Denzel Ward And The Bucs

April 16th, 2018

Visiting Tampa.

Depending on how one perceives the Bucs, the following news is either a harbinger of great things to come, or is the dawning of a complete and total trainwreck that may stain the franchise for years.

The Bucs are expected to welcome talented Ohio State cornerback Denzel Ward to One Buc Palace this week for one of the team’s 30 allotted player visits to the team facility.

This news comes from Ward by way of Nick Shook of NFL.com.

Wednesday is the final day for these visits from college players.

Ward is largely believed by many to be the top cornerback in the draft. He’s a helluva talent. However, given how the Bucs current defensive coaching staff has crapped the bed with rookie corners, Joe fears for Ward’s career if the Bucs choose him No. 7 overall.

If this actually transpires, Joe will light a candle for Ward at St. Jude the Apostle parish in St. Petersburg, seat of the Diocese of St. Petersburg.

Why that parish? Because St. Jude is the patron saint of lost causes.

Bucs defensive coaches have an OK if not solid record of working with veteran corners. Rookies? Ah, no, that would be 0-3.

Hat tip Gil Arcia.

76 Responses to “Denzel Ward And The Bucs”

  1. Tval Says:

    for every 1 legit buckeye db there’s been, i can name you 5 overrated bums who never made an impact in the nfl. too risky

  2. Defense Rules Says:

    @Joe … “given how the Bucs current defensive coaching staff has crapped the bed with rookie corners, Joe fears for Ward’s career if the Bucs choose him No. 7 overall. Bucs defensive coaches have an OK if not solid record of working with veteran corners. Rookies? Ah, no, that would be 0-3.”

    Just thought it was worth repeating Joe. Interesting that you see the defensive coaches as being ‘solid’ working with vets but crap with rookies. Especially when those 3 rookies are VHIII (lacks skills for outside & in no way should’ve been Licht’s 1st Rnd pick), Ryan Smith (4th Rnd pick who Licht drafted as a Safety & wasted his 1st year as such), and Javien Elliott (undrafted).

    Yup, 0-3. All lack starting talent … courtesy of you know who. But hey, it’s much easier to blame the coaches so keep going for it. BTW, if the Big-3 are gone, wouldn’t mind Ward at #7 at all. We’ve GOT to fix our secondary.

  3. Capt.Tim Says:

    Ward has the speed and skills to play CB in the Nfl.
    But he is frailly build, lacking the body type to “muscle up” much futher.
    The big NFC south WRs will be able to manhandle him at the line of scrimmage.

  4. Ocala Says:

    I’d much rather have Nelson, James, Vea or Fitzpatrick if the Bucs stay at 7

  5. Buccaneer scotty Says:

    I agree Defense Rules

  6. Pickgrin Says:

    Somebody call PETA. Poor horse been lying dead for some time and this Joe won’t stop beating it….

    Ward at #7 sounds like a reach to me. 12 or 15 I could see but 7 is too high for this player. He’s fast, but what other elite quality or measurable justifies that high of a pick? Jaire Alexander (Louisville) and Donte jackson (LSU) are both just as fast and will likely be available early in Rd 2.

    Bucs are almost certainly drafting a CB prior to the end of day 2 – so you better stock up on candles Joe.

  7. Sumo Says:

    Give it a break Joe. We need a couple of corners here no matter who the coaches are.

  8. Dewey Selmon Says:

    Every article is the samething when it comes to CB’s. You’ve gotten to predictable Job. And I USED to try and defend you when people called you a hack.

  9. BucEmUp Says:

    Well Joe, maybe the best thing is for them to draft a db at 7. I mean they have already screwed up the other rookies, drafting another one with the first rounder and that guy falling off as well would only pile on the already over flowing stack of evidence that Mike Smith has never had a good defense that was HIS defense. At least if they draft defense the new coach (likely Buckner By week 6) will have something to work with

  10. JA Says:

    @Defense Rules—
    Couldn’t agree more…

  11. TJ Says:

    When I first saw some mocks that Ward would be drafted by the Bucs I was not impressed but as I think about it now I am pretty happy If we do draft him. Im a die hard Ohio State fan, year before last (people dont know this) Ohio State rotated there CB’s. Marshawn Latimore and Ward rotated in and out he entire year and the defense did not miss a beat. Ward is fast and physical, he plays great bump in run coverage (unlike Hargraves). My only issue with Ward is he got away with alot of illegal touching that was not called but if Nelson,Barkely or Chubb is not on the board take Ward.

  12. lambchop Says:

    Whether this coaching staff develops him or not, the next coaching staff probably will. You still need talent at the position. But, I agree with @Defense Rules, there haven’t been a whole lot of talent at CB for Mike Smith to do anything with. And the crap show DL didn’t help the secondary one bit either. This season will hopefully be a lot more productive.

    I’m sure Mike Smith is not that dumb not to put Grimes on Julio, so there’s something to that decision which we aren’t privileged to. If you get a CB who can actually ball, how much can Mike Smith screw it up? VH3 played off WRs, and it was said that it was VH3’s choice to back off WRs and not coaches telling him to. His confidence was shook last year. Hopefully, he either locks down the nickel or gets his swag back and plays outside when needed.

  13. TBChucky Says:

    Joe’s schtick is getting tiresome.. I may need to start spending more time on Pewter Report and Bucsnation.com.

  14. JabooBuc Says:

    This is really tired Joe. A pass rush will help the entire defensive backfield tremendously.

  15. Bob in Valrico Says:

    Don’t blame the coaches when Licht hasn’t given them a corner with some tools
    to work with. VH3 would not listen to coaches that told him he was playing too far off. Coupled with his height and not fast enough to stay with stay the elite receivers.
    I am not for drafting Ward because he is similar player to Hargreaves in stature.
    Sure he has great speed but he plays man coverage and that makes him more of a pass defender. Ward has only 2 INT’s in his three years in college.
    We need a difference maker in our backfield defensive INT’s help win games and we already have one corner who is short and his cover skills have not been good enough so far. If we go for a DB at no. 7 then Minkah Kelly
    brings a lot to the table. He can blitz, cover and make game changing Int’s.

  16. Bird Says:

    Pickgrin

    That’s hilarious. Good post

  17. Kobe Faker Says:

    183 lb 5 11″corner Densel Ward with a 5 11″190lb safety Justin Evans

    vs 225lb Julio Jones….YIKES

  18. Oxycondoms Says:

    After this season the new set of coaches can develop ward

  19. Phil Says:

    Unless Barkley or Chubb is available this is the guy I hope we draft.

  20. Tampabaybucfan Says:

    Joe….you sure don’t find many agreeing with you on the coaching issue…..how about bringing some other opinions that agree with you…..I think you are like song: “All By Myself” & this one is for you Tmax

    When I was young
    I never needed anyone
    And makin’ love was just for fun
    Those days are gone
    Livin’ alone
    I think of all the friends I’ve known
    But when I dial the telephone
    Nobody’s home
    All by myself
    Don’t want to be, all by myself anymore
    All by myself
    Don’t want…

  21. TJ Says:

    Bob in Valrico Jalen Ramesy had 3 total Ints at Florida State numbers can lie.

  22. Blake_Bucsfan Says:

    @Pick

    Apart from being 5’10 and a little on the skinny side, Denzel Ward is an elite athlete in every measurable category, and he has very good tape on top of that.

    I wouldn’t take him over any of the Big 3, and I would obviously prefer for us to take him at 12 via a trade, but should none present itself I’d say he’d be a much better pick for us than Derwin James or Minkah Fitzpatrick.

    @Kobe Faker

    Just stop ok, There are about 20 starting caliber corners in the every season that are 5’11 or 5’10. Everyone knows that you don’t stop players like Julio Jones or Calvin Johnson in single coverage, you stop them with a 2 man bracket.

    One of the best corners of all-time, Darrel Green, was a 5’9 midget as you or Tmax would probably say, and he played until he was 42.

    If you can cover you can cover, it doesn’t matter if you’re 5’9 or 6’3.

  23. Blake_Bucsfan Says:

    *…in the league every season…*

  24. Bucsfanman Says:

    I’m not big on this guy but I’d take him over James. We need corner help so bad.
    What I really hope is that the draft falls into our lap at #7 making it easy for us. PLEASE!

  25. Bob in Valrico Says:

    TJ
    Go back and look at college stats of Ramsey Kelly, and Ward. The numbers don’t lie , Both Ramsey and Kelly had superior numbers in tackles and and sacks.
    In fact Ramsey and Kelly are are pretty comparable in that regard.

  26. Bucnjim Says:

    I like the saying you can’t polish a turd better! That applies to at least two of the three.

  27. Bucnjim Says:

    I like the saying you can’t polish a turd better! That applies to at least two of the three.

  28. Blake_Bucsfan Says:

    @Bob in Valrico

    Well considering that you’re calling Minkah Fitzpatrick Minkah Kelly, I’m gonna go ahead and guess that you aren’t 100 percent clued in.

    But Ramsey and Fitzpatrick were both Hybrid Safeties in college, and 3 year starters, so it’s no real wonder as to why they would have more tackles than Ward, a 2 year starter who strictly played Corner.

    Corners aren’t exactly known to get a huge number of tackles. But on tape Ward shows that he is a solid tackler in the open field, and he had more Passes defensed per game than either Fitzpatrick or Ramsey. I’d say go watch the film and see for yourself but you probably wouldn’t even know what you’re looking at.

  29. Joe Says:

    Minkah Kelly

    LOL!!!

  30. I Bleed Pewter and Red Says:

    There is not one corner or safety worthy of the #7 pick in this draft. When it’s our pick and none of the coveted picks are there and we cannot trade back then select the best QB on the board. Someone will be on the phone wanting to make a trade. It may seem risky but I believe it would be a sure fire bet to induce desired results and collect extra picks in the process. Sorta like San Diego picking Eli Manning and swapping him to the NY Giants for Rivers and 3 extra picks. San Diego created that scenario and got the desired results. Teams are convinced we would not choose a QB with our pick so they’re not motivated to make a deal with us to grab our spot. For instance if say Josh Allen, Baker Mayfield or even Lamar Jackson are there at #7, I would select one of them before settling with an undervalued pick. As soon as that pick is made you can bet QB needy teams will want to make a deal.

  31. TJ Says:

    @Blake _ bucs fan…..Thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  32. Scotty in Fat Antonio Says:

    I’ll take Minkah Kelly for $200 Alex (Joe)

  33. ndog Says:

    When one lacks intelligent things to say they repeat themselves over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

  34. Joe Says:

    Bucs are almost certainly drafting a CB prior to the end of day 2 – so you better stock up on candles Joe.

    1. If the Bucs want to burn a draft pick on a CB the later in the draft the better. Less painful that way.

    2. Joe’s not buying candles. The Catholic church supplies them (though a donation is expected).

  35. Pa Privateer Says:

    The OHIO STATE DL makes the secondary look better than they appear.

    I would say consider drafting one of the 3 Ohio State DEs like Hubbard or Lewis.

  36. Joe Says:

    Joe….you sure don’t find many agreeing with you on the coaching issue

    Don’t care.

    It seems Joe is the only one who has balls to call it like he sees it. Again, please provide evidence where Bucs coaches have helped Vernon Hargreaves, Ryan Smith or Javien Elliott improve. Or at least be status quo. All three got worse. That is a horrible track record and not sure how spending a No. 7 overall pick will magically reverse this.

    And no, Joe doesn’t care (now) what Mike Smith or Brett Maxie or Jon Hoke did in the past. Joe cares about what they are doing now. A resume is great when searching for a job. But once you have the job, your history means nothing.

    Joe is a huge coaches guy. Joe has personal experience how much a good coach can help a player and Joe has also seen way too many times how a bad coach can destroy a player or a team.

    Of course, if one’s standard for an NFL coach is to just cuss and holler like someone sitting at a bar seven Bud Lights into their afternoon, then yeah, Joe can see and understand how this issue is trivial.

    Joe has never been about running with a take he does not believe in just for the sake of popularity. In Joe’s eyes, that’s pretty vapid, lame and ethically bankrupt. Joe is not a salesman.

    Joe believes he comes to the table with logical takes often backed up by evidence if not reason. If Joe wanted to be popular, he would have been slurping Chucky to return to the Bucs. Or to lead the cheerleaders to draft this Quenton Nelson.

    Joe wrote about how Josh Freeman would be a “bust in waiting” and got crucified for that stance.

    Joe got totally raked over the coals for begging the Bucs to move on from Doug Martin last year — so bad Joe even got a text where a guy was going to try to beat Joe up. Yeah, really. That happened.

    Joe thinks the one reason this site is so well read by fans is that Joe types from his head and believes what he types.

  37. Pepsi Says:

    Can you elaborate how the current coaching staff cant develop rookie corners? We had a mistake of a top 10 pick on Hargreaves, many at the time said hes just a a nickel corner. The other is Ryan Smith who was a safety for most of his time at nccu, drafted in the 4th round to play safety. He wasnt drafted to play corner and then they thought theyd try him as safety because plans changed.. he was drafted and in the same night Licht said in his presser we’re going to put him at safety… and again a 4th round pick.. so What are you guys talking about when you say this current coaching stuff is bad at developing rookie corners? Youre seriously basing that off of an overrated Hargreaves, a 4th rounder who wasted a year at safety, and an undrafted dude? Theres absolutely no middle ground here. if these guys did work out then youd be saying that the current coaching staff is incredible at developing CBs. How about we all agree that were very thin at corner talent… going into the season with Smith as a stater is a huge risk, but there jury is still out on him and some other young guys.

  38. Joe Says:

    Can you elaborate how the current coaching staff cant develop rookie corners?

    Coach them up to either put them in position to succeed in order to get the most out of their talent or — and Joe knows this may be a novel concept — help improve their play.

    Again, Joe is a big, big coaches guy. Coaches are teachers. Good ones, that is. Not expecting miracles, not expecting Javien Elliott to be an All Pro. Joe just at least wants the players to be status quo (meaning not to decline in the play and at least be consistent).

    How about we all agree that were very thin at corner talent

    They are! Again, Joe has recognized Bucs coaches seem to do OK if not well with veteran corners. Brent Grimes has had a rebirth since joining the Bucs. Robert McClain played better than probably anyone expected last year.

    It is the rookie corners these guys don’t seem to know what to do with.

    Joe is not suggesting the Bucs do not need corners. Just that with the coaches the Bucs currently have, those corners better be veterans.

  39. Bucsfanman Says:

    ^^^I actually agree with Joe on this AND, I’ll take it a step further, it’s not JUST the corners it’s the entire defense. I see terrible schemes, poor tackling, and no significant improvement in any one area on defense. There were ZERO adjustments made to this group all season. Now, we’re led to believe that this coaching staff is going to get us to the playoffs because of an upgrade here or there?
    Better pray that no starters go down because Smitty is incapable of making adjustments.

  40. Blake_Bucsfan Says:

    @Bucsfanman

    The thing that you and Joe are both failing to realize, is that just because the defensive coaching staff should have been replaced after last season, that doesn’t mean that you don’t address your biggest needs with premium picks.

    Mike Smith won’t be around after this season if he turns in another year of garbage defense.

    A corner cannot be ruined by coaching after 1 season. That’s just a ludicrous concept to begin with and you take any all accountability away from the players.

  41. 813bucboi Says:

    i agree with you joe…..

    these coaches cant develop a CB to save their a$$…….funny how people want ward who is faster but smaller than VHG…..

    funny how folks want to say you cant properly judge smitty because he had no dline but slam VHG….who also played with no dline…..

    funny how folks want to make excuses for players and coaches because of injuries but don’t want to give VHG the benefit of the doubt because of his injuries……

    im pretty sure VHG got injured earlier than we believe, just like Winston…..

    like joe, I wish folks would hold this staff accountable and call it how they see it…..folks must want every DB to be a first round pick that’s 6’2 and run a 4.2…..lol….its called coaching….its called developing…..

    have you same people asked yourselves how did chris harris get so good…..caysey haward?…..Malcolm butler?……josh norman?…….

    coaching and development……

    #NOEXCUSESIN2018!!!!!!…..GO BUCS!!!!!!

  42. Pickgrin Says:

    Thanks for providing the extended explanation Joe.

    But it doesn’t make this cockamamie theory of yours any more plausible or understandable.

    Your “evidence” wouldn’t hold up even in some banana republic courtroom.

    Ryan Smith 100% “progressed” during the course of last season. His play, his coverage – and his confidence in particular all increased visibly.

    Dude – both your co-workers (other Joe and Irv) are even laughing at you regarding this crazy take. Time to reassess the idea of pushing this odd narrative in EVERY SINGLE CB article from now until September…

  43. Joe Says:

    Blake:

    The thing that you and Joe are both failing to realize, is that just because the defensive coaching staff should have been replaced after last season, that doesn’t mean that you don’t address your biggest needs with premium picks.

    You also have to factor in if current coaches could ruin a corner beyond repair. And if the Bucs win this year, unlikely those coaches are replaced (unless they are giving up hideous amounts of passing yards).

    Joe always uses Johnthan Banks as an example. He really looked like an up-and-comer with Schiano and never recovered from Lovie. He’s now coaching high school football.

    Joe’s of the mind a No. 7 pick overall is an awfully expensive gamble to hope a future coaching staff — if there is a change — can magically salvage him.

  44. Blake_Bucsfan Says:

    Who’s to say that Banks wasn’t the cause of his own downfall?

    I despised the “coaching job” done by Lovie, but who is to say that Banks was dedicated enough to his craft? Who’s to say that he put in the work to improve? Who’s to say whether NFL OC’s figured out how to effectively exploit his shortcomings and deficiencies?

    Nothing in the NFL is 100% black and white, and this argument you propose and refused to be swayed on, basically says that players aren’t responsible at all for manifesting their own success. And that’s simply not the case.

  45. 813bucboi Says:

    Coach them up to either put them in position to succeed in order to get the most out of their talent

    ^^BINGO^^

    VHG and ryan smith are man press CB’s……what smitty is doing to them is the equivalent to drafting Winston and having him run RPO’s……lol….and then complaining that Winston is a bust because he isn’t fast enough to turn the corner or out run defenders…….lol….

    its the equivalent to having Dotson play LT…..we all saw what a disaster that was……

    its like having tom brady going out for a pass….lol….the best QB in NFL history running routes catching passes, instead of letting him do what he does best…..

    #NOEXCUSESIN2018!!!!!….GO BUCS!!!!!

  46. Joe Says:

    Ryan Smith 100% “progressed” during the course of last season. His play, his coverage – and his confidence in particular all increased visibly.

    Guess that’s where you and Joe significantly part ways. Smith shouldn’t have been on the field last year and Joe saw no improvement but that’s how garbage the Bucs’ depth at corner was.

    If Smith improved as you say, why does it look like the Bucs are trying to replace him? Why would the Bucs want to replace a young corner who improved as much as you say?

    Dude – both your co-workers (other Joe and Irv) are even laughing at you regarding this crazy take. Time to reassess the idea of pushing this odd narrative in EVERY SINGLE CB article from now until September…

    So Joe has to lick his finger and stick it out the window to see where the wind is blowing before offering an opinion? Again, the easiest — and weakest — thing in the world is to develop an opinion not based on what your head says or evidence before you, but what other people might say. That’s ethically if not morally bankrupt. Let them laugh all day long. Don’t care.

    Joe REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY wants the Bucs and their defensive coaches to prove him wrong — if they roll the dice on a corner at No. 7.

    Joe is not a cheerleader and if Joe was worried about having popular opinions, he’d run a daily poll and base his opinions on the poll. That would be pretty damned lame, wouldn’t it?

  47. Joe Says:

    Who’s to say that Banks wasn’t the cause of his own downfall?

    Perhaps. Again, Joe is a big coaches guy and doesn’t believe in coincidences. Banks was a rising young player — until Lovie came on board. Was never the same.

    Hell, Banks hadn’t even played in a game for Lovie and Lovie was doing his best to run him out of town — for Mike freaking Jenkins!

  48. Bucsfanman Says:

    Blake- I don’t disagree with picking players. I just have ZERO confidence in our defensive coaching staff.
    With, hopefully and finally, some defensive line pressure we’ll be able to better assess these guys. One way or another they will not be able to avoid addressing their issues at DB.

  49. Blake_Bucsfan Says:

    To be fair to Ryan Smith, he went from looking like gutter trash in the preseason, to not being a major liability until he was put into the unfortunate situation of being responsible for covering Julio Jones 1 on 1.

    So I would have to agree with Pickgrin that there was indeed at least a marginal level of development in the case of Ryan Smith.

  50. R.O. Says:

    Joe #2.. Again your logic regarding not drafting Top Tier CB talent is flawed. As well as your continued suggestion the team should reach for need if they stay @ 7.

  51. StPeteBucsFan Says:

    NO! NO! A 1000X NO!

    This kid is fast and agile….he played for a bigtime program against solid competition…THAT’S IT! He is NOT a shutdown corner especially in our division. He could become as good as Brent Grimes and that’s fine…but not at @7!!!!

    Patrick Petersen is 30 lbs heavier…three full inches taller…and he runs just as fast as Ward. That’s what a 5th overall pick looks like at DB. Not just another faster Vernon Hargreaves!!! Not at SEVEN!!!!

  52. 813bucboi Says:

    what do you huys call improvement?……

    ryan smith went from not touching the field to being roasted, burnt and turned around while he was on the field…..

    I guess that’s improvement…..lol…..

    #NOEXCUSESIN2018!!!!!….GO BUCS!!!!!

  53. NFLNut Says:

    **********

    Great back and forth in this thread!

    I will say I agree with some of Joe’s points and disagree with others.

    I do feel this coaching staff has been horrendous in coaching up their DB’s.

    I do not however feel the coaching staff is desperate to replace Ryan Smith as they didn’t sign a single new CB in the offseason AND didn’t even bring back Robert McClain … those two facts actually seem to point to the Bucs coaching staff believing in Ryan Smith … which could be a horrible mistake!

    Drafting Denzel Ward at #7 also scares me … I’m not sure he’s worth the #7 pick and I’m not sure the Bucs coaching staff will be good for him, though on the flip side I do think Grimes would be a good mentor and that Ward would be an upgrade over Hargreaves, so …

    However, I’ll say it again … not all rookies need a great deal of coaching or need to be coached up. Quenton Nelson and Minkah Fitzpatrick are two non-RBs that I feel don’t need much coaching and are ready to be stars and leaders from day 1, and Minkah is a hybrid CB/S so I’d rather the Bucs draft him than Denzel Ward if they decide to pick between the two.

    **********

  54. StPeteBucsFan Says:

    RE:Coaches failing to develop DBs.

    Sorry Joe first off I think your sample base is waaaay to small.

    Secondly I agree with Pickgrin that while the Bucs made a mistake moving Smith to safety thereby wasting his rookie season…once they moved him back to CB I thought like Pickgrin that he showed improvement. He is 2″ and 20lbs heavier than Ward and the only DB with some size.

    So three guys…one is actually improving after coming to us from a backwater school and misused his first year….Javien Elliott? Really? I suspect he doesn’t have any talent to develop which leaves VHG. He was drafted to high for his skill set and something clearly happened to his head between season one and two. Let’s see what he does this year. I do not see where coaches could have made a giant difference in any of these three and it’s ONLY three players!!!

  55. Pickgrin Says:

    Blake Says:
    “Ryan Smith, he went from looking like gutter trash in the preseason, to not being a major liability”

    Yes – that’s pretty much exactly the way to describe Ryan Smith’s “progress”.
    But indeed it was progress which is the whole point. He was a 4th rd pick playing his 1st year of CB in the NFL. To expect more is totally unrealistic as is expecting ANYTHING from UDFA Elliot.

    Bucs coaches are 0-1 with “developing” CB “talent” if you are truly trying to keep score – and its more likely than not that VH3’s struggles last year were mostly on Hargreaves himself – not because he wasn’t getting the proper coaching. Vernon has the intangibles (albeit a step slow) and the athletic/ball skills ability to succeed in this league.

    Licht says players “bust” 90% of the time due to issues “above the neck”. I imagine that relates to a season as well as it does a career and that Vernon does NOT fall into the 10% category.

    If I had to bet one way or the other – I would put my $ on Hargreaves having a nice “turnaround” year in 2018. Not exactly sure what that will look like – but even if its at Nickle corner – I think Vernon will have a positive impact on this season and make some nice plays that will (at least partially) renew faith that he can “ball” at this level.

  56. Pickgrin Says:

    Licht will almost certainly be drafting a CB early with the intention of him at least competing for the starting outside job.

    So we probably won’t be able to see if it was the case or not – but I’m pretty sure that if Grimes, Smith and Hargreaves were our 3 starting CBs in 2018 – that they would all look a hell of a lot better in 2018 – individually and as a group – due to the 4 solid FA additions on the Dline and the return of Noah Spence.

  57. Bob in Valrico Says:

    @Blake
    One look at Minkah Kelly, and you would know why I couldn’t get her name out of my head. And what I am looking for is a more well rounded player that can help the team in many ways more like a Ronde than VH3. Fitzpatrick can blitz and has
    9 INT’s, some returned for touchdowns. Ramsey was more successful in the NFL in IMO because he has a more well rounded game than a VH3 or an Eli Apple who both struggled and can step in and be a difference maker right away, which I believe Fitzpatrick can be. You may slot him as hybrid safety but he has played slot and outside corner as well. I have read a good analysis that Fitzpatrick has fluid hips and could be a good corner in this league eventhough he thinks his best position is slot corner.
    Got a question for you though did INT’s or pass defenses contribute the most
    our five game winning streak in 2016?

  58. Bob in Valrico Says:

    pewter report has a good analysis in cover three on both Ward and Fitzpatrick
    for anybody that is interested.

  59. BucEmUp Says:

    Everyone defending Mike Smith is gonna scratching their heads wondering why jpp didn’t make the defense better

  60. Blake_Bucsfan Says:

    @Bob in Valrico

    Oh you mean that complete fluke of a win streak where we beat teams battling injury, when Conte and Tandy played better than they ever had before and haven’t come close to since? Is that the win streak you’re talking about?

    Look man, I’m not saying that Fitzpatrick isn’t talented, but his best positions are Free Safety and Slot corner, which are not even close to being our biggest needs in the Secondary. As for pewter report, I like those guys, but forgive me for realizing that they are more journalists than talent scouts. Even Trevor who is supposed to be their main film breakdown guy, is consistently wrong.

    Case and point, Trevor was very down on Beckwith as a prospect, couldn’t understand why Licht had traded up for him, and thought his weaknesses would be exploited on a regular basis. He was of course dead wrong. Trevor knows more than the average fan, but a scout he is not.

    As for your picks argument, look, all turnovers are great, but they are inherently dependent upon the offense making a mistake and the defense getting lucky.

    Give me a Corner who can stick with his man stride for stride, with a great sense of timing for going up and swatting passes away consistently over a guy who gets the occasional interception but will get burnt for Touchdowns.

    I watched all the free footage there was to watch of Ward on youtube and came away extremely impressed by his athleticism and skill set, much more so than I ever was watching Hargreaves college reel. I think he’s more than capable of being a very good corner in this league providing he continues to stay healthy.

  61. Wausa Says:

    Everyone on defense looks awful when you are ranked last in 3rd down defense, sacks and TOTAL DEFENSE.

  62. hoover923 Says:

    Joe Sez:

    It seems Joe is the only one who has balls to call it like he sees it.

    Hahahahahahaha… THE ONLY ONE!

    Delusional. You might be foolish enough to be so certain about an opinion without sufficient evidence… Let me know when there’s young talent at CB. Don’t give me a UDFA, a 4th round pick, and one overrated 1st round shrimp with average speed. You keep digging in, but you’re not convincing anyone, because you’re wrong. Period.

    See I just called it like I see it. So you’re not the only one.

  63. Bucsfanman Says:

    Wausa- It could not have been said any better!

  64. Defense Rules Says:

    @Joe … “Joe is not suggesting the Bucs do not need corners. Just that with the coaches the Bucs currently have, those corners better be veterans.”

    I’ll second that Joe. Now would you please tell Licht.

  65. Joe Says:

    Delusional. You might be foolish enough to be so certain about an opinion without sufficient evidence… Let me know when there’s young talent at CB. Don’t give me a UDFA, a 4th round pick, and one overrated 1st round shrimp with average speed. You keep digging in, but you’re not convincing anyone, because you’re wrong. Period.

    Well, Joe will let you in on an inside secret.

    If Joe is way off base about something, he will likely get an email/text from the Bucs. If whatever Joe is writing about is really, really off and puts someone in a bad light, Joe might get multiple communications telling him very directly he’s full of it and to stand down.

    And Joe is very appreciative of this because at the end of the day, Joe wants to be right. In fact, Joe got one of these nastygrams last Friday — at 7:30 a.m. Joe had his @ss chewed for something he had wrong.

    To date, despite multiple stories and multiple references on Ira’s pods, Joe’s suggestion that rookie corners the past two years have not been developed has not been corrected by anyone at One Buc Palace. No one.

    So if Joe was truly dead wrong on this subject as you claim he is, it is very, very interesting to Joe that no one at One Buc Palace has told Joe he’s off his rocker on this subject when Joe will hear back from the Bucs on just minor stuff.

    And a dozen or so folks there all the way to the very top have Joe’s cell number.

    Hell, Joe just back from One Buc Palace and personally chatted with a couple of suits. This subject about developing corners never came up.

  66. hoover923 Says:

    Joe Says:

    To date, despite multiple stories and multiple references on Ira’s pods, Joe’s suggestion that rookie corners the past two years have not been developed has not been corrected by anyone at One Buc Palace. No one.

    Well Joe, if it were as bad as you say, they would’ve canned either Maxie or Hoke, or both… Or at least they should have. Has Joe directly questioned anyone at OBP about the coaching the young corners are receiving? That might be helpful.

    I recall when Lovie had a 3 headed monster of DB coaching (one was his son, the other was a guy who noone else in the NFL wanted to hire, and the other was just fired by the Bills this offseason, I believe)… we had leakage from OBP about the chaos with the DB coaching and communication. We had some players who vented frustrations… it leaked. I’ve heard no such leaks out of the current regime. Have you? Have you had players or anyone in the organization indicate dissatisfaction with the DB coaching situation?

    In the end, what we have is Eliot, who was a walk on at FSU and a UDFA (wasn’t even signed as a priority UDFA)… So you can’t count Eliot as having underachieved due to coaching. We have no reason to expect him to be anything more than he is. And we have Ryan Smith, who was in his first full year as a CB in the NFL. He was considered a very raw prospect coming out of a small school. So, any complaints about him can’t necessarily be chalked up to coaching either. So, you have one guy, and only one guy — Hargreaves — who could be used as a case study. Go back to the scouting reports prior to that draft. There were plenty of doubts about Hargreaves. If you wanna pin that one on somebody, it should be on the front office.

    I win. You have no facts, and no reasoning to support your conclusion. Might make more sense to see what happens when they get some actual talent to work with. I would love to see 2 young corners come in and play well.

  67. Joe Says:

    Has Joe directly questioned anyone at OBP about the coaching the young corners are receiving? That might be helpful.

    One Buc has been closed since the regular season ended. No coaches or defensive players were made available today.

    And on the record, Joe doesn’t expect anyone to suggest their coach stinks.

    I win. You have no facts, and no reasoning to support your conclusion.

    If you can show Joe where the three corners in question improved, you will then win.

    “Facts?” It’s called results and scoreboard my friend.

    I’ve heard no such leaks out of the current regime.

    You haven’t been paying attention then. Does the word “communication” ring a bell?

    If Joe wanted to out a defensive back, he’d blow the guy’s cover with confidential information that is VERY damning about “communication” and a very well-known defender. Joe’s not a backstabber though.

  68. Bob in Valrico Says:

    @ blake
    Yes I am Blake and their defense ,mostly Tandy’s should not be discounted.
    Don’t recall the exact number of INT’s we had in the super bowl but there is no denying INT’s supplement a sluggish offense and can put a win in the column.
    Ward has great athleticism but he plays a lot with his back to the QB mostly
    which limits his ability to see the ball in time to make Int’s. I expect more than one a year , will agree that he plays the game the way a short corner should
    in one way, when your short and also have short arms you probably aren’t going to a outleap the bigger receivers in our division so you either have to play the ball or go up through the receivers hands as they come down.
    Short of that defender with longer arms

  69. Blake_Bucsfan Says:

    You seem to have missed my point. That streak was a fluke. Tandy and Conte will never play at that level again.

    And Ward’s arms are the same exactly length as Marshon Lattimore’s.

    Also, you say one INT a year won’t do it, yet you’ve already been informed that Ramsey himself averaged 1 a year. Btw both of Ward’s picks came last year when he was the Buckeyes #1 corner.

  70. Blake_Bucsfan Says:

    Btw, another argument that the amount of picks a Corner gets in his college career is no clear indicator of success, Vernon Hargreaves had 10 picks in his 3 years at Florida. 1 more pick than your beloved Minkah Kelly…

  71. Bob in Valrico Says:

    Now another concern is his weight that could prove to be a disadvantage
    is his weight.Grimes succeeds with similar skills but I have seen him being easily
    pushed off the play by a bigger receiver.
    Now will Fitzpatrick be a outside corner, who can say where Licht will slot him.
    Personally I would agree that he may end up being a safety rather outside corner.
    I see it as a problem that we can’t take what I see as the best all round DB
    because we have Hargreaves at slot and Evans at free safety. Evans needs to take better angles at in coverage and in run support at times. I have seen him circle back on a receiver and in run support to get a better angle.

  72. Bob in Valrico Says:

    You may see it as a fluke , but can you truthfully say that Tandy didn’t do his homework and was prepared to jump routes because he studied tendencies and was properly prepared.

  73. Blake_Bucsfan Says:

    I can truthfully say it was a classic case of a career back-up/ special teams player suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere, playing better than he ever had in his entire career, and then promptly regressing back to his mean level of play.

    Classic example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2dgy9MoQjE

    Week 17, 2011 Packers vs Lions. Aaron Rodgers was sitting out the game with the sniffles, career Back-up QB Matt Flynn proceeds to have the game of his life. He completed 31-44 passing attempts for 480 yards and 6 TD’s and successfully out-dueled the up and coming 2nd year signal caller Matt Stafford.

    Flynn, who must have had one heck of an agent, turned that singular performance into a 3 year 26 million dollar deal with the Seahawks the following offseason. And he never came close to playing even half as good again for the rest of his career.

    Tandy may have studied hard, and that may have contributed to the level he was playing at to close out the 2017 season, excluding the 2nd game versus NO and the Dallas game when he and the whole defense choked away the Playoffs. But make no mistake, it was merely a flash in the pan. All sizzle no steak.

  74. Bob in Valrico Says:

    Can’t agree with that either Blake
    Jameis definately made the defenses job much harder in those games. He had
    three picks and a lost fumble in one game ,believe it was Dallas. And then 2 against NO. Neither offense or defense were solely responsible for the loss.

  75. Blake_Bucsfan Says:

    Jameis had given the team the lead in the 4th quarter of both games.

    And between the 2 games the defense gave up 57 points and 866 yards, of which 308 yards were given up on the ground.

    But again you managed to miss my entire main point. Anyway, Denzel Ward is the best Corner in this draft despite his size. If the big 3 (Chubb, Barkley, and Nelson) are gone and we can’t manage to make a trade down, Ward should be the pick.

  76. hoover923 Says:

    Joe conveniently ignores the fact that you can’t get blood from a stone. Completely refuses to consider the point about lacking talent to work with… because it blows his argument out of the water.

    Seriously, if you’ve heard confidentially that there’s something screwed up with the coaching and/or communication you should share it… You don’t have to bust anyone’s cover.

    Joe: “If you can show Joe where the three corners in question improved, you will then win.” See blood from stone comment above. You expect the coaches to work magic just like all the Warhop haters did after his first year… and then remarkably the OL improved when they put some talent there. Imagine that!

    Joe: ““Facts?” It’s called results and scoreboard my friend.” Lots of things contribute to the scoreboard. Now you’re just running diversions… must watch a lot of Sean Hannity.

    You still have presented ZERO facts except to repeat “show me where they improved”… That’s all you’ve got… I have repeatedly addressed this — again, blood from a stone.

    If you’ve observed bad coaching on the practice field, or have been told confidentially from anyone in the organization that the coaching of young DBs is questionable in any way, please do share. It would lend your argument credibility that it currently lacks.

 

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