Josh Freeman Still Learning The Scheme

June 3rd, 2013

Much has been made of the faux quarterback controversy between Josh Freeman and rookie third-round pick Mike Glennon in recent weeks. As Joe has stated before, there is no controversy. If Freeman, in the last year of his contract, stinks up the joint, he’s gone. No controversy.

Well, Woody Cummings of The Tampa Tribune appeared on Sunday Sports Extra with WFLA-TV raconteur Dan Lucas last night to talk Bucs, and Cummings said he believes Freeman is still learning offensive coordinator Mike Sullivan’s system.

“This is the first time – it really started last year – that Josh Freeman has not been in a West Coast system,” Cummings explained. “That’s a big difference for a guy who went through college playing basically a West Coast scheme. Obviously had had a West Coast scheme here at first. Now with Mike Sullivan, it’s a completely different approach. Josh Freeman, I think, even said it that he is making that adjustment and I think that’s where people forget he’s still a young kid, not just learning the league but under a completely new system, something completely different than he has already played before. I think it suits his skill set a little better because it is a downfield passing game and it really takes advantage of his strong arm.

“It’s a different dynamic and even he admits he still needs time to learn that scheme and that’s why theses OTAs and minicamp are so important for him.

“The Bucs have told him to just go out there and relax and play the game, don’t think that you have to go out there and save us. He’s the key guy, obviously, but if you are down by 10 points, it’s not all on him, just get the ball in people’s hands, move the ball and manage the offense and make the plays you can make, don’t try to make the plays you can’t. That’s what he’s been guilty of. When he has struggled in the past, that’s what he is guilty of, trying to do too much. That’s what they are trying for him to do.”

Well, don’t look now, but that learning curve for Freeman is rapidly approaching a brick wall. He has maybe less than six months to get his offense in gear or to manage it enough to get to meaningful January games.

Joe also is on record not demanding rolling out the guillotine at One Buc Palace if the Bucs don’t make the playoffs (so long as it’s not another losing record). The NFC is as tough as Joe has seen in since Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs, Bill Parcells and Mike Ditka roamed the sidelines. There are going to be good teams watching the playoffs on TV, and the Bucs’ schedule is not a cakewalk.

If Freeman doesn’t master Sullivan’s offense by the time, say, Halloween comes around, his next residence may have a different zip code.

114 Responses to “Josh Freeman Still Learning The Scheme”

  1. lightningbuc Says:

    “Joe also is on record not demanding rolling out the guillotine at One Buc Palace if the Bucs don’t make the playoffs”

    Already lowering expectations for the alleged “rock star”. To read many of the posts on here, the Bucs should have 15 or so Pro Bowlers, so not sure how you could miss the playoffs with a roster like that.

  2. Jrock Says:

    Who’s better than Freeman is? Surely not Glennon, maybe a #1 draft pick? If we let him go, where is our franchise at then?

    He’s making a ton of money right now, Freeman in the top 10 QB’s as far as paychecks are concerned, but he doesn’t play like one. Cut his pay, resign him. Other teams would love to have Josh on their team

  3. Joe Says:

    @lightningbuc – Joe’s not lowering expectations, simply dealing in reality in June. All Joe’s saying is that given all factors — in June — Joe’s not going to call for heads to roll simply because the Bucs miss the playoffs, for that reason and that reason only. … Joe surely didn’t call for Chucky’s head after the collapse of 2008 and a 9-7 finish.

    This team potentially could be 8-8 and be in a situation where Joe would endorse the return of both Freeman and the coaching staff. The opposite could be true as well. Again, it’s June.

  4. Keith Says:

    If Freeman plays like he did last season, which is probably who he is, then this team should go 9-7 in 2013. Hopefully we’ll be better, but that’s who we are unless one of the young studs emerges as a Hall of Fame caliber, Martin, David, Banks, Barron, etc.

  5. Meh Says:

    I’m all for the guillotine if we miss the playoffs again. I am tired of the excuses. We need to make the playoffs or heads need to start rolling, starting with Dom.

    Another season without playoffs is absolutely unacceptable to me, and it should be for you as well, Joe.

  6. flmike Says:

    Well, there it is, in a nut shell. Freeman has been in 3 different systems in 4 years in the NFL. First was the Jagodzinski version of the WCO, then the cobbled together version of Gruden/Olsen WCO hybrid and now the Sullivan/Giants ECO hybrid. Wanna ruin a good young QB quickly, put him in multiple schemes in his first few years in the league and watch the ruination, ask Jason Campbell about that. The best QBs have been in their systems since they were drafted, look at Rivers in SD, no matter what HC, the basic scheme hasn’t changed, look at Eli, Brees (just like Rivers, his basic scheme didn’t change when he moved form from SD to NO). Peyton took his system to Denver, and not even Elway is trying to change that. Emerse Freeman in the system for another season and with his skill set he will be better than Eli is in the ame basic system.

  7. bucfanjeff Says:

    Freeman isn’t going anywhere. He will be a Buccaneer.

  8. the_buc_realist Says:

    reality is if the bucs were still running the west coast that JFro would still be learning the offense.

    also, we should know by now that ” lowering the bar ” is the only constant theme in the Pop-star’s reign.

  9. Bobby Says:


    Well…finally a positive post from you!

  10. BigSombrero Says:

    Freeman better start showing signs of getting the scheme down pat this year. With the amount of turnover coaching wise in the NFL, learning new systems is common place. Sully wont be around forever and he’ll have to learn yet another system. Not an excuse.

  11. Vic66 Says:

    It is time for Josh to grow up and be responsible for his own actions. He’s no longer just 24, or hasn’t had the same coordinator more than one year and he should know the play book by now.

  12. BuccaneerBonzai Says:

    This article seems out of place for Woody Cummings. It had too much positive and he did not try to get the team in trouble with the NFL. That said,

    “The Bucs have told him (Freeman) to just go out there and relax and play the game, don’t think that you have to go out there and save us.”

    This is a big first, because every single game Freeman has played to date he has had the pressure of having to save the team because of the poor play of others…which resulted in him playing poorly at times.

    I suspect we will hear Freeman state at some point this season that he is having more fun than he’s had in years.

    It also means that maybe they are going to let him use his legs more too, if they are letting him play his way.

  13. TimBucTwo@OneBucPalace Says:


    With that attitude and unyielding expectation, if you were to ever own your own team, you would never win. Especially if you kept firing your staff while they were in their infancy in arguably the best division in football.

  14. PewterPirate Says:

    @flmike the reason the most successful QBs have been in the same system for so long is because they are successful. It’s also why their HCs don’t change. Freeman obviously hasn’t been successful enough to keep his schemes and HCs around. The NFL is a league of change anyways, if a QB is bad then the staff gets the axe but if a QB is good then his coordinators get promoted and things change anyways. I’m tired of this excuse.

  15. Mike J Says:

    If the Bucs don’t make the play-offs this year, heads should roll. Enough time has been granted the current regime.

  16. TrueBlue Says:

    The current regime has only had one year. Not enough to conclude anything. Three years or it’s a waste of effort. Constantly starting over is a recipe for failure.

  17. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    ^^^Well said.^^^

  18. T in Orlando Says:

    @ JRock

    “Cut his pay, resign him. Other teams would love to have Josh on their team”

    These statements totally contradict one another, if there are other teams that would love to have Josh, why would he agree to a pay cut and then an extension?

    I know he’s making a lot of money in his base pay this year, but that’s the case for the last year of a rookie deal for every player taken in the first round prior to 2011. I don’t know if it’s top 10 (I believe top 10 money these days is in the $14-$16 mil/yr, I thought Josh was around $10 mil for this year).

    You’re right he needs to play better this year, but I don’t think you re-sign him just because there are no better options, he would be too expensive if that’s the driving force of the signing. If he earns on the playing field, then by all means, the team should re-sign him.

    For all those that say heads should roll if no playoffs, what if the team goes 10-6, dramatically improved D (into top half of league), and more competent play in the Offense (let’s say J5 throws for 3500+ yds, 25+ TDs, and around 14 Ints, and no games with more than 2 picks), however the team does NOT make the playoffs, should heads still roll?

    It’s possible to envision a scenario where San Fran, Seattle, New Orleans and Atlanta all go at least 11-5, in which case the two NFC Wild Card Teams are coming from those 4 teams. It would even be possible to imagine the Bucs going 11-5 as well, then missing the playoffs on the tie-breakers.

    Joe’s right, it shouldn’t be playoffs or bust for this team, nor any of the key personnel (GM, HC nor QB). The NFC is just too stacked, from top to bottom. There’s not a single team in the NFC that you can look at right now, and say, “I just can’t see any way this team makes the playoffs”, the closest would be Arizona. The AFC, I could name the Jets, Browns, Raiders, and Jaguars.

    There must be marked improvement, predominately in an improved Defense, an Offense with no more than 1 meltdown game, and most importantly wins. I think 10-6, regardless of playoffs, will afford Dominick and Schiano at least one more year. Freeman’s fate will be determined by his play.

  19. Cody Says:

    Mark my words “ThiS WiLL Be FReeMaNs FiNesT SeaSon”…

    Think about it, this kid had to learn 3 offensive schemes in 4 years (that’s not easy my friends). Yet, he went out last season Green as Hell (in a new offense) and managed to break every major offensive record in franchise history for a QB. Nobody talks about that, nobody wants to focus on the positive things Freeman did only the negative.

    This kid hasn’t even hit his prime yet; it’ll be sad to watch us lose another QB to free-agency only to watch them move on and win big somewhere else. Doug Williams, Steve Young, and Trent Dilfer were all crucified in Tampa yet managed to win a Super Bowls after leaving.

    All Im sayin is, Bucs fans need to stop nitpicking and be more appreciative for what we have in Josh Freeman cause trust me the grass isn’t always greener; it just looks that way.

  20. Couch Fan Says:

    Injuries will also be a contributing factor. And we all know the Bucs have horrible luck when it comes to injuries. I wont mention any names not to jinx us but if we lose a couple certain people we will be in a seriously bad situation.

  21. Tiny tim Says:

    Some of you guys are funny. It is well documented that it took Eli 5 years to master this offensive system which ironically is the same year he won his first superbowl. Now you want Josh to have mastered it in a year and a half? New Yorkers wanted to run both Eli and Coughlin out of town. Funny how things work out. I bet you can’t find one Giant fan to confess they wanted Eli gone just like you won’ find any buc fan to say they wanted Josh gone if he has a good year this year. You guys are too funny.

  22. bucsguy Says:

    If jfree plays exactly the same as last year they will retain him, the only way ge doesn’t resign is if he plays horribly even an avg season gets him an extension.

  23. BucFan20 Says:

    Freeman throwing in the dirt. Over throwing and under throwing the receiver have nothing to do with the system. Being able to read the defense has nothing to do with the system.

  24. Traew Says:

    Our problems have been defense.

    If we have an above average defense and Freeman could just manage the game, hit a few big throws, and avoid mistakes – we will be fine.

  25. Cody Says:

    Lets be realistic…Freeman had 4000+ yds passing 27 TD’s & 17 Int’s; Brett Farve’s numbers looked like this basically every year but he wasn’t crucified like Freeman he was glorified…

    Yes Freemans comp% (55%) could have been higher but to his defense, he was in a new offense. He threw a lot of balls away & I noticed that there were numerous times last season were WR’s simply misread the defense and ran the wrong route resulting in int’s.

    Bottom line, with the exception of about 3 games or so I thought he played pretty darn good for a 24 year old QB in a new offense. I’m excited to see what he can do once he and his receivers have a better understanding of the offense…

  26. flmike Says:

    Eli Manning was not successful in his first 4 seasons, the NY fans wanted him run out of town. How can you blame Freeman for Morris’ and Olsen’s ineptitude. I believe the clock got restarted for Freeman when Schinao was hired, it’s the only the way to be fair to the kid.

  27. Couch Fan Says:

    More excuses….

    There will be no excuses after this year.

  28. BuccaneerBonzai Says:

    BucFan20 Says:
    “Freeman throwing in the dirt. Over throwing and under throwing the receiver have nothing to do with the system. Being able to read the defense has nothing to do with the system.”

    Even the top QBs do those things from time to time. And they have had the time to mature at their positions.

    Josh Freeman did improve last year. His pocket presence was much better. He connected on more throws.

    Anytime you have a QB throwing for over 4000 yards, you are going to have a high amount of incompletions as well.

  29. stevek Says:

    No excuses, playoffs in 2013 or Dominick and Freeman could both ge axed.

    If the roster fails to prove to be playoff worthy, off with Dom’s head!

    If the QB position fails to establish consistency, off with Freeman’s head.

    The time is now!

    No more rebuild!

    Lead to the playoffs, follow to the playoffs, or GET OUT OF THE WAY.

  30. stevek Says:


    Freeman is out of time. He needs to DO IT NOW.

    What about all of the rookies coming into the league and taking their teams to the playoffs?

    Freeman has had 50 plus NFL starts, he is who is record say he is.

  31. stevek Says:


    Freeman had a 4-2 record in 2011, before letting the bottom fall out and losing 10 straight.

    Freeman had a 6-4 start last year, only to forget how to play football and another 5 game losing streak.

    Freeman doesn’t have another year beyond this. It is now or never.

    We would be better served to go another direction, then to settle for the mediocrity and regression Freeman has had since 2010.

    Everyone wants to hand out excuses, and Freeman has NONE anymore.

  32. stevek Says:

    Enough with the Eli Manning comparisons already.

    Eli has outldueled Tom Brady twice for a championship.

    Eli plays in NY, where Freeman’s inconsistent play would lead to Mark Sanchez type cheering.

    Eli is leaps and bounds better than Josh.

  33. WestCoastBucsFan Says:


    So? If the Bucs go 10-6 and miss the playoffs, its off with everyone’s head? Even if Freeman has a stellar season? I just need to know where you stand because, if so, I won’t be able to take you seriously.

  34. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Also, the Manning comparisons are accurate. Eli had EXACTLY as many Super Bowls in his first four years as Freeman has in his first four. THAT is the comparison being made here. (Not their current, respective talent levels.) A lot of “fans” wanted Eli out of town for the same reasons that a lot of “fans” here want Josh gone already.

  35. McBuc Says:

    Cody…Agreed 100%

  36. stevek Says:

    WestCoastBucsFan Says:
    June 3rd, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    So? If the Bucs go 10-6 and miss the playoffs, its off with everyone’s head? Even if Freeman has a stellar season? I just need to know where you stand because, if so, I won’t be able to take you seriously.

    ^^^^^Sounds like the 2010 season all over again: 10 wins, no playoffs, and a damn good QB playing for us.

    Barring injury, this team should be a playoff team.

    Mark Dominick is doing better, and I believe his seat is safe.

    Freeman is trying to earn a HUGE CONTRACT, and if he plans on doing so he will have to establish consistency and guide this team to the playoffs.

    If we go 10-6 and miss the playoffs, I will want to see what happened in those “6” games? Did Freeman lead us to another 5 game losing streak, demonstrating amnesia for the NFL QB position in doing so?

    Freeman’s season, last year, was pretty good, but should have been a whole lot better. His play really tailed off.

    I expect for Freeman not to look like a pitcher tipping his pitches, at any point this year.

    If we take a look around the league, it is changing, new QBs are coming right out of college and doing big things. It begs to wonder, is Freeman mentally tough enough to develop into a playoff QB?

  37. PewterPirate Says:

    Freeman is all out of excuses this year. He is playing in the same offense, has the same coaches, has the same players (now including his 2 Pro Bowl guards), and has 3 and a half years of starting experience. All of the stars should be aligning for him this year. No one is saying he can’t have some inconsistent moments this year because that’s natural but we can’t have any slides like we have been known to have the last few years.

    Freeman broke some team records in a passing league on a team with a less than stellar QB history in a time when defenses are really becoming a side note. That’s all great for him but when it mattered he didn’t pick the team up like QB’s have to do from time to time. In fact, he was at his most inconsisent when we needed him most. I like Freeman but he needs to put it all together this year and take this team to the playoffs.

  38. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    “What about all of the rookies coming into the league and taking their teams to the playoffs?”

    Why not take a look at some of those defenses and running games for those rookies? (Sans Andrew Luck and RG3, you know, the first and second overall pick last year.) Now compare them to the defenses Freeman has been with and you might paint yourself a pretty clear picture of how a rookie QB can “look” like they are, ” . . . coming into the league and taking their teams to the playoffs?”

  39. McBuc Says:

    Why is the defense not being abole to stop a gentle breez an excuse? When does a reason become an excuse anyway. The super bowl champs and Tampa have almost the same point per game average, but the raven’s have a defense that stops other teams from scoring at will. I am sick of hearing people say “no more excuses” when they want to know what happened. If the defense held up just a little better, no one would care that a guy through 27 tds to 17 ints. Football is a team sport, it takes everyone to make it happen.

  40. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    It will be hilarious to see Freeman put up VERY similar numbers next season BUT with a vastly improved defense and everyone will talk about how great he is. Ever heard the phrase, “A chain is only as strong as its weakest link”? Well, last year the weakest link was the defense and specifically the pass defense.

  41. WestCoastBucsFan Says:


    You never answered my question. Do heads roll if the Bucs are 10-6 next season with no playoffs. (For this arguments sake, lets say there were NO losing streaks greater than two AND no loss by more than 8 points.)

  42. WestCoastBucsFan Says:


    You never answered my question. Do heads roll if the Bucs are 10-6 next season with no playoffs? (For this arguments sake, lets say there were NO losing streaks greater than two AND no loss by more than 8 points.)

  43. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Whoops, sorry for the double post.

  44. stevek Says:

    West Coast,

    The Quarterback position counts as “two links” in the chain, then.

    QBs are tasked more than any other position on the team, and consistency at the position is a must.

    Do you think Freeman will be back, if he disappears for 3-4 games in a row and the team loses 5 straight games for the 3rd consecutive year?

    Freeman was god awful in some games last year, and we deserve more consistent play from our QB.

    A healthy Nicks, Joseph, and a 2nd year in the system should really help bolster Freeman.

    The QB position is the most vital of the entire team. If you can’t get leadership/consistency/ownus of mistakes, then there you go. No playoffs again. 🙁

  45. stevek Says:

    WestCoastBucsFan Says:
    June 3rd, 2013 at 3:09 pm

    You never answered my question. Do heads roll if the Bucs are 10-6 next season with no playoffs? (For this arguments sake, lets say there were NO losing streaks greater than two AND no loss by more than 8 points.)

    ^^^ No losing streak, no losses in greater than 8 points, then wow you found the perfect mediocre siutation.

    I can live with another year if we go 10-6, no playoffs, no losing streak, and Freeman looks like an NFL QB for all 16 games.

    If we don’t make the playoffs, don’t have a losing streak, and don’t lose any game by more than 8 points, then Freeman should be franchised and brought back to “prove it” in 2014.

    If all of the above happens, then Freeman may be a keeper. Does he complete 60% of his passes, and can he audible when home teams turn out the radios in the 4th quarter? Will I not be fed the “miscommunication” excuse one more time?

    Freeman has all of the ability in the world, and to this point 2010 has been his peak. I believe Josh can be better, he has all the tools. Does he have the mental wear with all to get it done? 2013 will be a great test/answer to that.

  46. McBuc Says:

    Andtrew Luck through 23 tds to 18 ints and around 4300 yards…

    SteveK, why not compare Eli to Freeman, They had comparable numbers in 2012. Eli had 26 tds and 15 ints, Freeman had about 22 more attempts than Eli, and had a lower percentage by a little over 5%. Eli had a little under 4000 yards. What was the big difference between Eli and Josh? DEFENSE! Not an excuse, it is the reason. Eli could not have won with the 2012 Bucs either.

  47. stevek Says:

    If Freeman comes out, and fails to establish consistency, then we should cut bait.

    The game is much more pass friendly/reliant. It is essential to have a QB that can complete 60% of his passes and provide consistency.

    Receivers can’t go up and get a ball thrown in the dirt.

    Freeman needs to sustain drives this year, and provide a whole lot less 3 and outs.

    He is close to putting it all together, and I hope he can do it this year. Dominick, Schiano, and the Glazers have given Freeman the world. Time for Joshy to step up and take us to the playoffs.

  48. Cody Says:

    FYI…Career averages after 4 years:

    Eli Manning after 4 years in: 2846 yds passing, 53.7% completion percentage, 19 TD’s, 16 int’s

    Josh Freeman averages 4 years in: 3240 yds passing, 58.3% completion percentage, 19 TD’s, 15 int’s

    Very similar…Freeman is actually a better passer as far as yds are concerned 4 years in…As a matter of fact Eli Manning had more talent around him in his 1st 4 years than Freeman had bar none. Eli had Plaxico, Amani Toomer, Shockey, Tiki, etc just sayin. Eli is just an average QB..

    Eli Manning career stats to date: 3503 yds passing, 58.6 completion percentage, 23 TD’s, 16 int’s.

    I’m sick of people sayin Eli out dueled Brady in 2 Super Bowls. Lets be for real here guys, the Giants winning those 2 Super Bowls had a lot more to do with what the Giants defense was able to Brady and the Pats than what Eli Manning did Period. This is a classic case were the QB gets all the praise. So yes he has 2 rings but how many of you would take Eli over Brady to QB your squad…Just what I thought, Nobody…

    Lay off Freeman, besides having to learn 3 offenses in 4 years with limited talent around him he’s still were he needs to be. Lets go Freeman prove all of these “Non-Believers” wrong…

  49. stevek Says:


    Don’t be naive. Just because we aren’t privileged to playoff QB play, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

    Eli beat Tom Brady, twice. Eli plays in New York, let’s see how Josh would do playing 50/50 in NY, he would be crucified.

  50. stevek Says:


    Eli or Tom Brady, I’d take either over Freeman.

    And the argument is not Eli> Brady, please don’t twist your losing statement into some sort of a hail mary.

    Like Freeman, your (verbal) passes complete less than 60%.

  51. Rahb Says:


    Always an ominous tone when Josh is the Topic!

    However, I am convinced that Young Man has what it takes to climb into ELITE STATUS in the NEAR future. It is Josh who will make the Buccaneers a relevent and consistent long as the defense can pull their weight.

  52. Drew Says:


    I sure miss Thomas 2.2. Any chance you’ll unbar him and allow his sick sense of humor back into the blog? Same goes for Miguel. They at least made it interesting at times and gave us all someone to slap around a little bit.

  53. Buccsfan76 Says:

    @ flmike & TrueBlue – SPOT ON!

  54. McBuc Says:

    SteveK, there are only about 14 QBs sitting at 60% o better, unfortunatly two of them are in the NFC South, and I am sure our defense helped boost their numbers. TDs are a better judge in my book. And by saying that Eli out dueled Brady in two Superbowls, you brought the comparison of who is better by that statement. If you think the NY defense did not have anything to do with those two wins, than it is not worth discussing any further. The fact is statics show that Eli and Freeman are in the same ball park, except for the big W, which is the most important. Do not say you do not want to argue stats, until you through out your passer rating argument. By the way, Eli is slightly under 60%, but under none the less.

  55. McBuc Says:

    The W stat is reflective of the entire team, not just the QB. Like someone said above, if free has the same year but a winning season, no one will care about 2 bad games. Eli tossed a whopping 15 more completions than josh…

  56. Capt. Tim Says:

    My concern is the same now, as it was at the end of the season. We still have not drafted/aquired anyone who can attack the center of the field- a Slot Reciever or pass catching TE

    As Albert Einstein so brilliantly pointed out- to continue to perform an activity in an identical fashion- repeatedly- and expect a different result, is the definition of insanity.

    As all analyst/ commentators/ educated fans pointed out last year- defenses double covered Jackson and Williams on the sidelines, because we had no player capable of attacking the center of the field. John Lynch pointed out several instances of CBs breaking to the sideline, and WAITING for our WRs.
    Rodgers/Montana/Bradshaw/Elway etc couldn’t complete passes under those circumstances.

    That was way we suddenly nose dived into a long losing streak, and Josh struggled in the passing game. Defenses realized that if they double covered Williams and Jackson on the sideline, then we had nothing else to throw at them- and our offensive coordinator couldn’t adjust .

    I’ve listened to all the BS about how a TE isn’t that important in this scheme, and a slot Reciever isn’t important.

    It was damn obvious last year- those positions were VERY important- because without them, they shut our passing attack down with 2 easy double teams.

    And so far- we haven’t added either one. You won’t win in this league by being forced to throw in to double teams.

    And nobody is winning games by being a running team. Not in today’s NFL

  57. Raphael Says:

    @ Stevek. Your about the dumbest poster I’ve seen in a while..

    You realise we had the 9th ranked offense and the 29 th ranked defense?

    In Freemans 1st year in the new offense…

    Lol @ the freeman hater morons !

  58. Cody Says:

    Thanks McBuc some people just dont get it…

    Mr/Mrs. Steveks hate for Freeman caused him to totally miss the point…

    Football is a team sport…Good QB’s don’t win Super Bowls; Good teams do…

  59. lightningbuc Says:

    West Coast,

    You’re big on the “what if” game, so I’ll play along. If the alleged “rock star” has assembled a 10-6 team, he can stay another year, whether they make the playoffs or not. Anything less, he needs to go. There, I’m on record so now you know where I stand. BTW, with the schedule as it is I think this is an 8-8 team. I hope they go 16-0.

  60. lightningbuc Says:


    Freeman was 13th out of 17 NFC QBs who had enough plays in 2012 in Total QB Rating, which takes into consideration a lot more things than just yardage, which you Freeman lovers like to point at. Doug Martin is the reason our offense was ranked 9th, not Freeman.

  61. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    ” . . . we deserve more consistent play from our QB.”

    Really? We DESERVE more consistent play? Says who? You act like we are doing Josh a favor here. Like there is a line of Hall of Fame quarterbacks salivating at the opportunity to lead the Bucs to a Super Bowl. I got news for you buddy. Consistent, elite quarterbacks don’t fall from the sky or grow on trees. Like it or not, Josh may very well be the best quarterback the Bucs have ever had in their 37 year history. That alone shows how difficult it is to find an elite quarterback. Freeman may NEVER be a “Brady” status quarterback (in fact, it is probably more than likely he wont). This doesn’t mean we should cut bait and start over if he doesn’t have an elite season. You need to wake up and realize that Freeman doesn’t NEED to lead the Bucs to a Super Bowl (or the playoffs). Schiano does. The coach leads the team, not the quarterback. Do you think the Patriots make the playoffs every year IN SPITE of Belichick? Packers and Rodgers? Steelers and Rothlisberger? Look at the head coaches here.

    It takes a coach AND a quarterback as well as an entire team of coaches and players and front office personnel to win it all. There isn’t one guy that does it himself.

    I can tell you this, Freeman WILL disappear for parts of games and maybe even entire games. So will every other player. The team needs to be able to pick up the slack. Brees has quite a few of 3+ interception games under his belt. He needs his team to step up sometimes as well. There are very few games where every player puts on their best performance. This is where you need help from other parts of the team to make up for it. IT IS A TEAM EFFORT.

  62. SteveK Says:


    Only a complete IDIOT would be satisfied with the 7-9 season last year.

    Way to dress up a sh!tty season with “9th ranked O, #1 ranked rush D”…. Come on man, we were 7-9, and had a 5+ game losing streak for the 2nd year in a row.


    I am a dude, and QBs do impact the game more than any other team member. QBs are the lifeblood of a team. Good teams that win super bowls have good QBs, not inconsistent, mentally weak QBs that are unable to audible.

    Thanks LightningBucs,

    Freeman was 13 out of 17 in NFC passers last year. 6 “teams” from each conference make the playoffs each year. Our “team” is not a playoff team if our QB is 13th best QB in the NFC.

    Doug Martin, Vincent Jackson, Bob Bostad, LaVonte David, and GMC are the reasons we got 7 wins last year. Freeman played well at times, but failed to present consistency.

  63. Cody Says:

    I’ll go on record…I think we’ll do 1 better than 10-6… I say 11-5…

    with loses to @NE, @ATL, @NO, @SEA, SF…I think we can win every other game on the schedule…

    I know each season is different but this was a playoff team already as Revis said…Heck we lost at least 3 games in the final 90 seconds cause our secondary was so ridiculously putrid…

  64. SteveK Says:

    West Coast,

    Freeman is the end all be all in winning a championship. A loaded “team” can get to the playoffs, but a consistent QB is needed to win a championship. See the Ravens and Joe Flacco. Flacco could roll out of bed every morning and complete 60% of his passes.

    If the Bucs want to win a Lombardi Trophy, then it will take Freeman emerging into a reliable, good QB. He is not reliable enough to get credit for his accomplishments.

    How can the Bucs game plan for a QB who is not a proven, established, consistent performer? We had a great defense and Trent Dilfer for a long time.

  65. SteveK Says:


    Our secondary got exposed bc our dip sh!t QB couldnt stop turning the ball over, committing too many 3 and outs…

    There are as many reasons to our pass D sucking so bad last year that can be attributed to the lack of good play from Freeman. It is a team game after all.

    Freeman launched most of his INTs in a 3 game period, and failed to call an audilbe at Dallas, or bombed out the game at Denver and the Eagles game…

    Freeman flat out sucked just as bad as our pass D last year, at certain points..

  66. Andrew 1 Says:

    I am a Freeman fan, but 55% completion percentage is just not good enough. he needs to get it closer to 60 and be in the single digits in regards to interception.

  67. Tiny tim Says:

    @ Stevek,

    You totally missed the Eli comparison. The fans of NY wanted to run him out of town “before” he won the two superbowls. You think they want that now? Of course not because he matured. Point is, let JFee mature as well and then he can call for his head.

  68. Couch Fan Says:

    The main difference between Eli and Josh is pretty simple. Eli plays his best when the team needs him the most. Josh simply has not done that, in fact he’s been the exact opposite. Eli DID have help win those 2 super bowls because of his play. The defense had a big part of it but Eli played extremely well and continues to do so in big games. Freeman has not shown that ability yet except against bad teams.

  69. Tiny tim Says:

    @ PewterPirate

    “That’s all great for him but when it mattered he didn’t pick the team up like QB’s have to do from time to time. In fact, he was at his most inconsisent when we needed him most. I like Freeman but he needs to put it all together this year and take this team to the playoffs.”

    So when the defense gave up 5 fourth quarter leads, that was Freeman’s fault? You add those 5 wins and the bucs would have have made the playoffs easily. Just add four and that would have given 11 wins. You can’t blame the not making the playoffs all on Josh!!! Get a clue!!

  70. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ couch fan

    “Eli plays his best when the team needs him the most. Josh simply has not done that.”

    Freeman’s 9 career 4th quarter comebacks and 10 career game winning drives makes that statement complete BS.

  71. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Tiny tim

    I agree with you.

  72. Couch Fan Says:


    You might want to take another look at exactly what I said and stop trying to disprove everything people say that you dont like.

    All those comebacks were against bad teams. No BS there.

    Nice try though.

  73. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    I dont care if we are vs the freaking chiefs, a comeback is a comeback. you are right about one thing though, i shouldnt have jumped into this debate. your just to stubborn to listen to reason. Ill gladly take my leave.

  74. Couch Fan Says:

    Lol no you’ll take your leave because you are simply tired of having to come up with excuses to defend your boy.

    Yes a comeback is a comeback but when its against a horrible team that you should of beat easily to begin with… what exactly is there to be proud of?

    You are the one who said my comment was BS. Now you duck and hide when i confront you about it. Lol

  75. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    ever heard of the term “any given sunday”? listen buddy we already got into this a while back and it ended the same way, with neither of us changing our stance. so while would never “duck and hide” as you put it, I just dont so the point in informing the hopeless. peace out.

  76. Eric Says:

    I’m pretty sure the Glazer boys have had enough of lasting pretenders. Another whiff at the playoffs and I suspect heads will roll.

    There are always good teams. Nothing particularly tough about the NFC.

    Washington and Seattle broke through just last year. And the redskins have that idiot Bruce Allen, who manages to win wherever he is GM.

    No rock star of course.

  77. Tiny tim Says:

    @ Stevek,

    Trent Dilfer won a superbowl with the Ravens and he was completely garbage. So don’t tell me the bucs can’t win a Superbowl if the “TEAM” performed better all around with the way Freeman currently plays. The QB is merely one facet to a whole.

  78. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    got any more shots you want to take, Im game. I wont “duck and hide” as you put it. Im right here…

    if not I would rather do something else than get into a 2 hour argument with you that leads to no where. the simple fact yes we are not going to change each others minds.

  79. Cody Says:

    Man it is some Freeman Haters on this board. You’d think he replaced Bart Starr or something.

    People are calling for the head of a 25 yr old QB that hasn’t even reached his prime yet but has still managed to break every major QB record for this franchise…WoW!…when will you guys learn Rome wasn’t built in a day…

    That’s the problem with a multitude of Bucs fans they never want to go through the growing pains of developing a QB; they want the finished product YeSTerDaY!…SMFH…Remember these Super Bowl winning QB’s Doug Williams, Steve Young, Trent Dilfer, (Josh Freeman?)…

  80. SteveK Says:

    Tiny Tim,

    The QB is much more in today’s NFL. Passing is easier, and rule changes are to promote more points, specifically passing.

    ESPN Insider did a great post, showing Freeman’s “Franchise Best” stats are merely mediocre/subpar.

  81. WestCoastBucsFan Says:


    . . . Bruce Allen, who manages to win wherever he is GM.

    No rock star of course.

    Hmm, exactly one 10-6 season amongst all his losing seasons as a Redskin. Of course, it took him three seasons to get to 10-6 (as opposed to Dom’s second) as well as trading away the farm for a guy that may never play again. He definitely is NO Rockstar . . .

  82. Couch Fan Says:

    Wish I knew why my posts wont go through when I’m not saying anything bad in them.

  83. Tiny tim Says:

    @ Stevek,

    You can look at all that QBR bs that ESPN puts out so they can seem more important than they are (and that is only to report sports news and not to manufacture it) if you like.

    I will laugh at you just like I laughed at Joe for posting an article from stat geeks that showed EJ biggers was one of the better CB and Ronde Barber was one of the worst. I do not need a new made up formula to tell me if Josh is a good or bad QB. Not that you care, but I was a business major and I can present numbers that can argue for or against any subject.

  84. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Not to mention that Allen (without competent ownership to keep him somewhat in check) has the Redskins so far into cap hell that they have been penalized for it.

    @Couch Fan

    You really just have to pray to the filter gods that you didn’t say some random, banned combination of words that makes no sense. I have asked Joe to comment several times to no avail. I assume it is merely out of his hands.

  85. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    @Couch Fan

    You can also try adding a some character like th`is to the middle of words until it goes through.

  86. Couch Fan Says:


    Do you think Freeman plays well when we need him the most?
    Well lets break this down.

  87. Couch Fan Says:

    lol this is to funny it literally will not let me post my reasoning. Guess the filter gods dont want to hear the truth!

  88. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    was there more to your post, did you have something broken down? the answer to that question is yes and no. there is no one definite answer with that question. sometimes he does, sometimes he doesnt, but more often that not he does. you cant expect any QB to come through every single time.

  89. SteveK Says:

    Couch Fan,

    Find a way to beat the propaganda powers at hand!

    Please find a way to post your reasoning. Looking forward to seeing it.

  90. Cody Says:

    Mr. Stevek “aka” The QB Guru…

    You should know by now that the Bucs get no love from 99.9% of the media outlets out there (other than the local ones of course). We’re the “Red headed step child of the NFL”…

    When we win it’s not because we were the better team it’s because we played a “bad team”, the opposing team had a bad outing, or gave us the game in some way shape or form, etc; and when we lose, we simply did what we were supposed to do…

    Bottom line, 99.9% of media outlets will and usually do discredit/downplay everything we do…We’re the Rodney Dangerfield of the NFL…”we get no respect”…Not even from a lot of our own fans…This has to be the most fickle fan base in the NFL bar none…

  91. Couch Fan Says:

    yes there is more to my post and I’m trying to break the 2nd and 3rd parts down but its not wanting to work with me.

  92. Andrew 1 Says:

    looks like I win by default!!! just kidding.

  93. Couch Fan Says:

    In my opinion, there are 3 times during a season when you need a player at his best. 1 is against good teams. Freeman, for the most part is, at best, non existant against good teams.

  94. Couch Fan Says:

    The second being when the season is winding down. Freeman’s late season struggles are well documented.

  95. Couch Fan Says:

    and finally the playoffs for obvious reasons but since josh has never took us to the playoffs this doesnt count.

    My post was not meant to bash Freeman, only keeping it real and pointing out the obvious differences between he and Eli.

    Yes he has had comeback wins against bad teams but if thats what you want to hang your hat on. So be it, but that doesnt impress me.

  96. Drew Says:

    By popular vote we have a new Thomas 2.2 and Miguel in Couch fan.

    Popular vote being the number of @Couch Fan posts.

  97. Couch Fan Says:


    Was you trying to be funny or just stupid? I can’t tell.

    Or maybe you should just read up more to see why I posted so many.
    Reading does wonders for ignorance!!

  98. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    you do realize that with your 3 instances, expect for the playoffs of course, I can point to times when he actually came through.

    this whole divide amongst bucs fans over Freeman is simply really. The Freeman supporters, like myself, choose to remember Freeman’s good points and use that as a reason as to why the believe he will be successful while the Freeman haters choose to remember Freeman’s bad points and use that reason as to why they believe Freeman wont be successful.

    at this point in time its all about how you perceive Freeman since he has his good points and bad. I choose to think of Freeman in a good light and believe he will build off of that and become a good QB.

    its a glass half empty/half full logic.

  99. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    I think that pretty much sums it up. dont worry about your posts not going through because as sure as the sun rises tomorrow you can bet Joe will post another Freeman article where we can continue this little debate. until we meet again.

  100. Couch Fan Says:

    Ahh see you misunderstood the whole point of my posts. Had nothing to do with how I remembered Freeman. My post was just to the people who were comparing Josh and Eli. But yes until the next Freeman article!!

  101. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    I am sorry Andrew1, even though I am a Freeman supporter, I support logic even more. Couch Fan makes some great points. Freeman certainly hasn’t proven himself in those situations on even a remotely consistent basis. I still think he can though.

    I believe he has the fire and willingness to pull it off. Now that he wont have to compensate for a historically bad defense we can grade Freeman MUCH more accurately. I believe he was asked (or possibly put it on himself) to win games on his own because of the defense and he simply wasn’t ready to do that in this offense. I know people call it an “excuse” that he was with all the different OC’s and QB coaches but I think it is a fair reason that he has not established consistency. I mean, how can you expect consistency when there is everything BUT consistency going on around him?

  102. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Couch

    to be honest I didn’t pay any attention to the Freeman/Eli argument, because to compare them is just ridiculous. I was just talking about bucs fans in general when the topic involves Freeman.

  103. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ West Coast

    “I still think he can though.”

    thats what Im saying… thats what separates us Freeman supports from the Freeman haters. they don’t believe he can. go ahead and ask Couch if he thinks he can. Im guessing the answer is no.

  104. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    I think Couch just brings fair points to have doubt in Freeman. I would like to think he at least hopes Freeman can pull it off and if he at least “hopes” Freeman can pull it off then that means he believes Freeman has the “ability” to pull it off. He just probably doesn’t think it will happen but I will stop speaking for him now.

    My only argument for the people that want him gone is . . . . who? Who is going to replace him? That rookie third round quarterback? That is who you would rather run this team? That is just preferring the unknown over the inconsistent which is at least as bad if not worse. There is no one we could have drafted or signed since Freeman was drafted that could have done it better. (Sans Peyton Manning.) And NO, I DONT think Kaepernick, Dalton, or Wilson could do a better job if put in the same situation as Freeman at the time they were drafted. They are all one year wonders except Dalton who has a stellar defense. I just think Freeman is the best option for us right now.

  105. Raphael Says:

    Freeman will be here for a long time…believe that ! And all of you hacks that don’t know football can eat your crow..

    Lightning buc. You do know that freeman was the best QB in buc history last year right ? In the first year of a new system, and last I checked the QB runs the offense including checking to run plays and getting the protections right..

    Lmao @ the dumb freman haters !

  106. lightningbuc Says:

    “You do know that freeman was the best QB in buc history last year right”

    Wow, what an achievement considering Tampa Bay has been a super star QB factory for the better part of 35 years!

  107. Couch Fan Says:

    Yes I hope he can pull it off. I am after all a Buc fan and realize Freeman is our best hope at this point. Do I believe he will do it? Sadly no. But as they say, thats why we play the games. I hope he proves me wrong.

  108. PewterPirate Says:

    @Tiny tim

    Go ahead and continue to make excuses for Freeman. It always comes back to the QB which is why it is the single most important position in the NFL. Everyone wants to pat Freeman on the back for his comebacks yet failing to realize that he is a large reason why we needed a comeback at the end. He has a habit of disappearing in the first half and then try to be a hero to come storming back for a win. Don’t get me wrong, I want a QB that plays his best at the end but we need him to be decently good in the first half too. At least the secondary has an excuse, they were playing with a bunch of undrafted rookies, a CB turned FS who played in the box and a rookie SS who was asked to play more like a FS.

  109. Raphael Says:

    @lightningbuc, so the previous 35 yrs is Freemans fault? Lol

    Epic fail …..bandwagon fan

  110. Raphael Says:

    What’s funny is after Freeman has a great year all the haters and bandwagon fans will sit back and ” see I told he had to do it this year”. DOH ! Lmao

  111. scubog Says:

    Out of all of the worthy and sometimes thoughtful contributions to the Responses section only one stands out. The juvenile names given to two quality young men in Josh Freeman and Mark Dominik by a certain poster. I don’t know about the careers of any of the fans(?) on this site; but I know that after 30 years of success at the same job, I’m still learning as I suspect is true for every player in the NFL. Perhaps though coining the names JFro and Pop Star is the pinnacle for a certain realist.

  112. McBuc Says:

    SteveK, you want Freeman to be a single INT [passer, yet the only three starters in 2012 to have that stat to brag about are Big Ben, Brady, and Rodgers. I gues you would send Breese with his 19 packing.

  113. SteveK Says:

    McBuc, Raphael, West Coast, LightningBuc, Andrew1,Pewter Pirate:

    I want Freeman to become consistent, and his “franchise best season” in 2012 was nullified by taking 3-4 games and SUCKING.

    Freeman can do it, but can he do it consistently? We will see in 2013.

    I hope I am eating crow as the Bucs are hoisting the Lombardi trophy next year, we will see.

    Freeman has worlds of physical talent, but does he have the ability to put it all together?

    I am not hating on Josh, but I must admit the frustration in watching him play. He is either Joe Montana or Ryan Leaf out there, no in between..

  114. Russ Miller Says:

    From what I just read, it sounds like as many as 5 receivers could be running an option route on any given play, choosing one of two assigned routes depending on how they interpret the defense. That’s not just complicated. It’s a clusterfubar. That gives the qb 5 different opportunities to guess wrong, even if there weren’t any defensive backs to consider. If I were Josh, I’m not sure I’d want a new contract to keep playing in that kind of scheme. I’d want to play someplace where I’d always know where my receivers were going to be and just worried about the whether or not the defensive back was in position to get in the way. That’s a sane system, and it wouldn’t make every fan in the world think I didn’t know what I was doing.