What If The Bucs Do Nothing On The Edge?
March 20th, 2015
It doesn’t happen often, but there is dissent at JoeBucsFan.com world headquarters.
Beer bottles are being broken. Shot glasses are cracking from intense slamming.
One “Joe” is confident the Bucs should and will draft an edge rusher after selecting Jameis Winston with the No. 1 overall pick, maybe even trading up to get that defensive end. The other “Joe” thinks the team would be out of its freakin’ mind to not make its second pick an offensive linemen, preferably one with the talent to become a starting left tackle.
It’s a debate that will rage on.
For this post, let’s assume Tampa Bay does not address right defensive end and stays with the status quo at DE.
Here’s the list:
T.J. Fatinikun – Midseason pickup who received widespread praise for his limited snaps, including from former Bucs defensive end Steve White, who was a Bucs coaching intern last. Fatinikun, 23, recorded half a sack.
William Gholston – Also, 23, Gholston had two sacks last year, his second season. Can he play the right side? Gholston also has been praised for his work ethic after being drafted in the fifth round in 2013.
Jacquies Smith – The 25-year-old September signing by Jason Licht was a shining light on a dark season. He largely played on the left edge, and a little on the right. He finished with 6.5 sacks in seven starts.
Larry English – The renowned Chargers bust of the 2009 NFL Draft, English was re-signed this offseason, which lets you know Lovie Smith liked his effort and film. Steve White liked some of English’s flashes, too. English at least played like he had a pulse as he battled injuries, unlike Michael Johnson.
Henry Melton – Melton, a former college running back before Lovie Smith turned him into a Pro Bowl defensive tackle, did some edge rushing last year in Dallas. He’s got nasty get-off when he’s healthy.
Lawrence Sidbury – The 29-year-old career backup is liked at One Buc Palace. Remember, Licht sang the Sidbury blues in late December.
George Uko – No significant NFL experience. More of a training camp body at this point.
What’s certain is that finding a rotation with this cast would be more productive than ghostly and ghastly Michael Johnson, who did little more than suck away experience from young players last season.
Joe’s not advocating the Bucs pass on improving their DEs, but it’s not unthinkable that they roll with what they have, assuming this group progresses through OTAs and stays healthy.
March 20th, 2015 at 10:50 am
If Lael Collins or Peat isnt there, trade down our 2nd, then go after Nate Orchard and Ali Marpet! A Safety after that unless a cant miss O lineman is still there.
March 20th, 2015 at 10:50 am
I don’t know why Everyone is so worried About DE, This time last year we had Adrian Clayborn and Micheal Johnson as starters. The Bucs are light years ahead of where they were last year!!!
and don’t worry about the Left Tackle spot. Lovie will have a top 5 pick in the 2016 draft!!!
March 20th, 2015 at 10:51 am
correction:
Adrian Clayborn ( bust of the 2011 draft )
March 20th, 2015 at 10:53 am
Ja Smith and gholston. Now go out and sign mike Sam. He too will “suck away experience from young players”. Ha couldn’t help myself.
March 20th, 2015 at 10:54 am
STOP WASTING TIME L&L….OSI IS STILL AVAILABLE!!
March 20th, 2015 at 10:55 am
Joe, we signed a new punter. This is much bigger news than a pass rusher or rookie quarterback
March 20th, 2015 at 10:57 am
MadMax — OSI is just a name of the past now. he can’t play or he would have been signed. can’t keep Paying guys and Praying they revert to old form or suddenly get it. sorry but I’d rather take my chance with a good young prospect. good teams find prospects and draft well bad teams sign leftovers and prayers.
March 20th, 2015 at 10:58 am
That’s honestly my mindframe. I agree with the Buc Realist outside of the extremely pessimistic view on our upcoming season. Screw DE this year because I wanna see what these guys can do before we write them off. If we draft one in the 2nd he better be a true value pick.
Smith basically would have paced for like 15 sacks in a full season of starts which would be the best we’ve ever had.
Fanikum & Golston are only 23 and coming into their 3rd years which is usually a big year for lineman or DEs to make a jump.
We also have really good DTs that can generate pressure in Melton/MCoy/McDonald.
I would much rather get a potential franchise LT if available in the 2nd; and then draft a RG in the 3rd.
We KNOW the O-line is the major team weakness with confidence. I don’t feel as confident saying we KNOW other positions are a weakness to the same degree.
March 20th, 2015 at 11:00 am
I’m not too worried about the DE spots. I would like to have JJ Watt, but TJ, Smith, Gholston and English all have NFL game experience. I still think they will sign a veteran, who may be trying to squeeze another year out and draft a guy somewhere in the draft.
As far as LT, we don’t even have a warm body.
No brainer. We need a LT more than a DE.
March 20th, 2015 at 11:00 am
Honestly think for a second. If Jaquis Smith literally plays as well as last year; we have our double digit sack artists. If either Fanikum or Golston develop into a solid rusher; we have our complimentary RDE. To go with one of the best groups of DT. We potentaily have the best D-line we’ve had in a long long time
March 20th, 2015 at 11:06 am
I meant to say best we’ve had since Rice* about those 15 sacks
March 20th, 2015 at 11:06 am
OSI? some of you seriously need help….even if osi was in his prime he isn’t worth a contract and the money he got, dude got double digit sacks only 3 times in his career…..just to put it in perspective simeon rice 8 double digit sacks but I guess for some reason osi looked like a star on a worse defense than the bucs had last year lol nah you guys were just joking around I get it hahaha very funny
March 20th, 2015 at 11:07 am
I just found out that every single player with the exception of one on the packers is home grown talent. Wow, now Ted Thompson is the REAL DEAL!
March 20th, 2015 at 11:08 am
Lord Cornelius Says:
March 20th, 2015 at 11:00 am
Honestly think for a second. If Jaquis Smith literally plays as well as last year; we have our double digit sack artists. If either Fanikum or Golston develop into a solid rusher; we have our complimentary RDE. To go with one of the best groups of DT. We potentaily have the best D-line we’ve had in a long long time
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Yummy, delicious Kool Aid. Tastes nice doesn’t it? Best in a long, long time? Ugh….
March 20th, 2015 at 11:14 am
Apparently, it was the other Joe that wrote this article…
March 20th, 2015 at 11:15 am
Getting rid of Johnson was addition by subtraction. Smith, Fatinikun, Gholston, English, etc. have a chance to progress in their second season in the same defense. Just the fact that the current DEs on the roster can build off of last year should result in more production. It’s not looking as bad as it seems and more help is likely coming via the draft.
March 20th, 2015 at 11:18 am
I didnt say Osi is dominant, we just need help at DE, have some money to go after him (not overpay him) and you must be missing that. What FA DE players are still there?…..if you care to contribute!
March 20th, 2015 at 11:21 am
Leonard Williams. You know Lovie would make that call, crazy Bucs wouldn’t go QB but Leonard Williams is a early first round pick…very early. He is close to a sure thing faced a lot a adversity growing up and choose the right road.
March 20th, 2015 at 11:23 am
George Selvie to the Giants. 1 yr 1.4m. Didn’t he play for lovie? What happened to all the love players have for lovie? I guess only his secondary really loves him. Hey at least we got Chris cunnte YEY!
March 20th, 2015 at 11:32 am
@bucrightoff
Yes it’s extreme optimism but it’s all I can go with right now. I was excited last year because of hope in Michael Johnson & Clayborn but they were dissapointments; and were outplayed by the guys starting this year. Outside of that year I never felt confident about the D-line going into the season besides McCoy.
But this year feels different. McCoy & McDonald are proven effective DTs. Melton is a proven player with much better history than Michael Johnson. Smith is coming off one of the better DE performances we’ve had since Bennet.
I just look at it as Smith being a huge upgrade over Johnson; and Melton being an upgrade over Clayborn for what he brings to the table.
Also, I’m looking up some stats that are interesting and will give hope. I’m telling you I will have myself believing we are SB bound by the time week 1 comes haha
March 20th, 2015 at 11:33 am
I can’t find the quote, but I think it was Lovie that said:
I’m confident that we’ll add another DE or 2 before the season starts.
March 20th, 2015 at 11:38 am
That rotation will be difficult to watch.
March 20th, 2015 at 11:39 am
It’s like this in order of importance #1 QB #2 LT then you can have your #3 on a DE the Oline needs way more help than the d line
March 20th, 2015 at 11:39 am
time to move mccoy over since we have so much depth at defensive tackle.
March 20th, 2015 at 11:44 am
Bucs did the right thing not singing Hardy, theres a lot of bad PR coming from Dallas. Even the Mayor said it was not good. This is the main reason I think well pass on Winston. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/03/20/dallas-mayor-calls-signing-of-greg-hardy-a-shot-in-the-gut/
March 20th, 2015 at 11:47 am
I think the answer to your question will have to be made before all the players available are known. Impossible…..absolutely…..but true.
After the draft, teams that were able to acquire young, cheaper talent on the offensive line, will jettison older, higher priced players. Sound reasonable? It is…..EXCEPT. Except last year we thought the same thing and no one was let go. The Bucs were left hanging on a cliff edge with nowhere to go but down.
Let’s hope things get back to normal this year and that top, older players become available. But we can’t count on it, so we have to get it all in the draft.
To make that happen, the Bucs may trade Glennon and our safety Goldson to pick up a couple more draft picks. That safety trade may be impossible, but they can try. Especially if the Bucs trade him for a specific offensive lineman or defensive end that has about the same salary implications.
March 20th, 2015 at 11:51 am
Alright guys ready for some positive stats that should give you hope?
Going into the bye; the Bucs had 9 sacks in 6 games; with 5 of them coming from our one win against the Steelers. We only had one other multiple sack day (2 against the Rams) and 2 games with zero sacks.
After the bye; the bucs had 27 sacks in 10 games. They had double digit sacks in 7 of those 10 games.
Before the bye; the Bucs gave up an average of 32 points per game; with 3 pitiful performances allowing 37 or more points.
After the bye; the Bucs gave up an average of 18.6 points per game. The most points allowed were 34 and 27. Every other game the Bucs d held the other team to 22 or less points (averaging only 15.6 points per game given up).
This team really was improving on defense hardcore.. You just couldn’t tell because the QB play was so terrible and we kept losing close games and didn’t have an o-coordinator. The fact that we had such a terrible offense and weren’t getting blown out every week is an accomplishment in itself.
March 20th, 2015 at 11:56 am
Even though the Bucs need a better pass rush, and have for years, the need at OL is much greater. The Bucs are going to draft a QB with the first overall pick and they can’t let an investment like that get killed behind a horrible offensive line. Waiting until the late round to try and find offensive linemen is why this organization is in such a putrid state.
March 20th, 2015 at 11:59 am
@Lord, NICE!! Thanks for pointing that out.
March 20th, 2015 at 12:01 pm
I said when they signed him, bet Melton plays a lot of DE here. That was the conversation they had with Rod Marinelli- ” you played him at DE occasionally- how’d he do? Can he do it full time?”
They already like McDonald at nose tackle. Not many Free agent DEs- guess Lovie converts Melton for the 2nd time.
Can’t be worse than the guys we’ve had playing there!! Melton has always been a work horse.
No matter- this draft, with a rookie QB, you draft O-linemen with the second and third pick. If the kid gets shell shocked this year- he may never recover(Carr with Texas, Swafford with Detroit)
Aren’t winning this year with a rookie QB anyway- draft DEs next year, after our young guys show what they’ve got
March 20th, 2015 at 12:02 pm
Stafford- damn phone
March 20th, 2015 at 12:08 pm
There are still a few free agent offensive lineman who can come in and start…other than maybe old man Freeney, there is nobody that can be a productive 4-3 edge rusher. We have to sign a lineman.
March 20th, 2015 at 12:08 pm
Guys these numbers are truly blowing my mind lol.
Do you realize that the Bucs defense; after the bye week and compared to season averages; would have ranked 6th in the league on average points allowed?
In 8 of our last 10 games, the bucs gave up an average of 15.6 points! 15.6! That literally would put us at #1 in the league! Sure we didn’t do it over the whole season; but doing that in the entire 2nd half; with the offense we had; is truly amazing. Guys need to buy into Lovie Smith & Frasier more. They know what they are doing defensively.
Now I really want to go QB-OL-OL. Defense shouldn’t be a problem; but could be elite with a little improvement.
March 20th, 2015 at 12:24 pm
We have to take a DE after we draft Jameis. DE is top heavy this year whereas we can draft quality olinemen in the 3rd 4th and even 5th rounds. Plus we need a back up plan at mike.
March 20th, 2015 at 12:28 pm
@ Lord Cornelius
Thank you for those amazing stats. I know the Bucs defense was improving but those stats are mind blowing. Shows Lovie Smith knows what he is doing.
IMO, Lovie drafts Mariota #1 and next 2 picks are offensive linemen. He can draft a pass rusher in the 4t-5th round. Let Mariota learn behind Glennon, actually have some decent blocking and FINALLY have a OC that knows what he is doing.
DRAFT DAY CAN’T COME SOON ENOUGH!
#MariotaorBUST
March 20th, 2015 at 12:40 pm
if you look at the game averages for the last 8 games it was more of 21 points. as those defensive stats do not show other teams scoring special teams and pick 6’s. thank goodness that Washington imploded with a 7 point game and Detroit and Greenbay called of the dogs early!!
March 20th, 2015 at 12:47 pm
Without pressure on the QB this defense will be picked apart on a regular basis… Like last year… And the season before… And the season before that…
March 20th, 2015 at 12:59 pm
So many holes to fill, so few draft picks… Bruce Allen and the Popstar left the cupboards very bare.
If the Bucs select a QB, I hope they are wise enough and patient enough to sit him on the bench until the Offensive Line is serviceable (which may take 2-3 off seasons.)
March 20th, 2015 at 12:59 pm
If we don’t have a DE after waiver wire, then we draft: Winston, OT, DE, OG, and then best available.
March 20th, 2015 at 1:01 pm
If we don’t have a DE after FA, then we draft: Winston, OT, DE, OG, and then best available.
March 20th, 2015 at 1:14 pm
I agree with the “other Joe” who thinks Bucs are out of their frickin minds if they don’t concentrate on fixing the OLine.
Jacqueis Smith proved on the field last year that he is the real deal. His #s projected to playing full time in 16 games would have resulted in at least 12 or 13 sacks. And he was getting continuous pressure and setting up other DLine players for sacks. Smith was arguably our best DLineman last year when he was on the field just from watching the results. Dude has a relentless motor and was very impressive.
We might have to wait another year to to either draft or get a stud Free Agent DE.
If the OLine doesn’t get upgraded and fixed in a major way this offseason – then the Bucs are going to have a much worse record than if they concentrate on OLine and roll with what they have at DE.
OLine HAS to be the priority in this draft after Winston. I would be very happy to see picks 2, 3 and one of the 5th round picks all go to talented OLine prospects in 2015 draft.
March 20th, 2015 at 1:22 pm
The defense will not function with the current personnel. Predictable scheme with mediocre DBs and no edge rush = bad.
March 20th, 2015 at 1:26 pm
That’s a tough one to make a call on.
The Bucs are several years away from making a run, so it would make sense to go OL with that second rd. pick and then look to next year’s FA and draft for that final edge rusher piece when you make your run.
One of those other guys could possibly emerge too.
That said, I’m hoping for a DE in round 2. Much more exciting.
March 20th, 2015 at 1:27 pm
OK guys I screwed up my #s haha. It was actually 20.6 points per game allowed after the bye; and 18.1 in 8 of those 10 games
Still that’d have us tied with the Bills at 4th in the league in points per game allowed average.
The 20.6 per game allowed after the bye week would have us at 9th in the league in points per game allowed average. So essentialy we were a bordline top 10 defense after the bye last year.
I remain very optimistic based on the teams’ 2nd half.
And @ Buc Realist – the points allowed for those 8 games were:
19,22,7,21,14,19,20,23 which is incredibly solid in todays NFL.
Hell, that 19 point game went to OT and we’d only given up 13 in 4 quarters.
This all despite HORRIBLE offensive play.
March 20th, 2015 at 1:31 pm
@Eric I think the Packer secret is consistency at coaching.
March 20th, 2015 at 2:52 pm
If Lovie wants to run the Tampa 2 he has to find a really good pass rusher. And you MUST find Gerold McCoy some much needed help. He can’t do it all.
He can only do so much when he is doubled and sometimes tripled teamed. If we don’t get him some help and as hard as the man play’s without help he will get hurt and then what ?
March 20th, 2015 at 6:09 pm
J. Smith 6.5 sacks in seven starts. There is our edge rusher. William Gholston, needs for opportunity. I like English too. I am more concerned about our O-line than anything at this point, but one solid edge rusher should be drafted. Didn’t Bruce Carter have his hand in the first some last year as well?
March 20th, 2015 at 6:14 pm
Capt.Tim Says:
March 20th, 2015 at 12:01 pmNo matter- this draft, with a rookie QB, you draft O-linemen with the second and third pick. If the kid gets shell shocked this year- he may never recover(Carr with Texas, Swafford with Detroit)
No matter who they draft Glennon should start. Avoid the “Shell Shock” and see what Glennon does in an actual real NFL offense. Something we haven’t had in 12 years.
March 20th, 2015 at 7:36 pm
We should try to trade for oliver vernon the dolphins drafted jordan and never played him so it shouldnt take much to get vernon expecually when hes goin into contract year
March 20th, 2015 at 7:48 pm
Coach em up! If we played smith the whole year he would have been our ten sack guy. Lovey will draft a defensive end at some point.
Thus far we added some secondary help, some help at lb and d-line.
Oh btw if they can get rivers and some picks then make the deal!
March 20th, 2015 at 10:54 pm
WS99 Says:
He too will “suck away experience from young players”. Ha couldn’t help myself.
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Know a lot about sucking huh?
March 21st, 2015 at 12:28 am
Gholston in his first season got three sacks in no time. Last year he was dinged up but played anyway. Healthy this year and given the opportunity to start, he will do GREAT! Mariota in the first round and a tackle in the second round and a Guard in the third, and a DE with the second third for Glennon, a great special teams returner in the fourth, and Garcia-a Guard/Center in the 5th, a large RB in the sixth, and a new punter in the seventh. Then sign Tebo, as your mobile QB to start til the OL gels. It is a recipe for an exciting year!
March 21st, 2015 at 7:56 am
Lol. I can see why so many make fun of our fan base. We have nothing but back ups and practice squad guys there and many are acting like we are fine at that position. SMH!