Josh Freeman = Joe Flacco?

August 7th, 2013

Joe often hears the comparisons of Bucs franchise quarterback Josh Freeman and Super Bowl-winning quarterback Joe Flacco of the Baltimore Crows.

Flacco’s former teammate Qadry Ismail, a color analyst for the Crows, appeared on the “Ron and Ian” show to discuss the quarterbacks’ similarities and differences this morning on WDAE-AM 620.

“Obviously, Josh Freeman is a tremendous talent,” Ismail said. “But the consistency he has to display this year is going to be paramount, if he desires to have that Joe Flacco like year… if that’s going to be a good thing for him as far his motivation, great.”

Joe just doesn’t see the analogies of Freeman and Flacco at all. In fact, Joe thinks they are polar opposites. Flacco may be the most clutch quarterback in the NFL. He has a playoff record of 9-4, including a Super Bowl ring, and he’s led the Crows to the playoffs every year he’s been in the NFL. That’s damned good. Freeman has yet to lead the Bucs to the postseason.

To hear Ismail’s full interview, click the arrow below. Audio courtesy of Joe’s good friends at WDAE-AM 620.

324 Responses to “Josh Freeman = Joe Flacco?”

  1. Joe Strummer Says:

    Much like the Bucs QBs of yore, Flacco for most of his career was along for the ride as the Ravens Defense led them to the Play-Offs year in and year out. Hell, the Raven fan base was all for running him out of Charm-city on a rail up until he won the SB. Newsome did to him what Dom is doing to JF5, he made Flacco earn that contract, much like Dom is going to make JF5 earn his.

  2. Buc1987 Says:

    Yep sure Joe your right no comparison. Although here we go again. Did Flacco really lead his teams to the playoffs since he’s been there or was it good defense like Dilfer?

    I’ll admit Flacco played great last season, I won’t admit that he ever did much for them prior to last season. The national media analysts were bashing him for a while too. That’s the only comparison there is.

  3. Bucs4life Says:

    To say that Flacco led the Ravens to the postseason is a bit misleading; I don’t think any player or fan of the Ravens would say Flacco was a locker room leader or steadying presence during his first few seasons in the NFL. Let’s not forget there’s a part of the game called DEFENSE and the Ravens consistently fielded one of the best defensive teams in the league every single year. The LEADERS of that team were always Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs, and Haloti Ngata.

    QBs aren’t magical wizards that throw winning pixie dust on teams. They are generally the most important single position player, but that’s not always the case (as in the Ravens, or 02 Bucs, or 00 Ravens) and this article is just another example of Joe revealing his thinly veiled negative bias of Freeman.

  4. ShutTheBucUp Says:

    I agree with the above posters. Flacco didn’t lead much of anything, though he did put on a pretty stellar performance in the playoffs last season. The rest of his work was fair at best. I think Freeman has the potential to be a much better quarterback than Flacco, but thats all it is, potential. He needs to show it on the field week in and week out.

  5. Couch Fan Says:

    Flacco may be the most clutch quarterback in the NFL. He has a playoff record of 9-4, including a Super Bowl ring, and he’s led the Crows to the playoffs every year he’s been in the NFL. That’s damned good. Freeman has yet to lead the Bucs to the postseason.


    This sums up this entire Freeman/Flacco argument. Couldn’t of said it better myself. They are nothing a like. Just because there stats are similiar means nothing.

  6. Buc1987 Says:

    Did Brad Johnson lead the Bucs to the Super Bowl?

  7. Raphael Says:

    @ Joe , your cant be serious ? Tell you what…you put Ed Reed and Ray Lewis on the Bucs the last few years and we make the playoffs…what a joke ! The similarities are there except Freeman can run better than joe…

  8. Buc1987 Says:

    Did Shaun King or Chris Simms lead the Bucs to the playoffs?

  9. the_buc_realist Says:

    Don’t worry, Jfro-6pak is only 25 and has at least 10 more years of “roller coaster ” play left in him. If the pop-star can sign him up, we can lock 3rd and 4th place in the division for years to come.

  10. Couch Fan Says:

    Why is it that when we talk about this stuff about Freeman, its always a “team game” but yet every time someone else is compared to him its “It was the defense, not him”

    No consistency what so ever.

    Bottom line is Flacco is a winner and now a super bowl champion. 2 things that Freeman isnt… yet.
    No comparison to be made unless Freeman actually wins consistently like a Joe Flacco has done.
    That’s what this game is about. Wins, not stats and not potential. Who can get it done when it matters? Flacco has proven he can. Freeman? Were still waiting.

    1 more month!

  11. Buc1987 Says:

    So I guess Brad led us to the SB too?

  12. BFFL Says:

    I’ll make a predition that I invite anyoe to call me out on in the future if I’m wrong….Free will have a better year than Flacco and lead his team further

  13. Buc1987 Says:

    Again I’ll repeat, maybe someone will answer me, maybe not.

    Did Shaun King or Chris Simms lead the Bucs to the playoffs?

  14. Buc1987 Says:

    I mean were they the leaders?

  15. Buc1987 Says:

    Was BJ the leader of the Bucs SB team?

  16. Couch Fan Says:

    He was a leader yes. He wasnt one of the best talents on the team but he set Bucs offensive records that year and even though he was marginally talented was very good at being a game manager.

  17. Illuminati Says:

    In his five seasons, Flacco has never finished with a QB rating below 80. Freeman has done that twice already in three-and-a-half seasons. Flacco has also never thrown more picks than TDs in a season. Again, Freeman has already done that twice.

    Flacco has been consistent all along. Freeman has not.

  18. robert Says:

    yes, the Bull was the leader of the Offense…without question.

  19. Couch Fan Says:

    Brad had a hand in our super bowl win. Clearly not as much of a hand as the defense but he did his job and did it well. He set records that year, look it up. And I dont remember people swinging on his gonads like people are with Freeman. It’s rather sad… He disserves a lot more respect than what most people give him.

    He was also tough, today BJ is practically crippled because of his football career. Dude gave it his all.

  20. Buc1987 Says:

    Yes Couch Fan and robert and take away Rice, Sapp, Brooks, Lynch and Ronde. How far does the bull get you then?

  21. Couch Fan Says:

    And without BJ that defense (as great as it was) wouldnt of won the super bowl either. Need more proof? 2 or 3 years prior to that the Bucs were knocked out of the playoffs each and every time…. until BJ got here that is. Then Super Bowl Champions… funny how that works right?

  22. robert Says:

    I never took them away. simply saying Brad led the offense. w/o the D we would not have been there.

    that being said, Jackson is the leader of this offense.

  23. Buc1987 Says:

    Follow up question have the Bucs had anywhere near a defense like the one they had for BJ or Chris Simms or King? or even a mediocre D?

    Now for a Flacco comment. We’re all about to find out just how GREAT Flacco is now that Reed, Boldin, Lewis and a few others are gone. Let’s see him lead now.
    The great leader that he is, surely he will rise to the occasion and lead them back into the playoffs.(sarcasm)

  24. robert Says:

    “yes, the Bull was the leader of the Offense…without question.”

    I never forgot about the D. I simply said Brad led the offense. w/o the D we would not have been there.

  25. Buc1987 Says:

    And if Freeman was the QB on that Bucs SB team, he’d have a ring too. But in your doubters mind Freeman is what’s holding this team back as if he’s just another Shaun King. I’m sorry but it’s all quite laughable to me. I don’t mean to laugh at you all, but smh.

  26. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    I just don’t get it. QB’s that play with great defense’s get the credit for “leading” them to the playoffs? Russell Wilson, Kaepernick, Dalton, Ponder? Do you REALLY think the defense didn’t help these teams MORE than the quarterback? All the QBs on these teams had to do was not lose the game.

    Flacco has had he opportunity to play with a great defense for most, if not all, of his career so far. Freeman has literally had the polar opposite his entire career. Do you really think a QB produces EXACTLY the same regardless of the defense? Ask Drew Brees and his 19 interceptions about that.

    Flacco is a really good quarterback but has never been asked to compensate for a wretched defense the way Freeman has throughout his career.

  27. adamant Says:

    To say Flacco and Freeman are polar opposites is short-sighted and ridiculous quite frankly. They are basically the same guy, with the same stats leading up to their contract years. Main difference is their W/L records, which, if you put Freeman on that Ravens team and you put Flacco on that Bucs team, you likely get very similar results. No question they are comparable and I believe Freeman will have an outstanding season, barring injuries to top players, of course.

  28. stevek Says:

    Not comparable.

    Flacco has been to the playoffs each year in the league, AND has won a playoff game each year.

    Freeman needs to show he can take this team to the playoffs before there is any discussion.

  29. Couch Fan Says:

    And just for the people who are saying it was there defense that led them to the super bowl last year, well since you love stats so much Baltimores D was ranked 17th last year while there offense was 16.

    In the playoffs they scored an average of 31 points while they gave up an average of 22 points a game…

    That doesnt sound like a team being led by stellar defensive play…. just sayin.

  30. Jfgobucs Says:

    Last I heard..it’s a Team sport….See Trent Dilfer

  31. Buc1987 Says:

    No pass rush, QB’s having all day to throw to a weak secondary. That’s what’s holding this team back. You people act as if you have no idea what good D is. Freeman does need to be more consistent, but it IS the D that is the biggest problem. It’s glaring for all to see. Freeman is the least of their problems right now. Call it an excuse if you want. It will only make me laugh more.

  32. bucbucbuc Says:

    Flacco and Freeman is a comparison that is actually worth looking at.

    Just look game log to game log and see how inconsistent Flacco can be. A year ago, not a single person on this thread would have said Flacco was responsible for the Ravens being in the playoffs every year. In fact, many would say the opposite, that his average play was limiting their potential. The recent Super Bowl distorts everyone’s perspective.

    Freeman has had not just a bad defense, but some of the worst defenses in NFL HISTORY (worst run D two years ago, worst pass D last year). Only the most elite QBs (Brees, Rodgers) can carry that type of defense. It’s unbelievable how people keep talking about Freeman not leading this team to the playoffs. This isn’t the NBA.

  33. stevek Says:

    The legendary Buc defense is not coming back, so please stop comparing that to a “servicable” defense.

    Freeman needs to show more.

    With all of the rule changes, the league is built around protecting the QB, and throwing the football.

    All eyes on Freeman. He has the physical talent to win us games, but nobody wants to admit that when he fails to execute consistently that it costs our team wins and playoff appearances.

    Can JF5 stay “focused”, or will we hear excuses..

  34. Buc1987 Says:

    I could have been the opposing QB last season against the Bucs and lit it up, and I’m an old man. I’d have time to sit back there drink a cup of gatorade, and then, when I’m ready just look for wide open receivers. No wonder Ronde quit.

  35. Gusjackson Says:

    Flacco has had a top 10 defense EVER YEAR IN THE LEAGUE. Freeman has NEVER had a defense in the top 10. He had one defense that was in the top 15 and wait a minuet………….it was 2010…….hmmmmmm
    Points allowed rankings
    2009- 27th
    2010- 9th
    2011- 32nd
    2012- 23rd
    2009- 3rd
    2010- 3rd
    2011- 3rd
    2012- 12th
    The point of this is simple, Freeman needs to do his part and get better and more consistent but comparing Flacco’s success and Freeman’s success is unfair without looking at the total picture. I chose the points allowed stat because that pretty much tells how much responsibility the quarterback has to put points on the board. Freeman has had to do more and the stats make that obvious.

  36. stevek Says:

    Couch Fan,

    Thanks for the interjection: Ravens D- #17 rank, Ravens O- #16 ranked.

    Also, The Ravens offense averaged 31 ppg last year, wheil their D gave up 22 per game.

    What would happen if the Raven offense suddenly took a 50% hit to their average PPG? Josh Freeman behind the wheel.

    Flacco is even more impressive, when you consider that he is just a “winner” plain and simple.

    Freeman shows “elite” skills one week, and than looks like Mark Sanchez the next.

  37. stevek Says:


    ^^ Ronde quit because he knew our QB wasn’t likely to take him back to the Super Bowl.

    This is a QB league, and Freeman needs to assert himself as “franchise”.

  38. Couch Fan Says:

    Ok now your just going way off track again Buc1987… nobody said anything about Freeman being the biggest problem… but he has been a problem a lot of times.

  39. Buc1987 Says:

    I screamed the words where is the effing pass rush at the TV far more times than I screamed the words WTF Freeman last season is all I’m saying. I did scream WTF Freeman quite a bit though.

  40. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    Once again Couch has proved to me that he is a huge moron. He thinks the QBs are in control of the whole aspect of the team. Flacco was practically run out of town for his inconsistent play before he reached his final year on his contract. If not for a stellar defense prior to last year, the Ravens would not have made it to post season on Flacco’s arm alone. Last year Flacco stepped up, cause he had too, because all of a sudden he wasn’t able to ride to victory on a 17th ranked defense. I get sick of people who are unable to grasp what a team concept is.

  41. Fritz50 Says:

    “Why is it that when we talk about this stuff about Freeman, its always a “team game” but yet every time someone else is compared to him its “It was the defense, not him”

    Don’t see it …saying it was the defense IS saying it’s a team game. Last I checked, the defense is still part of the team…like 1/2 of it…a far cry from blaming it all on one player. With all his faults Free is still only 1 player.

  42. Illuminati Says:

    @ adamant

    They are basically the same guy, with the same stats leading up to their contract years

    Sorry, you need to re-check those stats.

    No question they are comparable

    They are comparable in the sense that they are almost identical height and weight, and that both have strong arms. But Flacco has demonstrably better mechanics and has definitely been more consistent.

  43. Jeff Says:

    don’t you losers have jobs or careers to attend to and not worry about buc post all day?

  44. Couch Fan Says:

    Once again Junkie I really could careless what you think, I have come to expect you to hang from Free’s jock like a Flea. But despite your blind, and quite stupid homerism, What I’ve said is never the less true.

    Successfull is Successful no matter what the situation is. Flacco is successful… and a super bowl champion and Freeman so far is a bust.

    Truth hurts sometimes so I understand your anger. I forgive you.

    You can compare there stats all you like but you can’t compare Super Bowl trophies cuz well, Freeman doesnt have any.

  45. Gusjackson Says:

    @Buc’n Junkie I live in the baltimore area and two season ago they wanted that dude out of town. I’ve even heard some Ravens fans wanting to switch Freeman and Flacco, claiming they would have won the super bowl already. I put a good amount of the blame on Freeman for not making the playoffs but bulk of the blame should be on the crap defensive he has had since becoming a buccaneer.

    I will say this: if the buccaneers have a defense in the top 10 in points allowed(which they should) and still don’t make the playoffs…..then I will have my pitch fork ready to run Freeman out of town.

  46. Buc1987 Says:

    Yeah stevek …I’m quite sure that’s what was…the QB. Are you for real? or was it watching his secondary get torched play after play game after game. Ronde was not a WR or anything. He knows what good D is supposed to be like or even an OK D is supposed to be like. Ronde quit because of Freeman. That tops them all stevek. That has to be the funniest comment I’ve ever read on JBF.

  47. Gusjackson Says:

    Remember when Sanchez got his team to the AFC title game twice and was considered a “winner”…… You can’t just base it off of wins and loses there is more to it than that.

  48. the_buc_realist Says:

    Seems like we all agree that the Bucs 2 biggest problem areas are D-line and QB. Funny how that is the 2 areas that the pop-star has focused most in the Draft.

  49. Couch Fan Says:

    Ok Dom has focused heavily on the D-Line, but in your opinion you think he has really focused on the QB position?

    Maybe I am missing something but the only time we have drafted a QB was with his very first draft selection 5 years ago and a 3rd round pick this year… That doesnt sound like a whole lot of focus…

  50. Buc1987 Says:

    Thanks Joe for putting the quarters in the merry-go-round again.

  51. pick6 Says:

    i think he’s more comparable to Eli, who really struggled to look like a franchise QB in his first few seasons despite having all the tools. there were questions about his intensity\leadership, his accuracy\decision-making, and his consistency, just like Josh here. the story obviously had a happy ending as the light came on in year 4 and hopefully this is Josh’s time to flip the switch….and reel off 2 superbowl wins in 5 years :)

  52. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    @couch slug

    For someone who say’s that they actually are in Freeman’s corner, why is it you take every opportunity to smear Freeman. If Flacco had not won the Lombardi last year, would you still be hanging on Flacco’s jock strap? Or would you be trying to run him out of town like the rest of Baltimore? You really do show your bias. Instead of rallying behind your starting QB, and hoping this will be his year, and makes it into the post season, you’d really rather watch him fail. You can’t talk from both sides of your face and have people take you seriously.

  53. the_buc_realist Says:

    a 1st and 6th in 2009
    a 3rd in 2013

    i would say that Dline, Qb, and safety has been the pop-stars focus in the draft in that order. And we all know that the pop-star drafts for need.

  54. Eric Says:

    Brad Johnson had a hell of a year when the Bucs won the SB. 92 QB rating only six int’s.

    Freeman would have done that? Hang in with poise when that Eagles game started so poorly?

    Or, would he have been nowhere to be found at crunch time?

    Free hasn’t even gotten to the playoffs. Flacco was criticized for not winning in the playoffs, although they were robbed in that AFC title game vs. patriots IMO.

    We have no idea how Free will respond in a big game, he hasn’t played in one. Thus a silly comparison.

  55. stevek Says:

    Two most important things in NFL football:

    QB play.

    Sacking the other team’s QB.

    Can we do either really well? Well enough for playoffs?

  56. Couch Fan Says:

    How is saying the same thing consistantly talking out of both sides of my mouth? I guess my head has to be up Free’s crack like yours is right Junkie? I guess that would make me a much better fan.

    Lol anyways. Nothing I have said is false. Flacco has done what every professional football players is striving for… a super bowl trophy. Sorry Junkie, I hate to spoil your fantasy but THAT is success. Flacco is a winner period. Regardless of the circumstances… Freeman is not. Yet.

    Let me ask you this. So far through 4 years of Freeman’s career, at this very moment do you believe Freeman has been successful?

    I don’t. See you can look at all the stats you want… only stat I care about is the win/loss column.

  57. Couch Fan Says:

    Better yet I’ll make it even easier for you. Do you think Freeman has lived up to his 1st round draft status?

    Again, not me.

  58. robert Says:

    I don’t think flacco is that special, but the record says otherwise

  59. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    Yes, I believe in Josh. I believe like countless QB’s who have struggled in their initial rookie contracts, that he too will finally make it to the post season. Now that the defense is acceptable and Freeman has some playmakers on offense, he will put up great numbers again. Unlike fair weather fantasy football fans like yourself, I trust what our Coach believes. And he chooses Freeman to be that QB, so in doing so I’m going to rally behind Josh. If that makes me a homer, or Josh’s jock strap sniffer, then so be it. I’m a fan and I want to win, and more importantly I believe Josh can finally get us there. So keep playing devils advocate, and trash your QB, cause in your world, that’s what real fans do.

  60. Raphael Says:

    It’s funny, I don’t even read some of the trolls post..I just skip over them due to the stupidity and racism.

  61. Solaire of Astora Says:

    Ravens fans didn’t even like Flacco week 16 last year. He had a great playoffs but other than that he’s average to below average.

  62. adamant Says:


    Freeman 3 year averages from 2010-2012:

    Rating: 84.03%
    Yards: 3,703
    TD’s: 23
    Ints: 15
    Completion %: 59.6%

    Flacco’s 3 year averages from 2010-2012:

    Rating: 87.0%
    Yards: 3,683
    TDs: 22
    Ints: 11
    Completion %: 59.9%

    I would say those are VERY COMPARABLE stats. Jackwagon.

  63. Illuminati Says:

    I use a QB rating of 80 as a measuring stick, since that is widely regarded as a statistically average QB rating. All stats below are based only on regular-season games.

    Freeman has finished with a QB rating over 80 in 51 percent of his games, which makes him statistically average. However, that isn’t all that bad for a young QB in this league, all things considered. There are probably seven or eight teams in this league that would pay big money for a QB that can even be that good, especially for one with Freeman’s youth and
    obvious upside.

    Flacco has finished with a QB rating above 80 in 61 percent of his games, which makes him statistically above average, and probably well above average, but I don’t have the time to calculate this for every QB in the league.

    As far as comparisons, Flacco has proven over five seasons that he is an above-average QB, and he’s been durable as well.

    Freeman has been durable, too, but he has not yet proven that he can be anything better than average.

    As a reference, here’s how some other QBs fare:

    Aaron Rodgers = 88 percent (not counting a few passes in a few games before 2008)
    Matt Ryan = 65 percent
    Matthew Stafford = 58 percent
    Mark Sanchez = 48 percent

    Clearly, Aaron Rodgers is a living legend, statistically. Ryan and Flacco are solid and well above average. Stafford is above average, but not so durable. Freeman is average so far. Sanchez is below average.

  64. Bucslegends Says:

    I’d like to have seen Free play with that kind of D since he came into the league !!!!!!! Flacco could afford to (and did) make mistakes and still come away with victories. That makes all the difference in a young quarterback maturation process ! imo, I’m truly ready for some football !!!!!!!

  65. Couch Fan Says:

    You usally skip over posts raphael because you have nothing intelligent to add to the conversation other than “LMAO @ STUPID HATERS!”

    @ Junkie

    You are an awful sensitive lil person arent you? You also clearly like to lie a lot, I guess it is because Freeman has given you nothing else to defend him with.

    Show me where I have said its ok to trash QBs because thats what real fans do?

    lol You are an ignorant buffoon. Listen, you want to have your head stuck up Free’s crack then that is fine. You are entitled to do so.

    But just because I choose to express my honest opinion about OUR QB then I also have every right to. I dont care that you think he is your lover… if he plays for us and sucks a lot of of the time, I’m going to say so. I dont care if you dont like it… dont read my posts.

    But in the words of the great John Gruden, “Jiminy christmas!” Stop lying about stuff I say.

  66. PRBucFan Says:

    “Flacco may be the most clutch quarterback in the NFL. He has a playoff record of 9-4, including a Super Bowl ring, and he’s led the Crows to the playoffs every year he’s been in the NFL. That’s damned good. Freeman has yet to lead the Bucs to the postseason.”

    Exactly Joe, Exactly

  67. Tye Says:

    I always find it humorous when People compare JF to Flacco…. If anything it is disrespecting or down playing Flacco’s accomplishments… He has been a great QB for the Ravens getting them to the playoff consistantly, winning playoff caliber games multiple time and having won a SB…. JF hasn’t done any of that at all… But if your going to dream, might as well dream big!

  68. Andrew 1 Says:

    they are comparable, the only difference is Flacco has gotten to the post season and Freeman has not. now why do you think that is? if your having trouble figuring out the answer to that question its pretty simple. COMPLETE teams are usually the ones playing in the post season. Flacco definatly has more of a complete team than Freeman does. lets hope the defense can hold up their end of the bargain this year.

  69. joseph mamma Says:

    Flacco’s mechanics are great. Not good but great. Freeman’s are average and when he under duress they are awful.

  70. Couch Fan Says:

    So keep playing devils advocate, and trash your QB, cause in your world, that’s what real fans do.

    Yet another lie from such an admirable true Bucs fan….

    Please I beg of you, show me where I have said anything similiar to such a stupid and ridiculous accusation.

    Listen, you want to have your head permenantly stuck up Free’s back side then go for it. That is your right. I also have a right to voice my opinion about OUR QB. You dont like it? Don’t read it…

    But dont try to tell me how to be a real fan while making false and flat out ridiculous accusations… it’s not my fault you are to sensitive to handle a bit of critism when it comes to your man crush,.

  71. Andrew 1 Says:

    last I checked Freeman is pretty clutch himself.

  72. Raphael Says:

    Lol. Adamant destroyed illuminati …

    Facts are facts…nice post adamant

  73. Couch Fan Says:

    Oh and I see you have not answered my question yet either… Lol, it is pretty clear you have nothing worth bringing to a debate other than false accusations and a sore butt from criticism.


    You skip over posts because you have nothing intelligent to add to any conversation other than “LMAO @ THE STUPID HATERS!”

    Lol, Freeman’s fans at there finest.

  74. Raphael Says:

    Lol. Adamant just destroyed Joe’s take as well …btw nice job of creating all these post over eschewed opinion Joe.

  75. Couch Fan Says:

    last I checked Freeman is pretty clutch himself.

    Against sub .500 teams he’s a stud no doubt.

  76. Illuminati Says:

    @ adamant

    The aggregate of their stats over those three seasons are very similar, I agree. So maybe I was too harsh on you in my earlier post? Clearly, that’s how you felt, since you chose to resort to name-calling.

    But Flacco has proven to be more consistent, game-in, game-out.

    Not saying Freeman won’t prove to be, just that he hasn’t yet.

  77. Raphael Says:

    @ couch lol. Everything say is pretty much nonsense

  78. PRBucFan Says:

    And again Brad Johnson had a great year in 02, yes the defense was phenomenal but that offense produced, especially in the playoffs.

  79. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    clutch is clutch, I dont care how you slice it. last i checked its any given Sunday.

  80. Andrew 1 Says:

    just ask the team that lost to the chiefs last year.

  81. Raphael Says:

    Illuminati ? Do you realize there are 3 phases to the game.? The ravens have the middle 3rd of the field covered on defense , with some of the goat players…Lewis , Reed , Haloti Just think about that…

  82. PRBucFan Says:

    That “difference”

    Is the ONLY thing that matters in this league, The Postseason, which gives us the opportunity to get to and win The SuperBowl.

  83. CanadianBucsFan Says:

    I see Freeman having a HUGE season. He’s in the last year of his contract and wants to get paid, and finally has a very talented roster around him. Penn,Nicks,Zuttah,Joseph,Martin,V-jack, mWilliams,GMC,Bowers,Clayborn, LAVONTE, Foster, REVIS,Banks, L.J, IMO top 3 safety duo Goldson and Barron.. and Freeman in his contract year+2nd year in the system..= Playoffs

  84. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    one of the teams the chiefs beat last season was the Saints. just further proves my point that its any given sunday.

  85. adamant Says:


    No problem. But when you say “sorry, you better check your stats”, you should probably have checked them yourself prior to that post.

    I hope we are all Bucs fans here. I am a season ticket holder and truly believe Freeman will perform better this year for two primary reasons: 2nd year in the same system (which is a very good system) and this bein a contract year (always seems to bring out the best in a player).

  86. Couch Fan Says:

    @Andrew 1

    Agreed. However, Flacco is clutch during the season to get to the playoffs, in the playoffs and super bowl…

    Big difference between that and against sub .500 teams. But Agreed, clutch is clutch.

  87. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    Just keep sitting on your couch, slug. Because the last thing we need is your negative arse hanging around Raymond James on a Sunday afternoon. I’ll be there personally with Buc1987, and even in spirit for all of our distant Buc fans. Shout out to WCBF, and Hawaiian, and DallasBoy, and Sasko, and all the long distance brethren fans out there who would love to be here.. I got your back!

  88. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    complete teams get to the playoffs. they had one, we did not. as a result Freeman hasn’t had a chance yet to show that he can be clutch in the playoffs or the superbowl.

  89. Buc1987 Says:

    Why is it that people can’t except the fact that Flacco had one great season?
    Prior to that without the D bailing him out like our D did for Shaun King, he sucked plain and simple. But somehow people in here (Freeman doubters) think it was all Flacco the last 5 years that led them to the playoffs.

    Just watch and learn. I mean really learn something for once this season. Watch how well Flacco and the Ravens do this season after losing so many KEY players. I’ll bet anyone right now Flacco will NOT lead the Ravens to the playoffs this season. Any takers? If not then pipe down. That also has a double meaning as in crack pipe down too.

  90. Illuminati Says:

    @ Raphael

    I’m not arguing about team success, whether a QB is better because he went to the playoffs, etc.

    I’m talking about a simple breakdown of how often a QB turns in an above-average performance, on a per-game basis.

    Freeman has only been better than average in 51 percent of all the games he has played in the NFL. You can read anything you want into that.

  91. Pete 422 Says:

    I agree with Joe Strummer. In my mind I have always thought the two are similar in size, talent & skill set.

  92. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    So, the fact that they have played with polar opposite defenses throughout their careers had no affect on their performance? Do you think a good defense helped Kaepernick, Wilson, Dalton, or Ponder? Or do you honestly believe that these quarterbacks would have had the same wins and losses regardless of team?

    Contrary to what seems like popular belief here, the defense does make the quarterback better. (Or worse)

    Josh Freeman had seven wins and nine losses last season. Drew Brees had seven wins and nine losses last season. Both had absolutely horrific defenses. Now, if an elite quarterback like Drew Brees can’t overcome a terrible defense then how is it reasonable to expect a “lesser quarterback” in Freeman to do any better? I have asked this several times but no one seems to be able to answer this other than to call me an idiot for comparing two players that play the same game, at the same position, in the same division that produced identical win – loss records last year.

    Please, tell me how Brees got to 7 – 9 and then how Freeman got to 7 – 9. How many games did the defense win for these teams? How many did the offense win? Do you think it is reasonable to count on the defense AT ALL? Or should the quarterback have to put up elite numbers every single game for a team to be successful? (Because not even Brees himself could do that last year.)

    Freeman needs to improve, for sure, but only Brady, Manning, Rodgers might have overcome the catastrophe that was the Buc’s defense last year. If we need a QB to produce at THAT level then we are doomed forever because they are simply way too rare.

  93. Illuminati Says:

    @ Buc1987

    Why is it that people can’t except the fact that Flacco had one great season?

    Why can’t you ACCEPT the fact that Freeman only had one GOOD season?

  94. Couch Fan Says:

    Wow you people really will resort to anything it takes to prop Freeman up… Taking away peoples success to add to Freeman’s lack thereof..

    Flacco’s “one great season” brought him a super bowl trophy…. Thats pretty effin great and its far beyond anything Freeman has ever done… or even remotely close.

    It’s rather sad you have to beat someone else down to lift up another… Speaks volumes about how bad Freeman has been.

    I wish I had a QB that sucked but made it to the playoffs every year…. phew would take that over Freeman any day.

    Just sayin.

  95. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Filters are annoying.

  96. Buc1987 Says:

    Don’t like the bet? Okay then how about this bet then. I bet anyone that the Bucs will have a better record than the Ravens in 2013? Any takers?

  97. Buc1987 Says:

    @Illuminati …show me where i said otherwise. Please do show where I said Freeman had more than one good season? Or I get it now you must be another one of the Buc fans that just talk out of their ass. The fan base is full of them. Welcome to the club.

  98. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ WCBF

    you are not an idiot for saying that. in fact that is a very astute observation, one that I agree with 100 percent.

  99. Buc1987 Says:

    I’m not proping up Freeman at all. I just said you people sit in here and say it was Flacco that led the Ravens to the playoffs the last 5 years. If you truly stand by your statements. Take the bet.

  100. Illuminati Says:

    @ adamant

    The problem with statistics is that they’re past history, can be selectively presented to support or refute any position, and that they aren’t necessarily predictive.

    I’m hoping for a huge year from Freeman, of course, because I’m a true Bucs fan. But I also believe in truth and honesty, and truth does not equate to “Freeman bashing.”

  101. PRBucFan Says:

    Freeman doesn’t have to be great to lead this team to victory this year,

    The team around him is too good now for that, minimize mistakes and manage the game and this team should contend with anyone.

  102. Couch Fan Says:

    Said the person lofting up a QB with a losing record and proclaiming he is better than the guy who won the super bowl isnt talking out of your @$$?

    Lol Sometimes I wonder if people even read what they are typing.

  103. Couch Fan Says:


    Agreed. Question is can he do that? I dont have confidence he can but we shall see!

  104. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    @Couch SLUG

    “Wow you people really will resort to anything it takes to prop Freeman up”

    I say, it’s better than tearing him down publicly and then claim your really in his corner. You see, that statement right there tells me that you are disingenuous in telling us that you actually want Freeman to succeed. You can’t hide the fact, that in essence, you want him to fail, otherwise you wouldn’t make statements like that.

  105. PRBucFan Says:

    He better be able to lol

  106. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    @Andrew 1

    Thank you. The truth is, I am not talking to hear myself talk. I would genuinely like to know from the people that don’t believe in Freeman how they explain this. But what will probably happen is that it will get ignored, again.

  107. Bucsondeck Says:

    Joe, you really are talking out of your @ss on this one. Sometimes you shouldn’t comment. Just give us the audio link.

  108. Buc1987 Says:

    Okay I just scrolled up maybe I missed it Couch fan…where did I say Freeman was better than Flacco? I did say Freeman is better than BJ.

  109. Buc1987 Says:

    You guys seem to think that Chris Simms, Shaun King and BJ were the reason why the Bucs were in the playoffs. I mean can you answer that for me. Anyone. Did Shaun King lead the Bucs to playoffs?

  110. the_buc_realist Says:

    I don’t know if using the saints defense last year was a great comparison. They had the Equivalent of having the death penalty for the team. Imagine the Bucs having Schiano, Lavonte David, Bill Sharidion, and Claybourn getting suspended.

  111. Buc1987 Says:

    Was Shaun King and Chris Simms the reason why the Bucs made it to playoffs? Because to you clowns Flacco is the reason why the Ravens went to the playoffs the last 5 years. Ignoring the fact that they had a great D for 4 years before he FINALLY played well last season. Where as meh the Bucs D sucked ass. Call that a prop I don’t care.

  112. Couch Fan Says:


    yes it will get ignored simply because trying to say the defense had anything to do with Flacco’s individual play is silly. Just as silly as it is to say all of Freemans trouble are due to the defense.

    Hold people accountable for there own play.

    According to your theory, we can blame the water boy to for not giving Freeman enough water to be dehydrated during games. That DAM WATER BOY!!

    While were at it lets blame the hot dog vendor for not making sure Free’s half time meal wasnt warm enough and caused slight indigestion.

    Sick of hearing people blame the defense for Freeman’s ineptness. The D Sucked last year. Free sucked at time as well. Let’s blame Freeman to for the defense’s problems.

  113. Andrew 1 Says:

    this is a off topic, but its is driving me crazy. did Sapp sign a 1 day contract to official retire as a buc or is he credited for retiring as a raider? does anyone remember? Ive looked all over the internet but couldn’t find it.

  114. PRBucFan Says:

    Truth is we have all explained in every way possible what we think and why we think it in regards to this never ending Freeman debate. There is absolutely nothing left to add to it..

    We will all have our answer once this season is over.

    The more I hear about his accuracy improving in camp the more hope I gain, but I will believe it when I see it. I’ve built my hopes up on numerous occasions for him since he’s come here, now I am just going to wait and see.

  115. Illuminati Says:


    Don’t like the bet? Okay then how about this bet then. I bet anyone that the Bucs will have a better record than the Ravens in 2013? Any takers?

    I wouldn’t take that bet. We’re a better overall team, in my mind, after all the players the Ravens lost.

    And BTW, I’ve never stood behind the idea that a QB is solely responsible for “leading” his team to the playoffs.

    Also, I’m not talking out of me arse. I’ve been a Bucs fan since 1976. I’ve seen lots of highs and lows and great expectations and broken promises and hard luck and injuries and everything else.

    We’re always excited this time of year. But by October, we could either be celebrating what we believe to be a sure playoff run, or crying in our beer. And then by December, either one of those situations could be completely reversed.

    It takes unwavering dedication to be a Bucs fan, as well as a constant reorganizing of your priorities in life. But I’ve done it this long, and I’m not giving up anytime soon.

  116. Couch Fan Says:

    Sounds fair right? If you can blame the Defense for Free’s mistakes then its only right to say Freeman is to blame for the defense’s mistakes to right?

    You have to agree with this. Not sure how you can only have it one way.

  117. WestCoastBucsFan Says:


    That’s interesting, are saying that they, essentially, had to deal with a new coaching staff last year?

    Also, I think you are giving Jonathan Vilma high praise. Gregg Williams had already been hired by the Rams before bounty gate ever happened. Sounds like excuses if I ever heard them.

    @Couch Fan

    I see you didn’t read my whole post. What you said had absolutely nothing to do with what I asked.

  118. Couch Fan Says:


    Glad to see blind homerism isnt shared by all. Sheesh

  119. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    I take that back, I actually asked a few questions. Your response still wasn’t an answer to any of them though.

  120. Joke Says:

    Flacco = Dilfer
    Freeman = Testaverde (minus the color blindness)

    Note: Not really meant as a slam on Josh. They’re both big QBs, but surprisingly mobile. And Vinny could’ve been an above-average quarterback if not for a terrible line and coaching.

  121. chris Says:

    Let me put it this way. Flacco, in 5 years he’s been in the league, has been solid and consistent to great in the 4th/5th year.

    To say the Ravens defense was so good to the point any QB would have taken them to AFC Championship games in 08, 11 and 12 is a bunch of crap. Joe Flacco is a top 10 QB. Did he have a very good defense in Baltimore? Sure did. But the Ravens don;t win a playoff game in each of the past 5 years without Flacco either.

    The AFC Title game in 2011, people give Flacc0 crap for it? Why because Evans dropped the game winner that was a beautifully thrown ball?

    Freeman has similar stats, but compare the two in big games. Flacco doesn’t flinch. Freeman has yet to prove he’s that good. We need to see it in 2013 because we need him in big games.

  122. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    @ Couch SLUG

    “According to your theory, we can blame the water boy to for not giving Freeman enough water to be dehydrated during games. That DAM WATER BOY!!

    While were at it lets blame the hot dog vendor for not making sure Free’s half time meal wasnt warm enough and caused slight indigestion.”

    That was an ignorant analogy, your stupid examples don’t even play for the team.

    Like always grasping for straws, one minute you’ll say something profound and I’ll think, hey maybe Couch has got it. But then you’ll say something so negative and stupid and I’ll think this guy really is a moron. 2-faces

  123. Buc1987 Says:

    Why can’t you ACCEPT the fact that Freeman only had one GOOD season?

    @Illuminati… your talking out of your ass when your saying I can’t accept something I never made mention of.

  124. Chef Paul Says:

    Dungeon Dwellers with dirty crooked teeth hating on everybody. Just excuses to hate!!! The more you guys ignore WCBF question, the more it proves to all of us, that you just want excuses to hate

  125. Buc1987 Says:

    Excuses, blind homerism, being a realist. All a bunch of nonsense words as if they have any meaning or something.

    I’ll tell you what you doubters deserve to have a Trent Dilfer back instead of Freeman. Because ya know what hey he did win a SB ya know. WTF SMH

  126. Couch Fan Says:


    That’s because your blinded by Free’s jock.

    I would expect anything that isnt positive about free to be stupid and silly and whatever other ignorant childish name you can come up with.

    But it’s not hard to understand if you have just a little bit of brain power. You see if you can blame someones ineptness on an entire side of the ball, then you can equally blame the ineptness of the entire side of the ball on that one person as well.

    However, I do agree with you that my analogy was stupid. It was meant to be stupid… sadly though, it is no more stupid than you and WCBF and all the other blind homers trying to blame the D for Freemans faults.

    Difference is your stupid excuse was intended to be smart. Lol

  127. chris Says:

    Joke Says:
    August 7th, 2013 at 5:27 pm
    Flacco = Dilfer
    Freeman = Testaverde (minus the color blindness)

    Note: Not really meant as a slam on Josh. They’re both big QBs, but surprisingly mobile. And Vinny could’ve been an above-average quarterback if not for a terrible line and coaching.

    This is just BS. There is so much Joe Flacco bashing here. Flacco is an elite top 10 QB. Without him, the Ravens aren’t even a playoff team. Despite having a good defense, you need a quality QB as well. Did brad johnson take us to the Super Bow;l? No. Did he play very good football? Yes. He was consistently good in 14 games, 22 TDs to 9 INTS and moved the chains.

    You don';t see great defenses in todays NFL because of the rule changes geared to explosive offenses and heavily favored in offense. Hits, the 5 yard contact, Pass INTerference, you name it. Doesn’t take much to get a flag thrown in the offenses favor. That is why you need a QB. Ravens defense was good the past 5 years, but it declined as it went forward. I would never compare it to great, especially in 2012 and 2011, when Flacco made the AFC Title game and then won the Super Bowl

  128. Buc1987 Says:

    There we go. I say using the term blind homer, or blind in general is just an excuse to not make a real point. ie you don’t get it because you have such blind faith in your team.

    When someone says that how ef do they know that’s the case? It’s like they use it as a tool to try to win the argument.

  129. Bobby Says:

    Freeman needs to be like Flacco this year, be an average QB that allows the defense and the rest of the team to do their job and get to the playoffs. Flacco just performed above average once he got to the playoffs. Let’s face it…had it not been for a brain dead safety at Denver, we wouldn’t be talking about the Ravens as Super Bowl Champs. Still, Freeman has the supporting cast now and I expect him to take us to the playoffs as far as not losing games for us like the pass D did last year.

  130. Buc1987 Says:

    This just in : Couch Fan would like Trent Dilfer to come out of retirement to replace Freeman, because Trent is a Super Bowl winning QB like Flacco. A true leader.

  131. Gus Says:

    @couch fan your problem is you are judging an individual player in the ultimate TEAM sport. If Flacco needed to put up 30+ points a game to win Baltimore would be very nervous.
    Here is how a quarterback is effected by the defense he has. It’s 3 and 10 Freeman sees Martin is open but will only get about 4 yards, but he sees a small window to force it into mike Williams. Freeman knows that defense can not stop anyone so he takes a chance to make a play to help but points on the board immediately.
    Same scenario for Flacco. Flacco is more likely to just check it down to Rice, take the 4 yards and punt and know that his defense will put him back on the field.
    This is even true for Brees and just about every quarterback in the nfl.

  132. delson Says:

    We will see how clutch flacco is without his monster defense and his consistent reciever in boldin.

  133. PRBucFan Says:

    I honestly wonder what would happen if Freeman crashed and burned this season..

    Would some of you stay Bucs Fans or would you follow Freeman to his next team?

    There are “Players fans” and there are “Team fans”, the thought often crosses my mind when reading some of these comments…

    Hopefully that does not happen, cause i would yank my hair our in frustration lol
    Things could always be worse.

  134. Couch Fan Says:

    I am judging Freeman on Freeman’s play alone. Which hasent been spectactular at any consistant pace. He goes from average, to great to horrible every year…. I am not the one judging someone by how others play. Lol, its rather silly.

    Are you seriously sitting here and telling me that you think Freeman has played well enough to win anything in the playoffs?

    I havent even heard anyone comment on my first question of whether anyone even believes Freeman has lived up to his 1st round stature.

    I dam sure dont.

  135. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Still dodging my question. The thing is, I know Couch Fan has the intelligence to answer my question. The fact that he won’t means that he can’t. The 32nd ranked defines the Saints 2012 season as much as 29th ranked defense defines the Bucs 2012 season. Drew Brees could overcome all the same issues Freeman faced last year (new coach, defensive coordinator, linebacker, defensive end). With that said, it is simply asinine to expect Freeman to do more than Brees could in an almost identical situation.

    I never said the defense was to blame for Freeman’s faults. I said they magnified them. One unit of our team was ranked 9th overall. The other was 29th. Now tell me: Which side NEEDS to improve?

    It won’t matter how good or bad Freeman does, if the defense doesn’t improve then we won’t be playing meaningful games in December.

    The offense was better than half of the playoff teams in 2012. The defense was worse than all of them.

    Freeman was the third quarterback taken in 2009 and is the best one. Yes, he was worth the pick.

  136. Buc1987 Says:

    @delson…exactly…Flacco 2013 is going to look like Freeman 2011.

    @PR…do you really think that? I can tell you one thing not in my case. I’m going to be buried in red and pewter when I die.

    Also the Bucs probably are the king of the NFL for fair weather fans. I don’t think anyone on JBF is a fair weather fan. Considering MY Bucs have sucked for the last 5 years.

  137. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Typos galore in that post. My bad.

  138. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    ill answer your question when you answer mine, DO YOU WANT FREEMAN ON THIS TEAM? YES OR NO.

  139. Andrew 1 Says:

    its a simple question

  140. Couch Fan Says:


    Honestly, I think that this franchise has been offensively starved for so long that most fans think having a mediocre QB is like a god send and losing is ok because he is filled with that dreaded word “potential”. they are so hypnotized with a 4000 yard passer that the fact he doesn’t win very often at any level so far is meaningless.

    They are so blind in there faith that anyone and everyone who shares just a bit of criticism is a hater and stupid and unintelligent, no matter how credible they are….

    I think we are all Buc Fans and if Freeman left they would still be here riding the Jock of the next man up.

  141. Couch Fan Says:

    @Andrew 1

    Yes, for now I want him on this team because we have nothing else to replace him with yet. However, that doesn’t mean I have to kiss his ass. Supporting someone doesn’t mean having chapped lips. Lol

    Now answer my question.

  142. Gus Numbers Says:

    @couch fan answer to first question: not yet. Second question has freeman played well enough to do anything in the playoffs. Yes. If Freeman and Flacco played the exact same and swapped teams. I beat you the records of both teams would remain the same. Would the Ravens have made the Super Bowl with him? That I am not sure of seeing how we have never seen Freeman in a playoff game. Flacco’s numbers aren’t that much better than Freeman’s numbers. Flacco just got hot at the right time ala Eli. I think Freeman can do the exact same thing but I would rather see him play good consistent football throughout the season.

  143. Buc1987 Says:

    Has Freeman lived up to his 1st round stature?

    Yes in 2010 he did. In 2011 he went backwards. In 2012 I saw progress from 2011 maybe none of you did, but I sure as hell did. I expect that progress to carry over to 2013 in the 2nd year under this offense. In short I expect a MUCH better Freeman in 2013. If not throw him to the wolves, I don’t care.

    Of course some of you saw regression. Like I said before I guess we both were not watching the same team play.

  144. chef paul Says:

    Haha your analogy Reminded me of that 4th and twenty something to go and flacco dumped It to rice and took it to the first down. Perfect analogy

  145. Couch Fan Says:

    Also the Bucs probably are the king of the NFL for fair weather fans. I don’t think anyone on JBF is a fair weather fan. Considering MY Bucs have sucked for the last 5 years.

    Now that we can agree with.

  146. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    Flaco led the Ravens like Shaun King led the Bucs!!!

    “Shaun King, one of two Buc Quarterbacks that lost a NFC Championship Game when his defense gave up 11 or fewer points.”

  147. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    @couch slug

    Hey man, is this you? This is what I mentally picture you and your personality would look like.


  148. Buc1987 Says:

    There has been no young Bucs QB in the last 20 years with as much “potential” as Freeman. If so name one. Who Trent Dilfer, because you know he did lead his team to a SB, it was all him ya know.

  149. Couch Fan Says:


    That doesnt answer my question. I didnt ask if you thought he lived up to his draft status in 2010..

    I asked his career overall. All 4 years combined, do you think he has lived up this 1st round draft status.

  150. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    For more on the Freeman pick in 2009. Jeremy Maclin, Brandon Pettigrew, Percy Harvin, Clay Matthews, and Hakeem Nicks were drafted after Freeman in the first round. Harvin was nothing but headaches for the Vikings (pun intended). Clay thrived in a 3-4, no idea how he would have done under Rah in the “Tampa 2.0″. Hakeem Nicks is the only other guy I would even consider in the draft instead of Freeman. Even then, what is a good WR without a QB to throw him the ball? (Just ask Fitz in Arizona about that.)

    they are so hypnotized with a 4000 yard passer

    No, I am sure nobody cares about the 27 TDs. Only six quarterbacks threw more touchdowns than Freeman in 2012.

  151. SteveK Says:


    Fi fy fo fumb, Raphael and Buc’nPunky are just flat out dumb.

    WCBF barks:

    Josh Freeman had seven wins and nine losses last season. Drew Brees had seven wins and nine losses last season. Both had absolutely horrific defenses. (Yes, both defenses were horrible, and Brees beat Freeman twice.)

    Now, if an elite quarterback like Drew Brees can’t overcome a terrible defense then how is it reasonable to expect a “lesser quarterback” in Freeman to do any better?

    ( We were a 10 win team with Drew Brees, sorry he is that good. We had the # rush defense after all, and Lavonte David, not to mention GMC’s probowl campaign.

    Over the past two years, Drew Brees has broken Dan Marino’s single season record for yards, while Freeman has recorded the MOST INTs in the past two years: 39. Our defense must;ve been so bad, they made Josh give the ball away so damn much, especially with his 10 fumbles. Freeman is also among the leaders in passes batted down, what the hell is that, bro?)

    Do we have a Clown QB, bro?

  152. Andrew 1 Says:

    nobody is kissing anybodies ass. this debate, like any good one, has a right and left side that only involves opinions. some think hes good, some dont.

    yes, I do think he was worthy of a first round pick. Ive seen enough of him to know he has all the talent in the world. he just needs to do it on a consistent basis. he certainly was a better pick than Sanchez who went a few spots earlier than him.

  153. Couch Fan Says:

    Lol, Yes that’s me Junkie! How did you ever find out?

    I see that you have absolutely nothing left but childish insults to throw out now.

    I graciously and humbly accept your defeat. Dont worry, your still my buddy.

  154. Andrew 1 Says:

    ^^^^ @ Couch Fan

  155. Buc1987 Says:

    If Shaun King threw a pick the defense bailed him out, same for Trent. Freeman throws a pick, meh good luck.

  156. Buc1987 Says:

    LOL @ that pic Junkie, but that’s not nice.

  157. Couch Fan Says:

    @Andrew 1

    We all know he has tremendous upside. I dont think anyone has disputed that fact. But at what point do you realize the guy just doesnt have it?

    Clearly a lot of you want to give him one more year. I have no choice but to give him another year but to me after year 4 with the same problems he has always had.. its pretty clear he wont be that guy we need.

    Believe me if at the end of this year we are in the playoffs, I will be riding his jock to. But for me personally, he’s gonna have to show me something first other than wins against lesser teams that we shouldnt have to make a come back against.

    I am glad you are debating with me though instead of childish insults lol.

  158. WestCoastBucsFan Says:


    We were a 10 win team with Drew Brees

    lol, okay. Lets try to rope it in here a little and stay on topic. The Bucs had the second worst past defense in the last century of NFL football. That surely contributed to the run defense. But get this, with the number ONE ranked run defense we STILL ended up with the 29th ranked overall defense. That is how terrible the pass defense was. The fact is, Brees and Freeman were put in nearly identical situations last year and came up with the same results. To say Brees would have won ten is just ignorant.

  159. SteveK Says:

    Couch Fan asks:

    “All 4 years combined, do you think Freeman has lived up this 1st round draft status?”

    2013 will paint the entire picture for me. As of now, big loud NOPE!

    If Freeman bounces back and takes us to the 2013 playoffs, then yes sir. All I can ask for my 1st round pick of a QB is to get this team to the playoffs.

    Freeman’s physical gifts drive my doubt for him developing as “the guy”. I hope I am wrong, but the last two years all 39 of the league leading INTS feels like 139.

    Freeman has led us on, only to shut it down. How does Freeman respond in his 5th year and 57th start? Hopefully not by going to the gun range, not playing FIFA soccer, and getting your arse in the film room.

    Consistency is everything, show me time from Freeman. Playoffs or bust from our “Schmoe Flacco”.

  160. Buc1987 Says:

    Okay here’s another question. Which would you rather have coaching Freeman up Schiano and Sully or Raheem and Olson?

  161. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    @Couch Fan

    Why did the Saints go 7-9 in 2012?

  162. SteveK Says:


    Doubting the best QB in NFC South history, the only current QB in the NFC South with a Super Bowl is IGNORANT.


    Yeah, your ignorance is astounding!

    # Officially stupefied

  163. Couch Fan Says:

    Is it really ignorant to think a better QB (which you have admitted Breese was… or was that a lie?) could get us a few more wins?

    I’m not seeing a lot of ignorance in that.

  164. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    theres just one thing i dont understand though. you said yes you want him to be the QB, but you think he sucks? thats a major contradiction. you cant have it both ways.

  165. Andrew 1 Says:

    either he sucks and you want him gone now, or hes good and you want him to stay.

  166. Buc1987 Says:

    Couch Fan so what your saying is 2012 Freeman looked just as bad as 2011? No I’m not talking stats wise with 4,000 yards and all that crap. I would have never even knew that he threw for that many yards if someone did not post it in here. I’m not much of a stats guy when it comes to single player stats. Team stats yah maybe so, just not single player ones.

    So did Freeman progress in 2012 from 2011 or regress like some are saying?

  167. Couch Fan Says:


    A few reasons. Bad Defense… there offense wasn’t exactly the same that we have seen in the past… but the main reason I think is because there outstanding coach was suspended for the entire year…. Dont expect to see another 7-9 Saints team this year.

    There situation is completely different than ours. This is exactly why I dont like comparing teams to other teams or players to other players cuz no 2 situations are the same.

  168. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Brees was in the same situation as Freeman last year and produced the same results. Brees at least kept his same playbook and offensive players around him. Freeman did not. If anything Brees had it easier than Freeman in 2012 but produced the same amount of wins.

  169. Buc1987 Says:


    ^^^^ OMG really stevek you just keep getting more funny as it goes on.

  170. Buc1987 Says:

    Anyone ever wonder that it’s always the same 4 or 5 people (us) that bicker back and forth about this all summer long?

  171. WestCoastBucsFan Says:


    -Different head coach? Check
    -Different D coordinator? Check
    -New linebacker? Check
    New defensive end? Check

    Same playbook? Not for Freeman.
    Same HB’s and receivers? Not for Freeman.

    Two teams have probably never been in such a similar situation before.

  172. Couch Fan Says:

    @Andrew 1

    What I said was I want him to be the QB right now as we have nothing else to replace him with.

    You dont get rid of the only thing you have if you have nothing to replace him with. Either he sucks and I want him gone or I want him to stay is not accurate. Or should I say its not smart anyways.

    Again I dont hate Freeman, I dont want him to go. But I dont believe in him either. But Im smart enough to realize that we have nothing to replace him with.

    I’ve never once said that he needs to go.

  173. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    I CLEARLY REMEMBER you agreeing with me in a post a while back that if we had a better defense we would have gone to the playoffs. but now your saying you hate it when we blame Freemans problems on the defense. dude your a walking contradiction.

  174. Buc1987 Says:

    170 comments and climbing. Joes going for a record here.

  175. Couch Fan Says:

    Are you kidding me WCBF?

    Do you really think that the loss of Sean Payton has no bearing on there season?

    Drew Brees is great by himself, but with Payton he’s a super bowl winner. Payton effects that entire team. Not just Brees.

    You have got to be kidding me the situations are nothing alike.

    They lost there coach for a season, we hired a new coach… there is nothing similiar about that.

    Let’s make some more stuff up to prop Freeman up.

  176. Illuminati Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    Maybe a better QB could get us a few more wins.

    Now, how do you propose we get a better QB?

  177. Andrew 1 Says:

    because if you believe with a better defense we would have made it into the playoffs, then obviously you believe Freeman played well enough to make it to the playoffs.

  178. Hawaiian Buc Says:

    Holy cow, that’s a lot of comments!!! Look, I still believe Josh Freeman can be a great QB. However, I am less confident than what I used to be. He’s been in the league a long time now, and I just haven’t seen a whole lot of progress. That being said, he has all the tools, and NOBODY is cheering for him more than me.

    It is ridiculous to compare him to Joe Flacco. You are classified in this league by wins and championships, period. This isn’t baseball. Nobody gives a damn about stats. I don’t care if he throws for 5000 yards and has 50 TD’s, it means nothing if we go 6-10. Flacco has won multiple big time games against big time teams by making big time throws. Freeman hasn’t, so there is no comparison between the two. The stat geeks can twist numbers all you like, but all that means nothing. This team is talented, we have continuity (for once), and there is absolutely no excuse for Freeman to not have a great season.

  179. ben Says:

    So did trent dilfer,i think that puts it in perspective

  180. Buc1987 Says:

    @Andrew 1
    Freeman played well enough to make it to the playoffs.

    I know I sure as hell believe that.

  181. Couch Fan Says:

    @Andrew 1

    Andrew Andrew Andrew

    Allow me to put you in your place since you want to get stupid.

    Yes it is true that I said with a better defense we probably would of made the playoffs. So what? Everyone has said that. Big deal? Whoopity dooh!

    And yes I hate it when people blame Free’s problems on the defense… why? Well I’m glad you asked let me educate you since you have no idea what a contradiction is.

    I hate it simply because Freeman was nowhere in the vicinity of perfect last year, or great… for 7 games he was good. And I’ll even give him the Giants game. But thats only half a year… that means the other 8 games he was just so/so…

    So if you want to blame the defense that implies Freeman couldn’t of played any better… which is false. I hold Freeman accountable for his own play, unlike you.

    So how is this a contradiction, I have never denied that defense was horrible. Not liking the fact people blame the defense for Free’s faults has nothing to do with the other…..

    So tell me again how have I contradicted myself? Or are you just running your yap to hear yourself talk?

  182. the_buc_realist Says:

    lol, you guys are just arguing to what degree that Freeman is not a Franchise QB.

  183. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    I just took this picture of Couch SLUG. He loves his Flacco burgers. Hold on… SteveK just knocked on his door.


  184. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    So, a good coach makes the difference? Just not for Freeman. Only Drew Brees. Freeman should have thrived in spite of the terrible coaching in 2011, right? So, they Saints are excused because they didn’t have their coach. Brees isn’t expected to overcome a different play caller in the same exact offense to lead them to a winning record but Freeman should? Okay.

  185. Couch Fan Says:

    It is ridiculous to compare him to Joe Flacco. You are classified in this league by wins and championships, period. This isn’t baseball. Nobody gives a damn about stats. I don’t care if he throws for 5000 yards and has 50 TD’s, it means nothing if we go 6-10


    THANK YOU Hawaiian for having some common sense. This is all I am trying to say. Wins is all that matters not stats. And so far Freeman has not got it done regardless of all the excuses.

    And for this I get my head chewed off and called names repeatedly. As you see though I am enjoying pestering these people Lol

  186. Buc1987 Says:

    @ the_buc_realist …same sh*t different day.

    At first I could not wait for the pre-season to start. Now I can’t wait for the season to start so we can end all this debate.

  187. Buc1987 Says:

    Good point WestCoast

  188. Illuminati Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    Not to be a grammar Nazi, but seriously, learn the difference between “would of” and “would have” (or would’ve) and “could of” and “could have” (or could’ve).

    Okay, in retrospect, I am being a grammar Nazi.

  189. the_buc_realist Says:

    Indeed Buc1987,,,,,,,Indeed

  190. the_buc_realist Says:

    West coast,
    you know that the saints had there head coach, D-coordinator and 2 of there best players suspended right.

  191. Buc1987 Says:

    This battle started at 2:15 ET it’s like a 4 hour battle going on. I’m expecting blood splatter on my screen at any moment.

  192. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    Couch Fan, Couch Fan, Couch Fan

    first off your right contradiction was the wrong word to use. I realized that right after a posted it but couldnt take it back. I couldnt go back and correct myself, my mistake.

    but, BUT! ill repeat myself, if you believe with a better defense we would have made the playoffs, then you obviously believe Freeman played well enough to make it to the playoffs, RIGHT? and at the end of the day you dont make the playoffs if you have a terrible QB.

  193. Couch Fan Says:


    Are you on crack? Who said it was ok for the Saints?

    Who is excusing them?

    A 7-9 team that has won a super bowl and multiple division titles is FAR easier to accept than a team that routinely finishes in the bottom of there division

    You are just talking non sense now. You are making no sense.

    Do you not agree that a good coach makes good players better? And makes great players greater?

    You are talking illogical nonsense now. The saints are a proven winner period. The Bucs arent. We arent even in the same level yet.

    Heck that horrible defense shut us out last year. Thats right that defense held our franchise QB to 0 points.

  194. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    There D coordinator was never suspended. Gregg Williams, the D-coordinator for the Rams, was suspended.

  195. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    Got him,

    SteveK joined right in. lol


  196. Couch Fan Says:


    I come here to debate. I dont pretend to be an english teacher. But I’ll continue to type however I like. If it bothers you so much, I encourage to skip over my posts Lol.

    Not trying to be rude but nothing is more annoying than someone who has to nitpick someones grammar when you can clearly understand what he is trying to say. I do realize some people hate that so again I encourage you to skip my posts if thats a problem.

    I’m a simple couch fan I change for nobody.

  197. Buc1987 Says:

    Damn you Ismail for starting all this crap.

  198. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    In essence, the Saints had to deal with the a new: Head coach, linebacker, and defensive end.

    The Bucs had, Greg Schiano, Lavonte David, and Daniel Teo’. All new starters. Obviously Lavonte turned out better than whoever took over for Vilma but they still kept the same system on offense. The Bucs did not.

  199. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    did you get that last paragraph because, if your answer is yes and going with the logic that terrible QBs dont make the playoffs, then you saying Freeman sucks is a CONTRADICTION. there I got it right this time.

  200. Couch Fan Says:

    but, BUT! ill repeat myself, if you believe with a better defense we would have made the playoffs, then you obviously believe Freeman played well enough to make it to the playoffs, RIGHT? and at the end of the day you dont make the playoffs if you have a terrible QB.


    I believe the offense as a whole played well enough to make it to the playoffs with a better defense. Freeman played well at times. I dont think his play alone was consistent enough to be playoff worthy.

    Dont get me wrong. I know Freeman has had incredible moments and I’m not saying his entire career has been disappointing. But I do believe that he has been much more inconsistent than what most think.

    But the offense as a whole is all that matters. We dont need eliteness with all the talent we have. Just consistency.

  201. Gus Numbers Says:

    @hawaiian if freeman throws for 5000 yards and 50 Tds and the team goes 6-10……YOU CAN’T BLAME JOSH AT ALL! At that point we point all of the blame on the defense. So couch and Hawaiian you mean to tell me that if Freeman throws for those numbers we shouldn’t resign him? Are we still going to say “he doesn’t have what it takes”? I don’t see the logic here

  202. Illuminati Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    Actually, nitpicking would be calling someone out on a simple typo or something like that.

    I’m calling you out on a repeated, senseless grammatical error.

    Your defense that “I change for nobody” is like the guy that never signals lane changes, no matter how many accidents he causes.

    Anyhow, it’s just a peeve and has no influence on our football debates.


  203. Buc1987 Says:

    By this time tommorow I will be walking into RJS.

    Now all we need is Walter to come in and keep this going for another 2 more hours.

  204. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    ^^^^^ dude you are all over the effing map! I don’t think you realize how many times you have contradicted yourself. You have lost all your credibility as far as I’m concerned. 2 – faces

  205. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    We dont need eliteness with all the talent we have. Just consistency.

    “Just consistency”. The definition of “eliteness” IS consistency. It is the single hardest thing for all football players to achieve, especially for quarterbacks. “Just consistency” implies that it is fairly easy to do, it is not.

  206. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    that was for Couch SLUG

  207. Buc1987 Says:

    Holy crap though I can imagine the average reader clicking on the comments of this puppy. It’s going to take them an hour to read this damn thread.

  208. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    THE QB IS A BIG PART OF THE OFFENSE!!! if Freeman was terrible then the offense as a whole would not have been good.

    one thing is for sure YOU ARE CLEARLY BIASED AGAINST FREEMAN. if you say otherwise then you would again be CONTRADICTING yourself. there I got it right again. you think I know what the word means now? Freeman hater?

  209. Buc1987 Says:

    ding ding ding….we’ve gone over 200 comments. Happy Birthday Joe!

  210. Buc1987 Says:

    No now Couch Fan said on a thread yesterday if Freeman takes us to the playoffs he will become his biggest fan.

  211. the_buc_realist Says:

    we should all print out all of our genius comments and send the print outs to Joe!!!! Happy 5th

  212. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    ^^^That translated says if we make it to the playoffs I’ll be a Bucs fan.

  213. Couch Fan Says:

    Consistency = Eliteness?

    BJ was consistent… but he wasnt elite.

    Manning, Brady, Rodgers, they are all consistently elite.

    There is a big difference.

  214. Buc1987 Says:

    No now Couch Fan said on a thread yesterday if Freeman takes us to the playoffs he will become his biggest fan.

    ^^^ so does that make Couch Fan a fair weather Freeman fan?

  215. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    I’m sorry, that is effing shallow.

  216. Couch Fan Says:

    @Andrew 1

    So you are saying that the 10 guys surrounding the QB mean nothing is the QB is awful?

    You really need to learn what contradiction means before you accuse others of it.

    It’s no coincidence that are offense was crap before V-Jax and Martin got here.


  217. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    215 and counting . . .

  218. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    No Couch is a hater that hopes Freeman will fail so him and his fat online ego can say “I told you so”. He’s definitely not pulling for Freeman if he can sit here every day and trash the guy.

  219. Couch Fan Says:

    Lol you can call me a fair weather fan if you like. I really dont care. Heck Im sure Junkie will help you pick out some names to call me…

    Fact is this. Through 4 years. Freeman has been inconsistent at best. And it has resulted in losses despite any excuse you can come up with. Guess what? I’m still here and I’m still a Bucs fan who just doesnt believe in Freeman.

    Now go head and continue your silly childish name calling. Lol, you all act as if it hurts my feelings.

  220. Couch Fan Says:

    And I’ll be here after this season just like I’ve always been regardless of what happens. 1 thing i can assure you though, if Free does stink it up and is gone after this year. You wont see me rubbing it in anyones face. I am simply gonna look forward to the next man up.

    And If I am wrong nobody will be more happy to admit it than me.

  221. the_buc_realist Says:

    Wow,,,,, the Jfro-ites are trolling today, who would have ever thought that?

  222. PRBucFan Says:

    Wow, this is progression rather quickly,

    @1987 At times the thought does cross my mind but just for a select few.
    For the most part I do believe we are Bucs Fans through and through. Albeit differing in opinions but Buc Fans nonetheless.

  223. Buc1987 Says:

    @Couch Fan…Yah but if Freeman takes the Bucs to the playoffs and throws 4 picks and they lose the game, are you still going to be his biggest fan?

  224. PRBucFan Says:


  225. Buc1987 Says:

    PR…you are correct sir

  226. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    I hate that people use 2011 against any player but especially Freeman. Freeman was 23 at the time and it was a team wide collapse caused by a lack of coaching. Freeman sure played awful but so did literally every player outside of maybe Adrian Clayborn. Every single player on the team could have done better but the real issue was the obvious lack of coaching. That’s not to say the players don’t deserve any blame. It should just come with an asterisk. I mean, show me one quarterback that thrived in a year their head coach was fired immediately after.

  227. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    Also, let me be the first to say this. Couch, the Bucs have formally instructed me to tell you that they no longer need your services. Although they fully appreciate what little support you give they feel it’s probably mutually better to move on. They suggested several other NFL teams close to your vicinity to help you make your transition a little easier.

    In essence what they are saying is ….Get effing lost!

    click here: for NFL teams near you…

  228. Buc1987 Says:

    Couch Fan…see that’s what I was thinking about you. Like you like to skate close to the edge. I guess what I’m trying to say is you don’t want anyone else throwing it in your face if he does well. So you play like a double edged sword approach when it comes to Josh.

  229. SteveK Says:

    Buc’n Punkie, why are you Trolling around on HUMP DAY:


  230. Couch Fan Says:

    @Couch Fan…Yah but if Freeman takes the Bucs to the playoffs and throws 4 picks and they lose the game, are you still going to be his biggest fan?

    Yes. All I want is someone who can get us to the dance. The result of the dance matters. I dont expect to win super bowls every year. Ill be happy with just making it more times than not.

  231. Couch Fan Says:

    matters little*

  232. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    I think the Couch Fan bashing is a little excessive here. There is no reason for name calling here guys. Besides that, name calling shows your “opponent” that you have no valid points left to make. Lets keep this about football.

    I think where we differ most is on Freeman’s play from 2012. Freeman really did play good enough to win in all but two or three games last year. Not elite, but good enough.

  233. Buc1987 Says:

    @ Couch Fan…Where as me I’ll be the 1st one calling myself an idiot before anyone else has a chance. That’s the kind of confidence I have in my convictions when it come to #5. I’m confident he’s going to play lights out this season.

    Then someone like yourself comes along and labels me a blind homer. That just stirs up the sh*t. It does work both ways though, I’m a sh*t stirrer too always have been. Hmmm you should see me at games with opposing teams fans.

  234. Gus Numbers Says:

    @couch fan so vjax having the best year of his career had nothing to do with Freeman? Jackson played on some talented teams but had his best year with a “mediocre” quarterback. Ok. That makes plenty of sense…….

  235. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    Yeah that’s right SteveK! That’s why I have been so adamant about increasing the size of the seating at Raymond James. Of course your fat arse wouldn’t know that, since you’ve never been to a game.

  236. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Consider this, three games last year were lost only by two points.

  237. Couch Fan Says:

    Sorry to disappoint you Junkie but Couch isnt going anywhere. You will just have to deal with a sore butt every day. Get use to critism because COUCH may have a lot of it if the Bucs play poorly.

    And if they play well, you will see me riding on jocks just like you.

  238. Hawaiian Buc Says:

    “@hawaiian if freeman throws for 5000 yards and 50 Tds and the team goes 6-10……YOU CAN’T BLAME JOSH AT ALL! At that point we point all of the blame on the defense. So couch and Hawaiian you mean to tell me that if Freeman throws for those numbers we shouldn’t resign him? Are we still going to say “he doesn’t have what it takes”? I don’t see the logic here”


    That totally depends. What if he has those numbers but throws 25-30 INT’s? What if he puts up big numbers because we are in 21-0 holes, due to him turning the ball over? What if he chokes it away late in games? Do you think Tony Romo deserved the money he got, even though he puts up great numbers year after year? I sure as hell don’t. That was my whole point, that numbers can be misleading. If he has those type of numbers and a low INT number, we will win games, PERIOD. New England and New Orleans have proven that (both with pretty poor defenses).

    I never said we should or shouldn’t re-sign him. I don’t really have an opinion yet, because we are in freaking August!!! From what he has done so far, I don’t think he deserves a Joe Flacco contract. Do you? If so, I’m glad you aren’t running my business.

  239. Couch Fan Says:


    Learn to read. Maybe then Ill comment to your post but if you are going to twist words around to suit your argument then go eff yourself.

  240. the_buc_realist Says:

    consider this, three games were lost by Jfro-6pak by only two points

  241. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Yes, I am sure the second worst pass defense in a century of football was not responsible for a two point loss. It had to be the guy that threw the seventh most touchdowns in the league. Yeah, that’s why we lost those games.

  242. PRBucFan Says:


    What’s your deal, can you not have an intelligent conversation without name-calling?

    Or are we expecting too much?

  243. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    When they play bad I’ll be the loudest critic. But you constantly criticise and we haven’t even played a game yet. Either get on the bus or stay on your filthy nasty couch. It’s up to you, but I will not let you berate our starting QB everyday and then call yourself a fan. I have my differences also with Freeman but he is my QB whether I like it or not. I refuse to envision the future by living in the past. I want Freeman to succeed, even with all his faults. When and IF the Coach ever benched Josh then I’ll rally behind the next guy. Pretty simple ..that’s what real fans do.

  244. Couch Fan Says:

    Then someone like yourself comes along and labels me a blind homer. That just stirs up the sh*t. It does work both ways though, I’m a sh*t stirrer too always have been. Hmmm you should see me at games with opposing teams fans.


    Im not sure what you are talking about. I was commenting on this article which compares Freeman to Flacco. I simply pointed out there is no comparison to make until Freeman actually wins something… which is the truth.

    Then YOU started bashing our own BJ. Lol. Seriously that was you who was bashing him and I am the one who isnt a Bucs Fan? lmao

  245. Buc1987 Says:

    Hawaiian Buc…I think everyone in here agrees he has not shown enough to re-sign him.

    I also agree with what WestCoast said about a month ago in here. A bad defense does effect a teams offense and the playcalling.

    Some have called it an excuse for Freeman. oh well obla di obla da

    I hope I did not open a whole new can of worms with that statement.

  246. Couch Fan Says:

    Junkie I am going to give my opinion on any topic I like. You have no choice in the matter.

    Like it or not I dont really care. Lol

  247. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    I still don’t understand why people complain SO MUCH about last season. It was the first year with a new coach. Statistics show that first year coaches VERY RARELY experience a winning record in their first season. We also improved our win-loss record by almost double. I mean, what did you all REALLY expect in 2012? Playoffs for a first year staff with a team coming off a 4-12 season?

    I don’t “enjoy” losing but come on. Were all of the people complaining here seriously expecting playoffs last year? Honestly?

  248. Buc'n Junkie Says:


    Don’t pretend to be the morality police. Go back and read. Couch and SteveK have been throwing insults all day. I’ll be damned if you single me out.

  249. Buc1987 Says:

    I was not bashing BJ in any way. Just saying that he did nothing extraordinary to take the Bucs to the SB. Game manager yes. If you take away Brooks Sapp and Lynch. BJ would have done nothing for us as far as getting to the playoffs. Much like Flacco.

  250. Yeah It's me! Says:

    Brad Johnson had much more exp than Freeman and the best D in the NFL in 2002.Freeman and the O broke BJ’s TD record,Points Record and Yards Record and had 31st ranked passing D and 31st in Sacks.
    Flacco has had ONE Offensive system and ONE Coach and a top 5 D every year.Freeman has had 3 OC, 3 QB Coach’s, 2 HC’s,# O Systems with one of the worst D’s in the NFL the last 4 Yrs.And come on! Raheem Morris & gregh Olson?…..PLEASE! It took Eli Manning 4 years in the same system as Freeman to even start looking good at all and Eli had a high Ranked D. Facts are Facts.Only Brady,Rogers & P Manning can take a team to the Playoff”s with a crappy D.History has proven that. Freeman will be a Top 10 QB in 2013. Go Bucs!!! Go Freeman!!!

  251. Couch Fan Says:


    I dont complain about last season much, it was MUCH better than the previous year. My opinion of Freeman isnt just from last year, its the entirety of his career so far which leaves me in doubt.


    Change your tampon and stop being so sensitive Lol. If I have insulted anyone it’s Freeman. And you have been calling me names for like hours now. Hard to believe someone is so offended by being called a blind homer… unless its true I guess

  252. Pewter_Power Says:

    Big difference between the situation Flacco walked into and the situation Freeman walked into.

  253. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    Let me just say this and then I’m finished.

    I am so glad that I don’t have to tailgate with some of you.

    There are a some of you, I would personally like to meet someday!

    and then there are some of you I would like to just meet one time.

  254. Hawaiian Buc Says:


    Yeah, I agree. To be clear, I like Freeman and really really don’t want us to have to go out looking for another QB. We’ve been doing that for over 30 years now, with very little success. Very rarely can you blame a loss on one individual player. However, I think it’s more than fair to say Freeman didn’t do much to help us last year when we needed him the most (specifically our losing stretch at the end of the year). Obviously the organization feels the same way or they would have extended him (like they did Mike Williams).

    It’s totally fair to say our secondary bears a lot of the responsibility for our losses last year. However, most of those guys are gone now, so obviously they have paid the price. But I think Freeman has the skill set to play better, despite our terrible secondary. It’s not like Brees, Flacco, Brady, etc. have great secondaries either. In fact, N.O. secondary was almost as bad as ours. That didn’t seem to hurt Drew Brees and their playcalling, even though his play caller was suspended. My point is that it’s only an excuse if you let it be an excuse. Freeman needs to be more consistent and just make better decisions. In my opinion, he is more than capable of doing just that, but he’s running out of time to prove it.

  255. Buc1987 Says:

    Couch Fan I think you would rather be proven wrong about Freeman and have it thrown in your face, because that would mean the Bucs are in the playoffs. So it’s easier to take the stance of I have no faith in him, because the odds are in your favor that your right and we are wrong. Going by his past seasons.

    Joe started all this crap originally so blame him with this about Flacco : he’s led the Crows to the playoffs every year he’s been in the NFL.

    As if Flacco was the leader that got them into the playoffs and the great D had nothing to do with it.

    Hell Tebow sucks. Denver had a great D that kept them in games which made him look like a hero all the time.

  256. Hawaiian Buc Says:


    Yeah, I agree. To be clear, I like Freeman and really really don’t want us to have to go out looking for another QB. We’ve been doing that for over 30 years now, with very little success. Very rarely can you blame a loss on one individual player. However, I think it’s more than fair to say Freeman didn’t do much to help us last year when we needed him the most (specifically our losing stretch at the end of the year). Obviously the organization feels the same way or they would have extended him (like they did Mike Williams).

  257. Hawaiian Buc Says:

    It’s totally fair to say our secondary bears a lot of the responsibility for our losses last year. However, most of those guys are gone now, so obviously they have paid the price. But I think Freeman has the skill set to play better, despite our terrible secondary. It’s not like Brees, Flacco, Brady, etc. have great secondaries either. In fact, N.O. secondary was almost as bad as ours. That didn’t seem to hurt Drew Brees and their playcalling, even though his play caller was suspended. My point is that it’s only an excuse if you let it be an excuse. Freeman needs to be more consistent and just make better decisions. In my opinion, he is more than capable of doing just that, but he’s running out of time to prove it.

  258. Couch Fan Says:


    You said Flacco did nothing to win that super bowl. Then you compared him to BJ which is saying BJ did nothing on our way to the super bowl. That is not only false but its disrespectful.

    What you say is true… BJ would of not won a super bowl without all those players. It is also true that we wouldn’t of won those super bowls either without BJ. He did have an impact.

    And guess what? Flacco had an even bigger impact on his super bowl team than BJ did.
    In fact without Flacco/Boldin they most likely dont even get in the playoffs.

    So dont question my loyalty about my team when you sit here and blatently disrespect the only Super Bowl winning QB (and previous franchise record holder before Freeman) we have.

  259. Couch Fan Says:

    So it’s easier to take the stance of I have no faith in him


    I dont take a stance because its easier. I take that stance because its what I believe and how I feel.

    Is it really that hard to believe someone just isnt infatuated with a guy who has had very minimal success in the NFL?

  260. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    what a fan ^^^^^^^

  261. Buc1987 Says:

    Pewter Power says :
    Big difference between the situation Flacco walked into and the situation Freeman walked into.

    And that about sums it up in one sentence. Damn man all this bickering from me and others back and forth back and forth. The dude comes in and sums it up in one sentence. Thanks Pewter Power

    @Couch Fan wrong again…I said prior to last season Flacco did nothing to get them into the playoffs. I made no mention of last season if you kindly scroll up threw all this mess. I gave Flacco props for last season from the very beginning.

  262. Couch Fan Says:

    Thank you Junkie. First smart thing you’ve said all day sweety.

  263. Buc1987 Says:

    Blantantly disrespect BJ??? You are truly a confused individual. BJ was mediocre and that was all they needed to get them there. So okay we agree a mediocre QB played a part in MY Bucs making it to the SB. I’m not going to put him up on a pedestal though, just because.

  264. Couch Fan Says:

    Lol I’ll take that kind of mediocre over Freeman any day and all day. You can have Freemans 6 wins a year.

  265. Buc1987 Says:

    Now I’m leaving my PC for awhile, I need a drink. I’ll leave it at this.

    Pewter Power says :
    Big difference between the situation Flacco walked into and the situation Freeman walked into.

    Nuff Said

  266. Couch Fan Says:

    Funny you wont put him on a pedestal even though he had a big hand in our super bowl victory…. but yet Freeman, a losing QB is on the pedestal.

    Makes sense. NOT!

  267. Buc1987 Says:

    Psych I’m not leaving without dropping this.

    Couch Fan says:
    Lol I’ll take that kind of mediocre over Freeman any day and all day. You can have Freemans 6 wins a year.

    When MY Bucs make the playoffs this year with Freeman at QB don’t try to jump on the bandwagon after comments like that. Don’t even bother, because you’ll be thrown off so fast, it’s gonna sting.

  268. Couch Fan Says:

    Nobody can throw me off. Im on the bandwagon just not crazy about the guy driving the wagon….

    And Ill be here just to pester you every night about it sweet cheeks.

  269. Buc'n Junkie Says:


    You’ve definitely won the a-hole of the day award. I tried my best to wrestle it away from you but to your credit you wouldn’t let go… congrats! …lol

  270. Gus Numbers Says:

    @couch fan I do read your post. And I’ve been addressing your points. When you start to act high and mighty I can see why people have resorted to name calling. The argument that will never get settle is how much of an impact the defense not doing their job had an effect on Freeman’s play.
    @ Hawaiian if he throws 3 picks then comes back in the same game and throw 5 touchdowns, than yes he did enough to win the game. Defense needs to step up point blank. No matter how any of you feel about freeman, we will not win of the defense from last year shows up again. Freeman is NOT good enough to overcome bad defensive play. As I said before I judge a defense on points allowed and Freeman has only had a good defense in that regard. ONE TIME! And that was in 2010

  271. Gus Numbers Says:

    I hate typing from my phone!

  272. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    ^^^^ you hit it right on the head, now see if you can get it through Couch’s thick skull.

  273. Hawaiian Buc Says:

    @Gus Numbers,

    So you think it’s okay for Freeman to dig us in a hole? If he comes back strong, but we still lose, he’s not responsible in any way? Wow, that’s some pretty crazy logic, don’t you think? As a QB, you are judged by wins and losses. You are not judged by segments of games, but the entire game. If you play like a dog for part of the game and we lose, then you are partially responsible for the loss. Pretty simple concept and I’m a little frightened that anyone would struggle to grasp that concept. If you dig us in a hole, then the ONLY acceptable alternative is to come back and win the game for us. You can’t put us in a hole, then come back and blame the defense for the fact that you couldn’t get us all the way out of the hole.

  274. Hawaiian Buc Says:

    I think the reason that the whole Freeman issue gets so many comments is that there really is no right or wrong answer. There are so man extremists with their opinion of Freeman, but in reality it’s probably closer to the middle. He’s not terrible as many suggest. At the same time, he’s not even knocking on the door of elite. If you were to ask GM’s and coaches to rank the QB’s in the NFL based on performance (not potential), Freeman would probably rank him somewhere in the middle. He struggles with consistency, which is why so many get so frustrated with him. We all know his potential is unlimited, but many are frustrated and impatient that he doesn’t show it for any length of time (only in flashes).

  275. Couch Fan Says:

    ^^ Exactly

    People act like Freeman comes out and lights it up every single game only for the defense to let us down.

  276. mpmalloy Says:

    This is Joe’s Pièce de résistance.
    It’s a Free-for-all!

    Go Bucs

  277. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    Nobody said or thinks that ….. people know that Josh has his faults but the win loss record doesn’t reflect the entire story. Some of us are smart enough to put 2 and 2 together and realize that it wasn’t all JF. There were other litigating circumstances. Like lack of talent offensively and defensively, losing starters to injuries, no real depth, a new system, and a crummy defense.
    It all helped to add up to a losing record. I truly believe had Baltimore drafted Freeman instead of Flacco, he would of taken them to more than one SB appearance.

  278. mpmalloy Says:

    …wait a minute…
    “litigating circumstances”?

  279. Buc'n Junkie Says:



    that should have been mitigating circumstances

  280. Yeah It's me! Says:

    2002 Bucs D told Gruden ” You get us 17 points and we will get you a win”. Gruden told the D ” You get me 9 Td’s (maybe it was 11 TD’s) And I will get you to the Superbowl”. That’s not counting Brad Johnson wasn’t the key to a SB win.It was the D (2002 Bucs D top 10 D All Time in NFL History) and a game manager.Josh has MUCH MORE TALENT and will be much more consistant year 2 Period.
    2002 Bucs D allowed 196 Points. 2002 Bucs O Scored 346 Points.
    2012 Bucs D allowed 394 Points. 2012 Bucs O Scored 389 Points.
    That says it all! Freeman is not the problem.If freeman has exact same stats this year and 5 or more Fewer INT”s with with the 2002 D we would be in the SB again.There is no way Freeman will be the same or worse this year.I’ll bet my house on that. (Barring injuries on key starters)

  281. Hawaiian Buc Says:

    @Yeah It’s me,

    We really can’t compare 2002 to the present day. The game is different, and more importantly, our team is different. Josh is definitely counted on more than Brad Johnson was to score points. However, that’s the case with most of today’s QB’s. The game is different. Brad Johnson was never looked at as a long term QB either. We are talking about investing the next 6 years or so on Freeman. As a result, he is going to be held to a higher standard. Sorry, that’s just the way it works. This is a business. It isn’t college football. No one in their right mind can think Freeman isn’t the best option for us in 2013. Those who think we should start Glennon are morons. However, if Freeman continues on his current path, he doesn’t deserve a huge contract. That’s the issue here. You have to earn your money, so let’s see him go out and earn it. I, for one, hope he does.

  282. SteveBucsFan Says:

    Wow! What a nice present for Joe’s birthday!

  283. HolyBuc Says:

    Freeman defenders and detractors, these discussions have run their course. We will find out this year what Freeman is made of and he will be measured by it.
    For all the elite QB talk which is somewhat misleading how many Super Bowls have Peyton, Rodgers, and Brees won…hell lets throw in Favre and Marino. The point being to win a Super Bowl you need a complete team effort at the right time (playoffs) and a little luck when it comes to injuries win it all. Tom Brady won three and that was before he started putting up the ridiculous numbers he has of late. The Giants beat the Patriots twice in the Super Bowl. Does that make Eli a better QB than Brady? HELL NO!! The Giants had a more complete team.

    Lets not forget that if a certain Bronco safety would have gotten to a proper depth in prevent defense, Flacco could of easily been watching the Super Bowl.

  284. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Lol, has it ever been more obvious that football is really close? Closing in on 300 comments. I know it has been over 200 on JBF before but I don’t think it has ever hit 300.

    Keep it up guys. Less than 24 hours to kickoff!

  285. Gus Numbers Says:

    @hawaiian that’s something I think we can all agree on. Freeman needs to go EARN his contract this year. Make decisions to help win the game that’s all bucsnation can ask for. I personally think he will do that and then some

  286. Gus Numbers Says:

    @mpmalloy I see what you did there.

  287. Hawaiian Buc Says:

    @Gus Numbers,

    Yeah, I think he will too. We are going to learn a lot about #5 this season.

  288. Gus Numbers Says:

    @couch fan I don’t think even the biggest freeman supporter will say he “lights it up” game in and game up. We all know he needs to play consistently well. No one here is saying he is Brees or Peyton, but if I can speak for some of us on this page, we all think you grossly underestimate how much of an impact a BAD defense can have on a young quarterback. Remember he has never really had a good defense. Even the decent one was only passable at best.
    With the moves that have been made , this is a show me year for Freeman. If he doesn’t perform even the die hard Freeman fans will be chanting for Glennon(or at least another QB)

  289. Buc1987 Says:

    I’m stepping in briefly for one more comment for you loons. Drunk and all. I’ve figured it all out after thinking a bit. I won’t reply to your response either, I’m too effed up to stay in here and reply. The problem that stands out with the doubters vs the supporters of Freeman is this.

    We (the supporters) believe that Freeman has progressed in 2012 from 2011.
    The doubters do not, they think he regressed. They think he’s just the same Freeman and expect the worst. To me that’s what all the fight is really about. I could be wrong, but that’s atleast my thoughts on all this. I might add we (the supporters) literally hate the word homer. Atleast I do, because it discounts my points. Just like the doubters must hate the word hater. It discounts their points to label them. Again I’m pretty fuked up right now and I could be wrong, but I came to this conclusion prior to having my 1st drink.

    P.S. Has anyone ever tried to type when drunk? It takes forever, this took a lot out of me. So if there is any typos please forgive them and Go Bucs!

  290. BamBamBuc Says:

    Not gonna get into the Freeman/Flacco debate… but,

    One thing I’d like to mention having watched so many Bucs games over and over this off-season regarding Freeman…. Has anyone ever seen him use the pump fake? I don’t recall seeing him use it at all last year. I may have to watch again, but this is really a part of the game I think he should start utilizing. Watch the “elite” guys. Almost all of them use the pump fake to draw the Safety or LBs out of position. Freeman is pretty good when using the play action, partly because it draws those two positions out of position. On straight drop backs, it might be effective to get him using a pump fake. It will have the same effect as the play action and draw defenders away from where he really wants to go with the ball. I don’t know if it’s a coaching thing (they’re not wanting or asking him to pump fake) or if it’s just not a part of his game. Either way, I think it needs to be added.

    Many say he “locks on to receivers”, which I don’t completely agree with. I’ve watched him go through progressions fairly well. But if he see’s a matchup that’s good, but a Safety “MAY” be over the top, wouldn’t it be a good idea to pump fake to an underneath guy or the opposite side of the field and then go back to his initial read? Brees, Manning, Brady, Rodgers all use the pump fake from time to time. Some more than others, but it’s a part of their game. I think Brees uses it to open lanes to throw, since he’s not as tall as other QBs to avoid batted down passes.

    Yes, Freeman has things to work on. He’s not as good as he could be. He’s pretty effective with what he’s got, just not effective enough to win enough games despite other areas of the team that were lacking. If he improved his game with the pump fake, it may take things to another level for him. Just a thought….

  291. Andrew 1 Says:

    fuk you couch fan I know what the word contradiction means lol.

  292. Andrew 1 Says:

    and with this post, that makes 290 comments. congratulations to all you participated and happy 5th Joe.

  293. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Surprisingly well written if you are drunk.

    As far as why you think the haters/ supporters clash, I don’t really think they believe that entirely. They (haters) believe 2010 was a fluke against bad teams but more than that, the doubters generally believe Freeman had a bad year in 2012 while, at least myself, believe that he had a “GOOD” year with a few bad games at the end that seems to have wiped out the entire season before them.

    He wasn’t elite for every game before that but was pretty efficient. His turnovers were low and his touchdowns were high. Right up until the small collapse of really the whole team. I really believe the terrible defense just took its toll on the team. (That, the injuries, and I think the whole team was pretty gassed late in the season.) All the games that the offense worked so hard to put up a decent lead only to have the defense give it away. A team can only take so much of that before it affects morale.

    Again, these are my opinions but I really think this is where the disconnect is.

  294. Joe Says:

    Has anyone ever seen him use the pump fake?

    Good point. Very few times.

  295. Joe Says:

    Surprisingly well written if you are drunk.


  296. PRBucFan Says:

    Morality police?

    Lol shut up and learn to accept when your wrong, even West Coast pointed it out.

  297. Jimmy Says:

    What’s wrong with you nimrods? Think about it: Would you trade Freeman straight up for Flacco? Of course you would. If you wouldn’t, you should be drug tested.

    If Baltimore traded Flacco straight up for Freeman, there would be riots in the streets.

    Nothing more needs to be said.

  298. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Jimmy

    would you have traded for Flacco before last season? no you wouldnt. nobody would have. its amazing how 1 successful season like that can change your perception about a player. our perception of Freeman will also be altered if he has the same kind of season that Flacco had last season.

  299. Jimmy Says:


    You damn right I would have traded Flacco for Freeman if I was Mark Dominik, without blinking an eye.

    Flacco is everything Freeman is not: It’s called getting the job done. Flacco was s dropped pass away from getting the Ravens to the Super Bowl two years ago.

    Please tell me when was the last time Freeman played in a conference title game. Oh, that’s right, unlike Flacco, Freeman has never been in a playoff game. Whoopsie.

    What, Flacco has been in three AFC title games? Nah, can’t have a scrub like him.

  300. Buc'n Junkie Says:


    Westcoast didn’t point anything out chump. He never said my name. Go back and read my post. The only names I used was slug and moron. Go back and read the others. Don’t try to single me out.

  301. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Gotta agree with the pump fake suggestion. There would be no downside to it.

    It would be interesting to statistics on that. That stat definitely does not exist anywhere so you would have to manually review tape to get the numbers so it probably won’t ever happen. Still, it would be very interesting.

  302. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Here is an interesting article on Ben Roethlisberger and the pump fake.


  303. Buc'n Junkie Says:


    What the hell? Did you just friggin wake up or something. Baltimore fans were ready to chase Flacco out of town prior to last year. Three years ago Baltimore fans wanted to trade Flacco for Freeman. They almost didn’t even make the playoffs last year. They barely won 6 straight close games to get to 9-2 with their defenses help. Then, they lost 4 of 5 and snuck into playoffs with a 10 -6 record. In 2010 the Bucs finished with a 10-6 record and didn’t make it to post season. Thanks to the weak AFC, Baltimore got in. Then Flacco got hot.

  304. Buc1987 Says:

    Pewter Power says :
    Big difference between the situation Flacco walked into and the situation Freeman walked into.

    And that’s for Jimmy the Flacco fan. Yeah I’m a lil sobered up now.

  305. Buc1987 Says:

    I’m sobered up a little bit. Right now it’s 1:25 AM I consider this game day. What about you Junkie? wooooooooooooooooooooo hoooooooooooooooooooo it’s here baby, it’s here!

  306. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    Yeah, I won’t be at the game though. I gave my seats to my son’s and their girlfriends. I’m just not into glorified practices. It ticks me off having to pay full price for four seats for a scrimmage game that doesn’t even count.

  307. Buc1987 Says:

    RJS is not going to be able to handle this Buc fan this season. I’m making a proclamation to the season tix holders in my section tommorow night. That my section is going to be thee loudest section in the whole freakin stadium, and that I expect them to help me. No more hands in your lap on gameday while the D is on the field. I will literally pass out halls throat drops if I have to, to make my point made. Oh it’s gonna be loud, once and for all at this stadium it’s gonna be loud. Starting with my section. I’m sick of the BS and I’m on a mission. I’m going to make it like it’s my job to make RJS rock like the old days. With that I bid you good night and see ya tommorow night LIVE from RJS baby. Pre-season is here!

  308. Buc1987 Says:

    @Junkie I hear ya. I just have to sit in my seats though. I’ve waited all summer long for it. I’m skipping the last one against the skins though. Plus I have to put up that banner as you know. That banner is damn important. Freeman needs to know. I’m sure I won’t have any problem finding a spot to hold it up though where it won’t obstruct anyones view, it’s a pre-season game. I hear ya the full price crap though, it is crazy. Since I’m coming from Pasco, what with gas, tolls, parking and beer for a pre-season game? It’s mostly about watching the rookies and that damn banner that took me hours to make. With that a final good night and I mean it this time.

  309. PRBucFan Says:

    lol Your funny, keep on trying to justify your actions it really is humorous to read.

    This “chump” over here will just sit back and laugh at the irony.


  310. Raphael Says:

    Where are all the lightweights ? C’mon man

    ### JF5. We should sign him now , dude can play and if you don’t believe me…just watch out if he hit the open market. He would be the most sought after FA .. Without a doubt .

  311. Raphael Says:

    Last post wins….

    Post 311 …. I win .. Champ right here folks …king of the hill .. Goat poster …

  312. Raphael Says:

    Happy b day. JBF Thanks Joe

  313. the_buc_realist Says:

    The article was an insult to Flacco.

  314. jarrett Says:

    Hawaiin-If superbowls and post season wins were all that mattered like you said then why isn’t terry bradshaw considered better than dan marino.

  315. Couch Fan Says:

    It really is. Comparing a super bowl champion to a sub .500 QB. At least Joe can recognize that there is no comparison to be made yet until Freeman actually wins something.

  316. Macabee Says:

    This post has no content and is the epitome of the term – off topic. In it’s truest form it is posted to only insure that Couch Fan does not get the last word! lol.

    A masterpiece! Rivals Lincoln/Douglas!

  317. Couch Fan Says:

    But I got the last 5 words! lol

  318. Gus Numbers Says:

    I hope Freeman comes out right before week one and announces the words “I am elite” and then goes out proves it. Lol it worked for Eli and Flacco

  319. Sneedy16 Says:

    Man Joe know how to get comments going.

  320. Hawaiian Buc Says:


    There’s a lot of people that do think Bradshaw is better. But again, you are comparing players from different eras. Its more fair to ask who’s better: Joe Montana or Dan Marino? Marino’s stats kill Montana’s. But you know damn well who’s the better QB.

  321. Hawaiian Buc Says:

    Not to mention that Marino got his team to the playoffs more often than not. You can create these ridiculous comparisons all you like, but at the end of the day they still end up being ridiculous.

  322. jarrett Says:

    no one thinks bradshaw is better no one. Winning does not equal good. Good equals good. Freeman and flacco are comparable, the teams they played on the last 4 years are not comparable.

  323. Hawaiian Buc Says:

    You didn’t answer the real question. How convenient. If you really think they are comparable then I’m sorry, you are stupid.

  324. Hawaiian Buc Says:

    Look at their TD to INT ratio. Look at how they play in big games. Neither are comparable. I promise you if you ask every coach and GM which QB they would rather have, EVERY SINGLE ONE would choose Flacco. That includes ours.

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