“There Is No Number”

April 28th, 2010

Joe loves the 21st century, when fans get to belt Bucs beat writers with questions in live chats.

Most of the time it’s boring, annoying interaction, but today there were some fireworks at TampaBay.com when Stephen Holder, of the St. Pete Times, entertained comments and queries from readers.

One guy tried to question Holder’s manhood and cornered him with a question about Raheem The Dream’s future, but Holder danced out of it and even talked down to the guy.

[Comment From Victor]
Show some balls. How many wins does Raheem need to keep his job in 2011?
Wednesday April 28, 2010 12:23 

Stephen Holder
12:24 I don’t think you understand how this works. There is no number. They need to show progress. That can happen even if the record isn’t substantially better. This is a long term thing with the Glazers. The Bucs aren’t winning the Super Bowl this year most likely, so the record isn’t the most important issue. They’re building something — or trying to build something I guess

Joe likes Holder’s style, but Joe knows there’s a number on Raheem’s head somewhere in the cone of silence deep in the bowels of One Buc Palace.

It’s just almost impossible to think Raheem survives a three- or four-win season in which the team somehow “progresses.”

As Joe has written before, the Glazers may be patient, but there’s always a limit.

45 Responses to ““There Is No Number””

  1. Jake Says:

    It the CITS resembles the Trop on a weekday night with the A’s in town, as a result of poor performance on the field by the Bucs and fan apathy, then Raheem will be the sacrificial lamb offered up by ownership at the end of the year.

  2. Louie Says:

    “There is no number. They need to show progress. That can happen even if the record isn’t substantially better.”

    With a substantially easier schedule how can you possibly show progress without the record being substantially better!!!??? Unless they consider progress not firing both of your coordinators, I think the win-loss record must be better.

    Personally (I’m ready for the attacks lovers!), I think Morris will have the job until the Glazerhouse’s money situation improves and/or until the labor situation is resolved. Maybe this is what Holder is saying, without actually say it.

  3. oar Says:

    Not sure about no number, but I do know, “There is no spoon!”

  4. Clayton's Moving Van Says:


    Why do you think other readers should waste their time, reading your post, when you won’t read it yourself??

  5. Eric Says:

    One is the loneliest number that you’ll ever doooooo Two can be as bad as one It’s the loneliest number since the number onnnnne No is the saddest experience you’ll ever know……………………

    Everybody should know that records are completely irrelevant, unless Jon Gruden is coaching. I just don’t remember during his tenure people stating “if we win six games it will be great”. Perhaps if he just lost more and said “were rebuilding” he would still be around! Folks seem to love that.

  6. CharlieB Says:

    I think if he doesn’t win at least 7, there will be roaming lynch mobs for both Raheem and Dom. I completely understand why Gruden was so popular here — he always tried to win now. While that’s an awesome idea in theory, it rarely works without solid drafts or an uncapped free agency with a deep-pockets owner (Yankees). Gruden’s staff sucked at drafting. As such, every year other than the year he got here, the Bucs did well enough to contend for the playoff spot, but never were solid enough to really contend for a championship.

    In hindsight, I think Raheem is a better DC than HC. But Bruce Allen and his staff were the real issue with the Bucs and Gruden and Allen were probably inseparable.

  7. sunrisejeff Says:

    Agreed Joe…..no way do I see Heem surviving less than a 6-10 season

  8. gruss222 Says:

    Just keep begging and begging for Guru Gruden’s return. Maybe one day it will happen for you…………………… WITH ANOTHER TEAM! Then you can completely jump off the Buc wagon and climb on that team’s. Good rid!! See ya feet draggers!!


    Probably will take a 7-9 or better for “Raheem” to keep his Job. Double digit losses will be too much to survive unless it is a 3 year or longer plan.

  10. oar Says:

    Yeah its real easy to build through the draft without (2) 1st rounders and (2) 2nd rounders.
    “Gruden and Allen were probably inseparable.” Really? I guess that’s why Gruden is coaching in Washington.
    “Gruden’s staff sucked at drafting.” You do realize it is the same college scouting department as right now don’t you?

  11. oar Says:

    I’m not begging for his return, never wanted him gone to begin with, but to replace him with 2 year position coach is CRAZY! And to rely on his INEXPERIENCE to re-build a team? Again, CRAZY! They should have got somebody with some headcoach or at least coordinator experience under his belt.

  12. Eric Says:

    The guys with the winning record three of the last four years, with two NFC South Titles “ruined” the team, while the guys with the 3-13 record are the savior of it.

    Welcome to the twilight zone.

  13. Radio Mushmouth Says:

    Can Holder please explain to me how you show signifanct progress without winning anymore games ?? ( especially against an easier schedule)
    If we go 3-13 , can I case be made for “progress” ??

    Isn’t winning the ultimate and ONLY true measure of progress?

  14. gruss222 Says:

    Same argument over and over and over! One day, all you living in the past will eventually get over it. As I stated before, Guru Gruden MAY one day be hired by some other sucker of a team and you will all have a new bandwagon to climb on.

    First and ten – run it up the middle
    Third and one – pass it to the outside
    Good player- dog house sit on the bench
    Suck-azz player – your my guy, get in there

    Yeah, good riddance! Thank God and Greyhound your gone!!!!!!

  15. Eric Says:

    I forget, if we get our asses handed to us by Cleveland in the first game is that a good or bad thing?

  16. gruss222 Says:

    I think one of you needs to start a OhGrudenFan.com and you all join it. You can treat it like an internet porn site and all just sit around all day Gruden chatting with each other!

  17. JimBuc Says:

    Oar — you do realize it is NOT the same scouting department don’t you? Only two guys left, but more importantly two guys at the top are gone

  18. Eric Says:


    Why would we do that when it is so much fun tweaking the Gruden haters right here at Joebucfan.com?

  19. Radio Mushmouth Says:

    The Director of College Scouting, Dennis Hickey, is the same as under the Gruden regime.

    and , yes, he is a complete idiot and the source of all our shitty drafts:

  20. Eric Says:

    “never have so few done so little to impress so many”

  21. oar Says:

    JimBuc, No! Do some research and look it up.
    Director of College scouting is the same, Dennis Hickey(5TH YEAR/13years with Bucs) and College Personel Assistant is the same, Richard Mann II(2ND YEAR/3). College scouts are Byron Kiefer(3RD YEAR) and Brian Hudspeth(1st year previously with Houston). Combine scout is Tony Kinkela(1st year used to be with Tulane). Wow two new guys and not the ones at the top. So they are the same, PERIOD!

  22. oar Says:

    Grus2222, Man, I’m glad I’m my own man, cause I would hate to be you.

  23. Mr. Lucky Says:

    I find it interesting that you all are tossing around numbers like you know something.

    Remember last year after the Green Bay Game? The first Bucs win?

    Josh Freeman was fantastic, the second coming of Tebow? etc.,

    With a looming players strike/management lockout looming in 2011 do you really think the Glazers will spend MILLIONS to replace the lowest paid HC/DC in the league? TWO POSITIONS FOR THE PRICE OF ONE!

    I for one will give Rah-Rah the benefit of the doubt until at least training camp.

  24. Eric Says:

    @Mr. Lucky

    Good point, but they wont reap the full benefit from that till they no longer have to pay Chucky while he relaxes and coaches the High School Team.

    Whats he getting, 4 million or so?

  25. Jake Says:

    @Claytons Moving Van, Go to hell! The first word of my post was a typo and should have read “If” instead of “It”. The content of the post was to suggest that if attendance next year at the Community Investment Tax Stadium (CITS) aka Raymond James Stadium resembles what attendance typically is at a weekday Rays game at Tropicana field ,because the team is doing poorly, then Raheem could very well be the one getting fired at the end of the year. Pretty easy stuff to understand dumbass! I suppose you never had a typo in any of your posts because you must walk on water?

  26. Patrick Says:

    6-10 would be completely unacceptable!! If Raheem can’t at least win 8 games with our easy ass schedule, he should be handed the pink slip. And seriously, you can’t even feel all that good about 8 wins considering the schedule we have. Cause if we actually had a harder schedule we’d probably be 5-11 or 6-10.

    I really don’t like the organizations attitude about next year either. It seems like winning and going to the playoffs isn’t even a priority, as long as they show “PROGRESS,” it’s a success. Rebuilding or no rebuilding, Raheem should be trying to field a team that can compete IN 2010! No, as long as we get there in 2012 or 2013, it’s great. To me, that’s a loser attitude. You people complain about how Gruden had a “win now” attitude. That’s actually the right attitude to have. It’s just a matter of how you do it. Raheem is doing the right thing about getting young and trying to develop his team for the long term, but at the same he should still be trying to contend for a playoff spot. By that, I mean aquiring “proven” NFL players that give you a chance to win at the moment, instead of just throwing a bunch of unproven rookies into the starting lineup from day one. You need both. Veteran and young talent.

    Going into next year, the only changes we’ve made to the roster are getting “rookies.” We acquired no “proven and experienced” talent in the offseason that can “for sure” make our team better. So really, you don’t even know if you’re much better than last year. While I really like the players we drafted last weekend, I still think having a bunch of inexperienced, unproven talent on your team with no mentors to learn from isn’t going to be a good thing.

  27. Lakwland Bob Says:

    I liked Gruden and think he did a lot of good things for the bucs,

    but how many playoff games did we win after the super bowl?

    The answer is zero.

    What was his six year record after super bowl win?

    45 and 51.Not exactly hall of fame stats.

    Just something you haters might want to consider when

    bitchin and moanin about current direction of bucs.

  28. Mr. Lucky Says:

    @Pat – Duh!

  29. JimBuc Says:

    Oar — you are a hater and a dope. I know Hickey is still there, but that is offset by the fact that Gruden/Allen are not. They also added scouts so only two remain. They alos added a consultant. That is a substantial change unless you think Gaines Adams was selected by the Southeast scout, rather than Allen (and Kiffin). Or, maybe you think Dexter Jackson was selected by the Mid-Atlantic scout, rather than Allen.

    Scouts only provide reports. The Gm and coaches make the selections. Scouts told Allen (and Kiffin) that Gaines Adams was the best of a bad group. Allen (and Kiffin) decided to take him 4th overall to “win now.” Scouts told Allen that DJ was the fastest receive left on the board (after 8 receivers went out in the 2nd round). It was Allen who decided to take him.

  30. Eric Says:


    Dang man you are relentless!

  31. Mr. Lucky Says:

    Let me propose a HYPOTHETICAL for the 2010 season:

    the Bucs overall record is 5-11

    However in 9 of the 11 losses it was by a field goal and in 4 of the 11 that occurred in the final 2 minutes.

    Furthermore in the 11 losses the Bucs defense managed to keep the opposing teams to an average score of 13.8 points

    However in the 2010 season the Bucs only averaged 10.5 points and in 2 of the 11 losses the Bucs were shutout.

    Now let’s also suppose that the Bucs went 3-6 in their final 9 games.

    Given those circumstances:

    1. I wouldn’t be happy about the record BUT without a CBA agreeded upon I’d bet Raheem gets an extension.

  32. JimBuc Says:

    Not a big fan of mindless hating to the point of making crap up. There are enough reasonable things to geuinely disagree about without the same B.S. polluting the discussion.

    Sorry I even took the time to respond to it, but it just gets old.

  33. Eric Says:

    I haven’t seen a more dogmatic doctrine of infallibility this side of the Vatican!

  34. Finerdetailz Says:

    It’s already been reported that it doesn’t matter if the Bucs win three games again. As long as we look better, Raheem and Dominik will be retained.

  35. JimBuc Says:

    Eric — not from me, the Bucs are riddled with errors. I could go on and on about the grotesque mistakes by Dom and Morris and the Glazers too. You just don’t see most of that coming from me because most of what there is to respond to on boards like this is mindless negativism often based on theories that just don’t stand up to even modest scrutiny.

    You might be surpised to know that I am not a fan of Morris. I am actually a Gruden fan. However, on like many on here, I realize that Morris was given a crap deal to start things off and I also saw some positives and so I am willing ot give him a chance.

    I am not a Glazer fan, but neither am I a wild conspiracy theorist and I understand the very basic premise that capable business people do not intentioanlly destroy their business, Hardly a novel or controversial point of view, but lost on most here.

    Same with Dom. If Allen deserves clear blame for the Bucs condition (and he does — see Adams and DJ) then Dom deserves blame for Clayton and the coaching blunders BUT also praise for last year’s draft and this year’s draft (albeit perhaps premature)

    That’s the point — no one actor is all bad or all good, unless you are a mindless hater.

  36. thomas Says:

    finally some sense out of jimbuc. everybody applaud.

    we agree that no one person is completely responsible for this debacle. we even were supportive and hopeful when the year began – 0-7 later we were frustrated.

    then after 3-13 you figure, pursue cowher, shanahan or holmgren – have a great draft, add a few prime free agents at wr, ol and de – you take one giant step.

    the plan is different, we understand, we disagree – and this is a blog! if u want rank buc positivity listen to duemig..

  37. Eric Says:


    Coach Morris does deserve a chance, I agree.

    Who knows the kid might do it.

  38. JimBuc Says:

    See Eric — even a moment of negative just inspires the loons like Thomas. 🙂

  39. Eric Says:


    Well the bucs ought to consider themselves pretty lucky to have fans with this much interest in April!

    I can imagine the level of contentiousness when the actual season starts!

    Me see good times for Mr. Joe(s)!

    Man are the Rays kicking ass or what!

  40. bob Says:

    funny how this one was’nt mentioned !!! or was it the reason you posted your dribble?

    [Comment From BslandiBslandi: ]
    Should fans trust what the read on the various Bucs blogs and other Bucs sites? There’s a lot out there these days and it keeps growing?
    Wednesday April 28, 2010 12:26 Bslandi
    12:27 I can tell you that we here at the Times and other reputable outlets are in the building every day and talk to people with the organization on and off the record. That’s direct info we’re giving you rather than what we perceive to be going on. There’s a very big difference. I think most readers are smart enough to know the difference. There’s a place for everyone at the table, but just udnerstand what you’re being served.

  41. bob Says:

    ooohhhhhhhhhhh. jab to the throat

  42. admin Says:

    Joe here,

    There were about 50 questions in the live chat. Joe surely wasn’t going to rehash them all here. The question and answer you mention above surely isn’t of much interest to anyone, since it’s not specific on either end in any way, from the questioner or from Holder …So feel free to think you made a great point if that makes you happy.

  43. Joe Says:

    There’s a place for everyone at the table, but just udnerstand what you’re being served.

    Boy, ain’t that the truth!

  44. tampa2 Says:

    Joe It sure ain’t Turkey & Dressin!

  45. oar Says:

    JimBuc, Applauding hater and dope here or is it mindless hater? LOL. I know how the whole college scouting process works. If you thought, I think the scouts make the final decisions, then it is you that is the DOPE.
    You said “but more importantly two guys at the top are gone”. I disagreed and proved it. The director of college scouting(at the top) and two others have been the same for 3 or more years. That’s before Raheem and Dom. That’s my point. Two new lower level scouts don’t mean it is new, different maybe.
    I didn’t make any of this up? Don’t get that comment at all. Or, no one actor is all bad or all good, unless you are a mindless hater????