc Says:

    Here’s a shout out from Anaconda, Montana. Go Bucs! Go JoeBucsFan.com!

  24. Andrew 1 Says:

    you can bet that even if half of the players on our team are a detriment to this organization Schiano will either do everything he can to straighten them out or cut them from the team. he strikes me as a guy who would take it that far if need be.

  25. BuccaneerBonzai Says:

    Chris Simms.

    That’s Mike Glennon. I’ve seen nothing to convince me otherwise thus far.

    The difference with Josh is that Freeman has put in the time and work and actually has a track record. He’s earned props to some degree.

    Glennon has done nothing yet. Maybe come next year he might earn some props, but as of right now he can’t even stamd in the Ashadom of Freeman.

    I would rather have Luke McCown as a backup than Glennon or Dan-o at this point.

  26. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    How many “high character” guys have we gotten rid of?

    Briscoe, Winslow, Talib, TJax, & to some degree, Blount & yes Price….(incident with Barron)
    You just don’t know what sort of attitude these guys display when noone is listening or watching.
    I suspect Bowers has a touch of that & Schiano is riding him because of it. Schiano is a make or break guy. You buy in or you are gone!!!

  27. LUVMYBUCS Says:

    I hear you, and all of you guys valid points.

    My only real concern is that if any, of our safeties get nicked-up…. for any period of time. The guys that are backing them up –are not very serviceable (Its just my opinion). see:Tandy / Black

    Bakeror ask Cinny about Mayo..(Dom & the rest of the staff-Good Luck)

    Remember-how we felt last year with Nicks & Joseph. Just a concern..No biggie right?

  28. Pewter_Power Says:

    The more I learn about Schiano the less I believe he will succeed in the NFL. It is amazing how far my opinion of him and this team in general has fallen in just one month’s time.

  29. Architek Says:

    I’m only upset that we are really freaking out about game 4 of the preseason. I seem to remember that we looked as terrible preseason game 4 last year as well.

    Concerned yes doomed no.

    Free ? Man will be the starter and Glennon the rook will backup accordingly. I expect a up and down season filled with peaks and valleys.

  30. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    @Pewter Power

    I disagree completely…..Schiano is learning and has been willing to change somewhat and admit mistakes….I am seeing a great deal of individual leadership pop up and the usually spells good leadership at the top.
    Lavonte David, Gerald McCoy, Vincent Jackso, Darrelle Revis, Dashon Goldson, Donald Penn & Davin Joseph….all helping with rookies and being positive with the goals of the team.
    I sure hope I am right about this but I think Schiano is building a team that we can be very proud of.

  31. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Tampabaybucfan

    I think your right about Bowers. it seems a bit unwilling and as a result is now feeling the heat from Schiano. if he doesn’t change his attitude I dont expect him to be with us very long.

  32. Andrew 1 Says:

    * he seems a bit unwilling

  33. Buc Fan #238 Says:

    I love everything about Schiano…. except the most important thing at the moment… which is getting the team to play competitively.

    Just like some of you clowns liked Raheem… at the end of the day, if you can’t win in the NFL then we will need to find someone who actually can get the job done… including Schiano.

  34. GRIF4FREESUX Says:

    Freeman was ranked 33rd best QB in a league that has 32 teams,Naaa nothing to worrie about.LOL…

  35. Buc1987 Says:

    GRIF4FREESUX…ranked by whom?

  36. Buc1987 Says:

    @Pewter Bullion…can you please do another youtube video of the fabulous Mike Glennon vs Freeman comparison? Only this time use last night’s footage included.

  37. chef paul Says:

    tampabaybucfan, damn man. You always get me riled up and excited about this team! Are you a minister cuz you make me believe!

  38. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    @ Andrew

    I think the word for Bowers is “slack”….& I think there may have been a bit of that will some other players we let go. Schiano is a lot about effort. I think he can tell when a player is giving his best.
    And we can’t forget about the assistant coaches….they all have an input on a player’s ability
    I think Schiano hates a guy with great talent who is slack.
    That was probably part of the probliem we had with Talib & Blount. He probably told Blechec tghat they may improve under his leadership.

  39. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    @ Andrew

    I think the word for Bowers is “slack”….& I think there may have been a bit of that will some other players we let go. Schiano is a lot about effort. I think he can tell when a player is giving his best.
    And we can’t forget about the assistant coaches….they all have an input on a player’s ability
    I think Schiano hates a guy with great talent who is slack.
    That was probably part of the probliem he had with Talib & Blount. He probably told Belichick that they may improve under his leadership…and Belechick agreed with him.

  40. Buc1987 Says:

    Am I seeing Glennon apologists now? Are they going to come out of the woodwork? Where are you Glennon fanatics? Or should I say Glennon fantasy-natics. Bunch of jerk offs!

    Tampabaybucfan…my wife and mother both said the same thing you said. Glennon reminds them of Chris Simms. I said yeah maybe, but without the giraffe-like neck.

  41. Buc1987 Says:

    oops sorry Bonzai said the Chris Simms thingy!

  42. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    @ Buc 1987

    Mother knows best!!!

  43. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    @ Chef Paul

    I am probably the old man in this group….Was a season ticket holder in 1976….Bucs were the laughing stock of the NFL….and then just 3 years later I sat in the rain at Tampa Stadium and watched us lose 9-0 to the LA Rams in the NFC Championship….
    So…I know things can get better. A true fan can complain….can be worried…can be pissed….but a true fan never never loses hope!!!

  44. tonytwocents Says:

    R.I.P. Mike Glennon Mobsters.. change your usernames and circle jerk to Glennons picture in private.

    R.I.P. to that one Orlovesky fan. (but Joe mentioned that he might go into coaching, so its all good)

    to the Real fans, its 0-0. a fresh start. lets back this team up! GO BUCS!

  45. Andrew 1 Says:

    thats a good word for it slack. or slacker.

  46. BFFL Says:

    this team has horrible depth. They were completely out matched by the redskin’s superior depth. now I know why the starters played with little enthusiasm this preseason…because they were not worried of loosing their job.

  47. tonytwocents Says:

    @ BFFL, I agree that we lack depth, and are pretty top-heavy. I’m concerned about that too.

    but theres an energy that builds when the season starts and the bullets are real, thats when a true player gets sick of riding the bench, seeing other players’ highlights on BSPN, they get hungry, work harder in practice, and if their number is called, they light it up…..hopefully.

  48. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    All of this discussion about Glennon is empty without the expert Shaun King “weighing” in!!!

    “Shaun King, one of two Buc Quarterbacks that lost a NFC Championship Game when his defense gave up 11 or fewer points.”
    The other Buc QB was…you guessed it…Doug Williams in that game in 1979.

  49. Splengo Says:

    Another high character guy just got whacked – Danny Noble.

  50. PRBucFan Says:

    Did he look bad? Yes

    But he’s a rookie, not in his fifth year.

    I won’t give up on the guy just yet, seems premature and hypocritical especially for anyone that still supports Freeman to give up on Glennon, OUR second string QB, during his first preseason ever after his first start ever in the NFL.

    Afterall your still supporting a QB going into his fifth year who has plenty of inconsistencies himself, remember that before you down the rookie too badly jaja

  51. PRBucFan Says:

    It’s up to Josh Freeman where he goes from here.

    It’s his job to lose, but understand he STILL can lose it if he Free falls at any point this year regardless of how badly Glennon looked last night.

    Football God’s hopefully will smile upon us this season and we won’t see bad Free but don’t think anything has changed.

    His seat is still hot and this season is still his make it or break it year.

  52. Walter Says:

    Where the hell is Robert? He bet me $250 that Big Bird was going to lead the Bucs to the playoffs! Funny, he disappeared around the same time Glennon started sucki… I mean playing.

  53. Walter Says:


    I would hope Freeman was plenty motivated to improve BEFORE they drafted Glennon. He wants the big money too ya know.

  54. Buc1987 Says:

    Walter…I think you missed out on an easy 250.

  55. Buc1987 Says:

    I don’t think Freeman has to look over his shoulder at all this season. Even if he goes “six flags”. It’s going to take an injury to Freeman(crossing my fingers) for Glennon start at all this season. I say they let him play out his contract and see where they go from there and with that I mean all 16 games. If they pick high enough and Freeman bombs they WILL draft a QB in the 1st round. Glennon will not be the answer. I’m not being hard on him, he’s a rookie. I’m being hard on the idiots that thought he had enough talent to unseat Freeman this season.

  56. Walter Says:


    Yeah, I don’t think Glennon is even a factor in the Bucs future right now.

    If Freeman plays well, we resign him.

    If Freeman plays horribly and we draft high, we select a better QB in the 1st round.

    Unfortunately for Glennon, his future reads “Backup QB.”

  57. tim Says:

    @buc1987 I had to youtube Freeman Vs Glennon on youtube. What a great video lol. If you’re a bucs fan. You better hope Glennon isnt the answer. at least this year.

  58. tonytwocents Says:

    first cut needs to be Butch Davis. either come out from the shadows and coach this D yourself, or GTFO.

    the way he’s scamming UNC by coaching but not really coaching, thats just bad karma. cut your ties with UNC, go all in with this team, or Get The Fu(k Outta Tampa.

  59. Barry Says:

    I know someone got crush on Freeman. You didn’t mention Freeman’s rookie mistakes. Freeman’s avg at best. Bucs can still win with him but he’s no Franchise.

  60. PRBucFan Says:

    Coach Schiano won’t hesitate to bench freeman he plays poorly and we go on a long losing streak this season.

    We can go ahead and bet on that one, ill send ya money on pay pal myself haha. 😀

    In the end it’s only Schiano’s view of Glennon that matters.

    Right now I don’t trust Freeman, he may just yet prove me wrong.
    Glennon hasn’t even had a single season under his belt for me to say one way or another if he’ll be the future answer if Freeman falters. But as of now for THIS season of Free falters he will be the replacement this year. Either way all I know is that I will be relieved to have our answer about Free after this season whether he does or doesn’t end up our guy. Ill be relieved to be past this.

  61. tonytwocents Says:

    Glennon’s a smart kid (didnt he get a Masters in 4 years while playing as the starting QB?), he may turn out to be good in 2-3 years, then again we might be in WW3 with Russia & Syria in 2-3 years. so I’m only lookin at 2013, and I don’t want to hear about Glennon for the rest of the year.

  62. PRBucFan Says:

    If not of

  63. lightningbuc Says:

    Yeah, Glennon has no chance of EVER playing here in Tampa. It’s not as if we have a QB in our midst who has thrown more interceptions in the past two seasons than any other QB in the NFL….. Oh wait, we do!

  64. Walter Says:


    Oh, I’m not saying he won’t play here because Freeman is good, I’m saying he won’t ever be the full-time starting QB because he’s inferior to other options that will be available to us. (1st Round QB next year)

    Why settle for Big Bird when you can draft a superior prospect?


    Glennon may get to play this year, but he will never be our Franchise QB. Sure, he’s a smart guy, that doesn’t mean he’s going to be a good QB. He might end up being one of those guys that becomes a good coach, teaching others with superior talent.

  65. Sharon Says:

    Robert is here. Except I have to post under different names due to the censors/jbf love fest censors. And the hold my post for like 20 minutes if they even post them at all. It’s like CNN censors. Just not worth the time to write something up only to have it not posted. It’s cool though been getting my news elsewhere. See if they post this.

  66. Raphael Says:

    What happened to the great white hope last night ?

  67. Buc1987 Says:

    If Buc fans did not see the replay of last nights game. Or even watched it yet. Then they may as well not even weigh in on the subject of Glennon over Freeman. Go ahead and watch the replay if you can stomach it.
    We had robert in here saying stuff about Glennon like Walter mentioned even before he took his 1st preseason snap. People were so convinced that Glennon was going to unseat Freeman even before preseason started.

    Hey Sharon where are you now?

    Sharon Says:
    August 28th, 2013 at 1:07 pm
    19 more days……..
    Till Glennon takes over! Go Tampa!

  68. MadMax Says:

    Yeah, Glennon just wasnt convincing last night….like I said though, we needed that just to see where he was. Heres hoping good Josh shows up more than bad Josh.

    Maybe we’ll find another QB on the waiver wire to try…..it wont hurt.

  69. Raphael Says:

    And oh btw Freeman will our QB for the next 5 yrs , get used to it !

  70. MadMax Says:

    Raphael, why are you bringing race into this? Take that crap and shove it dude!

  71. MadMax Says:

    Hows your “hope and change” president doing so far?

  72. Sharon Says:

    Ricardo Esteban is robert is Sharon. I’m here. Just can’t post

  73. Raphael Says:

    @ buc1987. …. Lmao ! That’s aŵesome …..back up those files so nothing happens to them.

  74. Buc1987 Says:

    “Oh, I’m not saying he won’t play here because Freeman is good, I’m saying he won’t ever be the full-time starting QB because he’s inferior to other options that will be available to us. (1st Round QB next year)”

    “Why settle for Big Bird when you can draft a superior prospect?”

    Thanks for clarifying it for me, because I agree with you. 100%

  75. Raphael Says:

    Madmax …I would say he is doing pretty well, we are not losing 800,000 jobs per month now and oh btw the stock market is higher than its ever been…the best part is my bank account is over flowing and Maui was awesome in the spring……

  76. MadMax Says:

    All because the feds keep pumping out the $$.

  77. Walter Says:


    Lol great white hope. Seriously though, people went all crazy and started screaming for this guy, only to watch him suck even worse than Freeman in the preseason. It’s hilarious! Reminded me of the days when Gradkowski was our “savior.” And McCown….. And Rattay…… And Simms…… And Griese…… And Josh Johnson……… And Leftwich……… XD

  78. Walter Says:


    You know what they say about great minds.

  79. Raphael Says:

    @ Walter …yep exactly , remember when we were winless and leftwich was our Qb and a rookie qb named Freeman came in and saved us from a winless season with a win against GB…..

    The anti freeman stuff is hilarious to me. And I do think Glennon will be good but it takes time….

  80. Buc1987 Says:

    Freeman is 1/2 white anyways. Just like our socialist president.

  81. PRBucFan Says:

    I just don’t have my handy crystal ball available to be able to make a statement like Glennon will never be able to be a franchise QB in this league.

    Once I find it, I’ll get back to you.

    And people crucifying Glennon for his performance last night shouldn’t be quick to forget that Freeman looked every bit just as bad this preseason. Just to be fair lol. If your gonna knock one you better knock the other. Or rather if you can tell ones future by it, you should be able to tell the others future by the same means right? Lol smh

  82. Buc1987 Says:

    Please no more politics or this could get ugly.

  83. Raphael Says:

    Buc1987 …shhh. Don’t tell them that. Lol.

    This president is waaay. Better than the last one .

  84. PRBucFan Says:

    And he had some solid work this preseason, last night does not cancel out that fact either.

    4 games were played, not just last night’s lol.

  85. Morgan Says:

    Okay, preseason is over. Time to move away from discussion about our backup QB. Glennon-talk is as interesting and as important as reading/talking about the price of a large beer at RayJay on Sunday afternoons.

    It still seems to me that JBF is trying to hype a backup QB and create some sort of QB-controversy when there really is none.

    Talking about backups is boring as hell. Lets move on –

  86. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    We’ve had some pretty good QBs that played poorly for us.
    Doug Williams won a Superbowl MVP with the Redskins…Steve Young couldn’t get it done for us.
    The only time our QBs were winners is when we gave them a great defense.
    If we had had one of those great defenses last year….Josh Freeman would have looked better than any QB in our history.
    I’m not saying he is great….not yet anyway…but if our defense steps up, he can get it done. And…that’s what I expect to happen this year.

  87. MadMax Says:

    Shh yourself Raphael…..heed his warning …..lol.

  88. Walter Says:


    Well, let him develope. Until then, he’s not even worth talking about.

    Can’t even beat out Dan Orlovsky lol

  89. Raphael Says:

    Tampabaybucfan…..Right on bro …exactly

  90. Raphael Says:

    Madmax. I dont heed the wife and I ain’t gonna heed anybody here.

  91. Buc1987 Says:

    “Buc1987 …shhh. Don’t tell them that. Lol. ”

    “This president is waaay. Better than the last one.”

    Ummm no comment. Unless you want me to pull out my other documents that I have saved on Obama. I can assure it’s pretty lengthy, like Glennon’s neck.

    This is a Buc website though.

  92. PRBucFan Says:

    That’s what I am saying you guys, let the man develop lol.

  93. Buc1987 Says:

    “And people crucifying Glennon for his performance last night”

    Who’s crucifying him?

  94. Buc1987 Says:

    I’m just saying pretty much what I’ve been saying all summer. Which is I’ll take my chances with six flags over a rookie in the regular season.

  95. Walter Says:


    I am still of the opinion that Glennon will not be the future of this Franchise, regardless of Freeman’s play. There will be better options than Glennon next year. I honestly think Dominick brought him here to be a backup.

  96. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    If we can’t get a pass rush going…we need to put Glennon & Dotson on the DLine & let them bat down some passes!!!

  97. Buc1987 Says:

    The replays on right now if you want to watch it.

  98. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    I’d really like to hear from the Buc QB expert…..

    We need Shaun King to “WEIGH IN” on this subject.

    “Shaun King, one of two Buc Quarterbacks that lost a NFC Championship Game when his defense gave up 11 or fewer points.”

  99. Buc1987 Says:

    “We need Shaun King to “WEIGH IN” on this subject.”

    No we don’t.

  100. Mark Sanchez's Hairband Says:

    Its not matter of IF Josh Freeman will suck but WHEN and how badly.

    #5 is an average QB. Nothing more.

  101. Buc1987 Says:

    Why did rookie Kaepernick and rookie Wilson get to start for their teams? NFL Network has a commercial about it. Because they tore it up in preseason. That’s why.

  102. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    Buc 1987

    Add RG3 to that list.

    Because they can run….

    And…when Freeman runs….he is pretty good.

  103. Buc1987 Says:

    Mark Sanchez’s Hairband Says:

    August 30th, 2013 at 7:54 pm
    Its not matter of IF Josh Freeman will suck but WHEN and how badly.

    #5 is an average QB. Nothing more

    You say that as if he did not have a great stretch during last season. As if he’s going to suck the entire year.

  104. Buc1987 Says:

    Yah but I think the skins expected rgIII to start.

  105. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    Buc 1987

    Right about that….but you notice they drafted a backup just in case…..


  106. NY Bucs fan Says:

    Mike is not a starting QB in the NFL. If free has a bad year they Draft a QB in the first round. Mike is not the answer and never will be

  107. SteveK Says:

    Freeman needs to win us some games this year. Stats are pretty, but all that matters is getting the “W”.

    I don’t care about how, just find a way to win. Good QBs, playoff QBs, make enough plays (consistently) to take their team to the playoffs.

    Anything can happen!

  108. Walter Says:

    ^^^^^^^^^^ this guy knows what’s up

    Mike Glennon = Jimmy Clausen

  109. Buc1987 Says:

    Yes Steve and great RB’s can carry a QB like Ponder into the playoffs.

  110. Buc1987 Says:

    Stats or not here are some QB’s that had QB ratings lower than Josh last season.

    Ponder 81.2
    Stafford 79.8
    Luck 76.5
    Vick 78.1
    Tannehill 76.1

  111. Buc1987 Says:

    and Stafford got PAID!!!

  112. SteveK Says:


    Adrian Peterson was passed on by the Bucs. Sad.

  113. Buc1987 Says:

    I’m not saying Josh is better than any of them. Just saying he had higher QB rating then them. We all know he has to play consistent the whole season and not just 3/4 of it. I’m also saying he is far from an average QB like my new copy and paste victim Mark Sanchez’s Hairband says.

  114. Buc1987 Says:

    Yes true, but who else passed on A.P.? Besides we’ve got Dougie and he’s younger than A.P.

  115. SteveK Says:

    The Vikings also have Jared Allen.

    He is a MONSTER.

    We need a pass rusher like that. When is JPP a FA?

  116. lightningbuc Says:

    Far from average? You got that right. Which is why Jaworski, who knows a bit more than posters on here about Qb’s and the NFL has Freeman ranked in the lower half of the QBs in the league – basically meaning he is BELOW average.

  117. Buc1987 Says:

    lightningbuc …I don’t care what Jaworski says. Freeman’s QB rating says differently.

  118. Buc1987 Says:

    Jaworski says Freeman is below average and Gruden says the Bucs are going to win the NFC South. Does any of that really matter. If Gruden is right then how in hell are we going to do it with a below avg QB? Who’s right and who’s wrong does it really matter which analysts says what? I guess it does to some people, just not me.

  119. Buc1987 Says:

    I’ve got 2 off topic questions for peeps. Since Koenan is our punter and he handles most of the kickoffs, has there ever been a punter in the league that did all 3 things? Kickoff, Punt, and FG’s.

    Second off topic : The horse collar rule is a rule that I hate, never liked it. The reason why is because has anyone ever actually been hurt from a horse collar tackle? I mean I’ve never seen it. The flag usually comes out and the player gets up and he’s just fine and ready for the next play.

  120. MadMax Says:

    Joe probably hit this already….I just found it:


  121. PRBucFan Says:

    1987, there’s plenty of people crucifying him, I know your not honestly trying to ask me that like I am making that up or something?

    All you have to do is use your eyes and look at the threads from last night to today and see numerous posts deeming the kid all kinds if things based on that performance. It’s laughable. I like you dude, but don’t treat me like I’m I can’t comprehend what’s been said bro.

  122. Buc1987 Says:

    PRBucFan…no man I kind of meant as in I’m not cruxifying him, Tampabaybucfan, Walter and Raphael was not doing it either. Like the people that were discussing him at the time with you on the thread.

  123. Mean D Says:

    Look how the total fool Buc1987 repeatedly says he is not anti Glennon then repeatedly bashes Glennon. This idiot wants to have Freeman’s baby. So let me get this straight. Excuse after excuse after excuse for Freeman in his 5th year. Yet Glennon gets his very 1st preseason start, plays poorly, and he will never be a franchise QB? It speaks volumes that Buc1987 admitted he watches the games with his mommy and wifey. P*ss. I thought you promised us all you were leaving this site forever. Yeah, your word means nothing either.

  124. MadMax Says:

    The horse collar controls the entire top half and easy to target. They can still grab the shirt but it wont be as controlling. Thats why the first thing to take off in any fight is your shirt, it can be used against you.

    Basically, I akin the horse collar to the face mask. Its arguable, but its there.

  125. Buc1987 Says:

    Guess your stuck with me Mean D. You always seem to say such idiotic things on threads. It’s like you can’t escape your own stupidity. Oh well perhaps one day.

    BTW Freeman has only played 3 and 1/2 yrs and one of those years we went 10-6 BECAUSE of him a-hole.

  126. GRIF4FREESUX Says:

    @raphael,I think that your racist remarks on this site are becoming quite spic tacular.

  127. Buc1987 Says:

    Mean D…are you ever going to say anything on this site that shows you have any football knowledge?
    I’ve been here nearly 2 months and I have yet to see it on any of your posts. I am ecstatic that I bother you, nothing makes me more happier on this site to watch you drop down foolish comment after foolish comment.

    I know it might be a difficult word for you…ecstatic. So I’ll give you the definition.

    Ecstatic: feeling or expressing overwhelming happiness or joyful excitement.

    If you ever go to a game sometime. Look around the stadium the place is filled with couples that go together.You obviously don’t go or you would know that. Then again you don’t know much do you?

  128. PRBucFan Says:

    I see now

  129. Buc1987 Says:

    and I just scrolled up to check my posts. Where is there anything that I said that can be taken as “bashing” Glennon?

    Mean D:
    More idiotic banter from the JoeBucsFan’s village idiot. Congrats man keep up the good work!

  130. Bobby Says:

    Man Raphael, I now realize why you are so sold on Freeman. You have the same feeling for the guy in the white house and they both still suck in their 5th year but Freeman is waaaayyyyyyyyy better.

  131. lightningbuc Says:

    So, Buc1987, the Bucs went 10-6 because of Freeman, yet the seasons he had a losing record were cuz of the defense? You want your cake, and eat it too!

  132. Buc1987 Says:

    Bobby… I’m not totally sold on Freeman, but I do think he can become a good QB and I can’t stand Obama. Saying I can’t stand him is an understatement actually. I really don’t think Raphael takes race into his liking of Freeman just because he used the term great white hope. So what your trying to say is Raphael only likes Freeman because he’s black? I mean spit out, drop it down. Is that what your saying Bobby?

  133. Walter Says:

    Oooooooooh, racism!! 😀 this thread is awesome!!

    Apparently, Glennon is just as controversial a figure in Tampa as Freeman is lol

  134. GRIF4FREESUX Says:

    @1987 yeah that’s the primary reason he likes obama,there I’LL say it as##ole!

  135. Buc1987 Says:

    lightningbuc…most certainly not. 2011 there was many problems with the team other than Freeman though. Including Blounts fumbles and the whole team quitting on Raheem, not just Freeman. Are you trying to blame Freeman for the 2011 Bucs or was it Raheem and Greg Olson? Freeman did look much improved in 2012 for a long stretch of the season last year, and then he fell apart. The defense sucked the whole season though, not just during a small stretch of it.

  136. lightningbuc Says:

    Since Buc1987 likes to copy and paste what others have posted in the past, I decided to do the same:

    Buc1987 Says:
    August 20th, 2013 at 11:12 am
    Why I will no longer blog with you so-called Buc fans anymore.
    Last night I went around and checked out blogs from other teams sites. Just to compare their fans to ours.
    I went by their records last year so I picked 4 teams that had pretty dismal records in 2012.
    I wanted to check how pissed off they were at their team, their GM’s or certain players.

    Raiders 4-12 – A little complaining mostly back and forth to eachother not much bad stuff said about the team at all.
    Eagles 4-12 – Very very little complaining at all.
    The Jaguars 2-14 – None at all. A little worry over Gabbert, but virtually no complaining at all.
    The Lions 4-12- Just as bad as you people are in here. Mostly complaining about Schwartz though, not much else.

    Now not to direct you off of this WONDERFUL site, but if you get a chance google a few of them sometime.
    So maybe you can see just how ridiculous some of you are towards MY Bucs. Some of you are not only ridiculous, but make me disgusted that you call yourselves fans. I think the REAL fans know who I’m talking about. I’m not going to single anyone out, they do a good job of it all by themselves. Just google some of those other teams and compare like I did, it’s a real eye opener.

    I was so glad when I found JBF. Now I wish I never found it. You so-called fans have opened my eyes to something I wish I never knew. Oh how bad I’d love to call out the names of like 9 of you that don’t deserve this team. It’s okay though as I probably will never see ANY of you attend a game anyways, unless the team goes 10-6 or 11-5 someday. I’m typing all this as reminder to the REAL fans that are still here. Look out for these people, these people they are not hard to find. Don’t let them bring you down on OUR team. Peace out and Junkie I look forward to tailgating with ya, a REAL fan.

  137. Buc1987 Says:

    lightningbuc…all that is irrelevant isn’t it? Because I’m still here. I am glad you reposted it though. It gives me a great perspective as to why I’m still here, because this site is filled with so many negative thinking fans. Someone has to counter all the BS thinking that goes on within these negative minds on this site.

  138. Buc1987 Says:

    “Some of you are not only ridiculous, but make me disgusted that you call yourselves fans. I think the REAL fans know who I’m talking about. I’m not going to single anyone out, they do a good job of it all by themselves.”

    That’s one of my favorite parts.

  139. Buc1987 Says:

    You should really try to find the one that I said the other day in here. That with so many negative fans on JBF, I now know why the stadium never sells out.

    I liked that one too.

  140. Eric Says:

    Herd is getting nervous, with an actual team to play against soon.

    No more bragging about practice or the fabulous offseason.

    Happens every year. Reality can be a cold dish.

  141. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    Where is the Buc Realist tonight?

    He would have trashed Dominick 12-15 times by now….

    I want everyone to know I’m not one of those who calls the Buc Realist an idiot.

  142. Buc1987 Says:

    Eric…good thing the reality is the Jets.

  143. PRBucFan Says:

    “quite spic tacular.”

    Your not clever…

  144. GRIF4FREESUX Says:

    @1987,the fact that some of us that don’t share the same views as you disgusts you really breaks all of our hearts,Iknow it does mine and it will probably be the reason i’ll be up all night,NOT,that would be your sister!

  145. Eric Says:


    I think the jets are 9-1 against us.

    We may get a win but it sure isn’t in the bag. In New York? Not our best venue over the years. Have we ever won a game in that stadium?

    Lou Albano is a good defensive coordinator. We shall see soon enough.

  146. Buc1987 Says:


    August 30th, 2013 at 9:46 pm
    @raphael,I think that your racist remarks on this site are becoming quite spic tacular.

    PRBucFan….yeah I know he comes full circle in one sentence calling Raphael a racist and then becomes one himself in the end of the sentence. And with a name like GRIF4FREESUX…could it be that he hates Freeman because Freeman is black? Possibly.

  147. Buc1987 Says:

    Eric …yeah and it’s good thing it’s not too cold up there yet though. I’m not big on 9-1 type thinking though. That record reflects entirely different rosters at different points in time. Kind of like the Bucs have never won a game when it’s 40 degrees or lower. Gruden shattered that thinking. Basically past records against other teams are meaningless to me. It really has no baring on the current season.

  148. Buc1987 Says:

    So I guess the Bucs are facing Geno? No word on it, but it seems like it might be. Damn and I wanted Sanchez.

  149. GRIF4FREESUX Says:

    @buc1987,no it’s not a racist thing with gosh he just sucks.example:I would much rather have josh johnson (black guy) back and starting 4 us over freeman.He had a much better football I.Q. AND was coached by jim harbough in college at San Diego where he had a 78% yeah that’s right 78% completion percentage throughout his college career their.He was never given enough of a chance here.And If I have anything to say weather you feel that it is racially biased or not I will say it anyway because unlike you I will speak my mind just as politically incorrect as I choose.

  150. Walter Says:


    Geno threw 3 INTs in one half of a game, so I’m cool with him being the starter for the Jets lol

    I WAS hoping Revis would get to pick off his ex-QB though

  151. Walter Says:


    Josh Johnson????? Ugh!! DX flashbacks of him collapsing in 2009, I think I might throw up! *hurl*

  152. Eric Says:

    We haven’t beat the jets anywhere since 1984. I think that was the game McKay let them score so Wilder could try to break the NFL record for yards from scrimmage. Mckay’s last game maybe?

    Our only win in New York was in 1997 vs. Giants.

    Probably doesn’t mean that much but damn!

  153. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    All this chatter about race….I’m confused….

    Josh is part white & part black….it doesn’t matter because he still is a Free man….

  154. Stanglassman Says:

    Pats cut: TE Jake Ballard, TE Daniel Fells

  155. Buc1987 Says:


    “because unlike you I will speak my mind just as politically incorrect as I choose.”

    LOL That’s comical is there anyone on JBF that thinks I don’t speak my mind? I was not the one that brought race into it was I? Um that was you.

    As for the rest of you seriously do I not speak my mind? That’s absolutely comical man.

    Ha ha ha ha you question my football intelligence and you bring up Josh Johnson?
    Where exatly is Josh Johnson these days since we let him go. Surely he must have lit up the NFL afterwards.

  156. HolyBuc Says:

    The worst loss to the Jets is when they brought Testicles back out of retirement and beat us.

  157. Buc1987 Says:

    Josh Johnsons career stats :

    Career NFL statistics as of 2012
    Pass attempts 177
    Pass completions 96
    Percentage 54.2
    TD–INT 5-10
    Passing yards 1,042
    QB Rating 57.7

    And then there was this guy on JBF with a name like GRIF4FREESUX saying Josh Johnson was better than Josh Freeman.

  158. Buc1987 Says:

    Josh Johnson College years : His best game of the season came against Valparaiso, when he threw for a school-record seven touchdowns (all coming in the first half). He also had five touchdowns and 375 yards against Morehead State in the Pioneer Football League Championship victory.

    I guess those perenial powerhouses Valparaiso and Morehead State were no match for the mighty Josh Johnson.

  159. Buc1987 Says:

    August 28th, 2013 at 5:20 pm

    I don’t know where everyone is getting 4 dropped passes on freeman,I only saw 2,guess it’s just the freemanites trying to help out their boyfriend.We all know that v.jax. and mike will are just fine no worries there,free(wo)man on the other hand is terrible,nothing more than a serviceable backup at best.You will all see the truth soon.Then it’s time to man up and eat crow or run and hide like little freemanites.W’ell definitely be talking facts after the bye week.

    Perhaps after the bye week the Bucs will make a trade for Josh Johnson a serviceable backup on every team he’s played for.

  160. MadMax Says:

    Where is Josh Johnson? Dude, you havent been watching Hard Knocks? I friggin love that show!

    Dont get me wrong, people will hate on him, but watch those episodes. He’s doing pretty good….he’s not your typical pocket passer….but he has some spunk!

  161. Buc1987 Says:

    MadMax…now you know why I used to attack people on here. It’s not like I throw the first punch all the time. They try and hit me too. I try not to single people out anymore and I’m doing a good job of it. Just so long as know one pokes a stick at me first. Man I got hit from all sides. It was a 3 pronged attack in here. Mean D…then GRIF4FREESUX …then lightningbuc. What they fail to realize is that I just laugh at them behind this keyboard. I really do.

  162. MadMax Says:

    Be more like me….state your case…they state their case…its opinion against opinion 😉

  163. MadMax Says:

    Just like I saw “Dave” make a comment last night about “losers on here talking to strangers” ….”get some real friends losers”….

    I didnt respond immediately because I was too busy watching Clowney suck wind in the Gamecocks opener plus had more important things going on.

    Nobody responded and that was his last commenet to this hour, today 🙂

  164. Andrew 1 Says:

    “its opinion against opinion”

    exactly. at the same time though we are all bucs fans so there is no need for anyone to bash any of our players or coaches. objective criticism- sure, bashing- not ok. not saying that is you MadMax, just speaking in general. if your on our time, ill be rooting for you to succeed, no matter who the player is.

  165. Andrew 1 Says:

    people like “Dave” like to pass judgement. I ask you who is he to judge.

  166. Buc1987 Says:

    “exactly. at the same time though we are all bucs fans so there is no need for anyone to bash any of our players or coaches”

    Well Andrew I have a file in my documents that’s filled with all kinds of that nonsense. If I’m right about the season. People are going to get their own words shoved down their throats. If I’m wrong. I’ll call myself an idiot. If I’m right then everyone will still be happy though, because that means our team just won the division. That’s when I crack open this file and drop them on their heads. People are still saying crap. I copy and paste about 5-6 comments a day.

  167. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Buc1987

    lol thats cool. if you want to hold people accountable for what they say then more power to you. Im sure you know by now though that the haters are never going to go away, even if you prove them wrong. they are going to say what they are going to say and just try not to let it get to you.

  168. MadMax Says:

    You seriously trip me out with your tactics 1987…..but you are going to be you. Just understand theres consequences with such a stance…..wont come from me though 🙂 We’ve drawn our lines….and its funny how we’re both pulling for the same team and the same outcome all along 🙂

    But whats your thoughts on Schiano? I just dont feel it with this cat. Felt it last year, but not so much this preseason.

  169. Eric Says:

    Hey buc1987,

    Knock yourself out but they already have an archives section here where you can look up previous posts…..

  170. Chris Says:

    I think some people need to layoff the cut glennon comments. Morons in here seem to forget he’s a rookie. He’s shown the ability to play in this league but is not ready to play. He could be ready mid year who knows but my guess is its going to take dismal play or injury to josh in order for that to happen.

    The more I look into this regime and offensive scheme and defensive scheme the more I think this could be a disaster. The offense is too old school. Ogeltree sucks and have no 3rd option. You have a questionable qb trying to learn the verticle system still. You have no TEs. No back up plan at OG behind too injury riddled guys not 100%. Carimi shows he sucks (Dom living off busts).

    Defensively we have no depth on the line. If McCoy goes down who can play his position? Who can rotate in and play effectively? Two unproven des in Clayborn and bowers both coming off injuries. Bowers isn’t even starting. Then the depth behind them are rookies. Foster seems to be better suited at slb. No depth at the lb position.

    We blitz at the wrong times (see Washington and NYG game) and run too many stunts that never work. Can’t get to the qb.

    Now ask yourself, is this a division winning team right now? The buc fan in me thinks YES THEY CAN but too many IF THEY DO THIS and change.

    The outside perspective from me, thinks 6-10. I hope that guy is wrong.

  171. the_buc_realist Says:

    Did Glennon play bad? yes, Has JFro-6-pak ever had a worse game? yes. and race is not why I don’t care for JFRO. Its that he cannot lead a team to the playoffs.

    and please don’t tease buc1987 too much this early. I would like him to still post on here to at least game 8.

  172. chris Says:

    Buc1987 Says:
    August 31st, 2013 at 1:05 am
    “exactly. at the same time though we are all bucs fans so there is no need for anyone to bash any of our players or coaches”

    Well Andrew I have a file in my documents that’s filled with all kinds of that nonsense. If I’m right about the season. People are going to get their own words shoved down their throats. If I’m wrong. I’ll call myself an idiot. If I’m right then everyone will still be happy though, because that means our team just won the division. That’s when I crack open this file and drop them on their heads. People are still saying crap. I copy and paste about 5-6 comments a day.

    Be my guest. You act as if we are doubting the bucs. We’re giving you non delusional opinions and evaluations. Like I’ve stated many times, this bucs team is an enigma to me as a whole. They can either win 11 games or lose 11 games. There really is many “what if’s ” on this roster.

  173. Couch Fan Says:

    Wow it will be easy to make these cuts. The first one should be Mike Glennon.


    ^^This is a comment from Bucfan1987 after Glennons very first pre-season start. Bucfan claims to be a “real fan” and says he’s an optimist. It’s laughable after 4 miserable years under a crappy Freeman who’s worst game FAR eclipses Glennons worst game, that he advocates cutting Glennon…. then sits here and calls peolple more names for not agreeing with him….

    It’s quite clear sir that you are a bias jack ass who simply just likes to run his mouth.

  174. Couch Fan Says:

    Oh and it’s not just Bucfan1987, there are quite a few others, who have been defending Freeman all off-season, who have somehow made up there minds after 1 pre-season game that Glennon is awful and wont amount to anything in the league.

    It’s quite comical how these people claim to be such good fans and eternal optimists but seem to have given up on the rookie so quickly…. I ask again, bias much? Lol

    Funny how the haters seem to be more realistic about things while the “true fans” seem to be the ones hating…

  175. chris Says:


    I agree with you. But to me, looking at this team from an outside point of view, I’m starting to wonder what the heck are they doing?Yeah it’s nice Schiano got high recognition from Coach Bellichik, but remember, Bellichek’s coaching tree has also failed when running teams.

    I personally like the toughness and type of football player regime and personality schiano has brought to this team. However, the schemes seem too old school/college football approach.

    I hate to be THAT GUY, but Shaun King, love him or hate him, makes some valid points. Yeah it’s only pre-season, but the Bucs looked absolutely pathetic this preseason. No depth. Same old crap[ with the stunts. The man up stairs in the offense not making moves/lack of quality talent evaluation. High investments in positions that have failed.

    Evaluating last years draft, who takes a safety who’s suspect in coverage in the top 10 of the draft? I shook my head at that one because there were better players on the board. Chandler Jones, Michael Brockers. I had Mark Barron as a 2nd round pick in 2012. Is Schiano that old school and not adjusting to todays passing league? Drafting Barron, an in the box type safety who struggles in pass coverage, taking him 7th overall when you could have improved your pass rush or interior line?

    Then we go ahead and overspend on Dashon Goldson, who was exposed come playoff time where GB, ATL, and Baltimore repeatedly torched his side of the ball field. And SF had an elite front 7. We don’t have that here in Tampa.

  176. Oil Derrick Brooks Says:

    Damn, this place is entertaining.

  177. Bucnjim Says:

    Schiano took a 4-12 team that was in complete disarray and turned them into a semi respectable 7-9. That is a three game improvement! Now with this team another three game improvement will make them 10-6. Might not win the division this year, but I’d like to see the Bucs with a wild card spot. Bucs, Falcons & Saints could all make it to the post season.

  178. lightningbuc Says:

    I think Buc1987 is having a tailgate with BucJunkie today! The other members of the “True Buc Fan Mob”, Raphael and West Coast Buc Fan, are attending as well, leaving all of us “haters” out in the cold.

  179. Bobby Says:

    @Chris….did it ever occur to you that Schiano was running a generic boring offense and defense on purpose? The whole intent of preseason is to evaluate your players…not win games or expose your offensive and defensive game plan to other teams. Yes, we looked terrible but I’m not as concerned as I would be had we been running a more exotic game plan. It was as vanilla as I’ve ever seen and I believe the intent was to try and keep everyone as healthy as possible while getting game film on all the players to evaluate. I don’t expect anything like what we saw in preseason when we play the Jets next week.

  180. Chris Says:


    You did not understand anything from my analysis. It’s based off the scheme from last years which is the exact same thing. If everything is vanilla , how come other teams look sharp and we don’t? You think schiano is smarter than the other successful coaches in the nfl?

  181. Buc1987 Says:

    Andrew 1…there entitled to the moronic opinions for sure. Yes me saying cut Glennon was just to get the morons riled up. Did it work? I think so. I’m going to say this about Glennon though. He was playing up against 3rd stringers and these morons want to throw him out there against the big boys. Somehow they can’t look past the whole he was not a 1st rounder thing for a reason. The Bucs could have drafted a QB in the 5th round and they still would clamor for that guy over Josh. I seriously do think Orlovsky should be 2nd string, that’s if he makes the roster. Which going by what we’ve seen. We better have a better backup plan then Glennon.

    Let them bitch and moan about me all they want. It looks like they are stuck with me, just like I’m stuck with them. It’s not like they are going to be sitting next to me at the games or anything. I’ve already introduced myself to my section of season tix holders, and they all like me a lot. I can tell they like the enthusiasm, some of them have already told me so. If I want someone to smash my enthusiasm with a sledge hammer. I only have to enter the comment sections of JBF. Some of the stuff they say really does disgust me, but they are entitled to their opinions right. So let them have them while they still can, and if I’m right. I’ll cram their opinions down their throats, and some of their comments are such BS. It’s not going to taste too good on the way down. That’s okay I’ll put some sugar on top just to make it sweeter.

    Once again I’ll help some people with the big words.

    Enthusiasm : intense and eager enjoyment, interest, or approval.

  182. BucoBruce Says:

    Shut UP! all of you, Tampa will win the Super Bowl this year!

  183. Oil Derrick Brooks Says:

    Megalomania – a delusional mental disorder that is marked by feelings of personal omnipotence and grandeur

  184. Bobby Says:

    NO ONE and I mean NO ONE came out with as vanilla an offense as we did this preseason. Last year, regular season, we had a good game plan. You don’t have a RB that rushes for 1400 yards and a QB that passes for over 4000 with a vanilla offense. That’s revisionist history on your part.