“Jaws” Not Sold On Josh Freeman

July 5th, 2013

Few people have both the access and the knowledge to break down countless hours of NFL film to determine players’ pros and cons.

Greg Cosell of NFL Films comes to mind. He’s en elite football mind, but if one was to nitpick, one could make the empty argument that Cosell never played in the NFL. Well, neither did dozens if not hundreds of NFL coaches. Bill Belicheat never played in the NFL, either, nor did Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs, Bill Parcells or Chucky, to name a few.

This cannot be said about former Eagles quarterback Ron Jaworski.

Better known as “Jaws” on BSPN, he too is an employee of NFL Films and he brings his considerable NFL experience as a signal-caller to breaking down quarterbacks.

The four-letter is slowly releasing Jaws’ quarterback rankings each day and, to be polite, Jaws is not enamored with Bucs quarterback Josh Freeman. He has Freeman, who he referred to as “an enigma,” ranked No. 21, documents Marc Sessler of NFL.com.

During a midseason stretch that saw the Buccaneers go 5-1 last season, “Freeman played with a swagger,” Jaws said. “He was always willing to pull the trigger, attacking all levels of the defense. What I really love was the anticipation.”

Then Freeman tumbled off a cliff. “He was erratic with his accuracy. He had many communication issues with his receivers,” Jaws said.

Jaworski pointed out a disturbing figure: Only Mark Sanchez of the New York Jets had a lower passer rating when facing pressure. That’s when we saw Freeman mightily struggle at reading coverages and making split-second decisions.

Mark Sanchez?!

This is exactly the problem Joe has with Freeman, not counting his 6-15 mark against teams with a winning record (one of those wins came against a team that already locked up home field advantage for the playoffs). The guy simply wilts under pressure.

Joe points to the Broncos game last year. The Bucs’ defense may have played its best half of football, all but bottling up Peyton Manning in the first two quarters with the Bucs holding a narrow 10-7 halftime lead. If the Broncos were ripe for an upset, it was this game. But given a chance by the defense for Freeman to lead the Bucs to a thrilling, signature win, Freeman turned impotent against the Broncos pass rush, thus enabling the Broncos to rally for a win.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s what defensive pressure is supposed to do to quarterbacks. The bad ones. Ben Roethlisberger seems to thrive under heat. Same with Joe Flacco. Pressure doesn’t seem to rattle Aaron Rodgers too much. Joe could go on.

During a run at a Super Bowl, a quarterback naturally is going to be under heat from a defense. The elite quarterbacks get past that and find ways to win, create plays.

Thus far, Freeman rarely shows that ability against good teams.

Now to be fair, Jaws was knocking Freeman for lack of communication. Joe vividly remembers after a weekday practice last season, receiver Mike WIlliams, as nice a guy as there is, went off on how he and his fellow receivers were not “on the same page” as Freeman and much of the criticism lodged at Freeman should instead be dropped on the receivers; it takes two to communicate and it isn’t always the quarterback’s fault.

Freeman can make the plays. Joe has seen it. There are two plays that jump out at Joe, both elite plays. One was a touchdown pass against the stinking Panthers on the road, and a second on the road against the Dixie Chicks where Freeman absolutely threaded a needle, throwing a blazing heat-seeking- missile-like pass for a score.

Those are the types of passes Freeman needs to be more consistent with. They were both works of beauty, both coming on the road, both under pressure, both against division foes, both in close games. If Freeman can throw more passes like those two, and not like this, with another year under his belt in Mike Sullivan’s offense, there is no reason to believe Freeman cannot be a better quarterback, and perhaps an elite quarterback.

168 Responses to ““Jaws” Not Sold On Josh Freeman”

  1. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    And let the Freeman bashing begin………….

  2. Jbskiff Says:

    What has happened to your site Joe? This is almost impossible for an iPhone. How do I switch it back?

  3. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    Jaworski sucked as a QB and he sucks as a talent evaluator. Personally, I would accept Greg Cosell, Bill Belicheat, the late Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs, Bill Parcells or Chucky opinion over ratchet “JAWS” anyday.

  4. Couch Fan Says:

    @Buc’n Junkie

    LMAO! Why because his head isnt up Free’s @ss? Everything he said is dead on. Freeman crumples during big moments unless its against crappy teams. He’s proven it over and over again. He has had elite moments. But they have been far and few in between lots of average and bad moments.

    I WANT Freeman to succeed as clearly he is the best option the Bucs (The team I love) have.. BUT, as Jaws said, he needs to improve if he wants to be considered Franchise material.

  5. chris Says:

    I hope Josh is watching. Not that I do not agree with some of Jaw’s analysis. Freeman was terrible against pressure in his face.

    However, this should motivation, at least I hope. Everything I’m hearing from the off-season programs is that Freeman has been lights out first in last out of the building once again and has shown more confidence and swagger and more vocal then he was last year at this time.

  6. Sneedy16 Says:

    Jaws was correct in his assessment. “Then Freeman tumbled off a cliff. “He was erratic with his accuracy. He had many communication issues with his receivers”

    I believe his issues were mainly from seeing defenses that he never seen or practice against. Teams adjusted to the Bucs offense and were able to cause hesitations in the routes, and confusion for the QB.

    That not be the issue seeing that what they’ve been saying all offseason that Freeman has a full grasp of the offense. I sure hope he does, because when teams start throwing the house at Free. He needs to know who to get the ball to, or it’s going to be the same erratic and inaccurate passes. Plus a healthy O-line should help since Meredith was below average at pass blocking.

  7. Buc1987 Says:

    Wow how funny that he mentions the word enigma. If I had a nickel for ever time I’ve said that word about Freeman over the last 4 years…. There simply is no other way for me to describe him. Enigma. Yes Josh bashers I’m sure you have many more words than I to describe him, but I’ll leave it at enigma.

  8. Mitch Says:

    Joe, I am assuming a little here, but I respect the attempt to create a servicable mobile site. However, so far, the new format does not work great for my phone. I enjoyed your home site & could navigate relatively with ease. Now it looks boring and is taking forever for anything to load. Since my phone is the only way I can visit, any site, I’m afraid that my time spent here will be forcefully restricted. I understand with change it takes time & patience to get everything in working order ,but i do hope you can figure out the bugs or reconsider going back to the old format. I appreciate your work and everything you do for us here on Joebucsfan.com. Firmly believe that there isnt another site that provides so much quality information on my favorite team! So thank you, & with great respect, Mitch!!

  9. Mean D Says:

    Okay. Bring it on. Time for the Freeman apologists to start hating on Jaworski now and to roll out another list of useless stats and J-Fro excuses. When the pressure is on Freeman folds like a cheap tent.

    That being fact Freeman will do much better this year. He has the best offense surrounding him of any QB in the NFC South, a greatly improved defense, and finally someone who can step in when he collapses. Regardless of how Freeman plays we are winning 10 games and going to the playoffs this year.

  10. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    Listen fellas, it’s true what Jaworski said, it’s no secret, but c’mon, I’m getting sick and tired of everyone piling on. Just because Jaworski is a former NFL QB, it doesn’t mean you need to be an expert to state the obvious. Freeman either plays at a higher caliber this year or he’s gone. I don’t need to be reminded of it everyday.

  11. Architek Says:

    Why are you people so defensive when it comes to this player? He is not above nor immune to criticism. Stop baby the turnover king and let him add all of the criticism to his personal billboard.

    If Freeman has a right to underperform then skeptics have a right to question his output over the past four years.

  12. Theodore Says:

    Joe, excellent post.

  13. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    I got nothing wrong with this article. Freeman has some work to do. I don’t know of any 25 year old quarterbacks that were already perfect.

    For the record, Matt Ryan was the only quarterback in the league last year that was above .500 against playoff bound teams. Aaron Rodgers was 2-4, .333. Freeman was 2-3, .400.

  14. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Also, for the record, the Bucs scored the seventh most points in the league in the fourth quarter. Sixth most points in the second half. That is quite a bit of points late in the game for a guy so terrible under pressure.

    http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/4th-quarter-points-per-game

  15. tampabaybucfan Says:

    I really like Freeman but I am concerned with his inconsistancy. We saw him panic several times and rush or make errant throws (even short passes). I believe the key to Freeman is to encourage him to run when he is challenged.

    The biggest difference in the “Good Freeman” vs the “Bad Freeman” is that the “Good Freeman” ran and ran very well. In 2010 he was the 2nd leading QB rusher behind Michael Vick. He is leaner and probably quicker now. I think Sullivan & or Schiano have discouraged his running for fear of injury.
    Let him run Coach……..Let him run!!!

  16. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    Listen, it’s true what Jaworski said, it’s no secret, but c’mon, I’m getting sick and tired of everyone piling on. Just because Jaworski is a former NFL QB, doesn’t mean you need to be an expert to state the obvious. Freeman either plays at a higher caliber this year or he’s gone. I don’t need to be reminded of it everyday.

  17. Macabee Says:

    I think Jaworski’s description is fair. To be an enigma is to be hard to understand or explain. In Freeman’s case, it means he can be supremely talented one minute and confounding the next.

    But that’s not all bad. It also means that he is just as likely to play very well as he is to play very bad. You just have to hope that it’s more good than bad. Don’t be lulled into thinking to be inconsistent and enigmatic is just game-to-game. It could be 8 games on and 8 games off or any combination equaling 16. It may even be winning and going to the playoffs this year, getting a new contract and playing horribly next year!

    The only thing that will cure this label is for Freeman to play consistently well over time. Yeah, for now enigma is fair!!

  18. Walter Says:

    I have no issues with Jaws’ take. We already knew that about Freeman. The only reason I argue with the Freeman bashers on this site is because they aren’t like Jaws in their criticism, they are unfair. They put the teams win-loss record all on Freeman, and I have a feeling Jaws wouldn’t agree with that line of thought. He knows that it takes more than a good QB to get to the playoffs.

  19. Couch Fan Says:

    It may even be winning and going to the playoffs this year, getting a new contract and playing horribly next year!

    —————————————————-

    Dont jinx us Mac!!

  20. McBuc Says:

    JAWS is pretty much right on, but that does not mean Freeman will improve with more consistancy around him…Also, if you are going to call him the turn over king, maybe you should go look at all the other turn over kings in the NFL, you may be surprised that many great QBs are right there with him.

  21. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    ^^Drew Brees threw 19 INTs

  22. Walter Says:

    ^^^^^^ Brett Favre owns the damn record for INT’s. lol

  23. Couch Fan Says:

    Both of those guys won super bowls and multiple Division titles. They are proven winners and yes they may have thrown a ton of interceptions, i think its pretty clear that, unlike Freeman so far, those 2 guys can win in this league against anyone. Not an accurate comparison when Freeman has won nothing yet… not even on the same planet as those 2.

    He would be more like a brandon weeden or ryan fitzpatrick, both throw lots of interceptions and neither have won anything yet. I bet you dont like that comparison do ya?

    You play the game to win, not look nice on stat sheets. Hopefully this year with a healthy, talented, well rounded team he can get us over the hump.

  24. Buc1987 Says:

    @Buc’n Junkie..lol when I read most of your posts, it’s like staring in the mirror. Almost like clones. We should hang together and tailgate sometime. And no in case your wondering I’m not a clingy person.

  25. Couch Fan Says:

    You are absolutely right. Brett Favre threw a hell of a lot of Interceptions. Brees led the league in INts. last year. But when you are a proven winner such as a Brees or Favre, those INts. sure are a lot easier to stomach.

    It’s quite clear Freeman is not on there level and probably will never be. I think its more accurate to place him with the likes of a Brandon Weeden or Ryan Fitzpatrick. Guys who have really done nothing yet in this league. Hopefully this year that all changes!

  26. Buc1987 Says:

    I’ll be first on the list to run Freeman out of town by mid season if I don’t see an improved Josh. I mean really enough is enough from him. Once again though our secondary prolly did change a lot of the things they wanted to do on the offensive side of the ball. If Revis is healthy and can pick balls out of the sky like Superman hopefully that sets up some great field position opportunities. 34 more days until the first preseason game!

  27. Bojacksonsucks Says:

    I’ll never understand how QB’s get blamed for their teams records against teams with winning records in a team sport?

    But when someone mentions The Rockstars record as GM, Joe gets overly defensive. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad.

  28. PRBucFan Says:

    At this point who can be???

    That Jaws is a smart man.

  29. stevek Says:

    Freeman needs to get better, no way around it.

    Josh has most definitely been an enigma of an NFL QB.

    Anytime my QB is compared to Mark Sanchez, I am worried.

    2013 will tell for Josh, as he has been inconsistent thus far.

    Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees have SB trophies, Josh doesn’t have a single playoff victory. Please stop comparing the two.

  30. stevek Says:

    21st best QB option on Sunday is not acceptable. Dominick and Schiano have every need to be on the look out for a potential “answer” at QB.

    Can we get a franchise QB?

  31. stevek Says:

    Jaws says: “When you go play-action, you still have to locate your underneath defenders,” Jaworski noted. “You can’t assume they will not be a factor in coverage. … Freeman threw this ball as if the linebacker wasn’t even there. Freeman is an enigma. He has a lot of talent, but he should be a better quarterback after 56 NFL starts.”

    ^^^ This about sums it up. We have every right to be worried, realistic, and fearing for the worse. Why? Because that is what has been established from Freeman.

  32. stevek Says:

    The Buc defense is not to blame for Freeman’s inablities to execute better. Nope.

  33. PRBucFan Says:

    Let me add you NEVER compare proven winners with rings to someone who has won nothing as of yet.

  34. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    ^^^^^ Nope, but the defense didn’t help either. They drove the ball down the field and scored after that turnover. The good teams that have elite QB’s throw INT’s too but their defense usually help them out. It’s a team game stevek. There is not one single perfect QB, they all make mistakes, but their team usually can bail them out after a mistake. Josh never had that luxury. I think he felt he had to make things happen on every possession because practically every time the bad guys got the ball they’d score.

    So he pushed the envelope instead of just throwing the ball away. I also feel that Josh had so much confidence in VJax and Williams that he could just throw it up and they would get it. In retrospect, when defenders were within 5 yards of his receivers, he should have just thrown it out of bounds, and we would have lost most games by a bigger margin. At the least his stats would have looked better, which apparently is most important to some people.

  35. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    But the Bucs defense IS to blame for last years lack of a playoff appearance. The fact remains that Freeman was GOOD ENOUGH in enough games to have us in the playoffs. The defense was BAD ENOUGH in enough games to keep us out. The defense is supposed to hold leads, not the offense. Those that think Freeman needs to be Tom Brady or bust are sadly mistaken. If those that want Freeman gone get their wish, we will spend the better part of the next decade among teams looking for even a mediocre QB.

    Think about this for a minute, as terrible as Freeman is, he holds most of the QB franchise records for the Bucs. Big whoop, right? I mean its an average season for boy wonder Andy Dalton, right? Well, it took 37 years to find a QB even THIS good. Freeman just needs to limit turnovers and make the occasional deep throw off play action in this offense. When he is asked to repeatedly engage in a shoot out because of a terrible defense then bad things will happen. (This is true of MOST quarterbacks.)

    Can’t wait for this season to start already.

  36. PRBucFan Says:

    There both to blame, end of story.

    Freeman should have played much better during that horrible stretch
    AND
    The defense definitely had it woes

    Now please everyone stop repeating yourselves OVER AND OVER AND OVER

    On both sides lol

  37. BuccaneerBonzai Says:

    “Swagger” is something that develops over time when a quarterback trusts his offense and his defense.

    Freeman had swagger when the offensive line was healthy and the WRs & pass catchers were on the ball.

    When the injuries happened on the oline, defenses started getting to him more. People talk about Freeman lacking consistency…last year the oline lacked it. Add both he and his offense not knowing the new scheme as well and it was a little messy.

    Then, when the defense blew the leads…he got sloppy because it felt like he was banging his head against a wall.

    His consistency will improve when he and his WRs know the offense well enough and they can trust each other. Once that happens, his “swagger” will improve.

    And as far as performing under pressure, he has been having to do that since he entered the league. When the trust in his players comes, he’ll learn to trust his own abilities and he’ll improve in pressure situations.

    Just like ALL quarterbacks.

  38. Stevek Says:

    21st best QB option, is not playoff QB play.

    Enigma doesn’t stand for “Franchise QB”.

    The defenses poor play doesn’t justify Freeman’s sh!tty play, nor excuse his complete drop off over the past 2 seasons.

    As Ronde says, “Josh Freeman is teetering”.

  39. crazy Says:

    He definitely wilts in the pocket but used to excel when he scrambled. If anything he scrambled too early too often.

  40. Macabee Says:

    SteveK,

    You make some good points sometimes, but no need to be hyper-critical. Christian Ponder is ranked at 27 and he went to the playoffs last year.

    I’ve read some of your comments where you’ve wished freeman well so I know you can be critical but yet fair!

  41. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    @Macabee

    Do you have a link to that list? I couldn’t find it.

    @Stevek

    21st best QB according to one person. This same person predicted a break out year from Michael Vick last year.

  42. Macabee Says:

    WestCoast,

    Add Andy Dalton at #19.

    http://espnmediazone.com/us/press-releases/2013/07/2013-jaws-qb-countdown/

  43. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Thanks.

    It will be very interesting to see how the rest of that list turns out. It is also great to see the great and powerful Dalton ranked only two spots ahead of Freeman despite making the playoffs twice in two years to Freeman’s zero in four seasons. Nice to see a QB not mindlessly labeled successful just because his team made the playoffs.

  44. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    ^^^Same goes for the number 27th ranked playoff QB Christian Ponder.

  45. lightningbuc Says:

    21st huh? At least our rock star GM wasn’t tempted to trade up in the first round of the ’09 draft to reach for this guy!

  46. Bobby Says:

    I would love to see Freeman execute better and I’m sure he will but if our defense executes better and Freeman plays and puts up the same numbers as last year we will still be in the playoffs. Yes, Freeman is inconsistent. Yes, he had a stretch of really bad games last year. No, that is not the reason we didn’t make the playoffs last year. You can’t say we had a top 10 offense and that’s why we didn’t make the playoffs last year. You can say our defense was ranked dead last in pass D and that lasted all year long until the final game of the year. It wasn’t just a bad stretch…it was a bad season for the D-backs.

  47. SteveK Says:

    Inconsistency at the QB position does not win championships.

  48. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    @Bobby

    I thought you knew? You see, when someone presents facts that display Freeman in anything other than a negative light they are just excuses. The haters dismiss them as excuses for the ninth ranked offense. They dismiss them as excuses for the holder of several franchise records. You see, if Freeman was REALLY a good QB he would have over came a bad defense just like Drew Brees……Oh wait.

    I would also like to add that the pass defense was not simply “bad”, it was literally the second worst in the almost 100 year history of the NFL. (14 yards shy.)

    Good post Bobby.

    @stevek

    Trent Dilfer has a Super Bowl ring. So does Brad Johnson. Inconsistent QBs have and will win championships with a competent team around them.

  49. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    ^^^Eli Manning, the proud holder of two Super Bowl rings had a four game stretch in 2012 with one TDs and six INTs. Sounds pretty inconsistent to me for a guy with two rings. Freeman never connected two games without a TD.

  50. SteveK Says:

    West Coast Buc’s Fan,

    You’ve got to be sh!tting us all.

    How does a bad defense impact the execution of our QB on game days? How does the brutal Defense effect the inconsistent execution of our QB?

    Thanks for beating a dead horse about our pass Defense. It is what it is, 32nd dead last, all 16 games.

    How does our QB go from “Pro Bowl” to “sub-par Rex Grossman” for a 4-5 game period?

    Andy Dalton is a better QB, as he is consistent. He has half the arm, but twice the sense for the game.

    Brad Johnson was pretty damn good for the Bucs, and he took the hits, and made the throws.

    Dilfer was a waste of a 1st round pick. The Ravens D was just that good.

    Why has our QB regressed since 2010? I hope he comes out and proves me wrong, but the past two seasons suggest other.

  51. SteveK Says:

    WCBF,

    What about drive sustainability? How does an offense suffer so much because the QB can’t: audible, throw accurately, keep an offensive drive going beyond 3 and out?

    The fact of the matter is that Freeman is an Engima. No way around it. You see only his good play, but I question his poor play. Who is our bottom line Josh Freeman? The 2012 Josh Freeman was not contract extension football.

    Where are the playoffs?

  52. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    How does a bad defense impact the execution of our QB on game days?

    Very simple. You play the game very differently when you know the opposing offense will always score. You can’t throw that ball away on 3 and 9 because you can’t afford to give it back so you force it and cause turnovers. Extrapolate that over a season and you have a young QB in the first year of a system trying to compensate for a historically bad defense. Never a good place to be, just ask Drew Brees of the 7-9 Saints.

  53. PRBucFan Says:

    Too bad Freeman doesn’t have two rings..

    And don’t you know? If you don’t praise the guy 24/7 posters around here get their panties wadded up.

    Brad was “consistent” throughout his entire career btw. Terrible example

  54. PRBucFan Says:

    Bad Jaws, BAD!!!!

    Apparently some of these people know more about football and more importantly the QB position than you.

    How dare you speak truthfully about Freeman!!!!

  55. PRBucFan Says:

    And yes you can take BJ’s yards and TD’s and point out all the differences but anyone who has eyes and watched Brad “knew” what he was going to give you game in and game out. The guy was very consistent in his play.

  56. Buc1987 Says:

    If the title of the article mentions the word Freeman in it. Along comes 50 plus comments about him. LOL does Joe know what he’s doing or what? I think he knows exactly what he’s doing. He knows how to rile us up. Just mention Freeman and the writing starts flowing like water from Niagra Falls. Pretty sick Joe, pretty sick. Do you like to torture us?lol
    Okay here’s a random comment I’m at a 4th party yesterday and mention to my nephew (20 yrs old) that we just bought our 1st season tickets ever. The first thing he says to me is, they need to get rid of Freeman he’s not a winner. He’s not even a Bucs fan either. Thought I’d pour a little more gas on the fire for the Freeman bashers.

  57. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    If you actually took the time to read my posts you would find that I agreed with Jaws. And I am sorry but Brad Johnson is on most top ten lists of “Worst QB to ever win a Super Bowl”.

  58. Buc1987 Says:

    WestCoast…I tried to explain it in layman’s terms by saying the Bucs bad secondary causes the offense to do things that they would not ordinarely do saying it does effect Freemans play. It was not an excuse for Freeman’s poor play just saying the Bucs secondary was so bad that it possibly causes a QB to force things more. But thank you for breaking it down for the board it was needed.

  59. Buc1987 Says:

    Oh and once again Freeman would have taken the 99 Bucs to the Super Bowl. Sorry to keep repeating it.

  60. BamBamBuc Says:

    Andy Dalton is consistent alright. Passing-wise, he had 10 games with 1 TD or fewer in 2011, and 9 games with 1 TD or fewer in 2012. That dude is tearing it up. Seriously, he’s responsible for 7 points or less in 19 games of 32. An additional 7 games of 2 TDs brings it to 26 of 32 games with 14 points or less. Good thing he has a top 10 defense to win games for him and a 1000 yard rusher the past two seasons. Dalton is off the chains. I bet if we had Dalton at QB, we’d have at least 7 wins… total… over the past two seasons combined…

  61. lightningbuc Says:

    “And I am sorry but Brad Johnson is on most top ten lists of “Worst QB to ever win a Super Bowl”.

    Considering Brad was drafted in the NINTH round it is amazing he’s on any list regarding the Super Bowl. When GM’s trade up into the first round to draft certain QBs, much more is expected of those than 9th round picks. Good analogy.

  62. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    And considering Tom Brady was drafted in the 6th round I am sure it is downright disrespectful to compare him to Peyton Manning, a first round pick.

  63. Buc1987 Says:

    When the the Bucs make the playoffs this season and Josh signs a massive contract I hope all the bashing will cease. I doubt it though it kind of comes with the position. Does he deserve some bashing? Yes maybe so. I expect Freeman to go out and post up career records this season while him AND the REST of the TEAM play well enough to carry them to the playoffs. Those are my expectations. Those are my conditions. Those are my demands. If not I will not re-purchase season tickets.
    Another thing does anyone remember 2011 when Freeman would throw a pick, he would smile and laugh about it as he went to the sidelines? He did it a few times. That used to piss me off. Wonder if Schiano saw that on the game tapes. Enigma.

  64. SteveK Says:

    WCBF,

    Freeman has 2013 to prove it to us all. I can’t wait.

    Is he a “winner”, or his Buc1987′s nephew onto something.

  65. PRBucFan Says:

    And P.S.

    The comment about Jaws wasn’t directed at you ;)

  66. PRBucFan Says:

    Being quite frank it really doesn’t matter what list he’s been placed on it doesn’t change the point I was making. No one was saying he was an ELITE franchise QB, however he was as consistent in what he put out on the field and in his mechanics as a QB can get..

    BJ was also ESPECIALLY consistent throughout our Superbowl year with the exception i’m sure of some stat here or there that year people may grab at to try and make a point with. Jajaja

    but yea, I hear you.

  67. Buc1987 Says:

    I don’t knock Brad at all either. He was a great game manager for the Bucs. By that I mean he did not make too many bad decisions to screw things up. Just saying that Josh can be equal or better than that. I still think it’s all going to iron out this year. Not because I’m an optimist or I look at a glass half full either. Okay I’ll say it. I believe in Greg Schiano. I trust him and believe he won’t let us Buc fans down. Did I trust Raheem too? Seriously. Did anyone expect that 10-6 season or see it coming?NOPE.
    I know they beat a lot of teams without winning records but they did it with a lot less talent than they have now. This is what I base my belief on when I say the Bucs are not only going to the playoffs this year, but they are going to win the South.

  68. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    “Freeman has 2013 to prove it to us all.”

    Yes he does! So quit bashing him before he even has a chance to play! A player on a TEAM can only be considered a “winner” if the players around him are also “winners”. The offense proved its worthiness in 2012. The defense now needs to show it has improved for this team to go anywhere.

    “is Buc1987′s nephew onto something.”

    What?

  69. Jimmy Says:

    West Coast:

    You are absolutely grasping at straws blaming the defense on Freeman. Was Wright and Talib throwing the passes that were incomplete? Was Wright and Talib reading defenses, not recognizing routes, throwing balls at the feet of running backs, throwing balls into quadruple coverage?

    The Packers two years ago had a worse defense than the Bucs. It sure didn’t seem to bother Aaron Rodgers. He racked up 15 wins that year and threw for over 4,600 yards. Oh yeah, with that rotten defense, Rodgers TD/INT ratio was 45/6.

    Could be wrong, but was it Adam Hayward who threw four picks against the worst overall defense in the league, the Saints?

    The defense has zilch to do with the team’s quarterback reading opposing defenses, reading routes and throwing accurately.

  70. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    I guess I also forgot about Freeman blowing the lead in four games that kept us from the playoffs too. I also missed the four seasons that Freeman sat behind one of the better quarterbacks to ever play this game.

    You tend to “[throw] balls into quadruple coverage” when you know that every single time the opposing offense touches it there is almost a guaranteed score.

    Happen to have any excuses for Drew Brees and the 7-9 Saints? Sure seems like the 32nd ranked defense had an effect on them. Was that Brees’ fault? Oh, is it okay to say that a bad defense affected a proven quarterback but not Freeman? Freeman should have done better with a worse pass defense perhaps? If Brees can’t overcome a terrible defense then how in the world could you expect a “lesser” quarterback to do better?

    Freeman has his issues but he did ENOUGH to have us in the playoffs in 2012. The infamous, second worst pass defense of all time kept it from happening. He is inaccurate at times. He forces balls at times. But he is also REALLY good at times. More often than he is bad and THAT is all that matters.

  71. Mcbuc Says:

    Interesting Steve. Freeman regressed but he had his best year as a pro. His win loss regressed in 2011, but it improved in 2912. Not to the win loss numbers from 2010, but all of his other stats improved. Do you think the team as one unit regressed as well in 2011 and improved in 2012? Maybe not better than the win loss stat of 2010, but the offense and freeman improved dearly stat wise, and the defense did not. I really find it funny you talk about beating the defensive dead horse yet you beat the dead freeman horse at the same rate.

  72. scubog Says:

    I know Couch thinks I wait until everyone posts comments before weighing in; but fact is, I only visit this site when I wake up each morning around 5:00am. Gooooooood Morning everyone! When I saw the title of the article I already knew what would be said and by whom so I breezed right past “yesterday’s news”. There’s certainly nothing I can say that will sway those Hell bent on blaming Freeman for all of the team’s woes. At least Ron Jaworsky (Scubog’s name is also Ron and some say I resemble him) has some credibility. Maybe someone already mentioned what occurred right about the time Freeman’s play declined due to pressure. As I recall we already had journeyman Meredeth stepping in at RG for Joseph when Nicks went down. This caused a ripple effect when Zuttah had to move to LG and Larsen came off the bench to play C. Couple that with the benching of Trueblood for a very raw Dotson and you have what anyone would call a “Makeshift” offensive line. Then Meredeth got hurt and played on. I know, I know, some will say this is an “excuse” for # 5. I know, to be considered elite, Josh would have to overcome the shortcomings of the rest of the 53 man roster. But isn’t it at least plausible to acknowledge that this had a negative impact?

  73. SteveK Says:

    McBuc,

    Fair enougn, I just expect more from my Quarter Back.

    I am not sold on Freeman.

  74. Couch Fan Says:

    @ Scubog

    FIrst, I dont think any such thing. I have no clue what your RL is like so I dont base any judgements about when you post Lol.

    Now having said that, the only people who put ALL the blame on any one specific individual or group is the freeman lovers. The “haters” are only reacting to the constant blaming of the defense as if Freeman is so great.

    And people like WCBF pretend they think Freeman has issues but yet every single article that notes these issues, the Freeman lovers are quick to write it all off on the defense… Its actually laughable.

  75. chris Says:

    Jaws is right, but I just went back watched some of the things that made Josh Freeman good back in 2010:

    1. He had that SWAG back there in the pocket that nothing would go wrong. What happened to that? 2012 there were several games he had that look of “fear” and lack of confidence and rushing things and was too hesitant. Gotta get that back Josh.

    2. He looked off defenders. Several of the big plays that were made possible and completed, you see Josh look left then turn back to the right and fire a dagger for a big gain. Where has that been the past few years?

    3. He threw on anticipation and his footwork was very well. He threw balls before WRs broke and didn’t hesitate to let it rip. Him and his WRs were on the same page. What happened?

    4. His pocket presence was good. He was able to not only escape pressure, but he sensed it very well. 2012, he was the 2nd worst rated QB in the face of pressure.

    Josh needs to regain that confidence that made him great in 2010. I don’t know if it’s a personal issue outside of football, but something is up from watching both film of 2010 and 2012.

  76. Jimmy Says:

    West Coast:

    Hope you were drunk off your @ss last night when you tried to compare Josh Freeman to Drew Brees. smh

  77. Buc1987 Says:

    @Jimmy

    West Coast:

    Hope you were drunk off your @ss last night when you tried to compare Josh Freeman to Drew Brees. smh

    I think he was comparing the 7-9 record last season.

  78. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Not at all Jimmy.

    I asked a simple question. I will ask an even simpler question. Who won seven games for the Saints? Who lost nine games for the Saints? Now apply these same questions to the Bucs. Tell me what you come up with.

  79. Bucfan Says:

    West coast,

    Saints also played a first place schedule. They hammered the bucs. If Tampa played the schedule New Orleans did I don’t know if josh leads us to 7-9.

    Josh simply put needs to step it up against superior competition. Plain and simple. Example has it. 6-4 and the big game stretch to win 4 of those, he plays his worst football.

    I agree with Chris. In 2010 Josh seemed to be confident and very comfortable back there. Now it seems the complete opposite. That’s one to figure out

  80. Buc1987 Says:

    Can we reach over a 100 comments? All these comments can be easily summed up in that one word. Yes once again. Enigma.

  81. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    The only difference between the Buc schedule and Saints schedule last year was 2 games.

    Bucs vs Vikings @ Vikings WON
    Bucs vs Rams LOSS

    Saints vs Packers @ Packers LOSS
    Saints vs 49ers LOSS

    Other than those 2, their schedules were exactly the same. To say they played a first place schedule is utter B.S.

  82. PRBucFan Says:

    We all know that much more went into the 7-9 season the Saints had that effected their win-loss and Brees’ QB play was not the problem.

    He was actually one of the few “constants” on that team.

    The same cannot be said about Freeman’s play last season.

    YES THE DEFENSE PLAYED HORRIBLE
    For both the Bucs and the Saints except ours was actually better when you add in the rush D…

    By some of your logic Brees shouldn’t have even had those kind of stats solely because their defense was that bad..

    Yes I understand a better defense helps but to be fair it’s just to an extent. It should not affect what the QB can control and that is his side of the ball. Ala Brees and that was WITH all the other factors that we all know really was the factor to their disappointing season.

    But… I hear ya

  83. stevek Says:

    WCBF,

    Drew Brees is a “Franchise QB”, with a Super Bowl ring and he broke Dan Marino’s records.

    Josh Freeman is an “Enigma” in with 56 career starts, average of 6 wins per year, and he had the most prolific season for any Buc QB (Andy Dalton like).

  84. Bucfan Says:

    Comparing Brees and freeman is a joke. Freeman, for how bad the pass defense was, kept giving the ball back. Too many 3 and outs.

    Josh needs to revert to 2010 and trust his instincts. Don’t get rattled. He’s shown the poise, confidence, and swagger before. Just let it rip. he seems to indecisive and hesitant now a days. It’s liked He’s regressed mentally the last 2 years.

  85. Buc1987 Says:

    @Bucfan…Josh needs to revert to 2010 and trust his instincts. Don’t get rattled. He’s shown the poise, confidence, and swagger before. Just let it rip. he seems to indecisive and hesitant now a days. It’s liked He’s regressed mentally the last 2 years.

    Yes you are correct sir. Finally someone nails it. Your right Josh has regressed mentally over the last 2 years. We all can see it. In 2010 it looked like he was ready to take the NFL by storm. Now it seems he HAS lost the swagger he once had. It’s almost Ryan Leaf-like. Like he doesn’t care anymore. I trust in Schiano to iron all that out for us Buc fans. Just because I agree with your statements though does not mean I’ve given up on Josh. If the winning starts happening again people will love him again. It’s that simple.

  86. Bucfan Says:

    Bucfan1987,

    I’m a fan of josh as well. Seems like a stand up guy. However I’m not gonna be one of the several homer buc fans who sugar coat things. Jaws nailed it on the analysis. Know one has a clue what happened to josh after 2010. Hopefully that version comes back in 2013.

  87. Buc1987 Says:

    Another thing I hate to keep adding to these comments but. Someone suggested a while back that there is a rumor that Freeman likes to go clubbing and parties a lot. Even during the season. My answer to that was maybe that’s part of his problem now. If he were to find a girl, get married and settle down things might change. He’s be home and in bed by 10 PM every night. I don’t know. Damn you Jaworski for starting all this crap.

  88. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    Even Superman Brees couldn’t win more than 7 games last year with a crappy defense. Matter a fact Brees had a game last year where he threw 5 ints. Guess what? They lost.

  89. stevek Says:

    ^^^ See the 2009 NFL Playoffs Buc’nJunkie.

    Has Freeman had a playoff appearance?

    Has Freeman had a 10 game losing streak and a 5 gamer on his two most recent campaigns?

    The losing stops here.

  90. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Those are valid points stevek. Now answer my question. Who won seven and lost nine for the Saints and for the Bucs? How many of those seven wins came from the defense? The offense? No one is comparing them as quarterbacks. I am comparing teams.

  91. stevek Says:

    ^^^ Did Brees beat Freeman twice last year?

    Was the Saint’s D really bad, before playing Freeman. YES!

  92. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    That’s not what I asked.

  93. Buc1987 Says:

    Okay here’s another possible reason for Freeman’s woes. Some may see it as an excuse. The very secondary that we all complain about was the same one Freeman practiced against. Could that have effected his game? I know one thing Revis, Goldson, Banks and Wright will be lining up against him in practice this summer. That should help a lot.

  94. Buc1987 Says:

    @WestCoast I’ll answer the question like this. YES the Bucs O played well enough to get them into the post season last year. The defense did not.

  95. stevek Says:

    Answer me this West Coast:

    Does a regressing QB, regressing for the 3rd year in a row, get a contract extension?

  96. PRBucFan Says:

    ^^^^ Do you read the comments much or for that matter actually keep up with football???

    Again, MUCH MORE went into the Saints disappointing season than the defense.
    Brees was one of the very few “constants” that year for last year and one 5 interception doesn’t change that.

  97. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    You still haven’t answered my question stevek. But I will go ahead and answer yours. Lets take a look here:

    “Does a regressing QB, regressing for the 3rd year in a row, get a contract extension?”

    To be perfectly honest, to say Freeman has regressed three years in a row is inaccurate at best. As in, it is a false statement. Lets take a look at the numbers:

    2010: 3451 Yards, 26 TDs, 6 INTs, 10-6 season
    2011: 3592 yards, 16 TDs, 22 INTs, 4-12 season
    2012: 4065 yards, 27 TDs, 17 INTs, 7-9 season

    Now tell me, where is this “three years of regression” you speak of?

    Was it in the win column? Well no because the win total went up in 2010, down in 2011, then PROgressed in 2012.

    Was it yards he threw? No, he has thrown for more yards every year.

    Was it TDs? Nope, that also PROgressed in 2012.

    Interceptions . . . ? Do I need to continue here?

    It is your turn stevek.

  98. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    @Buc1987

    “YES the Bucs O played well enough to get them into the post season last year. The defense did not.”

    This is the only point I am trying to make here. Not that Freeman is the best quarterback to walk the face of the Earth. Just that the offense was GOOD ENOUGH and the defense was NOT. In the process though, the haters ignore facts and label me jock rider.

    Freeman has a long way to go before he is ever mentioned with elite QBs respectfully. My point is that right now, he is sufficient with an average team around him, that is all.

    If Freemans EXACT SAME OUTPUT was matched by the great Andy Dalton and they are in the playoffs, then what is the difference? Why is Andy Dalton praised as a “playoff QB” and Freeman labeled an “enigma” with nearly identical stats? I can tell you why, it is the defense of the respective teams. Not too hard for your QB to shine when he knows he has a top ten defense to rely on. Not exactly the same when you know your defense is attempting to set a world record of futility.

  99. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    @PRBucFan

    “MUCH MORE went into the Saints disappointing season than the defense.”

    What specifically? Could it have been the coaching change? I guess we can’t say that the Bucs went through the same thing, right? Tell me PRBucFan, what struggles did the Saints face that were so much worse than the Bucs? They had identical schedules sans two games. Please, enlighten me.

  100. SteveK Says:

    WCBF,

    “Regressed 3 years” implied another blow up this year. 2010 was all
    I can ask for, and sadly expect from #5.

    The regression is through not developing, or getting any better. The regression is the consistent inconsistency presented to us since 2010.

    Do you extend Freeman if he has another 4 game brain fart this year (3rd year in a row)?

  101. SteveK Says:

    WCBF,

    QUincy Black won more games against the Saints than Josh Freeman. Put that in your California pipe and smoke it.

  102. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Still ignoring my question I see. I have answered yours. You decided to ignore the facts presented but that is your prerogative.

    Please answer my question.

  103. PRBucFan Says:

    I’m not going to answer a question that any person with eyes and ears saw and heard regarding all the drama that occurred last season not only with players but with coaching personel. Unlike you I don’t get a kick out of debating just to debate even when I’m incorrect.

    Your being difficult just to be difficult jajaja.

    Not worth the effort honestly.

    But, I hear ya ;)

  104. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    I don’t debate when I am wrong. The Saints and Bucs were in almost identical situations last year. New coaching staff and a terrible defense and they happen to have the exact same win/loss record with nearly identical schedules. I am not being difficult, I am showing how a bad defense can, does, and will impact not just the QB but the offense as a whole. Including the play calling on offense.

  105. SteveK Says:

    ^ The Bucs have a coaching staff in place. They did last year. You know, Coach Schiano, the guy who turned our drafts around.

    Booya!

    YOur question: Did Bucs and Saints go 7-9?

    Yes, and we got last in the division, based on draft status. Which does us better anywho, because Carolina didn’t get to draft Sheldon Richardson instead.

  106. SteveK Says:

    West Coast,

    What is your question? I would like to do you a solid and answer it.

  107. PRBucFan Says:

    ^^^ Obviosly being incorrect doesn’t settle well.

    Just keeps going and going and going

    Anywho lol on to the next thread.

  108. PRBucFan Says:

    Excuse me,

    Obviously* ok now I’m off lol.

  109. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    @Stevek

    “Who won seven and lost nine games for the Saints and for the Bucs? How many of those seven wins came from the defense? The offense?”

    @PRBucFan

    Please, tell me which of my comments have been proven incorrect.

  110. SteveK Says:

    Brees won only 7 games last year, WCBF. Freeman won 7 as well.

    With that said, Brees beat Freeman twice, thus proving superiority.

    Brees is a top 5 QB in this league. He is the best QB in the division.

    Cam Newton won as many games as Josh Freeman last year too…

  111. Buc1987 Says:

    I know WCBF I’m with ya when ya say :
    This is the only point I am trying to make here. Not that Freeman is the best quarterback to walk the face of the Earth. Just that the offense was GOOD ENOUGH and the defense was NOT. In the process though, the haters ignore facts and label me jock rider.

    I’m on your side man. Not to bash any of my fellow Buc fans and not naming any names, I don’t need enemies on this site. BUT when I used to comment on NFL.com I ran into many dumb Buc fans. It always amazed me how many they’re were. Got into a tussle with some dude on there once about why the Bucs were not spending money on the team. That was prior to signing Nicks, Jackson and Wright. Tried to explain they had a lot of money tied up in Gruden’s contract and that was the reason they did not spend any money. I told em wait until this free agency if they pick up no one to improve the team then your right. If they sign players then I’m right. Even after they signed those 3 he still said I was wrong. It’s like you can’t win sometimes. Hmmm I wonder what thinks about it now that they signed Goldson and Revis. Prolly say I’m stiull wrong.

  112. mpmalloy Says:

    Lol @….109 Freeman obsessing comments.

  113. Buc1987 Says:

    Can we all agree on one of my previous comments? Will having Revis, Goldson, Barron, Wright and Banks opossing Josh in practice improve his play? I think it will. What say you?

  114. Buc1987 Says:

    and to reiterate I’m not saying anyone that oposses WestCoast is an idiot….it may look like that, but i’m not.

  115. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    @stevek

    You’ll be eating your own crap when the Saints have another crappy season because of their defense. As much as you seem to think Brees is the man, they couldn’t get him out of San Diego fast enough an eon ago. Wait, did I say eon? How long has Brees been playing? Twice as long as Freeman? What? Did it take Brees his entire rookie contract and a trade to finally get it? If it hadn’t been for the trade to N.O. Brees may be playing in Canada right now.

    How about giving Freeman the same luxury instead of trashing him at every turn. Because of stupid fans and the panty waist media we may go another decade before we find another QB with half the talent as Freeman. How about affording Freeman the same amount of time that Brees got then
    call for the guillotine if he doesn’t develop. Geez

  116. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    @Stevek

    No, Brees has NEVER beaten Freeman. They have never once faced each each other on the field as they are both quarterbacks. Brees beat the Bucs DEFENSE twice, not Freeman. Brees is clearly the better quarterback but when he was put in a VERY similar situation as Freeman in 2012, they both had the same outcome. Given that Freeman has less than half the experience of Brees, I would say that is a compliment.

    My point with this comparison is that a terrible defense affects the quarterback. I imagine it affects a younger quarterback even more, so why not just let Freeman play? Let him play in 2012 with out bashing him every day of the off season? You don’t have to sing his praises, just stop mindlessly bashing him because he was only able to accomplish as much as Drew Brees last season.

    @Buc1987

    I hear you. The problem is, when you try to explain the facts of the situation you tend to get labeled as just a blind homer. Apparently being negative around here is known as “realism”. I know that it is generally a hopeless fight but if you don’t say anything than you agree with the negative people. So here I am, a hundred comments down on a day old article trying to explain myself. I am not going anywhere.

  117. Buc1987 Says:

    ^^^^^ torched

  118. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    Sorry I said traded. Retract. He was released by San diego.

  119. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Let him play in 2013* not 2012, lol.

  120. Bobby Says:

    Of course Jaws is right about Freeman being an enigma. Freeman is inconsistent. He can be brilliant and then just not hardly show up. We get that. He needs to get a lot better in order for the offense to perform at a truly championship level. No one is even arguing that. What I AM arguing is that even with his inconsistencies we still had a top 10 offense and should have been in the playoffs but for our DEAD LAST pass defense. If you can’t see that I would argue that you just have a bone to pick with Freeman.

    Most of you just can’t seem to grasp that this is a team sport. You act as though it’s all the QB’s job to win or lose games. That is just not the case.
    There are going to be days when the QB is off and there are going to be days when the defense is off. When the QB is off the defense has to pick up the slack or the running game has to get going. When the defense is off the offense has to find a way to put more points on the board, but when the offense DOES put more points on the board and gives the defense the lead in the closing minutes and time and time again the defense blows the lead…to keep blaming Freeman is just plain idiocy. I don’t care how bad he looked doing it…he did what he was supposed to do…get the lead in the final minutes of the game. Why is that so hard for some of you to grasp?? Noe on is saying Freeman is a great QB yet. He makes me want to throw bricks at my TV a LOT. But not nearly as often as the pass defense made me want to just stop watching the games altogether. They were nearly unbearable to watch.

  121. Buc1987 Says:

    I swear somewhere Joe is laughing at us and loving all this. You are a sick man Joe. Thanks for keeping us entertained Joe while we wait for the season. Maybe on Monday we’ll get another article about Freeman and we can start all over again. LOL

  122. Buc1987 Says:

    Yah what Bobby says sheesh you guys are Buc fans. Don’t you know ANYTHING about defense and how important it is? I will pack Freeman’s bags for him by mid season if I see more of the same.

  123. chris Says:

    I think a lot of these homer buc fans on here need to refrain: Jaws is one the of more respectable analysts out there. And he hit Freeman spot on. What he missed on him, was his lack of confidence. HE comes in some games with his eyes as big as grape fruits. It;s like he’s playing scared in big games.

    Like Buc fan said, earlier, 2010, it looked like nothing was going to stop him. He came out ready to take the league by storm. He knew, when the Bucs needed him, he was going to deliver. And he did. What happened to that Josh? How does that swagger just diminish after one year?

    Will the Real Josh Freeman please stand up? We’ll find out in 2013.

  124. Couch Fan Says:

    I hear you. The problem is, when you try to explain the facts of the situation you tend to get labeled as just a blind homer.

    ———————————————————-

    All you’ve explained is that the defense is horrible and no blame whatsoever can be put on Freeman. Phew… I’m glad we have you around to enlighten us, We never would of been able to figure out the defense was horrible.

  125. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    @Couch

    I’m afraid if you don’t get it by now, you never will. If Freeman fails this year, you will get your wish. Hope you like going another decade finding another QB.

  126. Buc1987 Says:

    No Couch Fan…the argument started when people were disagreeing with the fact that a horrible Bucs secondary effected Freeman’s play.

  127. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    “All you’ve explained is that the defense is horrible and no blame whatsoever can be put on Freeman.”

    Care to point out even a single instance of me saying Freeman has “no blame whatsoever”? Don’t bother looking because that has literally never happened. Bobby explained it perfectly. Freeman still has work to do but last year the defense held this team back, not Freeman.

    Buc’n Junkie and Buc1987 have it too. My issue has been, and continues to be, with people that think Freeman should have overcome the second worst pass defense of all time to carry us to the playoffs when not even Brees could accomplish that in 2012. If the people that want Freeman gone get their wish then we will soon find out what it is like to be without a real QB.

  128. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    I would also like to point out, again, that I agreed with Jaws analysis.

  129. SteveK Says:

    Buc1987,

    How does our bad pass defense affect Josh Freeman’s ability to: run a play, sustain a drive, not turn the ball over, underthrow, overthrow, misscommunicate with his receiver, perform consistently, or audible in crunch time?

    The defense didn’t HELP Freeman, but it should not have an effect on Freeman’s ability to execute the offense.

    The 21st best QB option in the league just isn’t worth 10 million per year.

  130. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    @SteveK

    First year in a whole new system. At least give him the luxury of playing in the same system 2 years in a row and gelling with his receivers. Which by the way since you’re so bull headed, even Joe mentioned this a couple days ago, that a lot of the bad communication was on the receivers. Even Mike Williams and Vincent Jackson said that.

    Bad throws? Name me one QB that hasn’t made bad throws and I’ll call him the messiah. Why the hate? Give the guy at least this year to show all you negative so-called realist that he has what it takes. Or we will be searching for another QB for a long time.

  131. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    If you honestly believe that what the defense does has NO EFFECT on the offense then there is no helping you stevek. It absolutely affects everything the offense does, including the QB.

    One person ranks him 21st, IN JULY, and you take it as if we don’t even need to play the season. We already know how good Freeman is from this list so why even bother seeing how the season turns out, right? Even the most respected analysts are wrong A LOT.

  132. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    My bet is once all these so-called football gurus run Josh out of town on a rail he’ll end up on the Patriots roster behind Brady. When Brady retires Freeman will be their QB for a long time while we are still looking for that perfect infallible QB.

  133. mpmalloy Says:

    Buc1987 Says:
    “I swear somewhere Joe is laughing at us and loving all this.”

    Ya think?

  134. Bobby Says:

    @SteveK….Hellllooooooooo….TOP 10 OFFENSE. We put up plenty of points in SPITE of Freeman’s erratic play. Do you not grasp that?

  135. Buc1987 Says:

    SteveK…I don’t really need to answer that do I? After what is it now 124 comments or is it 224 comments on this thread? Just scroll up and read WestCoast explanation, Bobby’s explanation. Hell WestCoast has been breaking it down for 2 days now on this thread. I’m not getting baited back into this again. Freeman is a damn enigma yes. I too want to throw my remote threw the TV set when he makes mistakes. That damn secondary pissed me off 10 times more than Freeman did. Partially if you want blame Talib then. After Talib we got Biggers. Which btw I don’t even know why he’s still on the roster. Okay here we go again, you baited me. When Freeman has to counter for the bad play of the Bucs secondary getting torched left and right it not only effects Freeman’s play but the offensive coordinators playcalling. Thus causing the offense to do things that might not be in the game plan. I don’t know any other way to explain it. We’ve tried countless ways to break it down for you people. Maybe you guys might get it if you were actually standing on the Bucs sideline and listening in. That’s what it might take. Sorry to be so blunt or act like an ass, but my head is going to explode soon.

  136. Buc1987 Says:

    All of this does NOT make me a homer. Damn it I’ve said many times. I am an unbiased Buc fan. Hell I have not been a fan since 76, but if you slice my finger I would bleed orange. I did suffer through a good deal of the bad times. I do have a good idea of what sucky is. I’ve seen it. It comes in creamsicle, red and white.`It looks like Vinny Testeverde, Trent Dilfer, Craig Erickson, Rob Johnson, Chris Chandler and Shaun King. I do NOT put Freeman anywhere NEAR that list. Saying I love the love Bucs would be an understatement. I only want what is best for MY Bucs (as I used to refer to them as). Did Freeman deserve an extension last season? Of course not. Did he get one? Nope. Right now he is by FAR the best option. If we go to the playoffs this season, there is no guarantee that he will still be re-signed. It’s not up to us anyways. If the big guys upstairs decide they have enough talent around and can do it without Freeman, then he’s gone. Schiano and Dominik are on the same page as me. They only want what’s best for the Bucs. Right now like WestCoast says let him play 2013 then, Dominik , Schiano and everyone on this board will evaluate him. Hate to keep beating a dead horse, but it does pass the time away until August 8th.

  137. PRBucFan Says:

    Brees’ play never ever wavered because of his defense.

    HE REMAINED ONE OF THE ONLY CONSTANTS ON THAT TEAM LAST SEASON and had a great season from a stance of what he can do and of his position in spite of his D.

    The same CANNOT be said about Freeman, he definitely did NOT provide the same consistency and could have been better.

    You act as if the Saints defense somehow effected what Brees’ production was and it did NOT in fact do that. He still played lights out.

    Your talking W/L and than pointing to Freeman and trying to compare Brees and Free like somehow Free played anywhere near as well as Brees. AND HE DIDNT

    If Free played as well as Brees than you can compare their W/L and act as if any factor you apply to them effects the other mutually BUT THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT TALENTS. One is ELITE and the other well.. TBD..

    I am honestly hoping Free does develop into an exceptional QB in this league but i’m not going to get worked up if he doesn’t. I trust the Bucs and support whatever directions they choose to go and whatever calls they choose to make.

    Just think it’s ludicrous for anybody no matter what reasoning they provide to place the name of a TBD with the name of ANY “Proven Elite Franchise QB”
    ( I wont include with rings because than all the names of the “exceptions” begin to flow out). But hey that’s my opinion and yall are entitled to yours. :)

    It’s been fun, time for sleep lol. The next thread didnt really come soon enough so I came back to this one lol.

    GNight

  138. Couch Fan Says:

    Care to point out even a single instance of me saying Freeman has “no blame whatsoever”? Don’t bother looking because that has literally never happened. Bobby explained it perfectly. Freeman still has work to do but last year the defense held this team back, not Freeman.

    ————————————————————————-

    The proof isnt in your words, the proof is the fact that EVERY single article that comes out, pointing our Freeman’s flaws, you and the rest of the blind turn this into a argument about the defense and who is and who isnt responsible for the season melt down.

    You repeat yourself over and over again as if we dont already know the defense was horrid.

    But despite that horrid defense, Freeman still had chances to pull the game out and didnt capitalize. his play is dreadfully eratic that DOES cost us games at times, a lot of times… BUT NOT AS MUCH AS THE DEFENSE OBVIOUSLY (figures I’d say that before you try to throw it in there).

    Freeman has flaws, which is the whole point of this article and it would be nice to stay on topic once in awhile.

  139. SteveK Says:

    The Buc’s brass isn’t into extending erratic performers.

  140. lightningbuc Says:

    Sorry SteveK, but you’re incorrect. The alleged “rock star” does extend erratic performers i.e. Michael Clayton.

  141. Bobby Says:

    When it comes to Couch Fan I don’t think I’ve ever read more ignorant posts, even when Thomas 2.2 was on here. No matter how many facts you present, no matter how many times you agree that Freeman is erratic and needs major improvement, when you point out the flaws of the defense he insists that you are covering for Freeman. It’s really mind boggling how stubbornly he clings to Freeman being the fault of the 4 losses we suffered at the hands of Philly, Atlanta, Washington, and the Giants in spite of the fact that we had the lead in the closing minutes. It’s like the argument is “Well, the lead just wasn’t big enough so it’s Freeman’s fault.” or “Yes, we had the lead but Freeman played horribly the entire game.” Ignore the fact we had the lead in every instance….that seems to mean nothing to people like Couch. I think he’s rather that Freeman was 18-21 with 4 TD’s and we lose the game 35-31. Then he’d be all over the defense blaming them for the loss. In his mind the stats just don’t line up with us having a lead. If we have a lead and Freeman is 12-25 with 2 TD’s and 1 interception and Martin has a rushing TD and we have the lead 21-17 with 1:45 left and the opposing team marches down the field and scores a TD…guess what…FREEMAN’S FAULT.

  142. Couch Fan Says:

    Bobby are you naturally this stupid or do you have to work hard for it?

    Another question I have is, do you know how to read? or is your head just so far up freeman’s ass that you can’t see legible print?

    You say “when you point out the flaws of the defense he insists that you are covering for Freeman”

    Really? so that is what I meant when I’ve said ” The defense was a majority of the problem” in almost every single post?

    Learn to read you idiot then think before you post and make yourself look like nothing more than Freeman’s boyfriend.

  143. Bobby Says:

    “Really? so that is what I meant when I’ve said ” The defense was a majority of the problem” in almost every single post?”

    Wow!! You should be a politician. Usually only they lie that easily.

  144. Bobby Says:

    Here’s a simple A or B answer Couch. Who’s fault is it that we lost the Philly game, the Giants game, the first Atlanta game and the Washington game?
    A. Offense B. Defense.

    I don’t really expect a straight answer from you but I just thought I’d ask so I can see you try to dodge the question with “There is no A or B it was both” or something like that.

  145. Dan A Says:

    I remember a streak of come from behind wins during the 10-6 season that showed a hell of a lot of poise against the pressure. I also remember a lot of blown leads by our defense last year that freeman had helped provide. When you see your defense give up 30 pts a game you start to try all sorts of throws you normally wouldn’t try. Most of the comments come form those who only watch ESPN and the stupidity is shown in their remarks.

  146. Buc1987 Says:

    and the battle rages on…

  147. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    “You act as if the Saints defense somehow effected what Brees’ production was and it did NOT in fact do that. He still played lights out.”

    Lights out huh? Tied for third most interceptions at 19 doesn’t sound like “lights out” football. Lets take a look at a few games that were, less than ideal for Brees:

    Week 2 @ CAR L 27-35: 325 yards 1 TDs 2 INTs
    Week 12 @ ATL L 13-23: 341 yards 0 TDs 5 INTs
    Week 13: @ NYG L 27-52: 354 yards 1 TDs 2 INTs

    Well, if the defense didn’t affect Brees than I guess he just had some bad games randomly.

    @Bobby

    You see Couch Fan never actually states his opinion very clearly. He says he doesn’t think Freeman can do it but is willing to watch the 2013 season to see if he can turn it around. He spends the rest of the time criticizes any and every person who says something positive about Freeman. He doesn’t offer any stats or research, just tells them they are wrong.

  148. Bucfan Says:

    Bobby,

    The Philly game, the defense played extremely well the first 3 qtrs. freeman couldn’t muster up anything and kept throwing near INTs leading to 3 and outs handing the ball back to the defense. I remember correctly if it wasn’t for a muffed punt inside their own 5 I don’t know if we even come close. And it was Doug Martin who was a monster that game on offense. Not josh. Also his has the chance to sustain a drive and not give the ball back o Philly. Couldn’t complete a pass. 3 and out.

    Washington? I can’t tell you how many times we had countless 3 and outs. Freeman was awful the first 3 qrts against one of te worst defenses in te nfl. If I also remember correctly it was his locking onto mike Williams late I dbl coverage when Vincent Jackson was wide open down the field. Missed opportunity for a td. Settled for a fg and 1 pt lead. Even the announcers couldn’t believe he didn’t see him.

    The defense gave up a lot in the giants game but josh led the charge with an int thrown in at their own 30 yard line into triple coverage followed by several 3 and outs.

    Watch all aspects of the game pal. Not just the end result. Just because we had te lead doesn’t mean it was bc of freeman. That first Atlanta game jos missed a lot of throws and didn’t see open Wrs. He left a lot of points on the field.

    There is a reason why in all these rankings Jackson and Martin are high on the lists and josh is no where to be found. Rob Ryan went as far as saying, before the cowboys game, that josh freeman doesn’t come off his first read. Told his players read his eyes and shift towards that side of te field because he doesn’t have the tendancy to look to the opposite side of the field. It showed. He completed 30% if his passes for 100 yds. And watching te film he threw balls into dbl coverage while Wrs were open on the opposite side.

    Needs to see the field better. If that doesn’t improve bucs need to upgrade next year. Glennon is a project and this could be his red shirt year. But I like AJ McArron a lot. Something about him screams Matt Ryan/Tom Brady. Able to read and go through progressions very quickly and make very accurate throws and good arm strength.

  149. Bucfan Says:

    West coast, overall stats and research don’t tell all. Any one who actually watches the games freeman was extremely horrible at some instances or he was good. That final 6 game stretch he was bad in 5 of those games and solid performance in the finale.

    16 of Josh’s 27 tds came in a 6 game stretc to only 3 INTs. The other 10 games? 11 tds. 14 INTs. BUT HE BROKE RECORDS YOU Say? He also was terrible at sustaining drives.

  150. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    ^^I don’t have access to the old games right now but I would be interested to see what BamBamBuc and chris have to say about this. They recently went through all the old games and did not mention this. Chris was a harsh Freeman critic before he actually watched the games too. Changed his opinion of Freeman after watching them.

  151. Bobby Says:

    @Bucfan…..thank you for making my point about fans who want a win the ‘pretty’ way. We were ahead at the end of the game.

    “Yeah, but Freeman played horribly”
    But…er…we had the LEAD..

    “You don’t understand, Freeman had so many 3 and outs it was ridiculous.”

    Er…excuse me, we had the LEAD with just minutes to go…you do know that means we were ahead don’t you??

    “Oh yeah, I know but you can’t blame the defense for blowing the lead…did you see the pick Josh threw in the second quarter when we were in the red zone??”

    OOOkkkkkkkkk. Moving right along…

  152. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    I also never said Freeman was tremendous in those games. I said that the defense gave up the lead in the closing minutes of the game. I also seem to remember a lot of those “3 and outs” you speak of consisting almost entirely of runs in an attempt to run out the clock. A play calling issue, not Freeman’s.

  153. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    @Couch

    In your profound wisdom, who, is available right now, that could do a better job than Freeman?

    Pretty simple question for a guy who seems to have all the answers.

  154. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    So I pulled the play by play for a few games:

    NYG game: Josh Freeman scores a game tying touchdown and leaves two minutes on the clock. The Giants promptly complete a 50 yard bomb and go on to score a touchdown to take the lead. They leave about 30 seconds on the clock. Freeman completes a 19 yard pass to Vincent Jackson then a 29 yarder to Williams that is reversed. Then with twelve seconds left, he is intercepted. This game did not end with a three and out. This game ended with Freeman trying to match the Giants 41 points.

    Three and outs in this game: 3

    Redskins game: On the Bucs final drive, Josh Freeman completed passes for two first downs. (As in, NOT a three and out.) The drive ended at with a 1:47 left after a pass completion to Tiquan Underwood fell short. Connor Barth kicks the go ahead field goal to make it TB 22 WAS 21. Redskins get the ball with 1:42 left. Bob Griffin promptly drives down the field for 76 yards to put the Redskins in field goal position with only 3 seconds left by the time the Bucs get it. Yes Josh maybe should have tried a little harder to get a touchdown on that first drive but why take the risk when you can take the lead with only 1:47 left?

    Three and outs in this game: 3

    First ATL game: Bucs get the ball with 7:55 left and the game at TB 23 ATL 24. The offense burned through over four minutes of game clock, converting two first downs in the process. Connor Barth misses the field goal at ATL’s 38 yard line. That drive ended with a four yard completion, a -1 yard run, and an incompletion to Underwood to make it fourth down. Doesn’t say if it was a drop or an overthrow, etc. Either way, another final drive that did NOT end in a three and out. ATL promtly burned through the remaining game clock and gave the Bucs the ball back with 8 seconds left.

    Three and outs in this game: 1

    Eagles Game: Bucs get the ball with 3:55 left in the game and a 21-16 lead. The Bucs promptly call five straight running plays, punt. Eagles get the ball back with 2:44 left. The mighty Nick Foles takes his time and drives down the field for the game winning touchdown.

    Three and outs in this game: 2, one of which consisted of zero Josh Freeman passes.

  155. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    The Eagles game I don’t put as much blame on the defense because of how much time was left. The offensive play calling is at least as much to blame in this loss. Five straight runs is not playing to win, it is playing not to lose.

  156. Bobby Says:

    ^^^^^agree^^^^ I think play calling was timid for a good portion of last years slump. When we opened things up we saw success. The Giants game is a good example of just taking big chunks of yardage. This year I think the offense will be more explosive.

  157. Buc1987 Says:

    WestCoast I was at that game and walked out fuming mad at the playcalling. I was hoping someone on the radio would’ve called out Schiano out on it, but it never happened. I think he was learning as he went along too. Hopefully he’s a coach that learns from his mistakes.

  158. Buc1987 Says:

    ^^^ummm the Eaglets game….

  159. Bucfan Says:

    West coast, tell me when those 3 and outs occurred in te giants/redskins game? How many INTs ? When were they thrown?

    You mention the incomplete pass to underwood in that final drive against Atlanta. Underwood was open. Free overshot him high. Terribly inaccurate throw.

    Philly game. Phillys defense was coming into that game 7 straight allowing 65% completion and a 130 or higher qb rating. Freeman completes 40% of his passes. Awful.

    Redskins game? We left 1:47 on the clock. But on 2nd down on that inal drive freeman forces an incomplete pass into dbl coverage to Williams while Jackson was open down the field and josh doesn’t see him.

    Freeman left a lot of plays on the field. Either not seeing open Wrs bc of tunnel vision or just erratic throws.

    The defense was terrible down the stetch. But notice in that 6 game hot streak. When freeman was on it masked our defensive flaws. Keeping them fresh.

    No doubt the defense was bad. But josh isn’t mr innocent or anything either.

  160. mpmalloy Says:

    Oh the humanity

  161. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    I guess Freeman is the only quarterback to ever not see an open receiver down the field. (You could probably count the number of times this happened throughout the season on one hand.) How do you know he wasn’t told by the OC to throw it to Mike on that play regardless of the coverage? I have seen that happen several times on NFL network where a coach, mic’d up, will say, “throw it to this guy or throw it away”. Mike Williams is a baller so he gave him a chance.

    There isn’t a QB that has ever played the game that played sixteen games of consistent, great football. The defense and running game needs to pick up the slack once in a while. Of course Freeman can improve but if the defense had even been mediocre then we are in the 2012-13 playoffs. All but two losses were within one score and I believe three or four of those were by three points or less. With the 29th overall defense and the second worst pass defense of all time we were still close in almost every game. That means the offense did good enough most of the time.

  162. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    “There isn’t a QB that has ever played the game that played sixteen games of consistent, great football.”

    I may have been a little over zealous there. If it has happened, it is extremely rare.

  163. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    I truly hope that Josh Freeman has a monster pro-bowl type year and then decides to leave Tampa Bay. I hope the Bucs tag him and he sits out for the year. At least I would. He needs to show all these haters that have piled on trashing him his middle finger. It seems even when it comes to ranking players in fantasy football all these supposed gurus have also climbed on the hate wagon. Hell, most are even saying that Vincent Jackson is not worthy of drafting until after the fourth round.

    Talk about no respect, it seems there is not one guru out there that can think for themselves without just piling on. Evan Silva from Rotoworld said VJax is no better than a fourth rounder because Freeman doesn’t inspire confidence. He’s GD copy cat. In fact they all are. Even our own fans are spewing the hate because these so called self important fantasy evaluators say so. Again, I hope Freeman proves every one of them wrong and then leaves.

  164. Buc1987 Says:

    I can remember not so long ago, people were calling for Eli’s head in NY. Same goes for Flacco…too. I can add a few more if ya like. Hmm Alex Smith in San Fran. Okay I’ll stop right there, you get the point.

  165. Buc1987 Says:

    Buc’n Junkie Says:
    Again, I hope Freeman proves every one of them wrong and then leaves.

    Oh dear Lord please don’t say that again. It hurts my eyes to read that statement and it’s hard to wrap my head around that scenario.

  166. BigMacAttack Says:

    Just as long as Josh doesn’t wear a Dolpins hat I’m alright.

  167. Buc1987 Says:

    Dang I guess I was wrong about Biggers still being on the roster. Must have missed that somewhere in print. Now I trust Schiano even more. Glad to see Raheem loves him still and the Skins picked him up. Goes to show just how smart Raheem really is. (sarcasm) I thought he knew all about DB’s. On what tape does it show Biggers has any potential at all?

  168. Dreambig Says:

    Please can we get to the season already. This whole thread is irrelevant. Freeman was good last year and Freeman sucked last year. Injuries and suspensions killed any chance of playoffs by mid season, and our secondary was horrible! So what??? This is a brand new year and assuming a bit of growth from last year, it should be a great year. Let’s quit busting the balls of our own team. I am psyched up and ready to go!

 
 

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