More Numbers To Suggest Freeman Still Learning

July 4th, 2010

josh freeman 0505fEarlier today, Joe brought you news that Sirius NFL Radio’s Pat Kirwan suggested Bucs quarterback Josh Freeman (among other NFL quarterbacks who will start a full season for the first time) will struggle this year.

Some of Joe’s readers mocked Kirwan for such a stance. But on, Kirwan document his research that led to his conclusion. Kirwan emphasizes this is not a knock on Freeman, but to note that it — with rare exceptions — takes time for a quarterback to learn the NFL game.

After looking at 30 quarterbacks and their first full season as starters, here’s what to expect for this year’s new full-time starters on third downs. They will complete less than 60 percent of their passes, convert less than 38 percent of the third downs, average less than 6.8 yards an attempt, throw more interceptions than touchdowns and average a sack a game.
If the fans realize that is part of the growing pains of the job, they will give the young starters the breathing room needed to grow and succeed. If fans expect more and get frustrated, especially in Philadelphia where the Eagles still have to face Donovan McNabb twice a year, they aren’t being realistic about the difficulty of the third-down execution.
After looking at 30 quarterbacks and their first full season as starters, here’s what to expect for this year’s new full-time starters on third downs. They will complete less than 60 percent of their passes, convert less than 38 percent of the third downs, average less than 6.8 yards an attempt, throw more interceptions than touchdowns and average a sack a game.

If the fans realize that is part of the growing pains of the job, they will give the young starters the breathing room needed to grow and succeed. If fans expect more and get frustrated, especially in Philadelphia where the Eagles still have to face Donovan McNabb twice a year, they aren’t being realistic about the difficulty of the third-down execution.

Now Joe understands this is not to say Freeman will not be a good quarterback. Joe just knows to have patience. Could Freeman have a great year? Of course. But the numbers and NFL history suggest not this year. Not yet.

49 Responses to “More Numbers To Suggest Freeman Still Learning”

  1. BamBamBuc Says:

    Much of what the article talks about is QB efficiency on 3rd down (the “money” down according to him). What it doesn’t talk about is 4th quarter poise, which Freeman did show last year, leading the team back in the 4th a couple times, only to have the D lose it. With the kind of poise he showed last year in the 4th quarter, I don’t think it’s a big transition for him to show that same poise on the “money” down as well throughout the game. Also, add an improved D (even slightly improved and we win more games last year) and healthy, young, talented (albeit unproven) WRs and he has the tools to win quite a few more games than last year. He should show improvement this year, how much is yet to be determined.

    I don’t care how many articles want to make things out to be worse than they are, or fans being negative based upon last year, I still see the positive changes in the team for this year and it should be better. If not, I understand the growing pains of a young, inexperienced team and won’t call for the hangman’s noose on Freeman if he experiences these common pitfalls in year 2.

  2. drdneast Says:

    Wow, what rocket science. A team without a proven wide receiver and two rookies looking to crack the starting lineup. An offensive line that is now suspect and a running game that wasn’t even used last year and Oppenheimer says Freeman will struggle. What does he base his conclusions on? Here’s another prediction. Using his comment, if the Bucs average just one sack a game and thier running gmae averages over 160 yars a game and they run the ball more than they pass, Freeman will lead his team to at least an 8-8 record

  3. Radio Mushmouth Says:

    Young QB’s will have growing pains ??

    Thank you Capt. Obvious !

  4. thomas Says:


    You see “positive changes” this year. What? They havent even started training camp yet. Every team in the league thinks that they improved through the draft right now. If that is true, this team didnt get any better. You dont have a shred of evidence to say that the team is better. Maybe Mccoy, price and miller play worse than Hovan, Sims and Wilkerson this year.

    I hope you were joking re 160 rush yards per game with one sack. This team may not average 160 rushing yards for 2 games and will probably give up a sack a quarter. That is like saying: I guarantee you that if we score more points than the opponents 8 times that we will win 8 games. This team has NO Prayer of winning 8 games.

  5. BamBamBuc Says:


    you say this team will “probably” give up a sack a quarter. What? They haven’t even started training camp yet. Same thing with your comment about NO Prayer of winning 8 games. Give it a rest. You can say you’re basing it off of last year, but this isn’t the same team. There are “changes”. One change is that they still have the same HC, OC, DC this year that they ended with last year giving the team an offseason to work in one system.

    You’re right, I can’t say McCoy will be better than Sims. If he’s not, he wasn’t worth a 6th round draft choice, much less a first. I think he’ll be an improvement over Sims.

    I also can’t say that Brown/Williams/Benn will be better than Clayton, but I’m guessing that not a single individual on here believes that at least one of those 3 isn’t better, and probably all 3 are.

  6. Capt.Tim Says:

    BamBam- be careful about thomas! Him and his life Partner Eric both claim to have recently gained incredible psychic powers. Something about inserting their heads in their rectums and gaining “rectum vision” . They can now predict all things Buccaneer. And according to them, the future is really really scary

  7. eric Says:

    Im expecting another 3-13 season, with two wins coming late at mop up time.

    What are you geniuses predicting?

    Perhaps you can enlighten us with your supperior knowledge.

    And, yes, the team has changed, its gotten worse………………..

  8. JimBuc Says:

    Thomas and Eric:

    The tell-tale sign of “haters” and “Kool-Aid Drinkers” is that they are UNREASONABLE. That is, they say things to defend their position that are absurd. To wit, Thomas said:

    “You see “positive changes” this year. What? They havent even started training camp yet. Every team in the league thinks that they improved through the draft right now. If that is true, this team didnt get any better. You dont have a shred of evidence to say that the team is better. Maybe Mccoy, price and miller play worse than Hovan, Sims and Wilkerson this year.”

    Thomas, that response is, on its face, absurd because it is so UNREASONABLE. The only reasonable conclusion that one should be able to reach at this point is that the Bucs should be improved. To many reasons to list, but here are a few: 2nd year coach, full offseason for OC and QB, younger better guys at DT, etc. We all know that there have been no games played yet, but to suggest there has been no improvement, or even more ridiculous, that the Bucs have regressed is ABSURD.

    Which brings us to Eric, who said:

    “Im expecting another 3-13 season, with two wins coming late at mop up time.

    And, yes, the team has changed, its gotten worse………………..”

    Eric, that comment makes you a hater and a TROLL. Silly, ridiculously unreasonable drivel. Seek professional help soon.

  9. sensiblefan Says:


    Improvement is certainly possible when compared to last year, an admittedly low bar to surpass. All 22 starters and the coaching staff should either be improved or at least keep the status quo from last year’s 3 (almost 4 win) campaign:

    1) Freeman, Hayes, and Black will be 2nd year starters; their production should increase based on increased experience on the NFL level

    2) The rest of the starters in the backfield, tight end, and o-line should be fine to give us similar production from last year. Only Winslow and Cadillac really had standout years. Perhaps with another season under the Olson regime the o-line will play up to it’s billing.

    3) The receiving corps, defensive line, and secondary have had an infusion of new talent via the draft and free agency. Nobody really knows what will happen with the rookies. They could be good, bad or ugly. McCoy, Roy and Price look leaps and bounds better than Hovan and Ryan Waste of Life Sims on paper so I’ll rate the d-line as upgraded. If the WRs completely flop (doubtful) we still have Winslow to throw to, Myron Lewis or Biggers should improve the nickel slot, and Sean Jones should be an upgrade over Sabby.

    Based on the natural upward progression of our young starters, being in the same offensive and defensive systems for a year, and the rookies being mildly productive, I don’t think 6 to 8 wins is out of the question.

  10. JimBuc Says:

    Right, and it should be obvious to any REASONABLE observer that even if they did not add a single player the defense would improve just by virtue of the fact that it will be a Morris-led, Tampa-2 defense with a full offseason rather than a Bates-led, man/quarters defense, with a mid-season change. I mean, did you watch last season? Like I said, UNREASONABLE.

  11. Gary Says:

    After everything that could have went wrong last year and did go wrong, if you honestly think this team is the same or worse, you are completely nuts.

    Nevermind all the football aspects that have changed for the better which other posters have commented on. Simple logic tells you that there is a high probability there will be less mistakes and problems this year because EVERYTHING went wrong last year, save a few bright spots.

    Common sense tells you this team will be better this year. Add to that all the positives of a good draft class, better coaching, better QB and its a no brainer. If you are a fan of this team, how can you sit there and predict they will be worse, or even the same? Don’t whine about being called a hater when you make insane statements like that!

  12. Ðaddydaddydaddy Says:

    I think Eric, Thomas, RahDomDaBest should sit in the pool wearing their pink snuggies to get the full effect of being full blown head to toe wet blankets. Seriously, admit your Dolphins fans or disgruntled ex-Bucs employees or fans of Chelsea or Arsenal. The negativity before even one snap has been taken is beyond belief. Ownership, management, coaching staff and the team you detest so much isn’t going anywhere anytime soon so why prolong your misery. This isn’t a codependent relationship because the Bucs don’t need or want you for anything so why stick around, seriously! There’s 31 other teams to choose from that have everything you’re looking for- Saints, Patriots, Chargers to name a few. If you’re holding your breath for a coup or regime change then you will be turning blue in the face shortly. You don’t have to drink the kool-aid but you don’t have to rip everything apart before it’s happened. If I didn’t know any better I’d think you want them to lose just so you can throw an “I told you so” at everyone.

  13. BigMacAttack Says:

    So it’s either Koolaid or its Hater-aid. At least there’s no more Jim Bater-aid. Just don’t need no Traitor-aid, unless you want some Raider-aid, or the dark side of Darth Vader-aid. Going Fishing, so I gotta get some Baiter-aid, so I’ll see you Later-aid.

  14. BamBamBuc Says:

    I’m not seeing much argument to your points, but I’ll add more fuel for the negative bunch to chew on.

    This year there is no “home” game in London, which at least gives the possibility of another win. At least it doesn’t take away from practice time during the week and no dealing with jetlag.

    No NFC East on the schedule this year. Looking at the draft positions of the Cowboys, Eagles, Giants and Skins compared to the Cards, 9ers, Hawks and Rams it should be obvious the competition this year isn’t as difficult as last year. Potential for another win or 2?

    The Panthers are in no better position than the Bucs, maybe worse. Sure, they have their run game and O-line still. But, they’re in no better position at QB. They are either playing with a QB that’s in his “1st full season” in Moore (just like Freeman), or they’re playing a rookie QB (Clausen). They’re really hurting at WR, and Smith just broke his arm and may not be ready for the season opener. Their D-line is decimated with the losses of Peppers and Damione Lewis. WLB Thomas Davis tore his ACL and won’t be back. This could bode well (another 2 wins and a streak broken?)

    I’m not going to predict a win-loss record. I’m hoping for a playoff appearance, but realistically see us missing out this year (but not by as much as some think).

    Saying a coach or GM can’t improve as much in his 2nd year as a player could I think is a bit ridiculous, but it’s your opinion, not mine.

  15. Capt.Tim Says:

    Hey BigMac, you let one off! Eric and Thomas both try to be “sailor-aid” down on the docks! ‘er, meybe thats different! They both are big gulpers of “traitor-aid”, though. That’s for sure. Team still has some restocking ta do, but it will definately be improved this year. A couple of injuries in a few key spots would kill us. OL – most of our backups are gonna be unstaffed free agent rookies, with no game experience. DE- low on talent to begin with. Figure on White and Moore starting. Crowder looks good, but not much after that.starting secondary is good, but again, any injury is gonna end up with backups that have no game experience. As the year progresses, I think the backups will slowly get game experience, and by next year, could step in if needed. But this year- three or four injuries at the wrong spots equals three or four untested, inexperienced rookies on the field. That, to go with the Rookies we already figure ta start, Is gonna really kill us! But at least we have young players learning to play!! I was so tired of running on old retreads that I was ready to puke. Now, if we can keep’em healthy, we’ll have some young EXCITING players to watch for the next eight ta ten years. No one ta get excited about in these parts for years til recently. Watching old guys get older ain’t my idea of Buc football. The only people who were excited about those days were Thomas and Eric, because they are both sales reps for “Geritol”. With the Gruden “over the hill gang”, sales were way up. Now you know why they’re crying.

  16. Capt.Tim Says:

    Oh yeah, ya wanted a prediction! I boldly predict that , if the Bucs win 3 of their first five games, the shame of it will cause Thomas and Eric break up permanently. If the bucs win 7 games or more, they will never post on Joebuc again, as I personally will be tormenting them every time they try. Once they are shamed into silence, I will look at this as one of the greatest seasons ever! And they will relocate to what ever city is dumb enough to hire Gruden for a coach! Might have to wait awhile on that one, having an entire NFL team mutiny on you has never happened to an NFL before, and doesn’t look good on his resume. He might be forced ta stick to that Announcer gig for a long time . . .

  17. eric Says:

    Thanks Captain Tim,

    Ill check back with ya after five games. Ill be right here posting, right or wrong. We shall see what rock you and the others climb under.

    I note you are the only one with the courage to make a prediction. Jimbuc, for example, never does so he can adjust his positive spin to whatever the record happens to be. That way, he can never be taken to task for his BS and can rely on theororetical improvement.

    The team is worse, minus AB, and no replacement. Rookies wont upgrade the defense in 2010, perhaps they will in future years.

    Plus our starting left tackle is a no show and pissed.

    And lastly, another year of training under the Dream can only make you worse………………..

  18. JimBuc Says:

    Eric — thanks for illustrating the point:

    “And lastly, another year of training under the Dream can only make you worse………………..”

    You are consistent.

    By the way, I have said that the Bucs win 5 or 6 games. I have also said that improvement is the key.

  19. eric Says:

    WOW 5 or 6 games!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hear that everyone, AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Two more than my prediction, which makes me a “hater”.

    Thank goodness we got this guy as coach. Wow, what an awesome improvement, five or six games!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wooooooooooo hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

    Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, can hardly wait for kickoff! Three cheers for Dom too! Can’t understand the blackouts, we might win five games! Call the marketing guy i got a new slogan………..”the drive for five”!!!!!!!!!!!

    Good thing we got rid of that Gruden guy for that!

    Now I understand everything…………

  20. drdneast Says:

    Apparently you aren’t astute enough to pick up the subtle hints of sarcasm I used in my posting. I think the only team that averaged one sack a game was the Colts. Doubtful if the Bucs will achieve such success this year. As for the 160 yards per game mark, the Bucs do have the capability to achieve such a lofty goal but they have to stay committed to the run. This is entirely up to the coaching staff and OC Greg Olsen, who didn’t display the mental toughness to stay with this game plan last year. The Jets, albeit with a much better defense, managed to do so last year.

  21. BigMacAttack Says:

    8-8 is totally possible. as Drd said. 6 on the low end and 10 on the high end.

  22. eric Says:

    Ok, I have my legal pad out and taking names on these predictions………………………….

    I note the absolute “pie in the sky” high end is exactly one win more that Chucky got his last season.


    Perhaps we can hear when the dynasty starts?

  23. BamBamBuc Says:

    One more win than Chucky got his last season would have put us in the playoffs that year, and probably would again this coming year. Isn’t that what it’s all about?

    I would figure that’s not bad for a 2nd year head coach. Making the playoffs. Sure, others have done it, some even made it their first year. But for a team totally destitute of talent to make the playoffs in year 2 would be nearly a miracle. Like I said, I’m figuring they miss the playoffs, but not by as much as people think, and I don’t think they’ll be last in the South either.

  24. eric Says:

    The “totally destitute team” had back to back winning seasons, and two Division Titles in the previous four years.

    amazing how the double standard is applied to “Rah”.

    I recall a destitute team called the Raiders when a very young and inexperienced coach took over………………with a lunatic owner, and turned it around on a dime.

    Let me ask this question, is there any record that the bucs could have this year that would casue the koolaid drinkers to think it is time for Rah to go?

    Or, is he going to get a complete pass no matter what, which is what I am hearing.

  25. JimBuc Says:

    Eric — you are not a “hater” for your prediction and you know that. Nice try. Go back to reading you Gruden sonnets

  26. JimBuc Says:

    Eric — I love it. Your true colors are shining through. You keep using the “two Division Titles in the previous four years” while omitting 2 seasons with 4 and 5 wins, respectively, first round playoff exits and Gruden completing his 7 years with just over a .500 record and a team in a total state of collapse (9 guys never playing again etc). LOL. Fair and balanced 🙂 Fair and balanced 🙂

  27. BamBamBuc Says:

    eric, no double standard. The destitute team called the Raiders took 3 years to “turn around”. That’s not turning on a “dime”. If it took Gruden 3 years in Oakland to turn them around, why not give Morris the same opportunity in Tampa? Is it just because he replaced Gruden? Is that why he’s getting no chance to turn this around?

    To answer your question… I’d say that if the Bucs are 3-13 again this year, I’d be thinking Morris probably isn’t the answer. I expect improvement.

    Gruden’s first year with the “destitute” Raiders, he shuffled 3 QBs through the season (hmmm…. sounds like Morris and the Bucs last year). That year he had Tim Brown get 81 rec. for 1012 yds and James Jett add another 882 yds and TE Ricky Dudley add 549 yds. Napolean Kaufman was actually a decent RB. Their D-line was pretty good too, with Russell and Johnstone combining for 21 sacks. Charles Woodson made the Pro-Bowl for them alongside Russell. Desmond Howard even returned a couple kicks for TDs. Where’s the destitute team? Seems to me like he had pretty good talent to work with… and it still took him 3 years to get to the playoffs.

  28. Lakeland Bob Says:

    It’s called rebuilding Eric,it doesn’t happen overnite.Do you remember the pain of only needing one more win to get in the playoffs in 2008 and having Carolina run the ball down our throats on Monday nite football.And Jemarcus Russell and the Oakland Raiders came into Tampa and whipped our asses because we were to damn old to play four quarters.It’s not how you start Eric,it’s how you finish.No playoff wins in six years after having the best team in football.Changes had to be made.Put me down for 8 wins this year and 10 next year if they settle the CBA issue.

  29. eric Says:


    Last four years of Gruden:

    2005 11-5 (Division Title)
    2006 4-12
    2007 9-7 (Division Title)
    2008 9-7

    That isnt two Division Titles and three winning seasons in four years?

    That record reflects a team in “total collapse”? Rah should be so lucky to collapse.

    I also note you completely omit a little thing called the Super Bowl Championship? Think that is fair? The only one in franchise history?

    It is the Rah lovers who misrepresent history and suffer from delusions, not I. Of course your fearless leader does also, as he thinks the bucs almost won every game with Freeman last year.

    Anyhow, you have expressed the utmost confidence in the plan, prediciting 5-6 wins………………….pretty much says it all.

  30. eric Says:

    Lakeland Bob,

    And last year wasn’t humiliating?

    You made the list sir, eiight/ten wins it is!

  31. eric Says:


    Raiders were 4-12 in 1997, year before Gruden took over. 8-8 season the first year. I call that a turn around.

    What would you call it?

    In contrast 9-7 to 3-13 for Rah, which apprently you like………………

  32. JimBuc Says:

    Eric — even when you try to defend yourslef, you just dig yourself deeper. Leet’s just agree to always refer to Gruden’s entire body of work. Yes, he won a Super Bowl in part by bringing on key offensive free agents and in part because Dungy (and Wyche) built the nest defense over a ten year period through the draft, right?

    From the Super Bwol to his termination, Gruden was barely over .500 right? he got the team to the playoffs a few times. Each time was a first round exit. he also has a team go 4 wins (one better that Morris) and nother team go 5 wins (two better than Morris)

    At the end of his 7 years, the team that he took over from Dungy had 5 or 6 or 7 different quaterbacks, including Garcia at the end, who never played again and who Gruden said he would have brought back if he returned.

    At the end of his 7 years, he never replaced Sapp and Brooks and Lynch — the guys that made the Bucs competitive for nealry a decade.

    Fair enough? Just over .500. Couple division titles but also a couple stinker seasons and, yes, a team in collapse.

    Can we stop talking about Gruden now? At an ABSOLUTE minimum, can we agree that the team Morris got from Gruden was A LOT DIFFERENT than the team that Gruden got from Dungy?

  33. admin Says:

    Joe here,

    For those who weren’t familiar with Eric’s reference to Raheem The Dream thinking the Bucs almost won all of Freeman’s starts.

    “I made no secrets about tying myself to Josh Freeman when I selected him,” Raheem The Dream said. “That’s the type of guy I want to be around. That’s the type of guy I want to lead our franchise. As soon as he got the reins to the helm, I felt like he could win every football game. And we almost did with him playing. That’s where we are right now.”

  34. JimBuc Says:

    Eric — why is it that you seem to think the world is going to end at the conclusion of the next NFL season?

  35. eric Says:


    Ok, ill agree on most points.

    But, would you not also agree that losing all the draft choices made it almost impossible for Gruden to keep that team on the same level? Plus the salary cap?

    And, furthemore, the man did rebuild to the point of playoff contention if not Super Bowl Champs.

    You of all people, being the defender of the NFL draft would have to concede losing two number ones and two number twos had an impact.

    So, my question is why do you defend and excuse Morris, but not Gruden?

    You really think deep in that Jimbuc heart that Rah is as good a coach as Gruden?

  36. BamBamBuc Says:


    Admittedly, the comment was a bit of an exaggeration. There were a few games we had no chance to win once Freeman took over the reigns.

    Freeman won 3 of 9 games he started. Looking at the 6 losses, this is what I see.

    Week 10 – Miami – Took the lead late in the 4th quarter to go up 23-22. Lost on a last second FG 25-22. I felt like we had a chance to win that game too.

    Week 12 – Atlanta – Had the lead 17-13 to start the 4th quarter (came back from down 10-0), and lost in the 4th on a TD to Roddy White. I thought we had a chance in that game too.

    Week 17 – Atlanta – Tied the game 10-10 early in the 4th quarter. Eventually lost 20-10. Any game that’s tied or we have a lead in the 4th quarter, I feel we have a chance to win.

    Although Freeman had 5 INTs and no TDs against Carolina in our 16-6 loss, we were only down 10-6 at half with a chance to win. He threw for 351 yards, AB had over 100 receiving, but nobody could score. That game is a bit more of a stretch, but down 10-6 at half… I feel we have a chance to win.

    So, 4 of 6 losses I felt we had a chance to win…. I don’t think what he said was all that bad or wrong. Even I felt like we had a much better chance to win once he took over.

  37. BamBamBuc Says:

    I’ll answer your question from my perspective, eric. Why do I excuse Morris but not Gruden?

    Because Morris has only coached one year, and I don’t know what we’ve got in him yet for starters. He may be a great coach given more than one year. I’ve already pointed out that many coaches didn’t come in their first year and take the NFL by storm, but went on to have very good careers.

    Secondly, because Gruden’s offense was getting worse, not better in his 3rd, 4th and 5th years with the team. I understand the lack of draft choices hurt even into year 3, but by years 4 and 5 I would have expected improvement and we didn’t get that.

    Third, although I’m glad he got us to the playoffs twice in the 6 years after his Super Bowl win, the last appearance with the 9-7 record as division champ was really a “gimme” from the NFC South. No other team in the division was better than 7-9. We looked more like the NFC West that year, which is what I attribute the Cardinals being in the playoffs to. Sure, Fitz is a great WR, but the Cards aren’t that good but they make it because the Hawks, Rams and 9ers are horrible. That won’t fly in the South more than that one time. With teams like the Saints, the Falcons have improved and the Panthers typically pretty good, we need better than 9-7 to be division champs under normal circumstances.

  38. BamBamBuc Says:

    And, yes, I understand that my comment “Morris may be a great coach given more than one year” is purely speculation and not necessarily the case. He may also be horrible. But that’s not something that can be determined in one season.

  39. Capt.Tim Says:

    As I have said repeatedly, Jon “the Locust” Gruden inherited a team with great talent, perennial All-Pros, and good depth. Horrible drafting, plus a refusal to teach/ Coach young players, and an absolute obsession with collecting over the hill players from other teams discard pile, has left this team with No talent, No All-Pros, and No depth. His stragegy was crystal clear. Lose one year, get the losers schedule the next year, duct tape enuff old guys ta gather to win in the losers bracket, and TADA, save yer ass for another year. Worst to first to worst, because the old guys can’t win except against the teams that are in the middle of rebuilding!!! There was NEVER any chance of those teams winning in the playoffs! NEVER!! We were going NOWHERE with that guy!! To build a SuperBoWl contender, ya gotta have young, talented players, that grow better ever year and improve, then you throw a few free agents in the mix ta make your push for the title. The only thing Grudens teams were pushing for was their damn pensions. The Glazers are the most dedicated ta winning owners in the whole friggin league. Dungy built a great team, but was to conservative in the playoffs to ever win, So they fired his Ass. They paid a fortune for Gruden ta get the title, but he couldn’t draft/coach, the team talent level dropped, so they fired his sorry ass, even though it cost them a fortune! They didn’t care! They said at his Firing, it was because of his refusal to develop young talent, specifically a Qb! And believe me, Morriswas hired because he has shown he CAN coach young talent. If you don’t see these young players improving, and our talent base getting deeper, they’ll fire his ass too! These guys don’t screw around. You’re either fighting for the SuperBowl, or your ass is history!! Everyone who isn’t an idiot can see that Chucky left this tram with no real talent anywhere. Not a sniff of an All-Pro on this roster. So Morris is gonna get a little time ta work the magic. But with the Glazers, it ain’t gonna be long! Anyone who looks at the team Morris got stuck with can see we weren’t close to being any kind of competitive. Gonna take a while to rebuild. Smart fans( that leaves Eric and Thomas-the rectum heads – out) realize this, and are willing to be patient. The other idiots are too busy with their man crush fantasies ta see anything but their ” Chucky gone wild” poster, so I don’t care if they get it or not!

  40. Outside01 Says:

    Where was the outrage when Gruden led us to 4-12 and 5-11? He won the superbowl with the #1 rated defense and #26th offense his first year, then never won a post season game again. I must have missed the greatness. Apparently the Glazers did too. I mean for cheap owners that don’t care about the team to eat $12 million in losses in order to cut him, well that says alot. He had this team going nowhere but down. Atleast we have nowhere to go but up now.

  41. Capt.Tim Says:

    Lakeland Bob,BamBam, outside01, geez, your intelligent and correct post are the only thing that keeps some of these idiots from giving me a brain Tumor!! I swear I don’t know how some of these guys walk around with hurting themselves! So thank you all for reminding me that the majority of Buc fans are smart guys, not the morons we deal with here! Thank you, thank you!

  42. eric Says:

    Well, we are playing the last place schedule this year, so the easy Division Title should be obtained.

    Of course the 9-7 season of 08 was with the first place schedule, but facts are always besides the point with Gruden haters. And, to say there was no chance to win against the Redskins in 05 is rediculous, and 07 against eventual Super Bowl Champs Giants was close too. I wonder when Rah’s first round playoff loss will occurr? Or a winning season?

    How about never in a million years?

    More evidence to follow in September, you losers.

  43. JimBuc Says:

    Eric — sound like we are reaching some common ground. Let me answer your questions:

    Absolutely, 100% no doubt that Gruden was hampered by all of the lost picks and that the lost premium picks were not his fault. (What I don’t understand is why you continually advocate for giving up picks when you now acknowledge the cost?)

    But, you cannot make that statment without mentioning that they never used what picks they had to try to find a QB and the whiffed on both premium (Adams, Jackson) picks and late round picks (too many to list)

    Here’s one place we differ. Gruden did not “rebuild” to the point of playoff contention. He cobbled together teams that he was able to occassionaly get to the playoffs. His teams also did not “contend” in the playoffs, they exited immediately. This fact points to Gruden’s key flaw. “Rebuilding” assumes the replacement of the foundation. The Bucs never did that under Gruden. They never took a short term hit to find a franchise QB or to truly replace the likes of Sapp, Brooks, Lynch etc. Instead, every year they plugged in players to try to win immediately. It got them to the playoffs once or twice, but also to the cellar once or twice and I don’t think that anyone could say with a straight face that the Bucs ever had a deep playoff or Super Bowl caliber team again under Gruden.

    Here’s what you misunderstand. I do defend Gruden — as a coach. In fact, I think his X and Os coaching ability masked the decline. I also do not defend Morris. I am defending patience and reasonableness. It is, with all due respect, RIDICULOUS, to compare Morris’s situation taking over the team with Grudens. Opposite ends of the spectrum.

    No way do I think that Morris is a better coach than Gruden. He may be some day. He may not be. Who knows? However, I do think that Morris and Dom could be better for the Bucs than Gruden and Allen. In particular, I think that Morris and Dom are better for the Bucs NOW than Gruden and Allen would have been. Many examples, but I will point out one. At the end of his last season, Gruden’s “plan” was to bring back Garcia. That means we don’t get Freeman. Freeman may not turn out to be great, but having Freeman now is better than Garcia for a year, some other veteran for another year, another veteran for another year etc.

    So, no one is comparing Gruden to Morris except you and the other Gruden defenders. The reason no one else is making that comparison is because the approaches are completly different — night and day. Gruden would probably win more now, but he would never probably go beyond a first round playoff exit and the years would probably be up and down. What the Bucs are trying to do — and it has little to do with Morris — is repeat what they did when the Glazers took over, which was to build primarily through the draft. There are other issues — money, CBA etc — that impact the current philosophy no doubt, but how can a Buc fan disagree with the approach given the long period of success the Bucs had (1996 to 2008), which was based on a defense that was almost entirely drafted????

  44. JimBuc Says:

    LOL. I obviously did not read Eric’s “you losers” comment before I mentioned reaching some “common ground.” Eric, you are a trip.

  45. BigMacAttack Says:

    If Raheem continues to make stupid mistakes that cost the team wins, He Should Be Fired.
    If the defense looks like a sieve and doesn’t improve, HSBF.
    If they only win 3 games again, HSBF.
    If Greg Olson doesn’t run the ball and flounders again, They both SBF.
    This is a cakewalk schedule compared to last year and if Raheem can’t win 6 games, HSBF. But if he loses a few games by close calls or freak plays that keep them from winning, against good teams, he should get a pass.
    If no one renews their seats after a dismal season, HSBF.
    And if all of the above occur they should all be fired.

  46. eric Says:


    For the record, you are my favorite loser……………..

    Glad we established two essential facts today:

    1. Gruden is better than Morris.

    2. We are gonna suck this year.

  47. JimBuc Says:

    Eric — I consider it a badge of honor to be your favorite loser.

    Gruden is better than Morris, now. We may suck this year. We may not. The key is will we be better over the next decade?

    Now go back from whence you came. Your instant coffee is ready and I hear your microwave corndogs beeping. Good luck betting it all on ready tonight.

  48. Colby Says:

    It all really rests on the performance of the rookie receivers in my opinion. If they are as good as we might think then our boy won’t have to throw as many risky passes and rather let the receivers make plays.

  49. Outside01 Says:

    It all depends on the play of our defensive and offensive line. Same with every other team. It always starts and ends with your lines. Always does, always will.