“Don’t Count On Four Wins”

June 21st, 2013

Once again, SiriusXM NFL Radio’s Pat Kirwan beat his chest for the Bucs to sign former Dixie Chicks’ pass rushing specialist John Abraham, or forget about playoffs.

Former Bucs scout and proud resident of Naples, Pat Kirwan, really likes what Bucs rock star general manager Mark Dominik has done in recent months with the Bucs.

Kirwan is a big fan of the Bucs‘ offense, likes the secondary, yet is skeptical of any candidate on the Bucs roster in contention for the SAM linebacker position.

What Kirwan really doesn’t like, and believes will be the Bucs’ Achilles Heel preventing them from a playoff berth, is a lack of an established pass-rushing defensive end.

Kirwan has harped about this in recent months but really hammered home his point this afternoon. In so many words, unless the Bucs are able to consistently put Matty Ice and Drew Brees on the ground, winning the NFC South (which what very well may be required to get to the playoffs this season) is a pipe dream, so he told his co-host of “Movin’ the Chains,” Tim Ryan, heard exclusively on SiriusXM NFL Radio.

Pat Kirwan: You can’t let those two guys throw the ball around the field and the answer isn’t, “Well, we’ve got a better secondary.” Trust me on that front. You. Had. 27. Sacks. Last. Year. Has anyone changed who is getting to the quarterback?

Tim Ryan: No, but [Adrian] Clayborn is healthy and he did have seven a couple of years ago and I do like him as a player. We’ll see what Da’Quan Bowers can do. Clearly they think his health will hold up.

Kirwan: I like those names, but I would like to see a real pass rusher on that field like John Abraham. Somebody I know will rush the passer. I will take a bet that Gerald McCoy has 12 sacks. You taking that bet?

Ryan: I don’t know if it is going to be 12 but I expect him to have double-digit sacks.

Kirwan: I think he is a very good player and I like everything he is doing. When you face the Saints and the Falcons and you sack the quarterback once every 38 passes, don’t count on four wins there. Please.

Kirwan has a point, Joe believes, in that you simply cannot let Brees and Matty Ice just sit back throwing without fear of hearing footsteps.

Two years ago when the Bucs beat the Dixie Chicks at the Stadium on Dale Mabry Highway, Matty Ice was punished regularly by the Bucs’ pass rush, specifically Gerald McCoy and Adrian Clayborn.

The way the Bucs stacked up on pass rushers in the draft, Joe has a hunch that on passing downs, it is quite likely Akeem Spence, currently targeted to start at the tilted nose position, will come off the field and the Bucs will move Da’Quan Bowers inside and bring in Steven Means or William Gholston.

34 Responses to ““Don’t Count On Four Wins””

  1. Biff Barker Says:

    Not sure why you would take Bowers off the edge where he can use his quickness on 3rd downs. I’d move Gholston inside and put Means at RDE. Clayborn is not exactly Simeon like when talking quickness.

  2. Couch Fan Says:

    There is talent all over the defense now, its up to the coaching to get it out of them.

  3. Bobby Says:

    Is it just me or did we almost beat Atlanta twice last year with the worst DB’s in football?? Not worried about Atlanta. New Orleans isn’t going to light us up this year either. The pass rush will be there.

  4. BuccaneerBonzai Says:

    You slould worry about Atlanta. They will be the Bucs main divisional competitor throughou the next decade. Like the Colts were for the Pats all those years.

    I want Abraham here but not as the starter…and I don’t think he’s willing to be a backup. I don’t see why not. It would extend his career and in Tampa he would have a good shot at getting the start due to injury later.

    But clearly Abraham is not thinking that way. He wants to be handed starting pay and a starting role.

    I disagree with the take on Clayborn and Bowers. I also think moving Bowers inside is a horrible idea (sorry Joe).

  5. BuccaneerBonzai Says:

    And by the way…with all they hype we’ve been hearing about means he should be in on passing downs. Unless the hype was blowing smoke up our rears.

  6. BigEl Says:

    I like our chances with the young guys we have, Abraham has been a good player through out his career, but not great. There has to be some reason he’s still unsigned. I’m wondering how a player becomes an “established ” player if he’s not playing on a regular basis.

  7. Sneedy16 Says:


    I was wondering the same thing. The I am more worried about the Saints more than the Falcons. Drew just goes off and become unstoppable when he is in a zone. Matty just need one incompletion and it throws him off, plus the Falcon’s defense hasn’t improved much, other than Desmond Trufant. They

  8. Bucnjim Says:

    The transformation into a physical team is just about complete. The Falcons & Saints are finesse teams & are able to put points on the board, but if you smack them in the mouth a couple of times they do not perform well. Something tells me this D is going to knock your D**K in the dirt.

  9. Cody Says:

    Abraham is still a Free-Agent for a reason; imo bringing him in and taking our young guys off the field in those situations stunts there growth as pass-rushers; we invested high draft picks in Clayborn and Bowers we need to know what we have in these guys…I’m excited to see what a healthy d-line can accomplish for us…

  10. Kalind Says:

    Guys, this needs to be put to bed. Kirwan needs to understand the position the team is in here too. The Bucs (as well as every other team) hasn’t signed Abraham. He’s done. Secondly, why would you bring in another pass rusher, further delaying your discovery of Clayborn and Bowers? We HAVE to know if they can get the job done. Sooner rather than later would be preferable. Bringing in Abraham (or another ‘pass rusher’) will only steal snaps from guys who need it. You think when Abraham was a young guy there was some veteran stealing snaps from him? No. They put him in and saw what he could do.

    Hint: This is what every team does (and has to do) with every player on their roster at some point. The guys are third year players! Lets see what we drafted.

  11. Kalind Says:

    Well said, Cody.

    As for the formation, I agree with the above statement from Biff. Move Gholston inside, keep Bowers outside. Yes Bowers has done it. But Bowers is a better End than Gholston, and Gholston has done it too in College.

    Its the best layout avail

  12. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    I’m taking it that Joe agrees with Pat Kirwan. It also appears that Joe and Pat are making a collaborated effort to change Dominik’s mind on John Abraham through print and talk media. Using your bully pulpit to massage the GM to do what you guys think in order for the Bucs to get a favorable playoff prognostication.

    There has to be a reason why Dom’s not interested in Abraham. So far Dom has shown us that there are reasons to his madness, and he hasn’t been wrong yet. So quit trying to press the issue. You guys would look like fools if you harass Dom enough to pick up Abraham, and he takes a roster spot from an up and coming younger guy, and he stinks up the joint.

  13. loung Says:

    were don!t need him . were got the unit young D.E

  14. aj Says:

    If Abraham wanted to come in as a backup, he’d probably already be here. But he wouldn’t be a starter here. No more reason to talk about it unless Abraham is still available come training camp and reduces his asking price.

    I’m a little worried about depth, but Bowers is going to outstanding this year. You can see it in the film down the stretch, dude is ready and is able to get to the corner. And he was overweight and out of shape then, coming off the achilles.

    Don’t forget 2.5 seconds, the average time to throw against the world’s worst pass defense last year. You can’t accurately gauge the rush when the rush has no time. Revis Island will change that, qbs will be holding onto the ball this year, and Bowers will be the biggest beneficiary.

  15. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Look, you can’t go and grab starting caliber players to back up every person that has ever had an injury. That is how you waste cap space and miss out on experience for the guys that need it. Dom and Schiano are putting faith in Clayborn and Bowers because they have to. If they sign somebody now then they will need to play to justify their pay by playing them. (Not to mention that a guy like Abraham probably doesn’t play special teams, a necessity for backups.) Doing this not only shows a lack of confidence in your current players but could lead to locker room issues.

    That said, for pass rushing situations, Gholston (6’7) and McCoy(6’4) on the inside (to knock down passes) and Bowers and Clayborn on the outside. That sounds like the best lineup to me in passing situations.

  16. loung Says:

    i am love my buccaneers . hey . if you don!t trust the bucs .. just bet

  17. Adam Says:

    Abraham is unsigned because he doesn’t want to go through OTA’s. Also, if he signs now, he’s getting in on a team that has their roster maxed out. I’ll bet real money that he is working out somewhere in private waiting for an injury someplace where you can step in and get more than the league minimum guaranteed. It’s a power play. The guy could be a very affective third-down pass rusher. Honestly, I would love to have him on the Bucs. This guy went up against Matt Ryan every single day.

  18. BucFanForever Says:

    It is possible that Abraham could help this season, but the Rockstar wants to win this season and next season and for many seasons after that. Abraham is not a player who can do that.

    So Kirwan, try to be more creative in your recommendations, because just using the standard formula:

    Every team needs a great pass rush
    Some old, big-name free agent defensive lineman
    Magic solution to get team to win Super Bowl

    If that formula were actually true, Abraham and not Revis would have a contract for $16,000,000 a year.

    And if it were true, Dominik should resign Simeon Rice and Warren Sapp, then the Bucs would really be in good shape.

  19. Biff Barker Says:

    In your scenario, Means and Morgan are both off the field. Both speed guys.
    In addition, Landri is supposed to have good explosion off the ball.
    My take its Spence and Claborn coming off. We’ll see come September can’t wait.

  20. Santos Says:

    How come Pat isn’t talkin about that weak falcons offensive line? They lost two starters and they weren’t even good last year… And we lost by one and won the other vs them… Why can’t our improved secondary and healthy d-line help us now?

  21. Yeah It's me! Says:

    WOW!!! Great posts! I agree with almost everything single thing posted so far.That’s a first. GO D!!! GO BUCS!!!

  22. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    @Biff Barker

    I would not take Clayborn off the field. The guy has a non-stop motor and had 7.5 sacks as a rookie. I honestly feel that Means and Morgan are depth guys, not situational pass rushers(*this season*). The tackle spot next to McCoy is the only real question to me. McCoy, Bowers, and Clayborn should be on the field as much as possible. That fourth guy could be Means on the edge if Bowers goes inside. Just my opinion though.

  23. BigMacAttack Says:

    Kirwashedup is right when he says you can’t let Brees and Ryan pass all over the field. What he doesn’t know is how well the Bucs D Line will perform. He has no clue at all and he has totally overlooked the 3 linemen drafted this year. Abraham is another year older and Pat is also ignoring that fact. He is all about knee jerk reactions, omg the sky is falling. There is no reason to rush out and sign a DE. During training camp and preseason, the Bucs will have a good feel for their pass rush quality and depth. If a problem or injury arises then Dom can make a move. And what about the 1500 players that will be looking after roster cuts? Teams like the 49’rs will be releasing players selected in the 3’rd or 4’th round. Quality D linemen may become available.

    Kirwan needs to calm down, relax and smoke a bowl or something. The guy seems to be in total panic mode. This is the time for NFL types to reload and gather for the approaching storm. Idiot.

  24. kh Says:

    Don’t forget about Te’o-Neishem, I think he’s good depth, love his motor.

  25. Architek Says:

    The premise is on point but Abraham is no lock to put the Bucs pass rush over the top. Most pure pass rushers are birth or groomed into their dominance. Rarely are they acquisition options and the risks of adding that personality to the locker room is questionable. The Bucs are amidst culture overhaul and the wrong addition can undermine their progress.

    I say grow you our garden and focus on development.

  26. BuccFanInHawkeyeCountry Says:

    I say pass on Abraham. I’d put ghoston inside. Dudes what 6’12. Qbs won’t be lookin right cuz of revis. Make em throw over that monster

  27. BuccaneerBonzai Says:

    I see nothing wrong at all with signing Abraham to a backup role, if he is willing. That way our young guys still develop and if someone gets injured we have a good quality fill-in.

    I’m not really worried about the cap because we have the room. A 2 year deal with only the first year guaranteed would work out great. Who knows? Maybe Abraham would be a good mentor to our DEs.

    As far as why other teams have not signed him..it isn’t because of anything other than price and role. Abraham has had offers that he refused to sign. This leads people to think he is trying to avoid OTAs. Maybe so. But I suspect the real reason is stubborness. He wants his cake.

  28. MTLBucsFan Says:

    I agree with @kh. Don’t know how Te’o-Neishem gets forgotten when it comes to DL depth. He was very solid when needed last season, a great guy to have for depth.

  29. FEATURED BUCS ARTICLE: “Don’t Count On Four Wins” | Buccaneers - NFC South Daily | Tampa Bay Buccaneers Blog Says:

    […] The rest of the article can be found here: JoeBucsFan.com […]

  30. PRBucFan Says:

    Pat Kirwan who???

    And we care what this guy thinks cause???

    That’s right we don’t lol… move along

  31. Tomcin Says:

    IMO I think Teo Neashim is way underrated. He could probably start for a lot of teams. The only way I would even consider Abraham is if an injury happened to Bowers or Clayborn.

  32. NJ BucFan Says:

    The notion that we should sign Abraham just because we have the cap space is completely mistaken and short sighted. Moves like that will end up costing us someone who can help us for the next 5-10 years just to apply a 1-2 year band-aid that may not even be an upgrade over what we have.

    We have cap room right now because we haven’t started the process of resigning our homegrown players yet. After Mike Williams gets his extension in the coming months any remaining cap room will be carried over to next year when Freeman, McCoy, Foster, Bowers, Wright and Clayborn among others may all be looking at new contracts. Not saying they will all get new contracts, as some of them will still have a year left, but their play this year or their cap hit(McCoy) may force Dominik’s hand and so he has to be prepared for that possibility.

    Freeman and McCoy’s new contracts will actually end up freeing up space since they are at the end of back-loaded rookie contracts. Clayborn, Foster and Bowers will all eat up more space than they currently do. With around $15-20 million in space before William’s extension, it’s likely we have $10 million to carry over next year, that’s more than enough for a major signing next year that we wouldn’t be able to do if we spend it this year.

  33. bucsguy Says:

    The fact is we have an unproven dline but if these guys show up like the brass think they can we could have the best dline in the league and if they don’t we work on it next year. I don’t know if kirwan remebers but we beat the falcons at their house last year with our horrible secondary and should have beat the Saints as well once again with last year’s secondary and although we only had 27 sacks we were close alot and had alot of hurries just couldn’t quite get there. With that being said you make the qb hold the ball 1 more tic and those hurries become sacks so just say that happens 1 more time a game (which with our secondary seems really conservative) that is 16 more sacks that put us up to 41 now we are a top 10 passrushing team I don’t think this is a crazy of the wall possibility in fact I thinks it is what will happen. I think that this squad will be a top 10 defensev and a top 10 off and all these guys will be swinging on the “sack” come December.

  34. BigMacAttack Says:

    If Abraham comes to Tampa, Donald Penn will whoop his A$$ at practice. Too many battles there and Penn will have to show him who’s the boss.

    Just say “No” to Abraham.