Did The Bucs Lose Toughness?

May 21st, 2012

Say what you want about Kellen Winslow, but the guy showed up to play every Sunday with his surgically repaired knees and was productive.

Can Bucs fans argue with his toughness? Ultimately, the guy didn’t miss a snap in three seasons.

Yeah, Winslow was allowed to sit out loads of practices and was hardly the most willing blocker, and had some seemingly selfish on-field moments. But Joe almost has to wonder whether that was, in part, a result of the previous coaching staff’s attitude and leadership.

Apparently, Greg Schiano didn’t think Winslow could be transformed into one of his “Buccaneer Men.”

Joe’s hardly crying because of Winslow’s Tampa demise; he’s arguably the worst starting tight end in the NFC South. But Joe knows the Bucs need to make up Winslow’s production and the threat he gave some defenses, and it’s always a challenge to replace a productive guy that plays every Sunday.

Rumored replacment Dallas Clark has missed 16 games over the past two seasons.

31 Responses to “Did The Bucs Lose Toughness?”

  1. Snook Says:

    I don’t see him buying into the Trust, Belief and Accountability mantra.

    And I don’t think he’ll really need to be replaced. How much would he have been involved in the proposed “run heavy” offense anyways?

    Any bets he ends up in Washington? K2 loved him some Raheem Morris.

  2. Eric Says:

    You remove nearly 800 receiving yards from a already horrific offense.

    Because the guy didnt show up for OTA’s?

    I would think K2 was an important cog to open things up for Jackson, or vice versa.

  3. Chris FWC Says:

    We lost a Soulja today! Wasn’t a fan of WinSLOW.

  4. Patrick Says:

    If they trade him and get Osi, and then sign Clark……then it’s a win.

    It would be pointless to just cut him and sign someone who’s older, more injury prone, and expensive.

  5. Shayne Says:

    We didn’t lose toughness, I dont think winslow is tough, he might be a player that gets under peoples skin on the field, but IMO he doesant bring much toughness to this team and @Eric you do have a point, hopefully dallas clark or another TE can do that for us this year

  6. Macabee Says:

    I’m not surprised by the proposed Winslow trade, but I am a little surprised that they are on the verge of making an offer to Dallas Clark. Below are 2 comments on Clark from RotoWorld. I know about the Winslow shortcomings, but is this an improvement?

    According to Yahoo’s Jason Cole the “word on the street” is that free agent Dallas Clark “is done.”
    He sure looked it last year. Clark was relentlessly blown up as an on-the-line blocker, and the 33-year-old (in June) dropped an alarming eight of his 63 targets, per Pro Football Focus’ charting data. There’s a reason Peyton Manning lobbied for Jacob Tamme in Denver, and didn’t go to bat for Clark. One NFL scout recently told NFL Network’s Albert Breer that free agent TE Dallas Clark “might be done.”

    This isn’t a report that Clark might retire, but his skills going on age 33 have so eroded that he may no longer be able to help an NFL team. Clark can’t stay healthy, and he couldn’t have played worse last season. His numbers weren’t just down because Peyton Manning got hurt. Clark was the worst tight end in the NFL, getting destroyed as a blocker and dropping balls all over the field.

  7. OAR Says:

    We added 1000+ to our receiving yards with Jackson. Plus, maybe we can get a BLOCKING TE for this running game were going to have.

  8. OAR Says:

    Says a lot about your offense, when your Top receiver is a TE.
    Not anymore! New scheme and new era for our beloved Bucs!

  9. thegregwitul Says:

    Winslow was a problem last season in the development of the franchise QB, Josh Freeman. I understand that K2 plays hard, with passion and is focused and intense on the football field, giving his all each week and not missing games as a Buc, but I didn’t like some of his passionate displays toward Freeman last season. Combine that with a coaching staff that refused to implement any significant changes to a stagnant offense and Josh turned into an interception machine, with plenty of those INT’s being directed to Winslow, who seemed to be losing his cool more and more as the season (and losing) progressed.

    I’m not sure if there is a market for K2 but I’d venture to guess that he would re-negotiate his deal for reduced pay if the right team expressed interest. I wouldn’t hope for anything more than a 6th round pick, especially with those knees. Who knows, perhaps Dom can flip him to Dallas for the hometown boy, Mike Jenkins. It would at least provide more depth to the defense, and if Jenkins bounces back (I’m in the school of thought that believes Jenkins to be overrated and soft, but people can change) it could be a steal.

  10. MR.PATRICK Says:

    Winslow may have not missed a start, but every time he caught a pass and got tackled he signaled to come out of the game. Toughness? NOPE

  11. jvato24 Says:

    This may have alot to do with the system the Bucs will Run and what TEs are asked to do more than OTA attendance.

  12. Colorado Buc Says:

    The Giants lost 2 Tight Ends in their playoff run, could Winslow for Osi make sense? They want a 3rd rounder, we need a defensive end, could we compromise? We won’t get much for him, at least a year with Osi before his contract runs out would be better than cutting Winslow. Or sign my man Carter already. Makes me nervous how are D-line is shaping up

  13. Colorado Buc Says:

    Also Clark doesn’t make sense he is much older than Winslow, and he was never known as a blocker. I would guess the Bucs are looking for a blocking tight end for that run game.

  14. Snook Says:

    Trade him to Washington. K2 is another of Raheem’s favorites.

  15. thegregwitul Says:

    Regarding the possibility of Dallas Clark signing with the Bucs: I’m not against it, the move would likely be a one or two year stop gap, but I have to think that a blocking TE will be joining the roster soon.

    As fans we just need to keep in mind that it’s not about ‘trading’ out K2 for Clark. It’s about making a culture change, and while my post above details my feelings about K2 (hard worker, etc), if you go back and look at the tape, K2’s interactions with Freeman were tough on the eyes and it’s all about #5 regardless of who is the coach. You can tell the new staff feels the same way because the Bucs have been shopping K2 for months. His impending departure from Tampa Bay has nothing to do with his workout regiment, it’s all about chemistry on the football field, and last year we saw it hurt the team and the QB far too often.

    As a side note, I wonder how Thomas2.2 is feeling right now…He was posting a list of players he hoped would be dumped by the new regime and I think the only guy left on that list is Talib. And while unrelated, I think Dez Briscoe will be the next one out the door. I like the kid, but if the Bucs can say goodbye to K2 without another starting TE in place, I think Schiano and Co. will find it a lot easier to move on from a talented WR that is likely to be fifth on the depth chart.

  16. eric Says:

    Why is winslow excluded from the pass so many other players receive for 2011?

    This smells like a ray perkins my way or the highway move.

    Dont have to remind anyone how that one ended.

  17. TrueBlue Says:

    I don’t see Winslow as being all that tough. He wasn’t tough enough to block anyone. Sure it’s probably because he didn’t want to risk his knees. But that’s part of what toughness is.

  18. thegregwitul Says:

    Winslow is ‘excluded’ because of his direct impact on the development on Josh Freeman. I know it isn’t all on K2, Josh is his own man and let’s not forget the mediocre coaching…but, just go back and look at the tape. Yes, you’ll see tons of effort and passion from Winslow, you’ll see him do too much from time to time (the hurdle, for example) and you’ll see him in Freeman’s face all year, pressing him to throw the ball his way. To top that off, his comments this offseason regarding the coaching change wasn’t exactly ringing with endorsement, and this is a young team badly in need of order and accountability, which is why we are likely to see Briscoe on the way out and depending on how Talib’s trial goes, he could follow suit, although I think he makes it through this season.

  19. Architek Says:

    Get rid of him. Garbage and cannot win his one on one matchups. Goodbye soldier. Continue to clean house.

  20. Marques Says:

    I called this weeks ago. The only surprise was how long it took.

    Josh will be better off without him just like Manning without Shockey.

    In my opinion he had to go.

  21. eric Says:

    Freeman threw to k2 for lack of other targets.

    Good receivers want the ball and want to make plays. Watch our super bowl video and jerry rice yelling at gannon.

    Why didnt k2 ruin free in 2010?

    Truth be told ill bet josh hates the move.

  22. tampa2ali Says:

    v jackson had some of his best yrs with a tight end who demands double teams and at least a safety sliding to his side…. remember antonio gates…… u tell me how many other tight ends in the league catch 75 catches a yr and hasnt missed a game in 3 yrs…… thats what i call accountability

  23. thegregwitul Says:

    I don’t disagree with what you’re stating, eric, I have the Super Bowl DVD and remember the scene you’re referencing with Rice/Gannon. I have to wonder if Josh really hates the move, though, especially since we all know that K2 was shopped leading all the way up to the draft.

    In 2010, Mike Williams caught a lot of teams by surprise. In 2011, the opposing teams defense placed additional pressure on Williams, but more importantly, the Bucs coaching staff began to place Williams in different routes which resulted in a slight stepback. His sophomore numbers were a disappointment compared to his stellar rookie campaign, but they were still better than average. The man didn’t fall off the face of the Earth like Michael Clayton did after his rookie season.

    Add to it the bizarre abandonment of the running game early and often, the fact Kregg Lumpkin would be on the field for obvious passing downs and brought nothing to the table aside from allowing the opposing defense to know that it was a passing down, and K2’s frustration and it made for a very bad year. I didn’t want to admit it after the season, because I like the passion K2 has for the game and believe he has talent, but once the new coaching staff was put into place, it was only a matter of time before Winslow was on his way out of Tampa. Sometimes you can have addition by subtraction and this is what is happening here, and in the long run, I think the Bucs and Freeman end up being a lot better.

    Don’t forget, Josh has a legit number one target in Vincent Jackson, someone who wasn’t on the team last season, someone who should see the bulk of Freeman’s passes, someone who would have cut deeply into K2’s catch total. If there was no upgrade at wideout this season, the move would have been puzzling, but with a number one target, perhaps the staff was worried about another K2 meltdown if he didn’t see the ball enough, and we don’t need any more meltdowns or collapses.

  24. kgh4life Says:

    Kellen is not explosive like he once was, however, the Bucs could always count on him to give his best every sunday and produce. In his three seasons with the bucs Kellen caught: 77, 66, and 75 balls respectively, for a tight-end that’s a lot of production that will be missing from the offense. Now the rumor is they want to replace him with Dallas Clark. Clark cannot be counted on, he is too injury prone and older, that’s a bad combination. Even though Kellen has knee problems he was always in the line up.

  25. Bucnjim Says:

    Winslow was just another individual in a team sport. Everyone knows it’s all about him and what he wants. This is not a coachable player just like Haynesworth is not a coachable player. They go out and do what they feel like doing. No more and no less! This is a cancer that should have been removed and was.

  26. teacherman777 Says:

    With Vincent Jackson around, we dont need Winslow anymore.

    Given: hes a decent catch passing TE. But are offense is going to feature our WR’s more than a TE.

    Also, we need Blocking TE’s more these days.

    Finally, this is great for Josh Freeman!

    He needs to get KW off his shadow!!

    Vincent Jackson is the new King of this offense!

    Good luck Kellen! You were a great TE! Bestof luck buddy!

  27. Paul Says:

    Why would we replace him with an older, less productive TE that is injury prone.

  28. BucFan20 Says:

    Freeman is Freeman. Quit making up excuses for him. First it was Blount now it’s Winslow. Why not add everyone on offense except FREEMAN. Wait. He mastered the offense. Nothing was his fault. Nobody hindered him. He can’t read a defense, not accurate with a pass and not a top NFL QB. All he ever will be . He is average at best.

  29. Bobby Says:

    We got rid of Winslow…so friggin what??? If we didn’t have Jackson I would call it a problem but you have a 6’5″ WR in Jackson. How many TE’s are that size?? You need a big target in the red zone..hey! There’s V-Jax. What will happen now is the other TE’s on the roster will be put into service for their blocking ability and they will also get plenty of catches. Production will not fall off without Winslow. It’s his ATTITUDE that had to go, not so much his play on the field.

  30. Thomas2.2 Says:

    Dallas Clark is head and shoulders superior as a pass catching TE, nobody is worse as a blocker and teammate.

    The team improved by asking him not to return even though his trade value is 0. The team will also improve by Talib’s incarceration.

  31. Paul Says:

    Do we know what the contract is? I expect Clark to produce for this year, but geeze, how much can you expect past the age of 32…Maybe he can show Stocker how to be an NFL TE.

    Winslow hasn’t attended a single practice when we have a brand new scheme? That’s garbage and he shouldn’t even be in the NFL.