Mark Dominik Haters Want Bucs To Lose

August 18th, 2011

Myopic Bucs fans who refuse to have an open mind and look the other way when clear facts are presented them have been getting out of hand of late.

These “fans” who want Bucs rock star general manager Mark Dominik to go wilding with Team Glazer’s American Express card and sign every warm body allowable by NFL warden Roger Goodell with a name fans recognize from their fantasy football leagues have become delirious if not unruly with their hate.

Why, Joe has even heard otherwise sober fans have the gall to suggest Dominik should have signed Braylon Edwards if you can imagine such a thing.

How crazy are these fans? Virtually each day Joe hears them shout at Joe’s good friend “The Big Dog,” Steve Duemig, calling him unflattering names. Joe has even learned these same ne’er–do–wells heckled Anwar Richardson and Woody Cummings of the Tampa Tribune at Bucs training camp, as if Duemig, Richardson and Cummings can force Dominik to draw up a horribly irresponsible player contract.

Well, the lightbulb turned on in pondering this mob mentality that wants Dominik to channel his inner Danny Snyder. These people actually want the Bucs to lose. Joe figured this while reading a piece from NFC South blogger Pat Yasinskas.

It seems the last time the Bucs breached the salary cap, in 2003, they were losers.

Records from that season show the Bucs actually spent over the salary cap. Their adjusted cap for that year was $75.443 million. They exceeded it by $1,104.58 — a figure that would be shaved from their 2004 cap.

So what did all that spending get the Bucs? An incredibly-disappointing 7-9 record that was good for third place in the NFC South. It also marked the first time since 1998 that Tampa Bay didn’t make the playoffs. And the season was filled with all sorts of controversy.

So it is now clear to Joe: The loud crowd willing to blame Team Glazer for everything including their neighbor’s dog dropping a deposit in their front yard are closet Saints fans or Dixie Chicks fans or Stinkin’ Panthers fans, to steal an NHL line away from the Great GOB, the late great Chris Thomas.

That’s the only logical explanation to Joe. What Bucs fan would actually want their team to remain in third place?

85 Responses to “Mark Dominik Haters Want Bucs To Lose”

  1. Flip Flopper Says:

    I haven’t lived in Tampa since the beginning of the millennium (high school), so I have no feeling on the typical sentiment of a local fan…

    Joe – Do you really believe a significant portion of the fanbase is unhappy with the way the team is being managed? Or is it just a fringe of unreasonable dopes? I’d be extremely disappointed if even half of Tampa felt this negatively about Dominik’s strategy and, coupled with the blackouts, would suggest that bay area is no longer a true football town.

  2. flmike Says:

    Joe, these “Fans” are the same as the low information voter who votes against their own best interests out of fear.

  3. Kirk Says:

    Joe, you know as well as I, that some fans here look for the negative in things like there is a reward for it.
    I like the way the Buccaneers are doing things. Keep up the good work “Rock Star”.

  4. Matt Says:

    I think that the media is fueling this ‘Glazer’s are cheap’ thing more than the fans at this point. The fans have seen the team sign Penn and Joseph to huge contracts in the past two years. It seems pretty obvious to anyone who is paying attention that the Bucs have no problem locking up their guys to long term contracts if they believe they are deserving.

    Unfortunately, we went through a quadruple whammy of:
    2002-2008 –> Generally terrible drafting, resulting in very few high-quality drafted Bucs to lock up
    2002-2007 –> Salary Cap Hell from the late 90s early 00s
    2008-2010 –> Prepping for the lockout
    2009-2011 –> Change in philosophy focusing on draft

    All of these things combined to produce a team that didn’t hand out a bunch of big contracts.

    Things are different now, and I believe you’ll continue to see the Bucs hand out 2-3 large contracts each offseason to keep their guys.

    Mark my words, we’ll be pretty darn close to the cap come 2012 and 2013.

  5. Brandon Says:

    Uhhh, Braylon Edwards signed with the 49ers about a week ago. Now if a fan is asking that we sign him, it just shows how uninformed they are.

  6. Architek Says:

    Here is my outlook. The Bucs are still considered to be a young franchise compared to others. The Bucs prior regime were a veteran laden team that people knew about and had some controversy, which is what the masses love. Well with the new regime and the way change came all of a sudden people in the Tampa region were rocked because they no longer had the point of reference to identify with and they swayed. (young fan base overall)

    When Dominik and Raheem revealed their vision people didn’t buy it but after two drafts we saw some succeeds and people had that relation problem again. They can’t identify with the young guys so the point of reference is the Glazers. Well the third draft comes and the leadership is now showing that they are serious about the long term plan and people sqawk when we don’t sign older players because there is no internal drama or anything that will attract controversy. It appears that the team leadership has a harmonious operation with a few knuckleheads on the roster.

    I personally love what’s going on because people don’t realize the statistics of winning a championship increases when you repeatedly qualify for the playoffs. No its no guaranty but its a low standard of deviation that will render better long term results. I know some fans here always spin things negatively but the truth is the Glazers are successful businessmen. Why invest in old stock or old commodities? Return on investment is all about smart moves and innovation which is why the Bucs have wisely spent their money. The Tampa region is struggling economically but thats not the bottomline. The bottomline is the Glazers are doing what the larger markets are doing and they are smart for that because Tampa’s demographic makeup isn’t such. Smart money and selective investing is why the Bucs organization will ascend. The fans will come because just like stubs here people will follow the trend.

  7. Freeman4President Says:

    Mark Dominik Haters (Thomas 2.2) Want Bucs To Lose

  8. SkookumSmitty Says:

    I don’t know about that, FlipFlopper, but I do know this:

    “Fringe of Unreasonable Dopes” would be a great name for a band.

  9. 1BUCFAN Says:

    @Matt @Achitect Great post! 100% spot on!

  10. CalicoJack Says:

    Guess all the Gruden haters wanted the Bucs to lose, too…

  11. rhenry Says:

    Great post Matt, I agree. Most of the crying about the salary cap comes from the media. I for one love the approach Dominick has taken. Super Bowl Bound Tampa Bay. By the way, Yasinkas is a turd.

  12. CreamsicleBananaHammock Says:

    Oh give me a break with this nonsense

    I don’t really give a crap how much the Glazers spend…..I just want to see this team get better.

    Would this team have been better with Vonta Leach at FB than Earnest Graham? Would this team have been better with Darren Sproles or Ahmad Bradshaw as our second RB or Kregg Lumpkin? Would this team have been better with Nnamdi Asomuga at CB & Ronde playing only the slot?

    Only an idiot would answer any of those questions with a “no”.

  13. Greg Says:

    There is no such thing as a fan that wants their team to lose.
    A fan can be realistic and accept that loses are likely to come but if you openly root for them to happen you are simply not a fan and should not be referred to as such.

    As a fan you should be wanting the best no matter what your expections are.

  14. Teddy Says:

    Thanks, Brandon. Glad someone’s paying attention.

  15. Thomas 2.2 Says:

    What a worthless article with factual inaccuracies. Nobody believes the payroll and not the play on the field, caused 7-9. Factors like an aging defense that routinely made the playoffs for 8 years, or injuries, or bounces of the ball, decions by players etc didnt matter, just the payroll. How idiotic. I would delete this nonsense bc it really colors opinions.

  16. Matt Says:

    @CreamsicleBananaHammock: There is some truth to that on the surface.

    However, the problem is it doesn’t gel with what this team is trying to do. If we are selling players that they all have the chance to play, that the best man wins, that we’re promoting youth and a draft-based team…

    …then you go and push Ronde out of a starting role with an outsider over 30…
    …you give up development on your two young FBs…
    …you throw away your 6th round pick and the promising Lumpkin…

    What happens is all the guys in the locker room question what you said. They wonder if they’ll be given a realistic shot.

    I’m not saying I don’t partially agree with you, I just think that’s the reasoning.

  17. Joe Says:

    Flip Flopper:

    Joe – Do you really believe a significant portion of the fanbase is unhappy with the way the team is being managed?

    Oh my gosh, yes.

  18. Matt Says:

    @Thomas 2.2: “Nobody believes the payroll and not the play on the field, caused 7-9. Factors like an aging defense”

    Wait, an aging defense? You don’t think that having an aging defense had anything to do with not being able to sign younger free agents to long-term contracts because of the salary cap??

    (Actually, the FIRST reason why the defense was so old was because we didn’t have draft picks in 2000-2002 to replenish the stock…but the salary cap was reason #2.)

  19. Matt Says:

    @Joe: “Oh my gosh, yes.”

    How about you put up a poll on your site?

    My guess is that over 80% would be completely happy with how this team is being managed.

  20. CreamsicleBananaHammock Says:

    I agree with you Matt

    I’ve been one of the most vocal critics of this team during FA, but that doesn’t mean overall I haven’t been extremely pleased/impressed with what Rah & Dom have done

  21. Jaime Says:

    I thought Braylon Edwards signed almost a month ago. That’s a little surprising that he’s still mentioned by local fans…

    Joe, why do I get the sense you hang out in bars with a bunch of drunken, redneck, armchair GMs and QBs? And why do you keep going back? I hate people like that, and I like getting drunk like anyone.

  22. Dave Says:

    There are people who are just simply negative and complain about EVERYTHING.

    We know who these people are on this site and my guess is they are like that in life in general.

    The Bucs have done a REMARKABLE job in 2 years, now entering year 3, of a rebuilding process. From day one they have stated it will be done with youth and mostly through the draft.

    Anyone whining about free agents and not getting this is either ignorant or blind to the reality that is working and is a proven blue print that has worked for the last 20 years since free agency came to the NFL.

  23. 1BUCFAN Says:

    @Matt Once again A+ for great post.

  24. Joe Says:

    Joe, why do I get the sense you hang out in bars with a bunch of drunken, redneck, armchair GMs and QBs? And why do you keep going back? I hate people like that, and I like getting drunk like anyone.


  25. nick Says:

    @Matt, in order to get a real accurate number on that poll you would have to go beyond JBF. I think if it was just JBF it would be 80% but beyond, the numbers would be more balanced

  26. Macabee Says:

    I support Dominik’s strategy. It think it is the proper way to rebuild a team and keep it together long enough to pay dividends. While I believe it to proper, it has inherent risks. It only works if you have a franchise QB to build around and their religious adherence to it makes it an “all in” strategy. By that I mean they have to win. They cannot lose or take a step back or the fan and media scrutiny will be brutal. Rebuilding implies at some point – rebuilt. It is illogical to assume they go back to the draft each year until we’re replacing 25yr olds with 21 yr olds. They have the franchise QB, now all they have to do is win.

  27. Champ Kind Says:

    I think it is a very vocal minority who are actually unhappy with what the Bucs are doing. People make much more of a stink when they are pissed than when they are content.

    There are always going to be idiots out there. A guy in our section at the night practice was actually trying to heckle Freeman! He compared him to Testaverde!

    I am glad that the supporters continue to speak up, but I dont think the haters are as rampant as they appear.

  28. Bobby Says:

    I think the question you should be asking is not why fans would want the bucs to finish third, but why would ownership accept a third place finish in the division, fans want success they why have cried for the Team to look for guys who could make the team better, that has been the plea for ever, it wasnt about spending that drove us crazy, it was the idea that ownership is telling us, that there was only a punter out there that could make our team better, that is insane, they have basically told the people of tampa that as bucs fans we are not allowed to have an opinion but that we should just shut up and show up for the games, and that they could care less what we think.

  29. Matt Says:

    @nick You’re probably right. To get more accurate results it would probably have to be in the Times or something.

  30. Eric Says:

    You can fool some of the people some of the time.

    Your right Joe, the “facts” speak for themselves. Love how you pick the 2003 season, the year after we won a little thing called the Super Bowl, with a team built through the draft and free agency, and trades.

    Only the most successful team in bucs history.

    Asked another way, was the most successful team in bucs history built the way dom/glazer boys are doing it? Of course not. The Glazers of 2002 are entirely different than the glazers of 2011.

    Fans in Tampa are far smarter than you give them credit for, and us “dissenters” do not want the team to lose, we love the team.

    What is this – a Glazer love fest? Pitiful, just pitiful………………….

  31. OAR Says:

    (Actually, the FIRST reason why the defense was so old was because we didn’t have draft picks in 2000-2002 to replenish the stock…but the salary cap was reason #2.)

    I agree, but it goes beyond those 2000-2002 years
    2000 traded our 2 first round picks for Keyshawn.
    2001 traded an extra first and our second round picks for Kenyatta Walker.
    2002 traded our first and second round picks for Gruden.
    2003 traded first round for Gruden.
    2004 traded second for Gruden.

  32. FLBoyInDallas Says:

    2.2: if the payroll wasn’t a factor in 7-9 but the play on the field was, then the payroll likewise can’t be a factor in a potential 12-4 but the play on the field will be. Right? Can’t have it both ways. Gotta be consistent in applying your principles. But of course you don’t have principles, do you…just negative emotions.

  33. Four Fingered Fisherman Says:

    Some people just don’t have a clue I guess. There’s always going to be a few bad apples trying to ruin it for everyone else. Why let them?

    It might be a little early for this, but maybe we need to change Dominik’s nickname to “Rock God”, because he has done nothing short of work miracles for this team, and we have the Head Coach to make this come to fruition.

  34. FLBoyInDallas Says:

    Eric: to answer your question, yes, the 2002 team was built at the beginning the same way the Bucs are currently doing it. Only when they were certain they were close to being able to compete deep into the playoffs did they add some key missing pieces via other avenues than the draft.

    Dominik & Raheem have made it clear that when they miss in the draft, or can’t fill the holes through the draft, they will hit up the free agent & trade markets. They’ve also said when the team is ready to make a deep playoff run they will also add any key missing pieces via the same route.

    Why don’t you people listen? There is a plan and it’s moving forward whether or not you agree.

  35. Bobby Says:

    Why dont you listen dallas, they dont care what you think, no true fan wants their team to lose, they just want to be a part of what is happening, Have you ever said, we will win, or we will do this or do that. The fans want to be a part, but all we are being told is to sit down and shutup. We accept players into our hearts and put in an emotional investment and when players are discarded like pieces of trash, it affects the fan base, as one previous blogger wrote, are we looking at pieces now that will just be replaced by new draft picks four years from now. Mr. Rockstar is telling the fan base shut up, i know what im doing and you are just stupid and just are some stupid hick, who doesnt know any better, make sure though you leave your money at the counter,and have a great day.

  36. thomas 2.2 Says:

    Being a factor and “the” factor are very different. Of course developments on the field matter. For example, last year do to unusual circumstances the bucs had an unbelievably easy schedule. Not just the teams on the schedule, but when the bucs drew them re: best qb being injured. That contributed more to 10-6 than anything else outside of Josh Freeman.

    Conversely, the bucs went 3-13 with the lowest payroll in the league, by Joe’s flawed logic, the payroll and not the horrible coaching was solely to blame. No, there were many factors, horrible head coaching, poor talent, disorganization etc.

  37. WeNeedDefense Says:

    in 2003… Their adjusted cap for that year was $75.443 million.

    In 2010 their payroll was ~50 million.


  38. MOBucs Says:

    The examples are numerous as to why spending tons of money in FA is not wise. The Redskins and Cowboys of the last few years come to mind. Teams that are lasting contenders (Packers, Steelers, Indy, etc.) know how to develop talent very well and rarely miss on draft picks. Team continuity is the most undervalued aspect of winning teams.

  39. BecklesHeartsRuud Says:

    Morons all of them. They just want a big name because they DON’T KNOW HOW FOOTBALL WORKS. If the Bucs signed Lady Gaga to play for them these moronic fans would cheer. They just want some name from another team and they honestly think that will make this team better. No thought to the fact that the Steelers and Packers do things EXACTLY the way the Bucs are doing them. Who cares what these dumbass fans think. When the Pigeons and Asomoooooooooga and their whole patchwork team fail to win the Super Bowl this year you free agency dopes can all kiss my @$$!

  40. thomas 2.2 Says:

    Yes Rod Woodson and Ryan Picket weren’t important players for the Packers Defense last year. lol

    The Steelers had key free agents also, um like James Farrior for example. BTW – there are plenty of other examples of teams who won super bowls largely because of acquisitions outside of the draft like the 2010 Saints, 2001 Rams and, um, the 2002 BUCCANEERS! Heard of them right.

    The error is not free agency you idiots, the error is misjudging and poorly coaching the free agents (we might have the second problem). Dan Snyder will never be able to evaluate talent, it is not the method of acquiring players that he screws up, it is his analysis.

    Apparently, Sean Payton and Andy Reed and Rex Ryan are not as football acute as you guys and fail to win in this league bc they embrace the FA and trade process. LOL. You guys are just justifying and supporting being cheap. You have the right to do that and the Glazer kids love you for it – so they will continue to be surpassed in talent by the Saints, Falcons, Eagles etc in our division and conference.

  41. Four Fingered Fisherman Says:


    To go along with Matt’s great points. There is no denying that some of those players you listed (Leach, Asomugha, Sproles etc.) might have more ability and talent and might be better “football” players. They also might not fit our system and what we want to do. They also come at a much steeper price. And if we did sign those guys, not only are we back to 2002 again and the cap troubles that followed soon after, but we WILL NOT have the money to sign the guys that we all like, that are here right now, when their time comes to get paid. Ala Freeman, Williams, Blount, Grimm, Hayes, Okam, Zuttah, Bennett possibly Talib and Jackson, and even further down the line (which as a smart businessman, you have to think about the future now) guys like, Briscoe, Benn, Roy Miller.

    Maybe you just don’t like our big signings this year, Davin Joseph and Michael Koenen? Last year Donald Penn? The year before Kellen Winslow (I know this was a trade, but we still had to sign the guy or waste draft picks)? If thats the case then of course you would want other guys from other teams because we wouldn’t have the money to pay these guys. Maybe you just like Mckay’s or Allen’s approach better than Dominiks’. Maybe you don’t want Freeman, Williams or Blount back. Or the pivotal role players and special teams guys we signed back this year and will need to sign in the future. Maybe you don’t like some of the best draft classes and 7th round steals we seem to have a knack for under Dominik and this regime. Maybe you don’t like Raheem and the fact that he doesn’t mind getting a puppy dog and the hard work it comes with training them, rather than just getting an adult dog that doesn’t require as much attention and work? Especially with the CBA the way it is now, paying draft picks is much cheaper than going into the free agent “buyer beware” pool. Maybe you just don’t like this team or the players we have on it. But everyone around the league and people associated with the game seems to think we have the most talented young team in the league. Remember we are trying to build a lasting contender here for years to come. How many times does this have to be stated? If you don’t like the direction this team is headed, and news flash, everybody is drinking the Kool-aid (people associated much closer to the game than we are…you even heard Brian Billick say it during the Cheifs game and he called many of our games last year first hand), then you sir are blind.

    Rome wasn’t built in a day, but it was torn down in 20 minutes.

  42. FLBoyInDallas Says:

    2.2: if the Bucs place 1st or 2nd in the division and make the playoffs this season, even with a tough schedule and a “low” payroll, are you going to publicly eat your words? I hope so because I can easily see it coming. You’re setting yourself up for a big fall in front of everyone here. Good luck.

  43. Four Fingered Fisherman Says:

    And I like the way the Colts and Patriots and Steelers are doing it, rather than the Cowboys and Redskins. I mean those are the examples that we have to base those opinions off of?

    And if you say those teams still signed free agents, remember they are a few years ahead of our rebuilding project?

  44. FLBoyInDallas Says:

    Bobby: you are saying exactly what I thought was the real motive behind the haters all along. Namely, that these “fans” want to be “a part” of the decision-making process and they feel left out because they aren’t getting their way. I suspected it was really just a childish sense of entitlement and you’ve confirmed it.

    And you’re wrong…the Bucs don’t want you to sit down and shut up. They want you to stand up and cheer your team. They changed the program because the previous program wasn’t working. Big deal. Time to get over it.

    Your little Sunday Ticket, Game Rewind, $35 cheap seat or even your season tickets don’t entitle you to have a “say” in management. How ridiculous. This is exactly what Joe has been saying about the current fantasy football mentality where everyone thinks they have a “right” or a “say”. Go home.

  45. FLBoyInDallas Says:

    Just because I buy an iPod doesn’t mean I have a say in running the Apple corporation. I can’t believe I even need to point that out. Damn.

  46. Eric Says:

    Dom is great.
    Rah is great.
    Glazers are great.
    Plan is great.
    Team is great.

    Can’t wait.

    Battle Hyme of the sheep.

  47. thomas 2.2 Says:


    If they make the playoffs and compete, not even win, but compete against another deserving playoff squad – I will give the plan credit. I believe that most of the credit should go to Free and Dom because it will be an accomplishment to do that with such mediocre and young talent outside of Free, Williams, Talib and a few others Penn, Winslow, old Ronde. Also Olson gets a lot of credit from me.

    Remember, I have sais repeatedly, if Free continues to improve upon last year, he and he alone gives them a chance to win many games. Unfortunately, those chances won’t be converted into wins often enough until you utilize all means to supplement the talent on your roster. If nothing more than to fill a few gaps, and provide depth and insurance.

  48. Capt.Tim Says:

    I don’t believe anyone who post here regularly isn’t a fan. I’m on board with what the team is doing! I’m a huge supporter of the young team we’ve assembled, and excited about the future!!!
    I don’t agree with every tiny lil decission the team has made, but they’ve earned my trust. Even if they’ve made a few wrong choices, it was with the right intentions. Listen, I’m a passionate guy who respects loyalty above almost all else- but that didn’t mean closing your eyes to things ou question. I’m a big “God, Country, and Family” person. The country and even the Family isn’t perfect. If I critize the Country, it means there are things that need improved!! It doesn’t mean I won’t be first in line to Defend her!
    Being a fan is like that! If you’re passionate about your team , you have opinions. But I know the team, management, and fellow posters here at joeBuc may be more knowledgeable. I post my opinions, because I love the team! I’m always willing to accept I may be wrong.
    I think Eric and Thomas love the Bucs. They have facts that they feel are concrete proof that we are building the team the wrong way, so they complain. Are they right? I sure don’t think so most of the time, but they are sometimes. At least the keep the discussions lively.
    For all The Buc love going around, this is NOT the way we build the SuperBowl team! That team had at least 10 starters that were acquired thru free agency! Is that the right way? Time will tell, but I like our team now, and feel good about it’s future. We’ll all see together. Right now, what we need is faith- and I believe!

  49. McBuc Says:

    FLBoy…Exactly…Bobby, welcome to the adult world. Go cheer for this exciting team.

  50. McBuc Says:

    Bobby, Thank GOD Dom dies not let the fans make draft or FA decisions, or we would be stuck with Teebow and freeman would be playing somewhere else.

  51. SteveK Says:

    His Joeness,

    After careful review only 2.2% on ppl are unsatisfied with Rah and Dom. 2.2% aka Thomas 2.2%

  52. nick Says:


    Factors like an aging defense that routinely made the playoffs for 8 years, or injuries, or bounces of the ball, decions by players etc didnt matter, just the payroll.


    Let’s see where do I start? Before you contradict yourself any further I will remind you that you are making the same excuses for Chucky that you won’t make for Rah. Aging D? Brooks and Sapp were the oldest drafted in ’95. 7 years is aging? And the first playoff appearance as a group was ’97. I’ll give you injuries. The Colts game was the beginning of the end but Rah lost half his starters last year. Decisions by players? I assume you mean when Keyshawn decided to deactivate himself? Call me crazy but I don’t see Mike Williams having that kind of tirade with Rah. Bounces of the Ball. Hey, that Kickoff return from Atlanta last year started with a funny hop. No funny hop, gunners stay in their lanes, we make the playoffs and you are bored because you have nothing to bitch about

  53. BecklesHeartsRuud Says:

    WHAT A COMPLETE MORON!!!!! Nice try 2.2 brain cells. I think you will find that Rod Woodson retired some time ago. Enjoy trying to pretend that was a typo and that you actually really do know the difference between Rod Woodson and Charles Woodson. Oh and talking about the Steelers. JAMES FARRIOR!!! Really. Thats one guy dude. ONE GUY!

    Thanks for proving that you know absolutely nothing about football. What did you do? You just vaguely knew that the Packers had signed some CB named Woodson something so you googled “football player Woodson” and when Rod Woodson’s name came up you were like “I guess thats the guy”. Feel free to leave and go start posting on some support group for retards forum where you belong.

  54. thomas 2.2 Says:

    Flboy and the rest of the Glazer fan club:

    Does that mean that is this team finishes 3rd again, misses the playoffs for the third straight year, Rah Rah has something like a 20 – 28 career record, that you guys will acknowledge that Eric and I and others are right?

    Remember, we don’t hate everything that they are doing (If I can speak for the rational), we just believe that if they supplemented what they were doing by spending money on the right free agents and if they had a legitimate (not bargain) head coach three years ago, that we would not have to wait until year 4 or beyond to watch a playoff game.

  55. FLBoyInDallas Says:

    If they don’t show major improvement, miss the playoffs and generally leave us with unfulfilled expectations I will give you some credit for being more correct than I thought. I’m not above that.

    This all has to happen without numerous injuries to key players, though. If we lose guys like Freeman, Blount, Williams, Foster, Clayborn then all bets are off. At that point it’s impossible to evaluate the real causes of a bad season.

  56. Four Fingered Fisherman Says:


    I agree with you man and I will always be thankful for Mckay and his crew below him (and of course the Glazers) bringing us that Championship Team of 2002. January, 26th 2003 was a glorious day for all Bucs’ fans. But the years that followed, not so much. I wouldn’t want to go through that again and Dominik doesn’t want us to either. Mckay got us in major cap trouble and traded many draft picks away (2 1st for Keyshawn). By doing the aforementioned route and trying to get us over the hump instead of building a lasting conteder, it led to the release of guys like Sapp and Lynch. If we do the same now, it will happen again. Look at the Falcons now with Mckay (coincidentally) as team president. They payed big time money for Dunta Robinson last year and this year they trade all their draft picks away for Julio Jones. I’m sensing something, its looks good now, but wait a couple years. Not saying the Falcons are a bad organization or a bad team, but I like the “Patriots (as much as I hate them) way” a lot better. Do you really like or believe the way the Falcons are doing things is better than our current way? We are a year behind their “rebuilding” project so to speak, although they are taking a slightly different route, and we should have beat them both times last year if not at least once. Even if you don’t think we should have won those games last year, we are still almost neck and neck with them, albeit a year behind and we are not going to be in risky, if not murky waters like them in a few years.

  57. admin Says:

    Joe here,

    @Thomas 2.2 — This post is not about expectations. No playoffs in 2011 = missed goal. And barring a major injury to Freeman, no playoffs will put Raheem squarely on a playoffs-or-go plan for 2012. That’s just the NFL.

    But you and others will not embrace 10-6 with a young team with legitimate talent. Joe felt Yasinskas talking 2003 money was an opportunity to slap the skeptics.

  58. nick Says:

    Does that mean that is this team finishes 3rd again, misses the playoffs for the third straight year, Rah Rah has something like a 20 – 28 career record, that you guys will acknowledge that Eric and I and others are right?


    No. Why? Because we’re talking about a team full of 20 somethings who have time and need time. We’re not talking about the Todd Stussies, Charlie Garners, Tim Browns, Chris Hovans, Kevin Carters, Jeff Garcias of the world. When Rah and Dom took over, I said give them 3 years of building and in the fourth we can make our evaluations. By the way, that “legitimate” head coach that everyone wanted is scratching his own chin

  59. BecklesHeartsRuud Says:

    No response Thomas the village idiot? Too embarassed? Did you manage to google and find out which Woodson actually plays for the Packers yet?

    I noticed how you said if the Bucs made the playoffs you would give credit to basically everyone but Raheem Morris.

    This speaks to a hatred for the man that clearly has nothing to do with coaching ability. Regardless of what theam does you won’t support Raheem Morris. Such hatred of the man must come from somewhere ugly.

    Your agenda is as plain as day to anyone who reads even slightly between the lines with you. You don’t think a young black man who speaks with some street slang occasionally should be coaching the team. Its obvious this is how you feel when you put Morris down for his imperfect grammar and street lingo. Why else would you would you be so categorically against the man?

    Its you clear you don’t hate the man for being a bad football coach. So either you hate him because he did something to you personally. Or you hate him for what he is.

    You need to take your routine somewhere else. Arguing with you isn’t fun when your side of the argument comes from such an ugly place.

  60. BecklesHeartsRuud Says:

    And just to be clear. I have been reading your posts for a few months now even before I started commenting and its perfectly clear you HATE the man. Not the typical fan sick of a losing coach hate. Real HATRED. Go take your ugly hatred somewhere else. Coming up with the ridiculously constructed arguments that you do to hide your agenda isn’t working dude. I see right through you.

  61. nick Says:

    And, last week, although preseason, we saw two head coaches who were hired as head coaches in the same year. One HC, who had never been a coordinator, had his team prepared and one HC who was an OC didn’t. That was plain to see

  62. FLBoyInDallas Says:

    Beckles: you are right on. I’ve seen the same irrational hatred toward Raheem from a small minority of fans for some time now. I agree it comes from exactly the place you described. He’s pretty much the opposite of Jon Gruden and these people simply can’t get past that. You’re right…it’s ugly, and just because they don’t have the guts to say it openly doesn’t make it any more acceptable.

  63. Four Fingered Fisherman Says:

    @MOBucs –

    I didn’t realize in one of my earlier responses that you had basically said the same thing:

    “The examples are numerous as to why spending tons of money in FA is not wise. The Redskins and Cowboys of the last few years come to mind. Teams that are lasting contenders (Packers, Steelers, Indy, etc.) know how to develop talent very well and rarely miss on draft picks. Team continuity is the most undervalued aspect of winning teams.”

    But, that last line is sooo true my friend. Well said!

  64. Bobby Says:

    Has i have said before, when the team finishes 8-8, and third in the division, i hope you guys stand by what you are saying. No playoff wins since the superbowl win, These guys must win or this year is a disappointment, This regime has no track record that shows success other than the 10-6,that got them a third place finish in the division, if that makes all you guys happy, then great , enjoy the season, But remember if by there words, its a four year plan, so i guess when you get a third place schedule and improve again, we can all hope that the falcons and saints have a bad year, next year (year four) so we can get in the playoffs. Being Mediocre is not ok,

  65. BecklesHeartsRuud Says:

    Bobby- from 3-13 to 10-6 with all the hope in the world of making the playoffs this year. What exactly are you b#tching about? Got PMS dudette?

  66. Four Fingered Fisherman Says:


    I get the sense this is the case as well. Yes he may not speak with the best grammer or fluidity and uses street lingo on occasion, but that’s usually a byproduct of where and how you grew up. Still, it has nothing to do with the man himself. Look where he grew up in Irvington, NJ (not far from Newark), where the crime rate is some 8 times higher than the average of the rest of the state of NJ. Irvington High, where he went to school was ranked 307th out of 316 High Schools in the state at the time. Two years prior to that, it ranked 316. They also had metal detectors at the entrance of the school. I’m sure the education given at the school and the area was not even close to par. Sadly, they had other things to worry about. Still, his personality which we all love and have grown to admire, and if you don’t, then you just don’t like people, comes from that same place he grew up…in Irvington. At least he was smart enough to realize, the streets of Irvington is not the life he wanted to live, and he’s done a pretty good job of getting out of there and getting a college education in the process. I think anyone would say that. I wouldn’t change a thing about the man and no one is going to be perfect.

  67. Hawaiian Buc Says:


    How many times must it be stated that they had the same schedule as the other teams in our division, minus two games? The same thing applies this season. So please stop using the lame “third place schedule” argument. Learn how the NFL scheduling works first, it’s really not that hard.

  68. Capt.Tim Says:

    Last spring, none of these “diehard” fans were posting here. None Of the the guys trashing Eric and Thomas where defending the Team. Or Dominick. Or Raheem. Or the Glazers. There were some of the regulars- Hawaiian, BigMac, gotBucs, Lakeland Bob, oar, etc. But the haters RULED this site. Their was one voice that constantly defended the Team- JimBuc!!and they tormented him like a heretic. Its nice everyone has jumped on the bandwagon, but before everyone starts singing kum bi ya and taking hot showers together, let’s remember one thing.

    We haven’t won anything yet. I’m guzzling koolaide like most of you, but we are betting on potential- not results. We like what we see, but if the team goes 8-8 this year, most of you will
    flip to haters in a heartbeat. You know it, I know it.

    I believe Freeman is a franchise QB. I believe our D-line will be scary in a few years. Buuuut, alot of faith going into this. If you don’t believe there were free agents available, who could have helped this team- you’re nuts. They say we are patterning ourselves after the Steelers, Packers, and Patriots. But they all signed free agents! . Like I said, we build our SuperBowl winning te thru the Draft( Brooks, Sapp,Lynch, Barber), but mostly thru free agency( Brad Johnson,Keyshawn Johnson, Roman Oben, Michael Pittman, Keenan MacCardell, Kerry Jenkins, Ken Dilger, jurivicious, Simeon Rice, Cato June, Philip Buchanon, and more I’ve forgotten)

    So before we preach how great the “Build only thru the Draft” system is, let’s see if it really works or not!! I don’t know of any team that is treating Free agency like a curse but this one. Before we annout all parties involved to sainthood and the Hall of Fame, let’s do better than 3rd place first- shall we?
    I believe to, be it’s getting to zealot levels around here. Let’s heaP praise when we’ve actually accomplished something.

    GO BUCS!!

  69. Four Fingered Fisherman Says:


    Seriously, you do have a case of a leaky female body part. So your telling me when the regime changed, that you would have expected a 10-6 season two years removed with the youngest coach, youngest team and lowest payroll last year. Your crazy dude! We all knew it was going to take time. Even the Glazers along with Dominik and Morris knew it wasn’t going to be a popular approach and it would take a few years. They are either ahead of the curve or right along pace with it however you look at it. This isn’t the oldest coach and with oldest team and highest payroll thats only going to be good for another year or two. We are young, have money stashed away to give our young guys their paydays when the time comes, and are primed to make a run for the next 10 years at the pace we are on. As well, we are coming off a 10 win season that nobody predicted (that was supposed to happen this year). I would love to know what you and guys like Thomas predicted our record to be last year. What are you not excited about? Seriously? I totally understand trying to be different and having your own opinions, but you all are starting to sound a little addlepated.

    Quit the Tomfoolery, you nincompoops! Your only fooling yourselves!

  70. MOBucs Says:

    Thanks Four Fingered Fisherman. I’m not against adding a couple FAs to put the team over the edge. Thomas is right about the Packers adding Charles Woodson (not Rod). My point is that the vast majority of the playmakers on the teams I mentioned were drafted in house. There is no arguing that this philosophy is how you win championships. The Bucs finally have a GM that knows how to evaluate young talent and draft accordingly. I think most of the fans against Dom’s plan are just impatient people. I’ve bought into the “building a lasting contender” montra after witnessing the progress this team has made in 2 seasons of a complete rebuild. I’m confident that within the next couple seasons even unconscionable ball-breakers like Thomas will have a hard time finding things to bitch about.

  71. Hawaiian Buc Says:

    Capt. Tim,

    I think you are pretty much spot on with your assesment. There were only a few of us that were willing to give this regime a chance. And I really hope you are wrong that fans would turn on this team that quickly, but I doubt you are. As for free agents, Green Bay hasn’t signed many. It could be argued that Blount (still a free agent in my opinion) is every bit as important to our team as Woodsen is to GB’s. Okam and Briscoe are also very important free agents. Just because they are not your typical free agents doesn’t mean they aren’t just as valuable. If you can get a player that is younger, with more upside for far cheaper, why wouldn’t you? It speaks volumes of our scouting department that they are able to do this. I firmly believe we have the talent in place to win championships, it’s just a question of how long they need to mature. At our rate of improvement, it doesn’t seem like long.

  72. Four Fingered Fisherman Says:


    There iare many reasons people join this site as time goes on, either by; Popularity. Maybe someone didn’t have a computer for a period of time. Or internet. Maybe they didn’t even know this site existed. Maybe they have been inspired and changed their minds, or come become believers. Who are we or even you to try and discourage them? Not everyone accepts a religion or a higher being right away and sometimes never, but when they do, what religion or God would even try to discourage them. Maybe they had a hard time dealing with change Maybe they were too busy. Maybe they were/are overseas in the military and didn’t/don’t have time to check on these kinds of things and interact. There’s an unlimited number of reasons and examples as to why. I’m sure Joe or anyone else who likes discussions would not care as to why, but i’m sure they are all open to newcomers at anytime. And I’m sure like BecklesHeartsRuud, many more people have read this site for a long time, but have chosen not to comment. Either the pot was stirred and made them start, or they chose to just because. There are numerous reasons again as to why. Or even maybe back in 2009, there were probably a lot of people who saw what was being said and chose not to get involved in the ongoing Gruden saga that wouldn’t seem to end with mostly negative thoughts. People were living in the past all the time instead of looking to the future. It doesn’t even matter anyways. I do give credit to JimBuc, thats awesome to hear, but that has nothing to do with the who, when, what or why other people started getting into the discussions, just embrace it. The more the better; for this site, the Bucs and all of us!

    Go Bucs!

    And just to state my position, I’ve been on board since day 1 and I’m a huge Gruden fan as well as Raheem fan. Even after the debacle that was week 3, 2009 against the G-Men with Leftwich as QB. I will say I’ve been more comfortable with that stance after the insertion of number 5 vs. the Packers and with Raheem’s growth, especially in his 2nd season, but who hasn’t felt more comfortbale with it as time has gone on. And that will not change unless Raheem and Dominik do something just completely obsurd that makes me change my mind. Many people voted for Bush as President back in the day, but I’m sure when they saw the results and actions he took during his campaign, many changed their minds and wanted changed. Dominik and Morris have done no such thing to date. I don’t even want to pigeonhole myself and say I will never change my mind about these guys, but I also don’t see that happening.

  73. Four Fingered Fisherman Says:

    @ Hawaiian Buc

    Are you that naive to think that the few people on this site that stuck up for the current regime are the only ones? Wake up call, they are all over the world, not just on this site, or even the city of Tampa. That would be foolish to think that. I’m sure they were few and far between, but to base your opinion off just this site is indeed, foolish.

    Used to live in Mililani, HI, very beautiful place and very expensive.

    With the youngest coach in the league, there were expected to be growing pains to go along with a very young team. There were going to be people who weren’t going to be on board right away. That too would be foolish to think otherwise. I’ve been a fan since my mom sat me down as a little baby next to her to watch Bucs and Seminoles games every weekend. It’s just a part of who I am and that will never change no matter the record or regime. This is personally my favorite regime to date though and I don’t mind letting that be known. Even during the 2009 season, I still watched every PC Raheem had (and Greg Olson and Jim Bates), and found Morris to be mentally strong and very likeable.

    I still remember a reporter asking him during a 12/2/09 PC (you can still see it on BTW) why Antonio Bryant’s numbers were down and his catches at that point had dwindled down from 83 the year before to 22 that current year. Raheem responded by saying, “He had knee surgery the 1st game of the season, he missed 3 games and limped through 6 games, of course his numbers are going to be down, that’s what happens”

    Still, my favorite Raheem moment!

  74. Four Fingered Fisherman Says:

    @Hawaiian Buc

    “There were only a few of us that were willing to give this regime a chance.”

    First, I’m very gald that you and Capt.Tim are supporters of the regime and even better, that you have been since day one, but that sentence along with what Capt.Tim said is very immodest/showy/slightly arrogant. There’s no reason to even say that, you should just know it for yourself and that should be good enough. By saying that, now your trying to make it into 3 different categories: Your Glazer/Dominik?Raheem supporters, your subtractors and your Day 1 supporters. With enough haters, why are you trying to seperate the supporters into two different categories. Its one team, one family and one cause, there’s no need to make it anything other than that. We don’t want blackouts or this team to be sold or moved in the future, let’s take anyone we can get that will support this team right now! Its good for all of us. I like what you guys have to say, but thats just not cool.

    A superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions.
    – Confucius

  75. Four Fingered Fisherman Says:


    “I think most of the fans against Dom’s plan are just impatient people”

    “Impatient people” is probably the best way to put it, Great point! And not everyone is a patient person, not saying anything is wrong with that, but it is the truth. Glad you bought in to the “lasting contender” philosphy.

    Come one, come all!

    @Capt.Tim and Hawaiian Buc – WHO CARES if it was from day 1 or 2 years after the fact like MOBucs. No need for pretentiousness. Come one, come all!

  76. Hawaiian Buc Says:

    @Four Fingered Fisherman,

    Whoa buddy, slow down. I was only referring to those on this site, as I’m pretty sure Capt. Tim was as well (although I don’t want to speak for him). I have no doubt that there are tons of supporters of this regime even when they were losing, but there weren’t many on this site. I’m not naive enough to think I’m the only one, that’s ridiculous! I’ve been on this site for a really long time and I’ve seen the transformation of the posters. For the record, I have no problem with people flip-flopping. Frankly, at 3-13, they have the right to question the direction the team was headed. I would be lying if I didn’t have my moments of doubt as well.

  77. McBuc Says:

    It is true, there was a small group of us. Eric was like the king of the site back then. I am ok with it, Joe has a great deal more traffic too, so many of these guys are new this year. Some people needed the prove it year of last year. I think Eric needs this year to prove it, and I am not sure if Thomas 2.2 will ever be happy, probably because the Chin will never be coaching here.

  78. Four Fingered Fisherman Says:

    @ Hawaiian Buc

    Maybe the blackouts are getting to me…haha, and I wouldn’t say I’m your buddy, whether you said that sarcastically, to be humerous or truthful.

    You definitley know more of the transformation of the posters here than I do and have seen the flip-flopping. I wouldn’t say I have no problem with the John Kerry’s of the world, but it’s going to happen and I accept it. I like a flip-flop better than a flip-flopper though. The people that go back in forth constantly gets me, someone who changes their mind on occasion doesn’t bother me at all. If you didn’t see the 3-13 season coming with a complete overhaul, then that is a little ridiculous. I wasn’t bothered by your comments (although you did say you thought Capt.Tim’s assessment was spot on referring to people jumping on board to support the current regime, again you do have more knowledge of the transformation of the posters here than I do) as much as Capt.Tim’s statements on the supporters for the current regime jumping on the bandwagon. WHO CARES? Why did that even need to be brought up? Although your statement about you all being one of the few people from day 1 did sound pretentious (albeit you probably didn’t mean it that way). And that bothered me cause during the “blackout age” we need anyone we can get, who cares day 1 or year 2. I think you can agree with that, and at this time we don’t need to segregate the supporters into different categories and levels. We all know if we are and who might be, but there is no reason to point that out, like confucius says. If that did come off as offensive, that wasn’t my intentions, the pot was stirred…you know! Like I said, I do enjoy reading your thoughts, the whole pretentious thing is just a pet peeve of mine and I thought your comment came across as just that.

  79. Pete Dutcher Says:

    CalicoJack Says:

    August 18th, 2011 at 9:24 am
    Guess all the Gruden haters wanted the Bucs to lose, too…

    Actually the did. Their idea was that if the Bucs lost, Gruden would be fired.

    Personally, I thought Gruden was just starting to turn things around. He’d finally had back to back winning seasons and I think another year may have been in order.

    And when Morris was made head coach, I was skeptical.

    But here’s the way I look at things. I use to read Louis Lamour novels…best western writer in history. I was reading on while in highschool acouple decades back…and one of the characters made a statement: “What’s the point in worrying over somethin; you can’t change?”

    It stuck with me. So when Morris became head coach, I got on board. And then I saw the change in defensive schemes…I thought, “I know what he’s doing…he wants to build a team like the steelers.”

    But clearly that failed. I was a little peeved, but halfway through the season he proved something to me…something that set him apart from Gruden.

    You see Gruden had a plan. He went into a game/season with that plan and simply did not adjust it, did not reshape it for the players strengths.

    Morris showed that even if he made mistakes, he would learn from them and make changes as needed. That’s rare in a coach.

    So Morris won me over. Plain and simple.

    I’m the sort that speaks my mind as needed, but once a decision is made…I move on. Gruden fired? I moved on. I got behind the team and hoped for the best. I haven’t been disapointed. I think Raheem is building this team the right way. I think they have little experience but they make up for it with a never quit attitude.

    Like I’ve said since Morris took over…he doesn’t have to win every game…but I want to see us compete in every game. I want to see the team getting better from week-to-week and year-to-year.

    And that’s what we’re seeing.

    So what if Mark Dominick doesn’t spend money in free agency. They’ve been saying all along that they were going to use it to resign key players when needed. This year was the test of that and they kept their word.

    And I’ll say something else. I won’t be mad if they do not make the playoffs this year. Last year the schedule was an easy one. It wasn’t a good year to judge the progress of the rebuilding process. This year will be the true gauge. If they go 9-7 I’ll still be happy. I won’t consider it a step backward because htey will have beaten some of the better teams…which they did not do last year.

  80. Pete Dutcher Says:

    I think Joe’s hits went up because of the forum going down. When it happened I tried about 7 different sites and settled here.

  81. Four Fingered Fisherman Says:

    @ Pete Dutcher

    Great stuff man! I wanted to keep reading…ha. Good thoughts, well said, and I agree with most if not almost everything you said. That was awesome! And my dad used to make me read Louis Lamour books, he had them all, I was too young maybe to like them or didn’t really give them a chance, but it made me laugh when you brought his name up.

  82. Hawaiian Buc Says:

    @Four Finger,

    The buddy reference was a little sarcastic since you went after me on 3 consecutive posts.

    I was agreeing with Captain Tim’s entire post, not just the bandwagon part. I wasn’t trying to segregate the supporters at all, just agreeing with a fact. He is correct in saying that if we did take a step backward, many of the people who are on board with this regime would jump right off. However, that’s just the way sports works these days. People are extremely impatient, and they want results today. Like I said, I have no problem with people jumping on the bandwagon. Even if the most vicious hater of this team (cough cough Thomas) decided to do a flip-flop, I would welcome him (of course with a healthy bit of shoving crow down his throat).

    This team still does have a lot to prove. I guarantee you that if you went in the locker room, every man in there would tell you the exact same thing. If they don’t, then they don’t belong.

  83. Four Fingered Fisherman Says:

    @ Hawaiian Buc

    Word, I would have been sarcastic as well…Total misunderstanding, I got caught up on the whole old/new supporter part of Capt’s post and inferred thats what you were talking about…My b!

    You are right about the bandwagoner part being a fact, but when u said that line about day 1 supporters, it did come across as a little overbearing. Like I said and now I know, that wasn’t your intentions and I may have jumped the gun a little bit. We’re thinking along similar lines here.

  84. Hawaiian Buc Says:

    @Four Finger,

    No worries, we’re all good.

  85. thomas 2.2 Says:


    Why 2012? How many coaches get four years to finish better than 3rd in their division or make the playoffs? That is ridiculous.

    Also, we realist agree that the team improved some in 2010. Mostly, that was Josh Freeman and another part surprisingly favorable lineup of horrible opposing QBs. That is not failing to buy into something – that is reality.

    Rah must make the playoffs in 3 years. Period. The Glazers probably won’t fire him because he is affordable.