“It Seems To Be Mental With Him”

June 18th, 2013

NFL Network studied the Bucs last night during its daily series “32 in 32,” in which every NFL team is examined while the network kills time before NFL training camps open up late next month.

Analysts LaDainian Tomlinson and Darren Sharper and host Andrew Siciliano dove into the subject of Josh Freeman. Tomlinson and Sharper had very different conclusions as to whether this season is Freeman’s last in Tampa Bay.

Andrew Siciliano: Josh Freeman, some people think he might be a weakness. We do know this: He is in the last year of his contract. Is this his last year, LT, with the Bucs?

LaDainian Tomlinson: I say no. People need to realize and remember that Josh Freeman left early. He left after his junior year at [Kansas] State. He’s still a young player. So he has a lot of football to play. He will continue to throw. I know he has had his ups and downs but here is the thing: At the end of the day, can you find a better quarterback than Josh Freeman. That’s what we are looking at in our league. You only have about five quarterbacks that play at an elite level. The rest of the guys are up and down so be patient. Patience is a virtue with Josh Freeman. I think he will eventually become the guy that can become the leader.

Darren Sharper: I am going to go out on a limb and say he will not be back. This is his last year, partly because of that roller coaster he takes the Tampa Bay Buccaneers on. I played against Josh a couple of times and to me, it’s not physical, it seems to be mental with him because he is out there and will go through these streaks that he plays bad and he will not be able to get out of those bad streaks. That, combined with he is not tied to Coach [Greg] Schiano, I think they will try to go out and find Schiano’s guy.

Joe thinks both analysts make salient points. Just what quarterback is available via trade or free agency who will be better than Freeman? That’s why Joe’s pretty sure, barring a horrific 2011-like season, Freeman will return to the Bucs in 2014. It is just a matter of whether he will be franchised or not.

But Sharper has solid takes. As Joe has constantly written, Schiano has no lineage to Freeman; he inherited him. If the Bucs cannot turn Freeman around, you think Schiano will lobby Bucs rock star general manager Mark Dominik to re-sign Freeman and go down in flames with Freeman? Joe doubts it.

Now Sharper is not the first person to suggest Freeman’s issues are between his ears.

No less an authority than former Bucs signalcaller Shaun King, one of but three Bucs quarterbacks  to lead the Bucs to an NFC Championship game, claimed last season that Freeman, who King very much likes, needed a shrink.

Again, Joe is convinced there is no quarterback controversy. Freeman is your Bucs quarterback. How long that will be depends on Freeman himself.

No controversy at all.

137 Responses to ““It Seems To Be Mental With Him””

  1. dr.buc Says:

    then why do u keep writing these articles stirring up a controversy and then denying it? everyday there is a new article saying the same thing

  2. Joe Says:

    dr.

    then why do u keep writing these articles stirring up a controversy and then denying it? everyday there is a new article saying the same thing

    Joe is about topics. If former NFL players are saying this about Freeman, specifically a guy who played in a secondary opposite of Freeman a few times, Joe thinks it interesting information and readers can decide for themselves if it is caca or not.

    Joe is not aware of any other former defensive back who played against Freeman saying such things. This is news.

  3. BOb Says:

    Joe said poppycock!

  4. robert Says:

    forget the haters Joe. we all know jfro sucks. maybe if enough people say it they will………………..

  5. robert Says:

    START GLENNON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  6. FLBoyInDallas Says:

    There is no QB projected to be available in free agency, and no QB in the 2014 draft, that is an upgrade over Freeman (don’t even get me started with the idiotic dumbasses who think Manziel is a real prospect). That’s a fact. There’s no way whatsoever that the Bucs are going to cut such a talented and promising QB like Freeman when he’s right on the cusp of reaching maturity and elevating his game through being in the same system for multiple years in a row. No f-cking way.

  7. Joe Says:

    and no QB in the 2014 draft, that is an upgrade over Freeman (don’t even get me started with the idiotic dumbasses who think Manziel is a real prospect).

    Teddy Bridgewater?

  8. Joe Says:

    START GLENNON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Even Glennon has said he is nowhere near ready. Not an option.

  9. FLBoyInDallas Says:

    Joe,

    Yes, Bridgewater is the best prospect likely to come out next year but let’s see what he does this season with teams more focused on stopping him before anointing him. As Geno Smith, and many other QB prospects, can tell you it’s a whole different ballgame when there’s a big target painted on your back because of national exposure. Performances can, and do, frequently drop significantly from one year to the next for that very reason.

  10. Illuminati Says:

    @Joe

    The fact that LT and Sharper had different opinions on whether Freeman would return in 2014 means that yes, Joe, there is controversy. The fact that you post every other day or so about someone discussing whether Freeman will or should be back means that there is controversy. The fact that these posts usually generate dozens of comments on either side means there is controversy.

    I agree that there’s little chance Freeman isn’t the starter this year. It’s also likely that he is the starter beyond this year. But that likelihood alone doesn’t mean there isn’t controversy.

    Controversy is nothing more than public debate. The fact that you continue to fuel this debate on a semi-daily basis, and then make the inane claim that there’s “no controversy” indicates your tenuous grasp of the meaning of “controversy.”

  11. Kodaslc Says:

    Playing QB is 60% Mental and why I believe Free has struggled at times be it as it may, I think Freeman is a Stud!!!Mentally playing Qb is hard enough but to have added pressure that you have to play well and score 25+ points a game to have a chance would be hard on any QB outside of the Elite class of Brady,Peyton ,Brees , Rodgers( And when Rodgers Def was horrible they went 9-7 with a record breaking offense and didn’t make the playoffs until week 17 and then the def played a lot better and they won the Championship. So what I am getting at is Josh will have a lot less pressure this year, with an improved def that I think can be right up there in the top ten in both rush ad pass… we already have a top 10-15 Offenses in the NFL… All we need to do is Run, Run,Run behind the best O-Line in Football and play action pass which is Free strong suit. Like how Harbugh turned around A. Smith year one( and if you compare Freeman to A. Smith prior to the coaching change everyone would take J.Freeman!!!! Build Free Confidence back up take a page out of what Seattle did for Wilson at first make it easy for him .Use tht run game and take shots down the field!!! Use the run to set up the pass…

  12. Joe Says:

    @Illuminati — That’s quite a controversial take you had there.

  13. robert Says:

    luminati……talk show ALWAYS have opposing opinions.

  14. stevek Says:

    2013 will decide Freeman’s chances of remaining a Buccaneer.

    I agree with LT and Sharper’s takes on Freeman.

    He is young…

    His mental game lacks….

    What are we going to get?

    Josh Freeman, to this point in his career, is like a “box of chocolates”.

  15. T in Orlando Says:

    @ Illuminati

    “Controversy is nothing more than public debate. The fact that you continue to fuel this debate on a semi-daily basis, and then make the inane claim that there’s “no controversy” indicates your tenuous grasp of the meaning of “controversy.””

    Nice to bring Webster’s dictionary to the table.

    Now in the Football world, a QB Controversy revolves around a debate of who to start, be it for the next game or the duration of the season. However the idea of a QB controversy doesn’t typically extend beyond the current season.

    Joe’s right, there is currently no QB controversy in Tampa, Freeman is the starter, and will be the starter (barring injury) for the Bucs until they are out of playoff contention for 2013. After that, it will depend on how well he performed up to that point, and how well his replacement performed.

    Only the biggest Freeman detractors are saying start Glennon now (a very small group of people). Even the analysts that say Freeman won’t be back next year are not saying he shouldn’t be the starter this year.

    Who knows, if Freeman plays ok, not great, and the Bucs get to the playoffs, and Glennon never gets a chance to get on the field, then perhaps J5 is brought back on the Franchise Tag, and there’s a QB controversy next year over who should be the starter.

    If Freeman stinks it up, and the Bucs open up 1-5 or 0-6, perhaps there’s a controversy at that point. But right now, through at LEAST the first 4 games, there is no controversy, Freeman is the starter.

  16. stevek Says:

    This “controversy” is 100% on Josh, and is decided by the play of Josh Freeman.

    The 2013 season for Freeman may be the BIGGEST season for ANYONE in the NFL? Freeman has done good things, but not enough.

    2013 will be very very interesting, as the Bucs now have playoff expectations.

  17. Buc Fan #238 Says:

    ” I played against Josh a couple of times and to me, it’s not physical, it seems to be mental with him because he is out there and will go through these streaks that he plays bad and he will not be able to get out of those bad streaks. ” -Darren Sharper.

    How can ANYONE argue against that? Unless you have played against Freeman as a DB, there is no way to top that statement.

    It also reflects what I have noticed too.

  18. Biff Barker Says:

    Joe, here’s the rub, Freeman looks much better than he really is because of the players around him. I recall your anguish over the “weapons for Freeman” argument. (I felt the same way)
    It clearly is a confidence issue.. and when the going gets tough, Free is rarely going.
    Enter Glennon. Agree, nowhere near ready for the NFL. A year of clipboard duty should change that. McNulty too. Given the probability Freeman rear ends the pooch at some point this season, Schiano goes Chucky and wants him gone.
    He gets a one year extension at best IMO.

  19. Vern4499 Says:

    @Biff,

    Don’t most good QB’s have good talent around them? That’s how team sports work.

  20. Buc Fan #238 Says:

    Listen complainers… this is a Bucs blog that has 5-7 articles a day.

    What on earth are you expecting from this website???

    Joe has proven that JBF.com IS the Buccaneer news… manufactured or not.

    Seriously though… its a blog… think of it as Entertainment Tonight, but about the Bucs.

  21. Joe Says:

    Biff:

    It clearly is a confidence issue.

    Joe has always believed Freeman is an inaccurate quarterback. His history dating back to his sophomore year in college demonstrates that. He has every physical tool in the book. He’s a quarterback from central casting.

    It’s not really that much difference from a baseball pitcher who doesn’t have accuracy and tends to walk guys and run up pitch counts. Mechanics can only do so much.

    Now you likely remember how Bill Cowher told Joe this past winter that it’s doubtful anyone can make Freeman (or any inaccurate quarterback) an accurate passer. However, as Cowher noted, you can devise an offense that best suits an inaccurate quarterback.

    At one point, you could make an argument Freeman didn’t have the toys to play with. That is no longer the case. Freeman’s future with the Bucs is in Freeman’s lap. It’s really that simple.

  22. stevek Says:

    Everyone can thank Josh Freeman for this kind of news being posted on a continual basis.

    Joe brings in REAL Bucs news (thank goodness), what is not to like?

    Josh can squash the controversy with some stellar play, and he can build it up if he falters.

    I hope the Freeman led Bucs go to the 2013 playoffs, and if not, it might be worth exploring a new QB option.

  23. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    I said it before and I will say it again. Freeman only needs to match his 2012 production (with an upgraded defense) to get an extension. Having a defense that’s not chasing down almost century old records will do wonders for him.

  24. stevek Says:

    WCBF,

    Freeman can’t have a slump like he did last year, as it kills playoff aspirations.

    Freeman can put up the same numbers, but he needs to do so more consistently.

    2 games, 8 picks- that aint CONTRACT EXTENSION football.

  25. Buc Fan #238 Says:

    Besides… this isn’t New York’s market… the only “worry” anyone has in Tampa would be JBF.com and Shaun King.

    How hard is that to deal with?

    Ask Revis… he’ll laugh.

  26. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    @stevek

    I’m sorry but if Freeman is working with a top 20 defense last year (a reasonable expectation) then we are in the playoffs with Freeman’s EXACT SAME PRODUCTION. (Including the eight picks in two games.)

    I maintain that Freeman can put up the EXACT SAME PRODUCTION with an improved defense and he gets an extension.

  27. bucfanjeff Says:

    I liked LT and Sharper as players, but every time I watch them as analysts, I’m not impressed – at all.

  28. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    Clearly, Freeman’s future all depends on himself now. Dominik has put some serious talent around him this year, almost to the point where all he has to do is try not to play badly. He doesn’t have to really match or pass his career numbers of last year. He just needs to move the chains and limit mistakes and he’ll get that extension.

  29. Bobby Says:

    Of course it’s all mental. Hopefully having a full year in the same system will cause him to be less indecisive. I really think he’ll be more consistent this year. I’m not sure he’ll ever have the accuracy of a Drew Brees but he will be more consistent. Get him up over 60% completion and I’m a happy camper. He won’t have to think as much this year and that’s a good thing.

  30. Curmudgeon Says:

    Sometimes fans have unreasonably high expectations. Fans tend to be impatient because they see RG3 or Russell Wilson or Andrew Luck light it up right away… Well, Freeman isn’t one of those guys, but every QB has a different learning curve and a different set of skills. Freeman can still do big things in his career. I mean, he’s only 25 years old… He’s still got the upside and the will to be great. It’s reasonable to expect more improvement this year, but the constant bashing by some and suggesting he should be dumped ASAP is coming from impatient and unrealistic fans. Jeez, I’m sorry we don’t have Tom Brady or Peyton Manning… How many teams do? How many years did Aaron Rodgers sit the bench before he became one of the best QBs in the league? We all agree Freeman needs to improve – let’s give him a chance to do so.

  31. Fritz50 Says:

    Sorry, but this all seems a bit ‘manufactured’…a bunch of media types copy a concept & suddenly it’s gospel. After all , look at all these guys saying the same thing. Twenty gazillion sports personalities can’t be wrong!! Free has faults, like any player, but to hear the media , you’d think coach want’s him gone cause Free’s not ‘his guy’… gotta wonder if Dungy wanted Manning gone, cause he wasn’t Tony’s ‘guy’. It’s a rediculous notion…if , & I repeat IF Schiano wants Free gone, it’s cause of performance , not the idea that a player can’t be good if a coach doesn’t pick him, personally . We all have seen what happens when a Coach has a free rein over personnel .

  32. robert Says:

    all we can hope for is that jfro doesn’t make it through TC healthy and Glennon gets the snaps. that’s the only way we see post season

  33. Buc Fan #238 Says:

    “Fans tend to be impatient because they see RG3 or Russell Wilson”, or P. Manning or Eli Manning, or Drew Brees, or Matt Ryan or Aaron Rogers or Tom Brady or Phillip Rivers or Tony Romo or Colin Capernick or Andy Dalton “or Andrew Luck light it up…”

    Am I missing anyone better than Josh?

    So far I am up to 13.

    Anyway, I suppose fans are supposed to settle for mediocrity?

  34. BuccaneerBonzai Says:

    robert Says:
    “forget the haters Joe. we all know jfro sucks.”

    There’s irony.

    Illuminati Says:
    “@Joe
    The fact that LT and Sharper had different opinions on whether Freeman would return in 2014 means that yes, Joe, there is controversy. The fact that you post every other day or so about someone discussing whether Freeman will or should be back means that there is controversy.”

    Actually, only the media has been making it a controversy. The Bucs themselves have done nothing to warrant such a thing. You may point out that they drafted Glennon…but tell me, if you want a good backup, would you draft him in round seven or round three?

    Just because Freeman is in the last year of his contract and because the media keeps making things up or stating opinions doesn’t mean there is controversy.

  35. Joe Says:

    Fritz:

    Joe has yet to hear a guy who played corner against Freeman say what Darren Sharper said about Freeman (yes, Shaun King said the same thing, but King never played opposite the line of scrimmage from Freeman). That’s why this is news.

    And if Sharper said it, it’s not a stretch to believe other corners think the same or even in fact that’s the book on Freeman throughout the NFL.

    Afterall, who studies quarterbacks more than opposing corners?

  36. Justin Says:

    Freeman was 2-1 vs Sharper’s Saints.

  37. tampabaybucfan Says:

    “Shaun King, one of two Buc Quarterbacks that lost a NFC Championship Game when his defense gave up 11 or fewer points.”

  38. PRBucFan Says:

    “It Seems To Be Mental With Him”

    Again, it’s not like that’s some sort of revelation. That’s nothing new..

    Here’s to hoping, he takes the next step *Knocks on wood

  39. robert Says:

    238 nailed it on the head! ““Fans tend to be impatient because they see RG3 or Russell Wilson”, or P. Manning or Eli Manning, or Drew Brees, or Matt Ryan or Aaron Rogers or Tom Brady or Phillip Rivers or Tony Romo or Colin Capernick or Andy Dalton “or Andrew Luck light it up…”

    Am I missing anyone better than Josh?

    So far I am up to 13.

    Anyway, I suppose fans are supposed to settle for mediocrity?”

    you could add Cam Newton, Mike Vick, Jay Cutler, Ryan Tannehil and Andy Dalton to that list right off the top of my head!

    That’s 18……easily putting jfro in the bottom 1/2 of the QB list with 1/2 dozen guys with less experience playing with twice the leadership and passion with 1/2 the talent around them.

    START GLENNON!

  40. BuccaneerBonzai Says:

    Sharper played for a division rival…I’m sure he’s pretty objective on the topic. And King? Well, you know.

  41. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    robert Says:
    June 18th, 2013 at 4:42 pm

    all we can hope for is that jfro doesn’t make it through TC healthy and Glennon gets the snaps. that’s the only way we see post season

    Easily one of the most ignorant comments I have EVER read on this site. To wish injury on ANY Buccaneer makes you a jackass of epic proportions. If Glennon needs Freeman to get injured in order to get reps that is saying a lot about Glennon.

    It is one thing to doubt Freeman, it is quite another to wish injury on him and wish to hand over the team to a rookie third round pick.

    What are you, twelve? Nobody with a fully developed brain could be this stupid.

  42. Fritz50 Says:

    “Joe has yet to hear a guy who played corner against Freeman say what Darren Sharper said about Freeman”

    So you hear one corner say it, a corner whose team went 1 & 2 against Free’s Bucs, & it’s gospel? I think it’s probable Free’s problems ARE ‘mental’ ( isn’t all learning ‘mental’ ?), but your statements above are just a bit contradictory. Not intending to be an apologist for Free’s problems , just looking for a little logic.

  43. Buc Fan #238 Says:

    “I think it’s probable Free’s problems ARE ‘mental’ ( isn’t all learning ‘mental’ ?), but your statements above are just a bit contradictory. Not intending to be an apologist for Free’s problems , just looking for a little logic.”

    Fritz… his problems are not physical, so they MUST be mental.

    His earning curve has expired… it’s been 5 years already… bad season = low ball contract… if at all.

  44. Buc Fan #238 Says:

    Earning curve = Learning curve… however, in the above context, it fits the bill.

  45. Joe Says:

    Fritz:

    just looking for a little logic.

    Please explain why Joe shouldn’t believe Sharper, a guy who played against Freeman and studied Freeman?

    Who would you rather have Joe quote, one of the guys that runs the chain gang?

    Of course, Shaun King said the same thing last year. Nah, can’t believe Shaun King. He was a starting quarterback in the NFL. Nah, he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. My bartender who never played or coached above the high school level knows the NFL better.

    smh

  46. Illuminati Says:

    There’s no controversy about who should be starting in places like Green Bay, New Orleans, New England, and Denver.

    There’s not even much controversy surrounding Eli Manning, despite his glaring inconsistencies, many interceptions, career sub-60 percent completion percentage, and pedestrian career 82.7 passer rating. In fact, Eli never even cracked an 80 passer rating until his fifth season. But his frequent fourth-quarter heroics and a couple of championships have settled a lot of people’s nerves.

    The fact is, QB controversy is the status quo in this league, given the criticality of the position to a team’s success.

    Freeman is an enigma. He was inconsistent and streaky in college, and most scouts predicted he would be the same way in the pros. And he has been. Yet, he has demonstrated the capability to be everything you look for in a franchise QB, and he’s still quite young.

    Drafting Freeman in the first round was controversial. Not grooming him to start day one was controversial. There are rumors about his commitment, work ethic, and lifestyle which seem to me completely unfounded, yet persist for whatever reason.

    He’s so controversial, in fact, that the signing of a third-round pick like Mike Glennon already has people wondering if Glennon might indeed be a better long-term solution than Freeman.

    If Freeman has another sub-par season, there will be controversy about what to do with him. Sign him to an extension anyway, so we don’t risk watching another QB get away too soon only to watch him flourish elsewhere? Let him go altogether and, again, risk watching him flourish elsewhere? Sign him to a big extension even though we’re still not convinced he’s our guy? Slap the exclusive franchise tag on him and pay way too much for him for one more year? Slap him with the non-exclusive tag and risk losing him, but getting two first-round picks in return?

    He could be one of those guys, like many other NFL QBs, who just don’t fully click until they’re 25, 26, 27, or 28 years old, regardless of their NFL experience to that point. So, if we let him go at any point in the next few seasons, there will still be controversy.

    I’ve never been a complete jock-riding Freemanista, but I supported the pick and have always thought he deserved all due patience because of his age, character, and obvious upside.

    No matter what kind of lens you choose to view the situation through, there is controversy when discussing Josh Freeman and his long-term potential. The only way Freeman can avoid controversy is to firmly establish himself as an elite or at least near-elite QB in this league.

    As a true Bucs fan, I hope that by this time next year, there will indeed be no controversy.

  47. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    @Joe

    ” . . . it’s not physical, it seems to be mental with him . . .”

    This is hardly Sharper defining Freeman’s issues. They “seem” to be “mental issues” to a safety playing on an opposing team for only three games against Freeman. While it is certainly noteworthy, it shouldn’t be taken as the end all evaluation of Freeman or even “proof” that his issues are mental.

    Besides that, the last time Sharper lined up against Freeman was in 2010. Think Freeman may have changed a bit since then? I’m not saying Sharper isn’t credible, I’m just saying to look at how much time he actually spent game planning and playing against Freeman. (Three games, the first of which I believe was in his rookie year.)

  48. Buc Fan #238 Says:

    I honestly am all for re-signing Freeman… at market value.

    The problem is… the Bucs don’t like to pay average vets expensive contracts… so if Free is a top 20-25 guy and the agent is pushing for top 10-15 money… AND money for a young Vet will still command 12-15 per year… what do you do?

    That is a lot of money for a guy who has mental break downs and can’t get you to the playoffs.

    If Free ends up below 15th in the league and no playoffs in 2013, then what do you do? How much is your max price to re-sign him?

    //signed Mark D//

  49. Joe Says:

    West Coast:

    Look, got a problem with what Sharper said? Contact the NFL Network and have them suspend Sharper. As always if something interests Joe, he writes about. Don’t like it, don’t read it.

    Joe explained what he thinks of Freeman quite clearly in this thread. Joe finds it very compelling that a cornerback that has studied Freeman has this thought process.

    You want to know how Freeman can quiet all of his detractors? Playoffs baby. Real simple. Something Christian Ponder and Andy Dalton have already done.

    Oh, yeah. And Shaun King, too.

  50. Buc Fan #238 Says:

    This just in… Darren Sharper > WestCoastBucsFan

  51. PRBucFan Says:

    If it’s not mental it’s physical which IMO is much more problematic..

    Lets hope it is just mental…

  52. chris Says:

    Honestly, if Freeman tanks this year, I don;t see him “flourishing “elsewhere. Obviously, he has a hard time learning an offense. He had 3 years in Olsen’s offense, and he was absolutely terrible in Year 3.

    He’s in his 2nd year of Sullivan’s offense. How much do you think he knows? Sure coaches are praising him right now, but what else do you expect?

    Glennon isn’t exactly ready to start now. However, more reps and more time with his nose in the playbook, things could change by August. If Glennon starts at any point this year, keep the week 6 game in mind, right after the bye. If Freeman doesn’t get off to a good start, then you bet the Glennon chatter will only increase. Even pre-season if Josh struggles.

    I remember last year, after watching Josh in the pre-season, I said, it isnt good that he’s struggling against vanilla defenses. He had a good 6 game stretch, the other 10 games, which include the first 4 before the bye and the final 6, he was terrible, subpar and average.

    I think it’s fair to say Freeman is a weakness. So many want to point fingers at the secondary last year, however, Freeman was equally as bad. Giving the ball back after TO’s and countless 3 and outs. As bad as the defense was, Free did nothing to sustain drives, move the ball down the field, and give them a rest. Instead, he put them in terrible situations and kept putting them back on the field.

    I’m rooting for Josh. However, it’s clear, if he doesn’t get it done this year with a strong team around him, a new QB will be at the helm in Tampa in 2014. Whether it’s Glennon or a rookie. Guy Id keep an eye on: AJ McArron.

  53. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    No problems with Sharper’s take. No problems with you writing about it Joe. Just commenting about how much “in-game” knowledge Sharper could possibly have. His opinion certainly holds more weight than my own, just saying he only played against Freeman three times and those were all more than two seasons ago, early in Freeman’s career.

  54. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    So many want to point fingers at the secondary last year, however, Freeman was equally as bad.

    Freeman was equally as bad as the secondary?

    Freeman set franchise best records. The pass defense set franchise worst records. Freeman was far from perfect but to say he was just as bad as the pass defense is inaccurate at best.

    Also, BamBamBuc had a great post on three and outs the other day. Essentially saying play calling has a lot to do with third down conversions.

  55. Curmudgeon Says:

    Again I say, some QBs have different learning curves. So, I wasn’t looking for the list of QBs that are better than Freeman. I was making the point that some guys take longer to get it down, which doesn’t necessarily mean they can’t play, so let’s not compare him to the first year wonders or the established veterans. Let’s let him have a chance to show what he’s got this year. It’s frustrating to be talking about Freeman’s inconsistency after 4 years, but maybe this year, since it’s his second in the system, will be the year that he takes off. It would be downright stupid to not give him that chance after the investment they’ve made in him. But consistency is expected this year. Anything less than that and they will certainly be looking for a new starter next year.

  56. chris Says:

    WestCoastBucsFan Says:
    June 18th, 2013 at 6:26 pm
    “No problems with Sharper’s take. No problems with you writing about it Joe. Just commenting about how much “in-game” knowledge Sharper could possibly have. His opinion certainly holds more weight than my own, just saying he only played against Freeman three times and those were all more than two seasons ago, early in Freeman’s career.”

    Understand it was 2 seasons ago, however, I’m sure Sharper has watched film and has seen exactly the same thing. I played QB back in HS and at the college level in D2. Sure, I’m not NFL QB, but I know a thing or two about football.

    To me, Josh doesn’t have that calm, cool collective look when things start to go south, say down 10-0 or 14-0 in the 2nd qtr. He just starts firing away and forces balls. That is just one of his many flaws. Turn to the NFC championship game, Niners are down 17-0 in the 2nd qtr. Kaepernick did what a franchise QB does. stayed calm, didn’t force things and just got in rythym. Look how that turned out?

    The top 3 things that Josh lacked last year:
    1. Struggled dissecting coverages.
    - Why? Defenses, during the last 7 games of the year, started mixing in cover 2-3 and man. Disguising defenses (except Denver, who just brought the heat many times, but I’ll get into that later). You could see it on TV, that Josh just had that confused look after 1 1/2 QTRs into the ball game. Throwing balls right into the hands of defenders, going deep on the outside with a safetyy over the top of Vincent Jackson. Throwing into triple coverage?

    2. Seemed to get rattled very easily.
    - If things were not going right, Josh lost his composure. He never shook off his mistakes. Teams would mix in the blitz packages or mix in zone coverages to confuse Josh. Freeman doesn’t make very quick decisions and seems to be a few tenths of a second late in decision making, which makes him vulnerable to the blitz. This rattles him and from what I saw, it sticks with him throughout the ball game.

    3. Does not have good field vision to be a long term starter.
    - Too many times, from watching the coaches from from NFL.com, I noticed he just stares down targes over 95% of the time. This is a big no. He does not look defenders off one bit. The only time I seen him do it, was week 1 on the opening drive where he hit Mike Williams in the back of the endzone.
    He rarely will go through his progressions. It seems like he waits for his pre-snap read to get open to often and if it’s not there , well he’ll dump it off, and that’s if he’s not under pressure.

    He needs to do a better job with his eyes. They can draw WRs open. However, he just hasn’t done it throughout his days at K-State and in the NFL first 4 years.

    Year 5, along with his poor footwork mechanics, and release point (for a QB 6’6, I noticed few too many balls batted at the LOS. HOW? Russell Wilson had fewer balls batted down.), I’m having a hard time Josh turns the corner.

    Sure people point to Eli manning. However, Eli was an elite prospect coming out of college. Freeman was NOT. Freeman was questionable. Eli was not.

  57. SteveK Says:

    WCBF,

    Freeman’s issues are mental.

    Schiano had a seat and voice for our 2012 draft.

    Freeman needs to be good for us this year to make the playoffs, and to retain Freeman’ services.

  58. SteveK Says:

    WCBF,

    Darren Sharper has forgotten more about Josh Freeman than you know.

    The super bowl champion, Mr. Sharper, knows a good QB when he sees one, having played with Favre and Brees.

    His opinion on Freeman is viable, legit, and a respected source.

  59. chipbuc Says:

    Yeah i guess those 27 times Freeman beat the cornerbacks for tds, and 4000 plus yards he hung up on them, they might have thought he was a pretty good qb during those games!!!!!! He might not be great, but he is far from bad.

  60. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    You want to know how Freeman can quiet all of his detractors? Playoffs baby. Real simple. Something Christian Ponder and Andy Dalton have already done.

    Oh, yeah. And Shaun King, too.

    Kind of difficult to get into the playoffs in June but okay.

    Do you really give Ponder and Dalton credit for making the playoffs? Shaun King? Really? Are those quarterbacks playoff caliber on most teams? (As in, teams without a top ten defense, the best running back in the game, or one of the best defenses in NFL history to lean on? Things that Freeman hasn’t had.)

    Drew Brees watched the playoffs from his house while Dalton and Ponder played in them. Are Dalton and Ponder better QBs than Brees? (Of course not but that is what is implied when you mention these guys.) Playoffs are not a great indicator of any one specific players talent or lack thereof.

    Freeman has been surrounded by inconsistency his entire pro career but is criticized for not be consistent? Am I the only one that sees something wrong with this?

    Freeman has his issues but not making the playoffs has been a team issue, not Freeman’s alone. At this point it is unlikely that Freeman ever becomes “elite” but he has already become “good enough” as long as the team around him is good enough. (Joe Flacco? Kaepernick? How about the rosters around those quarterbacks? The defense of those teams? He isn’t as good as those QBs but the star studded teams around them certainly don’t hurt.)

    @chris

    My only gripe was with you saying Freeman was as bad as the pass defense. That is simply not true. (Even if all of your aforementioned issues really do exist.)

    @SteveK

    “Darren Sharper has forgotten more about Josh Freeman than you know.”

    Seems likely. Although I never claimed to know as much or more than Sharper but okay. And I will say it again, just for you, Freeman only needs to match his 2012 production to get an extension.

    Also,

    Schiano had a seat and voice for our 2012 draft.

    ^^^this has nothing to do with anything that has been said. That is trolling.

  61. SteveK Says:

    WCBF,

    Give Dalton credit. He took the Bengals to back to back playoff appearances, in his first two years.

    Give Dalton credit, after all his 2012 stats are right there with Josh’s. The only difference is the *way* the stats are accrued.

    Freeman is to inconsistent, and if he repeats the inconsistencies this year, albeit with 27 TDs and 4K yards, he gone.

  62. SteveK Says:

    chris,

    Good post, and that is the kind of stuff we need Josh to improve upon.

  63. PRBucFan Says:

    Nice post Chris, I hope he makes the next step this season and really gets past some of those things.

  64. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    Yards given up on defense:

    Bengals:
    2012 – 6th
    2011 – 7th

    Buccaneers:
    2012 – 29th
    2011 – 30th

    Passing yards accrued on offense:

    Bengals:
    2012 – 17th
    2011 – 20th

    Buccaneers:
    2012 – 10th
    2011 – 16th

    Yeah, the amazing Dalton and that offense leading that team to the playoffs, twice . . .

  65. PRBucFan Says:

    The Defense had its problems last season

    Freeman had had his problems last season

    NEITHER is excused, both have to show improvement this season or our team will be looking quite different next season. Simple

  66. SteveK Says:

    Playoffs speak louder than excuses, WCBF.

    2013 shall decide it all.

    If Freeman’s 2012 was “good enough”in your eyes, and can be replicated, than playoffs are 100% happening.

  67. Deion jones Says:

    That was not Darren Sharper with Tomilson!i don’t recognize him, but I know Sharper. Learn your people before you start making quotes! Your credibility is shot.

  68. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    @SteveK
    Winnning is all but guaranteed (barring injury) but playoffs are another story. 9-7 or 10-6 and no playoffs is incredibly likely in this conference. The Seahawks or Niners are all but guaranteed one of the wild card spots. That leaves just one wildcard spot and of course the division title as the only viable ways for the Bucs to make the post season. It’s not impossible but I can tell you that good teams will be watching the playoffs from their couch this year.

  69. Wisconsin Bucs fan Says:

    Give Josh a 2nd year with the same OC, with best OL in football, Martin on verge of monster season, the only bay NFL teams need worry about is TAMPA!

  70. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    @SteveK

    Winning is all but guaranteed (barring injury) but playoffs are another story. Nine or ten wins and no playoffs is incredibly likely in this conference. The Seahawks or Niners are all but guaranteed one of the wild card spots. That leaves just one wildcard spot and of course the division title as the only viable ways for the Bucs to make the post season. It’s not impossible but I can tell you that good teams will be watching the playoffs from their couch this year.

    Playoffs speak louder than excuses, WCBF.

    My point exactly. Why do you think Freeman is being criticized right now and Dalton is not despite posting similar numbers? Do you think Freeman would still be criticized this much if we made a wildcard last year? Problems are either exaggerated or over looked depending on whether a team achieves the post season or not.

  71. Joe Says:

    That was not Darren Sharper with Tomilson!i don’t recognize him, but I know Sharper. Learn your people before you start making quotes! Your credibility is shot.

    Oh, Deion, apparently you don’t know Darren Sharper.

    You are fortunate Joe didn’t ban you.

    Think before you type.

  72. WestCoastBucsFan Says:

    @SteveK

    Winning is all but guaranteed (barring injury) but playoffs are another story. Nine or ten wi`ns a`nd n`o play`offs is incr`edibly lik`ely in th`is confer`ence. The Sea`hawks or Nin`ers are all but guaran`teed on`e of the wild card spots. That leaves just one wildcard spot and of course the division title as the only viable ways for the Bucs to make the post season. It’s not impossible but I can tell you that good teams will be watching the playoffs from their couch this year.

    Playoffs speak louder than excuses, WCBF.

    My point exactly. Why do you think Freeman is being criticized right now and Dalton is not despite posting similar numbers? Do you think Freeman would still be criticized this much if we made a wildcard last year? Problems are either exaggerated or over looked depending on whether a team achieves the post season or not.

  73. Couch Fan Says:

    Why is it that the homers admit Freeman has flaws but yet every time the flaw is mentioned the homers blame it on something, anything else other than Josh?

    Sharper is right. If Freeman cant win here, he wont win anywhere. He will never have a better offense than he has right now. The only team he will go to is a lesser team and we all have already seen Freeman’s production on lesser teams.

    As a Buc Fan I hope he does big things this year. I’m just not betting any money on it.

  74. Joe Says:

    Chris:

    So many want to point fingers at the secondary last year, however, Freeman was equally as bad.

    Dude, Joe’s not on the Freeman bandwagon but that’s a bit much. The Bucs were 14 yards from worst secondary in NFL history. Though Joe is not a stat guy, Freeman did throw for over 4,000 yards. That’s not exactly putrid.

  75. Illuminati Says:

    @Joe

    71 comments so far.

    Yep, no controversy at all.

  76. Couch Fan Says:

    Fans like to talk about there team, especially when it comes to there QB. No controversy there. Just a debate whether or not someone is a good or bad QB. Freeman is the unquestioned starter… no controversy there either.

    Where would this supposed controversy be?

  77. Andrew 1 Says:

    Freeman already has a 10 win season under his belt so if he did it once he can do it again. it has almost become popular to bash Freeman at every turn among the media and fans, which is simple ridiculous. attention to all Freeman bashers – hes not going anywhere, so get used to it instead of whining about it whenever possible.

  78. Jimmy Says:

    Of course Freeman is a mental patient. If the defense just sniffs the Michael Jackson wannabe, he melts down worse than an ice cream cone in July.

    Guy has no sack!

  79. Illuminati Says:

    @Couch Fan

    You said: “No controversy there. Just a debate whether or not someone is a good or bad QB.”

    You just defined “controversy.” Look it up.

    Do you think Packers fans are debating who their starting QB should be? No. So, no controversy there.

    Here, always controversy.

  80. Joe Says:

    Illuminati:

    Yep, no controversy at all.

    There is no controversy. Anyone thinking Glennon is going to start over Freeman is stoned out of their mind.

    Apparently, you think otherwise.

  81. Free's A Boob Says:

    A shrink won’t help him. You can’t fix stupid.

  82. Joe Says:

    Do you think Packers fans are debating who their starting QB should be? No. So, no controversy there.

    That’s such a reach, Joe just hopes you are not driving home tonight.

  83. BuccaneerBonzai Says:

    Off topic, I was just thinking. I bet next year Butch Davis is named DC. Doesn’t his college contract issue resolve itself next year?

  84. Joe Says:

    Bonzai:

    Or he takes another college job. Good insight.

  85. Illuminati Says:

    @Joe

    I agree that Freeman should be the starter until such a time that it becomes apparent that he shouldn’t be. Hopefully, that day never comes.

    That’s just good reasoning.

    The word “controversy,” however, means that many people are still debating whether he should or should not be our starter now or in the future. As long as that debate exists, controversy exists.

    It’s a simple semantic dispute. You being a self-proclaimed “wordsmith”, I should think you could understand the difference.

  86. Andrew 1 Says:

    I truly believe our patience with Freeman is going to pay off, big time.

  87. Capt. Tim Says:

    If you go to all the other teams web pages- 90% of them are questioning their QBs ability to succeed. Atlanta wants to know if Matty Ice can finally not “choke” in the playoffs. San Fran wonders how Kapernick will do- now that teams have lots of game film on him. Detroit is again questioning Staffords ability to stay healthy.

    There are probably 4 teams that aren’t questioning their QB. Green Bay, New England, Pittsburgh, and New Orleans.

    Simple reason why. It’s the off season. News is far a few between. There just isn’t much going on.

    But you can always generate news, with a controversy. And the only guy who has that much interest is the QB. Most “fans” are truly clueless. They couldn’t point out which guy on the line is a guard.

    But even the dumbest ones can point out the QB. Quarterbacks always have passionate supporters, and passionate detractors. You can always find both positive and negative comments.

    At least it helps pass the time until training camp starts

  88. Andrew 1 Says:

    the only debate or controversy about Freeman that should matter is the one amongst the bucs organization. since there appears to be none its safe to say Freeman is and will be our QB for the foreseeable future. its just that some people dont want to accept that so… here we are.

  89. Illuminati Says:

    @Andrew 1

    Nail on the head. Just because there’s controversy doesn’t mean anyone that matters is buying into it.

    I’ve stated before that I think Schiano’s attitude is that he’s got a good young QB in Freeman, and there’s no reason to change that situation unless Freeman just completely melts the frig down.

    And even if that happened, you’d still have to have another guy ready to go that was better.

    As much as a lot of people hate on Freeman, he would be an instant upgrade for a lot of teams in this league. If we let him go, he will not be a backup somewhere, he’ll be an instant starter for another team.

  90. chris Says:

    Joe Says:
    June 18th, 2013 at 7:59 pm
    Chris:

    So many want to point fingers at the secondary last year, however, Freeman was equally as bad.

    Dude, Joe’s not on the Freeman bandwagon but that’s a bit much. The Bucs were 14 yards from worst secondary in NFL history. Though Joe is not a stat guy, Freeman did throw for over 4,000 yards. That’s not exactly putrid.

    Joe, this isn’t a shot at you. I was speaking in general of what Buc fans portrayed.

    Did Freeman toss 4,000 yds and 27 TDs? Sure. But his 3rd down conversion % was a putrid 24th in the league. 54 % completion percentage. 19 TOs.

    His stats came in bunches and really, only a 5 game spurt and garbage time against denver really boosted his statistics.

    Lets look at the “stats” in weeks 1-4:
    Combined against Car, @NYG, @Dal, WAS:
    - 3 of these teams were Playoff contenders and finsihed over .500:
    54.3 Completion % 790 yards (197 YPG) 5 TD 4 INTs
    - He looked average in the first 2, putrid in the next 2. Watching the Giants, Skins and Cowboys games, his inabliity to go through progressions left a lot of plays on the field.

    Next 6: KC, NO, @MIN, @OAK, SD, CAR.

    58.6 % Comp. 1715 yds (285.83YPG) 16 tds 3 int.

    NOTE: This was Freeman’s hot streak leading to winning 5 of the next 6. Note: The only defense that wasn’t putrid, was Minnesotas. And watching that game, our defense forced TOs and martin was a beast. Freeman played well, but he didn’t “tear it up”.

    Final 6 games:
    - ATL, @DEN, PHI, @NO, STL, @ATL
    - 52.6 % Comp. 1560 yds (260ypg) 6 TDs 10 INTs

    NOTE: 3 of these 6 were against playoff teams. The pressure was on and he folded. Also, against Denver and STL, if you watched, his yardage was highly inlated once the game was pretty much over.

    If you look at the 6 game stretch of good Freeman: Our defense wasn’t horrendous minus the 1st half of San Diego and New Orleans game. Josh played very well. However, none of those defenses, minus the Vikings, were even average.

  91. BamBamBuc Says:

    Ok, I’ve shown it a multitude of ways, but let’s look at this yet another way…

    Josh Freeman and the Bucs were the 13th overall offense in the NFL last year in scoring points. In the 7 years Gruden (offensive genius) coached the Bucs, the best he could muster was 18th. The Bucs haven’t been higher than 13th in the NFL since 2000, when Shaun King and Tony Dungy had them at 6th best in the NFL

    Josh Freeman and the Bucs were the 9th best in the NFL in yards last year. Brad Johnson and Jon Gruden got us to 10th once in 2003 and none of Dungy’s teams ever made it out of the 20′s in yards.

    Josh Freeman in 2012 compared to Brad Johnson in 2003: Freeman 4065 yards, Johnson 3811: Freeman 27 TDs, Johnson 26: Freeman 17 INTs, Johnson 21: both had 7-9 records, Free had 0.1 higher QB rating, Free had 1 full yard better yards/attempt, yet all this while under more pressure taking 26 sacks to Brad Johnson’s 20. Brad Johnson never won more than 10 games in a season (even in 2002, he only started 13 games, won 10, the other starters were King and Rob Johnson). That was one of Johnson’s best seasons in the NFL, his 10 season. The only one statistically better was 1999 in Washington, his 6th year in the league, his first 10 win sesason.

    In Freeman’s first 4 season, he currently has 3 of the top 6 yardage seasons in team history (including best overall). He has 2 of the top 3 TD pass seasons, for QBs starting the majority of the season his 2010 INT numbers tie him for 2nd best in a season for the Bucs and IS the best for any QB starting all 16 games in a season. Freeman has 2 of the best QB ratings for QBs starting a full season (2010,2012) There are a few better than 2012 that didn’t start all 16, only Dilfer started all 16 and beat Freeman’s 2012 rating 82.8 to 81.6. Brad Johnson (as shown above) was close with 81.5.

    Now, I said in “4″ season, but really he’s only started about 3 1/2. So, take out the first half season of starting and his next 3 years he’s been one of the best in franchise history statistically. He’s 24-32 as a starter, but record has as much to do with the team as the QB. Seriously, who can blame Free in 2011 when the D gave up 28 first quarter points every game (exaggeration, I know). In his 3 1/2 years as starter, he’s tied for 4th for most wins by a QB in team history with 24. Brad Johnson had 26 for us. It’s conceivable that in his 5th year he can surpass Doug Williams 33 wins to move into 2nd all time behind Dilfer. Oh yeah, Dilfer was 38-38 and Williams was 33-33-1 as Bucs QBs… straight up .500 record. Not much better % than Freeman at .428 and Freeman is still young enough to turn that around.

    That’s Freeman’s inconsistent #’s. 3 full seasons starting and all in the top 6 in passing yards in team history (even the horrid 2011 season @ 3rd overall). Let’s just throw this guy away and take a flyer on a rookie 3rd round pick out of the ACC who had only 2 years starting there and a 15-11 record in that conference.

  92. chris Says:

    ^^^No offense, but I think my breakdown sums up Freeman in a bunch. Plays well against bad defenses. Bad against good. The bulk of his “Good” was in that 6 game stretch against bad defenses.

  93. BamBamBuc Says:

    Not so sure about that… let’s take a look, shall we?

    Defensive rankings. Overall and against the pass

    KC: 25th, 12th
    NO: 31st, 31st
    MIN: 15th, 24th
    OAK: 28th, 20th
    SD: 16th, 18th
    CAR: 18th, 13th

    Ok, so the Saints and Raiders could be considered overall pretty bad. But KC, while 25th in overall defense was actually pretty good against the pass. The Vikings were pretty good overall, but not so much against the pass yet were tied for 5th in the league in sacks on the year, so they did get good pressure. Panthers and Chargers were middle of the road or better. 9th and 11th in the league in sacks last year. So, it’s not like they were the worst defenses in the NFL (although the Saints were probably the exception.

  94. BamBamBuc Says:

    Also funny to note…. teams in the bottom 10 pass defenses last year included in your “good” defense category:

    23rd Atlanta

    and in your Playoff contender category (over .500)

    28th Giants
    30th Redskins

    So, you should be saying Freeman wasn’t even that good against mediocre to bad defenses. I’d disagree, since you could also look at rushing numbers and say that the 79, 80 and 50 rushing yards in those 3 losses didn’t help. Of course the 510, 321, and 345 passing yards given up by our D didn’t help either. What really hurt was having the LEAD in ALL of those losses in the 4TH QUARTER and losing. See, it’s really about points, we score more we win, but if we score more, then let them score last, they usually end up with more and we lose…. hmmm, maybe we shouldn’t let them score last?

  95. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ chris

    your are generalizing and misplacing some of the blame when you say he plays bad against good defenses.

    your weeks 1-4 summary failed to mention that he got us the lead in atleast 2 of those games ( NYG, Wash.) only for it to have been blown with the last seconds of the game by our horrible defense. hardly Freemans fault there.

    the same can be said about your summary of the final 6 games. yet again 2 of those 6 games (ATL, Philly) he got us the lead only to watch it be blown in the last seconds of the game by our defense.

    there is no doubt about it, with a better defense we would have won at least 10 games and been playoff bound. your blaming Freeman for our defensive faults. the defense is more to blame for us missing the playoffs. its as simple as that.

  96. chris Says:

    ^^^Shaking my head. Listen, It’s not that I don’t want Josh Freeman to succeed. As a die hard bucs fan, I know it’s him that needs to contribute and become that consistent franchise signal caller. Does he have to be elite? No. But he needs to break into a top notch very good QB, which is say better that 18 other QBs and break the top 12.

    From what I’ve seen in 4 years, and yes I’m going back to 2010, where he did NOT perform well against the better teams. He does not play well in big games. He struggles against better opposition. The playoff caliber teams.

    We need him to step it up. However, I’m not going to sugar coat the facts either. He’s been a dissappointment in the nfl 4 years in. You can point to the defense, however what do you say when he gets that lost puppy look on his face?

  97. BuccaneerBonzai Says:

    BamBam nails it again. Dude should write a book.

  98. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ BamBamBuc

    great posts. people, for what reason, cant seem to understand that our defense blew the lead late in the game to loose. somehow they consider that Freemans fault. its annoying really.

  99. Couch Fan Says:

    @Andrew 1

    the defense is more to blame for us missing the playoffs. its as simple as that.
    ———————————————————————————————

    More to blame? Yes. All of the blame? No.

    You named the Philly game as an example of how the defense blew the lead. What if Josh didnt play absolutely awful for much of that game and built us a bigger lead? That most likely would of won us that game also. You see how it works? Can’t blame anything solely on the defense when Josh stinks it up a plenty of times on his own.

  100. PRBucFan Says:

    Flippity floppity….. flippity floppity lmao

    None of this talk/debate about Josh matters lol, it makes absolutely no difference to the reality of his situation.

    It’s now or never with the Bucs.

    I could care less if he succeeds somewhere else because IF that happens to be the case it would have meant he failed here and as a Bucs fan that’s all that matters to me.

  101. chris Says:

    Note to the philly game: The defense did play strong. It was the continuous 3 and outs that killed them. Any defense could not perform up to that task.

  102. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    ever heard the saying “its not how you start, its how you finish.” or “games are won and lost in the 4th quarter.” how Freemans plays in the first quarter doesnt concern me AS MUCH as how plays the rest of the game to put us in position to win the game. in several games last season he put us in position to win the game. it was up to the defense to hold up on there end and they didnt.

  103. Andrew 1 Says:

    do I wish he would play perfectly for the whole game? sure. but perfect play from any QB in the league DOES NOT EXIST. the most important question is does he put us in position late in the game to win? the answer is yes, more times than not last season he did.

  104. Andrew 1 Says:

    @ Couch Fan

    where you at? a couple of weeks ago you accused me of “ducking and hiding.” looks like you were talking about yourself.

  105. BamBamBuc Says:

    Ok, here’s an argument I heard a lot after the 2010 season… “Our 10 wins were a fluke, we had an easy schedule and beat a bunch of backup QBs”. (for those not around, I believe it was Thomas 2.2 that loved to talk about the backup QBs we beat). Well, last year, in the Philly game we played against a backup QB. The offense wasn’t “on fire”, but in the 4th quarter we had an 11 point lead (that’s 2 scores up in the 4th) against a backup QB (3rd round pick from the PAC-12, 3 year starter with better stats than Glennon in the ACC, but that’s another story). We may have done little in the first half, but a 2 score lead against a backup rookie QB? And the Eagles come back to win as time runs out. No time for a heroic comeback by our offense, the clock struck 0:00 and they scored the winning TD. Doesn’t matter if you think Freeman or the entire offense looked bad that game, we had a 2 score lead in the 4th quarter against a backup rookie QB, our defense should have held.

    Did I mention that our D gave up 2 TDs late in the 4th quarter to a backup rookie 3rd round pick QB from the PAC-12? Yeah, and Freeman lost us that game….

  106. BamBamBuc Says:

    PRBuc: Does that mean he failed here? Or that we gave up on the wrong guy? Just saying, if he has success somewhere else down the road, it could mean we should have stuck with him and maybe made changes elsewhere on the team. It’s happened before. There was this one QB for the Bucs named Steve Young that turned out pretty good somewhere else. And another that started in San Diego named Drew Brees that’s doing pretty well elsewhere.

    Of course, he may be the right guy to let go. Carson Palmer hasn’t done much, Kevin Kolb and Matt Cassell either. Even though Alex Smith has had limited success in his career, did the 49ers make the right choice? Smith was looking good in his 6th and 7th years in the league before Kaepernick came in halfway through the season. So, Kaep played well for half a season, who says that will continue? Smith may have been the best guy and they let him go. Only time will tell, but the truth is a lot of fans out there are crowning the next set of “elite” QBs after one season or two. Look at Cam Newton after his rookie record-setting year, the Panthers were “Super Bowl Contenders” until they only won 4 games. Luck, Griffin, Wilson have all been crowned champions, but they haven’t done anything more than Mark Sanchez yet. Even Tim Tebow has been as successful as those guys. Is that more than Freeman? Yeah, they made the playoffs, but Freeman has been getting better. Sanchez is fighting for his job (may have already lost it) and Tebow is probably a backup TE in New England.

    Yes, this is a “prove it” year for Freeman, because they’ve given him a more complete team to win with. Team… not offense, team. We now have a defense that might be able to stop other teams and hold a lead. The only reason I beat the drum that Freeman is our QB is because I do believe that if he plays like he did last year, and with an improved pass D, two Pro-Bowl guards returning, a 2nd year RB… this team is going places and I really think you should all get used to the idea that he may be our QB for a very long time.

  107. Couch Fan Says:

    @Andrew 1

    So its ok if Josh stinks up the whole first half and puts a bad defense in a position to where they HAVE to make a stop to win us a game? Does that sound very smart to you?

    Not to me. I’m not going to give Josh a pass for stinking up the first half just because he managed to pull us ahead late in a game against a bad team when we should of never been behind in the first place. Thats just silly.

  108. Walter Says:

    Lol damn, I missed all of this.

    Did someone on here really try to say Tannehill and Dalton are better than Freeman?? Come on, hate the guy if you want, but don’t try to tell me that a rookie that threw more INT’s than TD’s (btw, 12td’s in a season??? That’s weak!) is better than a veteran who broke franchise records in yards and TD’s. that’s just stupid.

  109. BamBamBuc Says:

    CouchFan: Get it right… the defense was put in a position to have to make 2 stops (both TDs, because the first 2 point conversion was missed, so 2 TDs). If they had made one stop, we would have won, but they gave up 2 TDs. All within the last 7:21 of the game. Yep, that’s right, they had to hold a 2 score lead for 1/2 of one quarter of the game and we win.

    Freeman may not have done much first half, but he threw for 2 TDs, 0 INTs, ran for 13 yards on a 3rd and 9 to keep the drive alive that scored the TD that put us up 2 scores (a Doug Martin run). On that same drive he completed a 28 yard pass to Jackson on 3rd and 7 to also continue the drive. This drive took nearly 6 minutes off the clock to get us to the halfway point of the 4th quarter with a 21-10 lead.

    If you want to blame Freeman for not sustaining a drive between their scores to keep the ball out of their hands, let me give you a little information about our last possession… The coaching staff called 5 consecutive runs by Martin. One got a first down, one had a penalty, one was on 2nd and 17 and the other 3rd and 8. Then we punt. How can that be put on Freeman????

  110. Raphael Says:

    So many stupid morons to choose from but it really comes down to Robert and free’s a boob……….it difficult but I think Robert is the dumbest poster here ….
    My god what a dumbass !

  111. PRBucFan Says:

    No BamBam it means he failed here, what someone else does somewhere else is of no concern to our team.

    IF he does ever succeed elsewhere good for him but it doesn’t change the fact the he didn’t cut it here.

    You don’t get an unlimited amount of years to get it right on a team in the NFL, sorry that’s not reality.

    IF he fails this year, he got his shot, plain and simple.

  112. PRBucFan Says:

    Alex Smith didn’t deserve to get released, different scenarios.

  113. PRBucFan Says:

    Or rather replaced.

  114. Raphael Says:

    Free will be here for a long long time . …there are a lot of teams who would love to have him.

  115. PRBucFan Says:

    BUT hopefully we aren’t even having this conversation come this season.

    I’m believing in good things this season.

    P.S. I say he didn’t “deserve” to get replaced, but obviously CK seemed to be a smart choice by their coach. I think Alex Smith was just hitting his stride though before his injury

  116. Raphael Says:

    Lmao @ the haters …. We had the 9 th ranked Offense in the league ..think about it..

    We had the 29 ranked defense ….. How dumb are some of you exactly ??

  117. PRBucFan Says:

    Oh and Steve Young only had two seasons with the Bucs before they gave up on him, it’s absurd to give up on a QB after two seasons IMO… Josh will have had 5 lol. Quite a different scenario as well jajaja.

  118. Couch Fan Says:

    The coaching staff called 5 consecutive runs by Martin. One got a first down, one had a penalty, one was on 2nd and 17 and the other 3rd and 8. Then we punt. How can that be put on Freeman????

    —————————————————————–

    Probably because the coaching staff didnt trust Freeman enough to put the ball in his hands? Imagine that. I wonder why? Couldn’t possibly be because they saw the same thing us fans (without the blinders) did.

  119. Raphael Says:

    Very dumb

  120. scubog Says:

    I wish Joe would stop posting articles about Josh Freeman for a while. People who think Josh is at least adequate will point out the games Freeman did enough to win only to have the defense allow one final drive to lose. Then the people who think Freeman “sucks” will point out that Josh should have scored more points to put the game out of reach for the opponent. As if Favre and Manning never brought their teams from behind.

  121. Architek Says:

    Nothing like a good Freeman debate!

  122. Macabee Says:

    This is either catharsis, which is good for the human soul or an unintended abuse of the First Amendment!

  123. stevek Says:

    WCBF,

    We need “better play” from Freeman to make the playoffs. He is capable, talented, yada yada, but does he have “it”? We will find out in 2013.

    Schiano had a great 2012 draft, didn’t he? :)

  124. stevek Says:

    @Walter,

    Dolphins @ Bucs for MNF, may the winner decide the QB totem pole.

  125. BamBamBuc Says:

    PRBuc: Alex Smith “hit his stride” in his 6th year. Before that he had never sniffed 10 wins, and still hasn’t come close to 4000 yards or 27 TDs in a season ever. But he didn’t “deserve” it? If Alex Smith getting 6 years to “prove it” and a 19-31 record over the first 5 years, then Freeman is the next Drew Brees.

    Couch: Now you’re grasping at straws to put Freeman down. The coaches didn’t trust him in the 4th, so that’s why they ran on every single down. Yeah, right, no coach would ever think about running the ball to run out the clock. Had nothing to do with Freeman, and you know it. And even using that strategy to kill the clock and use all Philly’s timeouts up, the Eagles still came back to win. Yep, those 5 runs took 1:05 off the clock and used all 3 Eagles timeouts. They had the ball with 2:44 on the clock, no timeouts and 64 yards to go, they converted 3rd and 14 (penalty), 4th and 1, 4th and 5, and the final TD score of 2nd and goal at the 1.

  126. Couch Fan Says:

    LMAO @ grasping straws

    We had less than a 1 touchdown lead with a horrible defense. Schiano had to of known we had a horrible defense right? Is it really so hard to believe that our coach took the ball out of our QB’s hands who was happening to have an awful day and instead choose to give it to our budding RB? Oh yes that is soooo grabbing at straws. Funny how you make up all these excuses for Freeman but when someone counters your opinion, they are “grasping at straws”.

    I’m not trying to put Freeman down. He had an awful day that game and his play put himself down more than I ever could. Thats keeping it real. I dont hate the guy nor would I intentionally go out of my way to put him down. You are the one acting all sensitive as if Freeman had such a monster game when the truth is just the opposite. The defense actually played one of there better games. Did they give it up at the end? Yes. But that is no excuse for Freemans pathetic performance where a better 1st half would of locked the game up for us.

    You can’t deny this.

  127. stevek Says:

    BAMBAMBUC,

    What about the Dallas game? Our QB can’t do squat without a headset on.

    RG3 had his headset communication cut off (after Freeman’s) at Tampa, but still came out victorious.

    We need a QB that can use his mind **CONSISTENTLY**, and help us make reads, utilize match ups, sustain drvies, and ultimately win us games.

  128. stevek Says:

    Couch,

    What about the Denver game? Our D played pretty well, but Freeman couldn’t move the chains in the 2nd half….

    Our D played well enough to win, but Freeman could not handle the pass rush + making reads and progressions….

  129. Couch Fan Says:

    @SteveK

    I remember that game very well. I believe our Defense held them to like 3 points or 10 points at half time and we were still down at the half. I remember saying repeatedly Freeman will have to play much better because there is no way our defense is going to hold them the entire game… ultimately we lost by 8. Another example of where a better first half would of tremendously helped our chances of winning.

  130. BamBamBuc Says:

    Couch, we held them to 7 at the half and were leading 10-7 at halftime. I was actually at that game. Doug Martin had a couple good runs early in the game, but was essentially shut down (71 yards for the game, 15 carries for 48 yards in the first half, finished with 18 for 56). Our O-line was really struggling, Freeman was under constant pressure, Martin couldn’t find an opening. Freeman had a 109.5 QB rating in the first half of that game, 1 TD to Clark and no INTs. Manning had a 115 rating in the first half and was still down. Special teams was horrible that game as Trindon Holiday averaged almost 24 yards a return on 4 punts. Manning had 2 TDs in the 2nd half to take the lead and was intercepted by Lavonte David once. There were a few dropped passes by our WRs and a few balls batted down at the line of scrimmage. No excuses for anyone in that game, but it wasn’t one guy that lost that game for us.

  131. Walter Says:

    @stevek

    I’m literally not worried about that game at all. The whole nation is going to watch us squish the fish that night, and I’m going to love it.

  132. BamBamBuc Says:

    stevek: Yeah, I know you’re talking about the infamous run play when the headset failed in the Dallas game. But again, that was a horrible game all around, by both teams really. Was Freeman bad? Yeah, but Romo had a 45.6 QB rating in the first half. Did Doug Martin spark the team? 9 carries for 31 yards in the first half (3.4 ypc, and one was a 17 yd run, so 8 for 14 yards, less than 2 ypc). Almost had fans screaming for Blount early in the year (2 carries for 15 yards, 7.5 ypc). Freeman only threw 10 passes in the first half, 1 was a TD, another was an INT… Not really a lot of opportunity to put the team on his back there. Even so, we took the early lead on a Talib INT, a couple DAL penalties and a Freeman toss to Stocker.

    That was about it really. Freeman finished about as bad as he started, Martin finished with 19 for 53 (2.8 ypc). Defense wasn’t horrible, sacked Romo 4 times. Receiving wasn’t good, Jackson was targeted 7 times, caught 1. Williams was targeted 6 times, caught 2. Some of that was Freeman, some was not. No excuses, that was a bad game for the offense in general.

    The Redskins game wasn’t much different, except Freeman had a better game. 24 of 39 for 299, 1 TD, 1 INT and an 83.2 rating. Jackson and Williams topped 100 yards receiving that game, and Underwood even did well. Martin only had 8 carries for 31 yards, and Blount another 6 for 17, so our run game didn’t help much at all. We were down 21-6 at the half, mostly due to the defense giving up 75 rushing yards to Morris and Griffin going 12 of 15 with a 106.9 rating in the first half. Yet, we scored 16 consecutive points to take the lead (sure we could have had a faster start, but final score is what matters). Those scores were led by Freeman (as evidenced by the lack of a run game) and left the Skins with 1 timeout and 1:42 on the clock. The following drive, Griffin completed passes of 15, 20, and 4 yards consecutively (and we’re trying to keep them out of FG range???), a 15 yard scramble, another 7 yard completion and FG with no time left to do anything but return a kickoff. Again, we had the lead with less than 2 minutes to go, and couldn’t stop anyone.

    Not saying Freeman was spectacular in either of those two games, but he did enough in the Skins game and didn’t exactly get much help in either game.

  133. PRBucFan Says:

    Alex Smith last two season with the 49rs he was leading that team to victoriesand he had hit his stride. He gets hurt and never sees the field again. He didn’t “deserve” that but hey… That’s football.

    This season determine whether Freeman “deserves” to stay here or not. If he plays good and gets rid of his Jekyll/Hyde act I’d day he “deserves” a contract if not than no lol. It’s about a lot more than just having a big arm in this league, hopefully in year 2 he’s more mentally poised.

    With Bree’s he didn’t “deserve” to he replaced by Phillip, that was obvious to the world minus San Diego lol.

  134. PRBucFan Says:

    Freeman is Freeman, his situation is unique to itself and no amount of comparing other QB’s or other QB’s experiences to him makes a smidgen of a difference.

    It’s now or never and if he earns a contract extension great for him, but if he doesn’t, he’s got no one else to blame but himself.

    That being said I am officially retiring from Freeman debating lol, I wanna watch and let it play out how it’s going to play out. :)
    Hopefully it plays out in Free’s favor for our organizations sake.
    Till than I got lots more Buc news and areas of the team to read about/be excited about jajaja. Cheers.

  135. BamBamBuc Says:

    HaHa PRBuc, I doubt you can hold out the rest of the summer on Freeman debates, but that’s cool. I’m just having fun with it until the season starts. I do realize every situation is unique, and the reason I brought up the Alex Smith situation was because he had 5 bad years, I mean really bad years before he got to his 6th year and played well enough to not deserve being let go. Freeman has had 2 pretty good years in only 3 years starting, one good year record-wise (only missed playoffs due to tie-breaks) and is only starting his 4th full season as starting QB. Even considering it’s his 5th, he’s younger than most QBs in their 5th year (and younger than some in their 2nd year). What he’s done compared to Alex Smith’s first 5 years is head and shoulders better. By most people’s standards, Alex Smith didn’t deserve to stick around to be successful in his 6th year (and probably not his 5th or 4th either). Yet, he turned it around and played well and in the end we’ll have to wait and see if the 49ers made a good decision or not. If Kaepernick is a one year wonder, that’s one less team we’ll have to fight for a playoff spot against in the NFC.

  136. PRBucFan Says:

    Lol your probably right ;)

    I’m going to try jajaja. Yea man it’s always fun talking with you, I just can’t wait for us to have our answer finally lol.

  137. Buc'n Junkie Says:

    I think Josh’s career has mirrored Sam Bradford in a lot of ways.

 
 

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